big primitive squibble-squabble; primitives on warpath against each other

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6780082

Oh my; it's a really big bonfire, and lit not that too long ago.

Never mind the original topic; it's about San Diego State University cutting its music faculty.  What's far more interesting are the primitives crouching and wiggle-waggling their arm-pits at each other, in a bunch of different arguments.

Here's the first go-around of the primitive war-dances:

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
 
4. then we would be getting posts asking us to call to save the football program

i guess we all have irons in the fire and our favourite causes, for some the music dept is important, to others its not. no idea how to reconcile the differences or decide who loses out...

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
 
5. In my experience, football teams are never cut: too much ad revenue. It's the arts and liberal arts that consistently get cut.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
 
6. well there you go, why cut a program that generates money that helps pay for itself cut the other programs makes more sense....

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
 
14. The problem is football doesn't pay for itself. It never did.

I'll get the figures on it, but most of the time, football ends up costing the university, even with all the ad revenue.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
 
16. even if it does, more people probuably participate and would be willing to fight for it

the football teams tend to be the schools team spirit thing, whereas no one really cares about the music program apart from a very few people involved directly..

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
 
18. That notwithstanding, what happens to the hardworking, disciplined musicians who can't afford to attend a conservatory? Why shouldn't they be able to major in music at a good state school?

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
 
22. the same thing as the hardworking construction worker, or waitress who loses their job

they need to look elsewhere or go into another proffession, people all over the place are being fired and having to deal with the realities of the economy why not the musicians...

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
 
23. There are no other places for musicians to go, my friend. The high schools have pink slipped their music teachers. It's hard times for everyone, but a skilled musician without a job is not considered a skilled laborer by business. And even low paying retail doesn't have any jobs.

You really don't get what's going on. It sounds like you live a pretty sheltered life.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
 
24. lol what im saying is that they have to do the same as every other worker does and retrain for a new career, why should they be protected more than any other person out there.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
 
26. Retrain for what? Seriously. All of these are people with Master's Degrees.

What are they supposed to retrain for? Their specialties are music and education, both of which are being slashed to the bone. They've been working for years at what they do. What do you suggest they retrain for? Computers? IT is not hiring. Seriously. Give me something they can train for.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
 
29. well im sure the oft mentioned buggy whip makers had to retrain when cars made it big

ive got no idea what jobs if any are in the area they reside or if they would be willing to move, but like many others who have had to radically change their career path including myself its something they may have to do.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
 
30. In other words you have no real suggestions. Just a world view.

When you have some real careers that highly skilled people who love their work can transition into, you let me know. For now, it looks like fighting the grannies and the high school kids to be Wal Mart greeter.

If you are a Democrat, why don't you want to save a few jobs?

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
 
34. because i understand that if you save these jobs then the money is taken from somewhere else and others lose their jobs, i dont value these jobs as more valuable than the others. Also the advice i am giving is universal in that if you think that you can spend your whole life just doing stuff you love then you may be in for a rude awakening, more and more nowadays people are having to retrain and retool for the changes in the world.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
 
36. I asked you for specifics, not for for more talking points.

Give me something these highly educated and dedicated people can really retrain for.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
 
39. okay, if they can get through the police academy i know agencies that are hiring

i also know a couple of mechanic jobs that are going, and i know a landscaper who is needing to replace a worker.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
 
43. Police academies like young, fit recruits. Some of these folks are in their 40s and 50s

They're not climbing walls any time soon. Where are these mechanic and landscaper jobs? And won't the mechanic jobs eventually be filled by Saturn mechanics who will be losing their jobs very soon? Landscaping jobs will be taken by landscapers who have lost their jobs for other properties (closed businesses and foreclosed middle class homes and the like) will take the landscaping jobs before a 40-year old violinist can adequately train for the job.

You really haven't thought this out, have you?

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
 
45. lol the lanscaper job dosent need any training, just someone who will turn up and can use a weedwac

the agencies are looking for all types of people, yes even in their 40's. The mechanic jobs need some training but at least looking at training is better than woe woe is me. seems to me that what you are saying is that the 40 year old violinist is unable to do anything else or unwilling so he should be protected from the economy that everyone else faces...

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
 
47. OK. and is the landscaping job a long term job or a temporary position?

And if you've never used a weed-wacker, who is going to take a chance on you?

Here is California, they'll pay illegals under minimum wage to do landscaping.

Thanks again for the talking points. You're really a good bullshitter. You should try to get a job with GOP.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
 
49. lol still you miss the point, your friends job is going, he needs to step up like the rest of the people, he needs to find something else to do whether its landscaping, working in a bar or something else in music, he wont be the first or the last person who needs to retrain due to changing economies.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
 
51. You're still missing the point. The jobs aren't out there to have. 

Thanks, once again, for the talking points.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
 
55. lol and your missing the point, the music job isnt there, so he had better start to look elsewhere at doing something different... i just told you of a job i know that is going but for some reason you dont think working a weedwacker is for him...

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
 
95. No, I said the job looked temporary and was no replacement for what he lost

You are not going to change your mind until something happens to you. You may have changed careers, but I don't think you have through what these people have been through.

I think you are foolish, and if you're lucky and nothing happens to you, you'll stay that way.

But if something does happen to you, I hope you will remember this interchange.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
 
99. lol yeah like ive never had to totally change my lifes plans and move on

im sorry but what exactly have these people been through, theres millions of people going through the same or worse as we speak who are just as deserving of you sending emails and posting on forums...

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
 
64. whos talking about san diego, im saying the violinist may have to move and change his plans

the same as lots of people have to do throughout their working career...

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
 
68. Are you employed vadawg?

That's a serious question.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
 
73. yes i am, i am on the third major career in my working lifetime

and if it goes tits up i will start again somewhere else the same as ive done before.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #73
 
75. What have your careers been?

Again, a serious question.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
 
79. well military, insurance, law enforcement.. plus with a smattering of other jobs as needed..

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
 
84. Military and law enforcement are related. 

I suppose that music educators could go into selling insurance, but, again, in these tough economic times, a company might not take a chance on someone with no experience selling insurance.

Certain backgrounds lend themselves better to crossover skills than others. A military background is an added bonus to a lot of companies, who will hire you often despite your actual qualifications. In the Federal Government, veterans receive enough "extra points" to outrank any other job applicant who has the best skills. I have a highly skilled IT friend who could not get a job for which he was so qualified that the job was practically tailored to him because a vet decided he wanted the position, even though his computer skills were much more limited. In the end, the agency closed the job rather than hire the incompetent vet, but you get my drift. OF course, you served your country and I believe that deserves some compensation from society.

But for musical educators, the crossover skills are not as clear. Insurance sales would be the only one of your careers that I could see an educator transitioning into, but even then, it would be problematic, especially with the lack of jobs.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
 
85. i dont get extra points, but i have also worked concrete, construction worked in bars, bounced, been a busboy and just about anything else i coule find when the need arose. You say the musical educator dosent have crossover skills but it does not take a lot of skill to work a weedwacker or a lot of training to pull a pint.

Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts)     Thu Oct-15-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #85
 
97. Musicians always hustle and work different jobs. But this is not a secure way to make a living

Universities provide some stability, even in part time positions.

I have a feeling you're not a fan of music outside of pop or rock. This is something you don't value.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-15-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #97
 
100. exactly they hustle at different jobs, the same as other people and your friend is going to have to do what millions have had to do throughout the years and plan for another career mayby in another place. No i value music, i just dont think that everyone values it the same or that just because someone is a musician they should be protected when everyone else in society is losing their jobs due to cutbacks...

It goes on and on--and this is just one of the arguments taking place--and I'm probably bumping up against the character-limit of posts.

This bonfire's WELL worth getting out the boat and rowing over to see.

As a bonus, the mike_c primitive and the Zbigniew primitive are at it too.

[franksolich]

Okay, so this is my take on the situation.

Myself being deaf, music plays no part in this life.

However, myself not being a primitive, I acknowledge that there's many things in life that don't interest or motivate me, but interest and motivate a substantial portion of the human race, and that includes music.

I'm not into it, but I do know that in people outside of myself, it's important.

Alas, for such an important cultural ingredient in mankind, music is one of those things that requires substantial charitable or governmental help, in order to survive.

Well, I can live with that, but that's not what I'm getting to here.

What I am getting to here is that it's pretty difficult to feel sorry for unemployed elitists; these people with musical talents who think that they're too good to work in something else.  God forbid that their dainty musical digits get calloused from dirty work.

And also what I am getting to is the elitism of the primitive who originally lit this bonfire; she makes a vigorous, passionate, plea on behalf of those talented with music, but one reasonably suspects she would not be nearly so vigorous, nearly so passionate, in trying to save the jobs of guys who ride on the back of garbage trucks.

Being a Democrat, a liberal, and a primitive, the primitive who lit this bonfire shouldn't be an elitist, but that's exactly what she is.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Vadawg, despite being a DUmmie, is on the right track.  It all comes down to a question of whether it's more important to that person to be a violinist, or make a living.

That kind of thing has always been an easy call for me.  I also expect it has been for everyone else on THIS board, at least.

 

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I like vadawg

he bitched-out my mole not long ago

[The Village Idiot]

NikkiStoned apparently believes that some pigs, being the more equal than others, should be protected from reality.

How important can it be to society if no one is willing to spend a buck on it?

FRANK- You would likely have turned out different if you could hear, but if you'd had some of the same interests and tastes I have seen, I'd peg you for classical music.

[Carl]

Someone is trying to impose reasoned thought on the DUmp.

The touchy feely lib mindset won`t stand for that.

[IassaFTots]

My friend's BIL and Sister are like that.  He is a flautist, by way of Columbia, but he is a citizen.  She is an artist.  They have a child. 

They will not take a teaching position, unless it is a music or art position, respectively.  The man has been BEGGED to teach ESOL, but he won't demean himself that way.  They have a child.  And they live off the sympathy of my friends parents, because they have the family anchor-grandchild.   

[franksolich]

Someone is trying to impose reasoned thought on the DUmp.

The touchy feely lib mindset won`t stand for that.

You know, Carl, sir, since Gloria Swanson's missing in action, and franksolich is always on the lookout for older women who retain their youthful beauty and wit, I suppose the Nikki Stone primitive will have to do for now.

She's far from being another Gloria Swanson ("Tangerine LaBamba"), and light years away from being another Clare Boothe Luce, but she's the best the primitives have to offer (at the moment; Gloria Swanson might yet come back), and one can't do better than the best of what's offered.

[Reality vs DU]

Someone is trying to impose reasoned thought on the DUmp.

The touchy feely lib mindset won`t stand for that.

Right on Carl,  damn NikkiStone is stupid, Vadawg on the other hand doesn't seem like he belongs at the Dump.

[GOBUCKS]

You know, Carl, sir, since Gloria Swanson's missing in action, and franksolich is always on the lookout for older women who retain their youthful beauty and wit, I suppose the Nikki Stone primitive will have to do for now.

She's far from being another Gloria Swanson ("Tangerine LaBamba"), and light years away from being another Clare Boothe Luce, but she's the best the primitives have to offer (at the moment; Gloria Swanson might yet come back), and one can't do better than the best of what's offered.

I don't know, coach. DUmmy TLB at least had the practical sense to learn a marketable skill, as a lawyer, even though she was apparently one of the most incompetent people ever to claim that trade. This Nikki Stone DUmmy cannot even understand the fundamental principle that in order to have a viable trade, you need to have people willing to pay you to do it. If you toot a bassoon, and a thousand bassoon tooters are vying for ten bassoon tooting jobs, then the odds are you need to develop some other skill. Nikki Stone cannot understand that. I'm surprised you can so easily transfer affections from TLB to this numbskull, although I would be willing to bet she's better in the sack. So maybe I answered my own question.

[franksolich]

I don't know, coach. DUmmy TLB at least had the practical sense to learn a marketable skill, as a lawyer, even though she was apparently one of the most incompetent people ever to claim that trade.

This Nikki Stone DUmmy cannot even understand the fundamental principle that in order to have a viable trade, you need to have people willing to pay you to do it. If you toot a bassoon, and a thousand bassoon tooters are vying for ten bassoon tooting jobs, then the odds are you need to develop some other skill.

Nikki Stone cannot understand that. I'm surprised you can so easily transfer affections from TLB to this numbskull, although I would be willing to bet she's better in the sack. So maybe I answered my own question.

I recall, fondly, the Nikki Stone primitive when she visited us in our old home.

The Nikki Stone primitive's the only primitive that I recall, who never got banned there.  She didn't stick around long, but when she went away, it wasn't because she was shoved out the door.  She just went away because she said all she had to say, in a most charming way, and that was that.

That was an accomplishment, being a primitive and not getting banned.

I suspect the Nikki Stone primitive is pretty good hopping around in the sack, but that's not the primary (or even secondary or tertiary) thing here; she's an older good-looking woman who takes care of herself, grace and class and elegance oozing out of every pore.

Sort of like Linda22003 at our old home, or DixieBelle here.

We all seek in others those things we ourselves don't have (the stuttering Henry R. Luce and the witty Clare Boothe Luce, for example), and while I think the Nikki Stone primitive's politics are nonsense, undeniably she makes for an interesting conversationalist, the sharp repartee and all that.

[ColonialMarine0431]

The Primitives need a new site banner. I'll submit one for them that I made....




Or Maybe...

[AllosaursRus]

Why frank, I think you're smitten!

[Doc Savage]

Trying to find out how many musicians on the top 40 list have masters degrees.  If these professionals are good enough at music to teach it, I bet they are good enough to play a couple of gigs at a bar on the beach and make some pizza money.   

[Chris]

Music as a "career" is about as useful as chewing gum for a living.

[GOBUCKS]

Music as a "career" is about as useful as chewing gum for a living.

Well, a tiny, tiny sliver of the people who want to be musicians actually make a living at it; it's sort of like buying lottery tickets for a living. I read one time a few years ago that in the Nashville area nearly 10,000 people had listed "songwriter" as their occupation on their income tax returns. A few dozen people are making a good living at it, but I doubt it's more than that. All the others are waiting tables. Gum chewing is a much riskier career choice.

[franksolich]

Why frank, I think you're smitten!

Well, with Gloria Swanson being absent, what are the choices?

All of the chicks here are taken, and one of franksolich's main rules of life is, if someone belongs to someone else, franksolich doesn't want her.

So one turns to Skins's island.....

Most of the femmes on Skins's island are rather old and corpulent--the silly primitive ("SoCalDem"), the racist babbling sister primitive ("Babylon Sister"), the skidmarked underwear primitive ("Skidmore"), the defrocked warped primitive ("Warpy"), for examples, come immediately to mind.

And then there's those such as Doug's really stupid ex-wife, who used to be strikingly attractive, what with all of her northern Mediterraneanic features.

Grandma ("hippywife") is untouchable, because one doesn't mess with grandmothers, or those of the grandmotherly type.

And oh God no not the chinless wonder, the "Ava" primitive.

I've always had something against people without chins; I dunno why, but it's probably some childhood trauma long ago lost to the memory.

The pickings are pretty slim, near non-existent, on Skins's island, and right now, it looks as if the Nikki Stone primitive is the best (in both appearance and personality) of the lot.  Not much by the standards of we decent and civilized people, but the best that's there.

Trust me; the now-absent Gloria Swanson is a catch.

[GOBUCKS]

Well, with Gloria Swanson being absent, what are the choices?

All of the chicks here are taken, and one of franksolich's main rules of life is, if someone belongs to someone else, franksolich doesn't want her.

So one turns to Skins's island.....

Most of the femmes on Skins's island are rather old and corpulent--the silly primitive ("SoCalDem"), the racist babbling sister primitive ("Babylon Sister"), the skidmarked underwear primitive ("Skidmore"), the defrocked warped primitive ("Warpy"), for examples, come immediately to mind.

And then there's those such as Doug's really stupid ex-wife, who used to be strikingly attractive, what with all of her northern Mediterraneanic features.

Grandma ("hippywife") is untouchable, because one doesn't mess with grandmothers, or those of the grandmotherly type.

And oh God no not the chinless wonder, the "Ava" primitive.

I've always had something against people without chins; I dunno why, but it's probably some childhood trauma long ago lost to the memory.

The pickings are pretty slim, near non-existent, on Skins's island, and right now, it looks as if the Nikki Stone primitive is the best (in both appearance and personality) of the lot.  Not much by the standards of we decent and civilized people, but the best that's there.

Trust me; the now-absent Gloria Swanson is a catch.

And greenbriar is taken by that bald alcoholic wife beater (the other one, not Pitt).
I doubt DUmmy cali is taken, nor is UGP, nor Pitt's mother. Quite a smorgasbord of femininity....okay, I see what you mean.

[dandi]

You know, if you don't want to work, you can come up with 1001 reasons why you can't. Or shouldn't. Or wouldn't.

The Stoned One dummy was just chomping at the bit for the Old Dominion mongrel to name some jobs musicians could take up just so she could reflexively shoot them down one by one with her rationalizations. So negative and fatalistic about everything.

[AllosaursRus]

Music as a "career" is about as useful as chewing gum for a living.

I have 3 axes, and am proficient enough to play in "the bars" but to tell you the truth, have never been able to make a living at it. $200/week just will not put food on the table. That's about the cut you get with 5 of you playin' Friday and Sat from 9 til ???. Little hard to make music without 5 in the band. Some can do it with less, but if you heard me "sing" you would know of which I am speaking. LoL!

[AllosaursRus]

Trust me; the now-absent Gloria Swanson is a catch.

Isn't that pathetic, Coach? Incredible as we have Malkin, Coulter, Ingram, along with Beg, Ree, Mama, and Shad.........etc!

They truly are pathetic when it comes to the fairer sex! One almost has to feel pity. .........ALMOST! NAW!!!!!!!!!111 never mind!

[BlueStateSaint]

Music as a "career" is about as useful as chewing gum for a living.

Unless you teach music.

[Karin]

Well, I gotta say, VADawg is one of us. 

My brother started out college majoring in music, I suppose with an eye for teaching it.  Quickly became disillusioned with the prospects.  What to do?  He truly loved music, and he also loved working with his hands.  So he quit college and went to a school to learn a niche skill--repairing musical instruments.  He's been doing it now for 30 years down near New Orleans and is one of the best in the country.  And always busier than hell. 

[Karin]

I thought I'd bring this over.  It's from Nikki's original post, in the URGENT email people are supposed to send around:   Get out your big boxes of kleenex and prepare to be devastated: 

The tenured faculty, some of whom have not taught lessons in YEARS, are being asked to teach performance to fill in the gap left by the mass part timer firings. This will greatly bring down department standards

Can you freakin believe it?  No wonder VADawg was annoyed. 

[USA4ME]

nadinbrzezinski
 
... the Aztec..... football players are pushed to perform on the field instead of actually getting an education.

They are also consistently told a lie, that they will make it to the NFL. In the history of the program only ONE player made it... Fouts...

The idiot meant Marshall Faulk.  Dan Fouts played QB for the SD Chargers and attended college at Oregon.

Here's a list of over 100 players who made the NFL that attended SDSU.

http://www.databasefootball.com/players/bycollege.htm?sch=San+Diego+State+University

These dolts lie so much they can't even keep up.

.