Teachers are overpaid??? Our district has been frozen at 2008 salary levels whil

[formerlurker]

Very few, considering most government entities get the bulk of their tax funds from corporations.  Yes, you're paying taxes, but what you pay pales in comparison to what your employer is paying.

In the municipality where I work, I believe that only 20% of the city's taxes come from the residents.  A full 80% of the city's income comes from the businesses.

That is absolutely not 100% true, save for urban cities.   In MA,  school districts budgets make up 50%+ of a city or town's tax revenue, the bulk of which is residential real estate taxes.    

[formerlurker]

Ex-wife, but yeah, she's still a very dedicated teacher.  The good ones don't go into it for the money.

Very true.

[TexasCop]

That's fair, lurker.  I work in an urban suburb, which does cause a little myopia to rural areas.

[TVDOC]

Right, but deny that you're paying for the services.  You don't get police, fire and teacher services for free.

I won't deny that those services are needed, but there comes an economic level when we either have to live with LESS of them, or buy them cheaper.......we are at that point.......we see those economic dynamics playing out all over the country.  Municipal workers are going to have to get along with a hell of a lot less pay and benefits, or the services they provide are going to be cut.

Police protection....meh, I can protect myself, and the area that I live in I may see a patrol car once a year......most of them that I do see are hiding and handing out speeding tickets to generate MORE revenue.......I can certainly do with far less of that.  

Fire protection, that's what I buy insurance for.  If the house that I live in burns to the ground, I'd be the happiest person in the area, as I'd like to sell it, and there are no buyers, thanks to government incompetence.........

Schools, when my children were in school, we sent them to private schools anyway, I'd much prefer vouchers that would allow me to send my children to the schools of my choice.......

You have to understand that I grew up in a farm town with 3000 prople, which employed TWO policemen (with one car, both were, and still are paid just slightly above minimum wage), a volunteer fire department that did a hell of a job, and cost virtually nothing except their equipment.  I went to a school system that had (and still does) have NO union, and it's academically rated as number 3 in the state in student performance.

The world didn't come to an end in our community because we didn't have union municipal employees, folks took care of themselves and each other, and were not dependent on a "safety net".

doc

[formerlurker]

I won't deny that those services are needed, but there comes an economic level when we either have to live with LESS of them, or buy them cheaper.......we are at that point.......we see those economic dynamics playing out all over the country.  Municipal workers are going to have to get along with a hell of a lot less pay and benefits, or the services they provide are going to be cut.

Police protection....meh, I can protect myself, and the area that I live in I may see a patrol car once a year......most of them that I do see are hiding and handing out speeding tickets to generate MORE revenue.......I can certainly do with far less of that.  

Fire protection, that's what I buy insurance for.  If the house that I live in burns to the ground, I'd be the happiest person in the area, as I'd like to sell it, and there are no buyers, thanks to government incompetence.........

Schools, when my children were in school, we sent them to private schools anyway, I'd much prefer vouchers that would allow me to send my children to the schools of my choice.......

You have to understand that I grew up in a farm town with 3000 prople, which employed TWO policemen (with one car, both were, and still are paid just slightly above minimum wage), a volunteer fire department that did a hell of a job, and cost virtually nothing except their equipment.  I went to a school system that had (and still does) have NO union, and it's academically rated as number 3 in the state in student performance.

The world didn't come to an end in our community because we didn't have union municipal employees, folks took care of themselves and each other, and were not dependent on a "safety net".

doc

3,000 residents with just two policemen would be illegal in some states -- there are actually states which dictate what municipal services are sufficient based on number of residents per city/town (MA is one for instance).   My town's fire department is mostly volunteer firemen also, but they get a real estate tax break for donating their time, and of memory serves me right I do believe in some parts of Long Island volunteer firemen get an actual retirement for their volunteer service.  Of course Harry Reid is doing his best to make volunteer firemen illegal, so if he has his way that will no longer be an option for rural towns.

[TexasCop]

So cut our salaries and benefits.  However, when the private sector returns to normal, do you think we'll get these back?  No.  We are providing the same services we have for years with similar benefits.  I'm sorry the private sector sucks, but you chose to work in it.  I chose the public sector because of the job security.  It's like the class warfare has suddenly seen a polar shift.

[jukin]

Thanks for reminding me about the fact that public sector unions do NOT PAY FICA OR MEDICARE TAXES. The real cost of those is double what is taken from your check. A self employed people pay 15.3% for FICA and pay 2.9% for medicare for a total of 18.1%. 

I don't know about private schools but the public school teachers in kalifornia get every single holiday off.

9 days of holidays:
1. MLK BDAY
2. President Lincolns BDAY
3. Presidents Day
4. Memorial Day
5. Labor Day
6. Columbus Day
7. Veterans Day
8. Thanksgiving
9. Day after Thanksgiving


65 days of Vacation:
15 days at Christmas
10 days at spring break
50 days at summer break

TOTAL DAYS OFF: 74

Average private sector:
The big six holidays:
1. New Years Day
2. Memorial Day
3. July Fourth
4. Labor Day
5. Thanksgiving Day
6. Christmas

15 days of vacation.

TOTAL DAYS OFF: 21

TOTAL WORK DAYS IN A YEAR 5*52=260 WORK DAYS/YR

TEACHERS WORK SHARE: (260-70)/260=.73 OR 73%

PRIVATE SECTOR WORK SHARE: (260-21)/260=.92 OR 92%

WORK PERCENTAGE CHANGE: (.73-.92)/.73=.26

PRIVATE CITIZENS WORK 26% MORE TIME PER YEAR THAN THE AVERAGE KALIFORNIA TEACHER DOES.

There is no reason that a person that works 26% more time should earn less.  NONE.

Next we will evaluate what not paying for their retirement and not paying FICA does to this lopsided equation.

SPOILER: It gets even uglier for the schmuck that pays for teachers.  MUCH UGLIER.

[TexasCop]

jukin, check your facts.  We ALL have to pay Medicare taxes.  We don't pay into SS because we opt out of benefiting from it in the future.

[jukin]

Ours in Kali do not. They have the taxpayers paying their health insurance for life.

Either way it's only a 2.9% but going up due to Obama HellCare to 4.5%.

I assume you agree with the rest of the analysis by picking out the 'facts' of a disputable Fact.

[formerlurker]

So cut our salaries and benefits.  However, when the private sector returns to normal, do you think we'll get these back?  No.  We are providing the same services we have for years with similar benefits.  I'm sorry the private sector sucks, but you chose to work in it.  I chose the public sector because of the job security.  It's like the class warfare has suddenly seen a polar shift.

Unfortunately in the public sector there is no corporate profit margins for employees to benefits off of.  In the private sector if the company does poorly, the employees get laid off, the benefits erode, or they close for good.   In the public sector the employees feel very little of an economic downturn.   The states' pension systems took a major hit in the market crash, but your pension is secure.   GM?  not so much.   There is the difference.  

Unions have a stranglehold over municipalities.  Even if the city/town digs their heels in and offers no change to a contract when up for collective bargaining, then the the union triggers mediation and gets what they want (or pretty damn close) anyway.  

When there is no money to pay, there is no money to pay.  Municipal employee unions don't want to accept that.    

[TexasCop]

Teachers do get good time off.  It's like my wife says, "If you want those days off, get your teaching degree."  
 
But she also doesn't get paid much.  She's in her 19th year of tenure and just broke $50k a year last year.  I'll break down where our salary goes before we get to spend it.....
 
In 2010 the federal government took just over $11k from our pay before we ever saw it.  Deduct the Medicare on top of that.  I then had to pay $7,000 for a Health Savings Account.....if you know much about HSAs, that's $7,000 just to have an insurance card.  If I have to see a doctor, I have to pay for it.  I have a family of 5 and we never seem to reach our $4,000 deductible before it gets reset back to $0 in January.  That's over $18,000 per year that we never even see.  Trust me, on a cop and teacher salary, that doesn't leave a whole lot.
 
Which is why I work 3 jobs.  My police job is a 12 hour shift, so I'm off 4 days one week and 3 the next, so I have time to work other places.  
 
My city does do a 2:1 match on retirement.  My wife's school district contributes nothing towards her retirement.  She's been contributing to a 401B for years so she'll have something to supplement the meager retirement the state gives her.  
 
Trust me, we aren't retiring millionaires.  As a matter of fact, we'll have to pay off all our debt before we retire just so we won't have to work as Walmart greeters.

[TexasCop]

When there is no money to pay, there is no money to pay.  Municipal employee unions don't want to accept that.    

You are correct.  We don't have strong unions here, but rather weak associations, so we don't see this.  The city tells us our benefits are going down and we just suck it up.  We've already seen quite a few layoffs....none in public safety, yet, thank God.

[jukin]

Unfortunately in the public sector there is no corporate profit margins for employees to benefits off of. 

Not so in our county and one of the reasons that we are in such trouble. Our county unions got a clause in their contracts that says the employees get the same percentage raise as the county income climbs. This wen into effect in 1998. In the next ten years the property tax income more than doubled and so did our payrolls. In 2006 the county workers got a 15% raise because of the real estate bubble in kalifornia. What happens when those county revenues go down? County employees still get a guaranteed COLA +3.2% each year.

So basically if the times are good, the county unions are good. If times are down, the county union still gets a good raise. They did sacrifice in 2010.  Get this, they will not take their 3.2% raise, just the COLA (which SS didn't get but unions got 4%.) but take two weeks off with pay. So same wage plus COLA and two extra weeks off. Our pro public union politicians thought this was a huge sacrifice and boasted how great the sacrifice was for the poor public employees. KICKER, three years from then the public union employees will get all of the raises they were expected to. IOW, two years from now they will make the guaranteed raises,3.2+3.2+3.2=9.6%. In three years they will be at the same place but they still get to keep the two extra weeks of vaco.

This is what happens when you have the unions elect the people that negotiate with the unions. Fox, hen house, guarding.

[formerlurker]

Not so in our county and one of the reasons that we are in such trouble. Our county unions got a clause in their contracts that says the employees get the same percentage raise as the county income climbs. This wen into effect in 1998. In the next ten years the property tax income more than doubled and so did our payrolls. In 2006 the county workers got a 15% raise because of the real estate bubble in kalifornia. What happens when those county revenues go down? County employees still get a guaranteed COLA +3.2% each year.

So basically if the times are good, the county unions are good. If times are down, the county union still gets a good raise. They did sacrifice in 2010.  Get this, they will not take their 3.2% raise, just the COLA (which SS didn't get but unions got 4%.) but take two weeks off with pay. So same wage plus COLA and two extra weeks off. Our pro public union politicians thought this was a huge sacrifice and boasted how great the sacrifice was for the poor public employees. KICKER, three years from then the public union employees will get all of the raises they were expected to. IOW, two years from now they will make the guaranteed raises,3.2+3.2+3.2=9.6%. In three years they will be at the same place but they still get to keep the two extra weeks of vaco.

This is what happens when you have the unions elect the people that negotiate with the unions. Fox, hen house, guarding.

This should be the poster child of what is wrong with municipal unions.   Just wow.

[TexasCop]

jukin, you have a good point with the guaranteed COLA bumps.  Sometimes the government simply cannot afford them.  Like I said earlier, it's been 2 years since I saw my last one and they're telling us it'll be at least another 5.  We understand that because we don't want the city to go under.

[AllosaursRus]

Very few, considering most government entities get the bulk of their tax funds from corporations.  Yes, you're paying taxes, but what you pay pales in comparison to what your employer is paying.

In the municipality where I work, I believe that only 20% of the city's taxes come from the residents.  A full 80% of the city's income comes from the businesses.

And DUmmies wonder why our corps want to go overseas!

[TexasCop]

And DUmmies wonder why our corps want to go overseas!

Exactly.  We tax the crap out of them.

[formerlurker]

HOURS BEFORE RALLY, TEMPERS FLARE OUTSIDE STATE HOUSE

By Colleen Quinn
STATE HOUSE NEWS SERVICE

STATE HOUSE, BOSTON, FEB. 22, 2011…..Tensions between labor unions and small employers started hours before a scheduled 4 p.m. State House rally organized to support Wisconsin public employees.

Two sisters from Everett, claiming their father's business was nearly bankrupted by unions, stood at the foot of the State House shortly after noon, planning to spend all day protesting unions' power in front of the capitol. But a Massachusetts Teachers' Association consultant told them to move along because they did not have a permit.

Sheila Bruzzese and Tricia Bergeron said their father's eight-man heating and ventilation shop in Everett was forced to start paying $21,000 a month in union dues after one of his workers approached Local 537 asking to be unionized in 2009. The women were holding signs that read "Unions are killing this country" and "Unions are un-American." Their 69-year-old father has since died, leaving his son and one other man as the only employees of his 40-year-old business.

"Who is the union to dictate to my Dad, you are going to go union or you are going to go down?" Bruzzese said.

"If you don't want it, why do you have to be in a union?" Bergeron added.

http://66.105.150.70/cgi/as_web.exe?REV2011+D+2033374

This is Boston by the way -- the MTA is having a rally for the WI unions.   Tea Party members in Boston plan on attending also in support of Walker.

[Wineslob]

Wineslob, those are very misleading because of the flaws in how the MFI is calculated.  
 
The MFI where I work is $38k.  What's funny is that we only have a relatively small area for the middle class.  The wealthy and upper middle class far outnumber them here and I promise you they make far more than $38k per household.

2000 was a little out of date. From the 2008 census:

Median household income, 2008  $40,308 $61,017

  The 61 K is the State average.  I'm sure the teachers are well ahead of the "curve".


http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06007.html

This:  http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx?entity=County&id=10990400000   is from Butte county with 20% of the population BELOW the poverty level.

[formerlurker]

UNION, TEA PARTY RALLY QUICKLY BECOMES HEATED

Union organizers filled the sidewalk in front of the State House to capacity late Tuesday while Tea Party activists gathered across the Beacon Street ready to hold their own counter-rally. At 3:45 p.m., about 70 Tea Party activists waved "Don't Tread on Me" flags while more than 200 pro-union ralliers held signs reading "Stand up for Wisconsin workers," and "Union busting is disgusting." Congressmen Edward Markey and Michael Capuano were on hand at 4 p.m. Boston Building Trades Council official Martin Walsh, a member of the House from Boston, was also in attendance, as were Treasurer Steven Grossman and state Labor Secretary Joanne Goldstein, Reps. James Cantwell, Denise Provost and Sean Garballey and Sen. Sal DiDomenico. Traffic was still moving down Beacon Street, but at a slow pace and through a narrowed venue as some ralliers spilled off the sidewalks and pro-union activists began blending with their opponents. At about 4 p.m., pro-union ralliers walked across Beacon Street and put their signs in front of the Tea Party/anti-union crowd. When a pro-union protester engaged in a back and forth, the debate got heated and the pro-union activist spit in the face of another rallier, sparking yelling and commotion, with Boston Police moving in to break things up.

http://66.105.150.70/cgi/as_web.exe?REV2011+D+2040931



You stay classy, leftist freak shows.

[Randy]

They call that assault in my neighborhood.

[BEG]

jukin, check your facts.  We ALL have to pay Medicare taxes.  We don't pay into SS because we opt out of benefiting from it in the future.

Unfortunantly we can't "opt out" of SS.

[AllosaursRus]

They call that assault in my neighborhood.

You spit in my face, you're headed to the ER! Sure, I might go to county lock up, but I will still have my dignity. Can't say as much for the guy who might be needin' his jaw wired back together.

It's always amused me how in the movies, guys can take punch after punch, and never even bleed. I've never been in fisticuffs where I needed to land more than two. With DUmbasses, I'm pretty sure one would suffice. I've seen these bad mofos on the tele, not exactly Ahnold or "The Rock", are they?