Author Topic: Just what most of us thought  (Read 14357 times)

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Offline vesta111

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Just what most of us thought
« on: November 14, 2010, 09:38:42 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40178937/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times

Meat Ball Annie, the woman that made lamp shades of prisoners tattoos lived for 30 years in NYC or so I was told.  WTF good was she to do with helping America unless she was related to some high profile polition here.

We of the next generations of Americans have heard these storys for years.

Understanderable that we wanted the scientists, millitary and  medical personal after the war, but the Evil people that guarded the camps or dropped the gas canisters into the shower rooms , this I cannot understand.

Most of these deamons have died of old age with no repercussions for their deadly deeds.  Those that still live are in their 80 ies, have escaped justice and will die with no sin if they confess to a priest---Yuck---

I wonder about the gay Jews, the Jehovaa Wittnesses, the Gypsys and all that died due to these ideas.---Will they go to Hell and the Monsters that killed them go to heaven for their belief in Jesus.??

 This is the very reason I question Christinity, all people about to die will repent for their sins, but the people that have never heard of Jesus will go to Hell.

I have gotten in allot of trouble for asking these questions to Christian Ministers and Priests. 

How could the Protestants in Germany go to Midnight Mass to celebrate the birth of the Jews and watch as HIS people were taken out ,placed on trains for work camps--so called-- and beaten and shot.





Offline rubliw

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 09:49:05 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40178937/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times

Meat Ball Annie, the woman that made lamp shades of prisoners tattoos lived for 30 years in NYC or so I was told.  WTF good was she to do with helping America unless she was related to some high profile polition here.

We of the next generations of Americans have heard these storys for years.

Understanderable that we wanted the scientists, millitary and  medical personal after the war, but the Evil people that guarded the camps or dropped the gas canisters into the shower rooms , this I cannot understand.

Most of these deamons have died of old age with no repercussions for their deadly deeds.  Those that still live are in their 80 ies, have escaped justice and will die with no sin if they confess to a priest---Yuck---

I wonder about the gay Jews, the Jehovaa Wittnesses, the Gypsys and all that died due to these ideas.---Will they go to Hell and the Monsters that killed them go to heaven for their belief in Jesus.??

 This is the very reason I question Christinity, all people about to die will repent for their sins, but the people that have never heard of Jesus will go to Hell.

I have gotten in allot of trouble for asking these questions to Christian Ministers and Priests.  

How could the Protestants in Germany go to Midnight Mass to celebrate the birth of the Jews and watch as HIS people were taken out ,placed on trains for work camps--so called-- and beaten and shot.


This is an interesting challenge to Christianity.  Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe.  Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance.  Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.

This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it.  We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse.  No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief.  So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.  

So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 09:57:20 AM by rubliw »

Offline vesta111

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 01:36:55 PM »

This is an interesting challenge to Christianity.  Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe.  Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance.  Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.

This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it.  We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse.  No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief.  So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.  

So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?



So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?[quote/]

Where do you get the idea that God insures a just universe? 

Where was the Justice for the Christians that put their lives on the line to hide complete stranger that were Jews from the Government.  They were breaking the law you know, The penalty was death for the intire family man women and children.  These good people died for their beliefs, they were Hero's.

To open a bag of worms here, Christians are willing to die for their faith, [some will].  Christianity is more of a personal faith then most, I was taught to do good for it's own sake and not to gain anything for my self be it fortune or an afterlife.



Now the Muslims, they also will die for their faith but it is conditional on " How many virgins did you say I will get when I die" ? 

Here is something to think about , can you explain the act of baptism to me and why it is so important to the Christian Faith.??

We believe John the Baptist was the Cousin of Jesus, so how and why was he to Baptise a man born without original sin from a mother who was also born without sin.?



Offline rubliw

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 03:14:41 PM »
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?[quote/]

Where do you get the idea that God insures a just universe?  

That is generally a Christian doctrine - God has perfect justice, mercy, etc.  That perfect justice obviously isn't fulfilled in this world, but will be in the next, or so it goes.

And I was really agreeing with you, that it doesn't seem like perfect justice, if murderers are getting into heaven, and mostly good people are (even some of the time) going to hell.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 03:19:51 PM by rubliw »

Offline Carl

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 03:35:17 PM »

This is an interesting challenge to Christianity.  Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe.  Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance. Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it.  We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse.  No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief.  So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.  

So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?



With that you show your complete ignorance of the topic you are trying to discuss and to disparage.
It is a life long of disbelieve that condemns a person to their fate not a single one.

Not going to debate all sects of Chrstianity or beliefs,just my own and that being Salvation once gained through acceptence of Jesus as the Saviour and His willing sacrifice it can not be lost.


Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 03:35:52 PM »
The following is based on my understanding of Christian doctrine.  I am basing my eternal hope on it.

1.  "...man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people... (Hebrews 9:27-28, excerpted)

We are all* going to die.  What we have done with Christ in life will determine our eternal destiny.

++ It will not matter how we died, whether we were murdered, or had cancer, or lived to 107 and just didn't wake up from the afternoon nap.

++ It will not matter if we accepted Christ's salvation in youth, or age, or on death row.

++ What we did in life will not matter-- if we accept salvation.  It may be an indicator, when examining the lives of others, whether it is likely that an individual accepted Christ.  We are not competent to draw definite conclusions on the subject with regard to anyone, though a fair degree of certainty

++ Accepting Christ carries with it repentance of sin and the resolve, with God's help, to turn away from sin.  Such help is always given to those who truly seek it.  It does not make the person perfect; as a dieter will have a piece of cake, so a saved person will have a flash of anger, a moment of lust, a dishonest word, or worse.  It is more likely for the committed Christian to be visibly punished in life for sin, because he is saved in eternity, and because the person in sinning has brought disrepute upon the Name of Jesus.  (You have thought less of Christians because you knew of one who sinned, haven't you?  And have the most public of those-- Swaggart, the Bakkers etc.-- not been publicly shamed and their carefully constructed empires, which served to glorify themselves rather than the Lord, brought to ruin?)

++ Human justice is all about this mortal life.  Perfect justice is all about eternity, to which mortal life is a brief, transient prologue.  The entire focus of the universe, its whole raison d'etre, is the Glory of God. Those who deny God suffermost-- if not here, then hereafter.

++ The moment of belief or repentance is not momentary; the change takes a moment, but lasts a lifetime (however brief the remaining life may be).

++  There is no such thing as a sincere moment of disbelief that condemns.  We are born condemned**, and we either believe at some point during life, or not.

2.  Baptism.  While there are some, indeed whole denominations, that hold to "baptismal regeneration" (the salvific power of the act of being baptized), I'm not one.

++ The baptism of John was a Jewish rite, symbolizing repentance form sin.  In one of the accounts, John, knowing Who he was dealing with, said (paraphrasing), "Lord, You don't need to be baptized by me; rather, it is I who need it from You."  Jesus insisted, prefiguring the day when He would take all the sin of the world upon himself.

++ We are commanded to be baptized as a testimony of our salvation.  It is a simple, easy act of obedience, and symbolizes out desire to obey the Lord in all things from then on.

++ A person who is unbaptizable for any reason is no less saved as a result.

Hope that helps.  I'm always looking into CC, so if you want to discuss further...here I am, more or less.

* Various end-time theologies exist, but I think all of them add up to the fact that the last generation alive on earth will not necessarily die before entering eternity.

**Most of us believe that God in His mercy does not hold infants or mental defectives who cannot comprehend sin accountable for it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 03:38:40 PM by ExGeeEye »
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 06:44:07 PM »
When did Christians claim the universe is perfect?

On the contrary the stated mission of Christianity's namesake was to provide redemption.

Redemption presumes a very imperfect universe as there is no need to redeem that which is already perfect.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rubliw

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 10:42:01 PM »
When did Christians claim the universe is perfect?

On the contrary the stated mission of Christianity's namesake was to provide redemption.

Redemption presumes a very imperfect universe as there is no need to redeem that which is already perfect.

To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just.   That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.

Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all.  Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 10:48:04 PM by rubliw »

Offline Carl

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 04:28:45 AM »
To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just.   That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.

Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all.  Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.


It still shows you have no concept of the Bible or Scripture.

Read Ephesians 2:8,9 and see if you can grasp where your contrived and ignorant view of Salvation is off the tracks.


Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 05:48:00 AM »
To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just.   That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.

Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all.  Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.

In a perfect world everyone would make the perfect decisions and see their lives through in perfection.

But the bible does say people are perfect or live perfectly, it says people get to decide what they want.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 09:49:33 AM »
In a perfect world everyone would make the perfect decisions and see their lives through in perfection.

But the bible does say people are perfect or live perfectly, it says people get to decide what they want.

Right, I think my use of the term "universe" is confusing things.  Christians don't actually think this world is perfectly just, and neither does anyone else that I know of.  That's not what I'm trying to say.  But they do believe its ultimate purpose is perfectly just and that perfect justice (as well as perfect mercy, among other things) will be served to everyone - if not in this life, the next.  They don't believe that perfect justice will always or even ever be apparent in this lifetime.

And the issue is that many principles and facts about Christianity, as well as facts about the natural world, say something about its/God's vision of justice and they seem puzzling.  They often make it seem like God isn't actually perfectly just.   The OP and myself raised a couple of examples, but there are many more.  



« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:51:47 AM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 10:06:10 AM »
Distilled to it's essence the OP is asking why is evil permitted and why is it forgiven?

I must ask: at which point should evil/sin be met with the finality of Divine justice? Should the killer be dealt after the knife has plunged into the victim? In mid-stroke? When he draws the knife from his belt? When he settles his mind on the deed? When he first imagines it?

When?
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Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 11:34:12 AM »
Distilled to it's essence the OP is asking why is evil permitted and why is it forgiven?

I must ask: at which point should evil/sin be met with the finality of Divine justice? Should the killer be dealt after the knife has plunged into the victim? In mid-stroke? When he draws the knife from his belt? When he settles his mind on the deed? When he first imagines it?

When?

Evil/sin was met with the finality of Divine Justice when the sentence of Death was passed upon all mankind, thousand of years ago.  

The sentence of Eternal Death has, by God's Grace and Mercy, been suspended until the end of the mortal era, and furthermore, the penalty has been paid by that same God's own sacrifice.

It is for us as individuals to accept or reject that payment  on our own behalfs, or not.

I am thankful that God will not deal with me according to His Justice, but His Mercy.  In His perfect Justice, I deserve no less than to be struck dead right now, and my soul consigned to Hell on the spot.
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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 12:31:53 PM »
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.

The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.

Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.
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Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 02:49:34 PM »
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.

The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.

Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.

The observable is but a tiny fraction of time and space, and exactly that degree of universal justice should be inferred from it as you can infer a forest from a leaf.

Injustice seems to be permitted only because we are too impatient to see the end.  It is like watching a bank robbery in progress and denouncing the society which has not already arrested, tried, and imprisoned the perpetrators.

It is permitted to take place in the first place for a multitude of reasons, all tending toward the Glory of God, and all having to do with each of us as individuals, and how we respond to God, which in turn will impact our eternal destiny.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 03:12:07 PM »
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.

The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.

Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.

Not so sure I'm really after that... I know most of the standard theodicies.  The one ExGeeEye offers is a version of a skeptical theism class theodicy.  

I guess I was just offering this opinion, and the question at the end was more rhetorical, than it was to demand an actual reply:

Quote
]
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe.  God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible.   If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?

And I'll add another - if this perfect justice is totally bewildering and incomprehensible, how do we even know that it is justice at all?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 03:19:13 PM by rubliw »

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 03:29:02 PM »

And I'll add another - if this perfect justice is totally bewildering and incomprehensible, how do we even know that it is justice at all?
You could no more know Justice than you could know Injustice.

BOTH would require omniscience.

However, IF there was a God and he did create us then obviously we have a "sense" justice.

Would something as clever as a Creator of all Time and Space give us a sense of justice and then set about violating it?

He wouldn't be a creator, he would be a devil. But then where and why the justice we sense?

Justice would be a thing separate from our creator. It would be the thing he holds over our heads like a dastard holding a bottle tauntingly over the head of a hungry infant.

But the nourishment would still be real.

Would even such a devil be subject to that Justice? If not was there ever really such a thing as Justice? There must be because if we say, "the very notion of justice is merely a lie" the mind screams, "That's not fair!"

If there really is Justice it wouldn't matter who created the Christian it only matters who the Christian prays to: his tormenting creator or Justice.
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Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 03:52:10 PM »
Quote
The one ExGeeEye offers is a version of a skeptical theism class theodicy.


I'm trying to figure out where the ideal of skepticism has anything to do with anything I've posted.

Seems to me someone arguing against my beliefs would point out excessive credulity rather than skepticism-- seeing that I am relying on the unseen and unknown to cope with the seen and known.
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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2010, 04:16:36 PM »


I'm trying to figure out where the ideal of skepticism has anything to do with anything I've posted.

Seems to me someone arguing against my beliefs would point out excessive credulity rather than skepticism-- seeing that I am relying on the unseen and unknown to cope with the seen and known.

Skepticism, in this case, does not mean you are a doubter. From the link provided by wilbur:

Quote
Skeptical theism is the view that God exists but that we should be skeptical of our ability to discern God’s reasons for acting or refraining from acting in any particular instance.  In particular, says the skeptical theist, we should not grant that our inability to think of a good reason for doing or allowing something is indicative of whether or not God might have a good reason for doing or allowing something.  If there is a God, he knows much more than we do about the relevant facts, and thus it would not be surprising at all if he has reasons for doing or allowing something that we cannot fathom.

Now, your previous posts, IMO, are too short to draw a defined diagnosis to this extent. I will only comment on what you actually write.

I must say on the whole the conversation is going well. Unfortunately labels such as skeptical theism lend themselves to miscommunication unless every reader shares the same base of reference. Fancy terms save typing at the risk of misunderstanding.
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Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2010, 04:45:13 PM »
That makes more sense-- in any instance where my conclusions run up against doctrinal truth -- I immediately distrust my conclusions and abandon them like so much refuse.

OK, maybe not immediately.  But as soon as I recognize that holding to them is a form of rebellion against God.

An instance of this might be, "I believe that any murderer should go to hell."  That's not my call to make.  My preference would be that such a one should suffer death of the body at the hands of the state, but I cannot forbid God from drawing him to Himself in his final days.  Only God and the individual would know whether his belief was genuine, or just a hell-avoidance ritual.  

I believe that Karla Tucker is in Heaven today, based on her own and others' accounts.  Of course, I am not competent to declare it so, any more than I am to declare that Adolf Eichmann is definitely in Hell.  I can entertain an opinion, based on his and others' testimony.
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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 04:53:55 PM »
I believe that Karla Tucker is in Heaven today, based on her own and others' accounts.  Of course, I am not competent to declare it so, any more than I am to declare that Adolf Eichmann is definitely in Hell.  I can entertain an opinion, based on his and others' testimony.

And this is what some consider to be "unjust"

Suppose, according to Christian doctrine, Ms. Tucker's victims had not "come to know Christ". Then their souls would be lost for eternity. Yet, Christian doctrine says Ms. Tucker herself has every likelihood of having been forgiven and redeemed.

Of course that only opens the dialogue to the spiritual responsibilities of the victims.

In the Talmud there is a story of a student asking his rabbi when should a man properly repent of his sins. The rabbi replied, "The day before he dies." The student replied it was impossible to know when that day would come and the rabbi smiled back at him.
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2010, 08:33:06 AM »
And this is what some consider to be "unjust"

Suppose, according to Christian doctrine, Ms. Tucker's victims had not "come to know Christ". Then their souls would be lost for eternity. Yet, Christian doctrine says Ms. Tucker herself has every likelihood of having been forgiven and redeemed.

Of course that only opens the dialogue to the spiritual responsibilities of the victims.

In the Talmud there is a story of a student asking his rabbi when should a man properly repent of his sins. The rabbi replied, "The day before he dies." The student replied it was impossible to know when that day would come and the rabbi smiled back at him.


Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.

If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??

The murder repents later after they are caught  and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.

Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to

be in their own interests to do so

to give themselves a relief from their conscious

to try to control God by following his rules

Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??

I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.


Offline Carl

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2010, 08:58:44 AM »

Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.

If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??

The murder repents later after they are caught  and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.

Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to

be in their own interests to do so

to give themselves a relief from their conscious

to try to control God by following his rules

Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??

I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.



Vesta,you want things answered in a way that makes sense to your human mind and what you are rationalizing as fair and just.
That isn`t meant to be sarcastic either but it simply isn`t how it works.

Those people killed in this theoretical circumstance had ample time to repent on their own and did not.
It would make no difference if their deaths were the result of a tragic accident or natural causes.

If one is to accept Gods ways then it also means to know His ways may not be ours and the human mind can`t grasp it all.
It is fine to question,search Scripture and seek God for answers but one has to be open to the fact they may not come or in a manner we like.

Offline ExGeeEye

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2010, 09:06:18 AM »

...The murder repents later after they are caught  and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same...

...[T]he killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it...in their own interests to do so...to give themselves a relief from their conscious...to try to control God by following his rules...trying to scam, even God??

Since God is omniscient and lives outside of time (which is after all His own creation), it is impossible to short-circuit His will by our actions.

This is the part that really gets the "why does evil happen" folks...

To God, everything that to us is going to happen, has effectively already happened.

If He intends that so-and-so is going to go to church in 2016 and be saved, that person cannot be murdered in 2010.  It is impossible!

If on the other hand, God allows that a person exercising free will chooses to murder another, then it necessary follows that in God's plan, that victim's time was up, and any unrealized opportunity for repentance on the victim's part is his own responsibility.

Now if the murderer truly repents (your words) then it is definitely not to "control" or "scam" God.  That is the very definition of a false repentance.  As for your other terms, it is very much in the sinner's interest to repent.  Not so much that they don't feel guilt; it is the stab of a very guilty conscience, the knowledge that one has sinned and cannot un-sin, that leads to repentance.

In my example of Karla Tucker above, she knew her guilt and went to execution willingly.  I would suggest that true repentance carries with it a crushing realization of the infinite depth of one's guilt.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Just what most of us thought
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 09:15:54 AM »

Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.

If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??

The murder repents later after they are caught  and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.

Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to

be in their own interests to do so

to give themselves a relief from their conscious

to try to control God by following his rules

Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??

I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that any being that could create a human soul could probably have wherewithall to determine if a motive was sincere and self-serving.

I doubt Heaven is populated by crooks, liars and thugs that smiled at God and said, "No, really!" and then giggle behind His back.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."