The Conservative Cave
Interests => Religious Discussions => Topic started by: EagleKeeper on June 16, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
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I am or was watching a show that was pondering when an artificial construct ( a robot or whatever ) might be considered life. Some of the thoughts tossed about were things like being able to stand up or navigate around an obstacle. One of the things considered was the ability to pass on instructions on how to build another copy of the life that came before it.
I couldn't help but to start thinking that life started millions of years ago and has not stopped since.
I suppose my question is...when does life stop so that it can be questioned?
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Questioned? How so?
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Well I guess my question would be. If life sprang to life millions of years ago when does it stop being life so that it can be considered non life and destroyed?
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I think it actually stopping when we can no longer produce offspring; it seems to me to be the purpose of our lives
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Do you think you can trace your lineage back to beginning of life or not?
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Yes, I think we can in the sense that we are likely from the same source; are you touching on religion with your question? Interestingly, I can trace my paternal lineage to the 1700 -I think earlier but it never interested me
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Yes, I am touching on religion.
I think I can trace my lineage from the beginning of life on this planet through to today and beyond.
Are you not my brother?
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I really don't believe in God, as Christians do. I believe in living your religion, not church because I find sincerity in the former. So, I'm not your sister in the sense of the word as I understand you mean it.
If you are asking if I believe we will be all together in an afterlife, I don't know but I suspect there is something.
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I was not asking if you believe in religion, I was asking if you believe in life?
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I was not asking if you believe in religion, I was asking if you believe in life?
Hmm, philosophy. Yes, I do know we have a life, and certainly, the finality of death. But my answer is complex and I'm unwilling to explain why. I can only say that I know souls do have a purpose and sometimes I've fooled myself with thinking mine did, only to be bitchslapped into knowing that another, has a purpose for me
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Your answer is complex and you are unwilling to explain why.
I suppose I understand why you would do this. That's fine, I don't care either way.
Some folkes refuse to explain life so that they can refuse to explain other things and thats fine too
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Then you do it -since it is simple for you EagleKeeper
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Your answer is complex and you are unwilling to explain why.
I suppose I understand why you would do this. That's fine, I don't care either way.
Some folkes refuse to explain life so that they can refuse to explain other things and thats fine too
I enjoy points of view about life, because I know for myself I don't have life figured out. Sometimes even the solid foundation of what I believe experiences tremors.
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I enjoy points of view about life, because I know for myself I don't have life figured out. Sometimes even the solid foundation of what I believe experiences tremors.
No sh*t
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I enjoy points of view about life, because I know for myself I don't have life figured out. Sometimes even the solid foundation of what I believe experiences tremors.
All I want to say is that it should and I would be happy to have that conversation with yourself
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No sh*t
non sequitur.
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non sequitur.
At least I replied. The meaning of life is a bit raw for me and I prefer to write fully about it.
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Replying is almost always better than lurking.
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It was not and never was about you.
The original question was about how do you judge new life coming into being.
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It was not and never was about you.
The original question was about how do you judge new life coming into being.
I'm still waiting for yours
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Life means being self aware, but also having a desire for self preservation.
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It was not and never was about you.
The original question was about how do you judge new life coming into being.
That reminds me of a junior high science class topic of discussion. We were asked to define life. We came up with a lot of attributes, but at each turn were given examples of non life that had the same attribute. One such example was reproduction and viruses. The same quandary threatens discussion of the definition of human being. One fowl attempt was made with Plato's retort "featherless biped" whereupon a member of his audience picked up a chicken and plucked it.
Some concepts are quite complex to define or quantify.
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I'm still waiting for yours
That is an awesome question.
I look to my right and ask myself if my cat is alive
I believe that I can trace my cats lineage back to the first organism as I can do for myself.
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Life means being self aware, but also having a desire for self preservation.
How do you explain soldiers, or emergency personnel?
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I enjoy points of view about life, because I know for myself I don't have life figured out. Sometimes even the solid foundation of what I believe experiences tremors.
OK, I've had a glass of wine and I'll take the challenge. Only death shakes faith and despite some religions that celebrate 'returning home', we all have doubts that this is it and our biological expiration ends a chance to make things right, or to say what we didn't dare
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Life means being self aware, but also having a desire for self preservation.
An unborn baby has not yet developed self-awareness nor desires of any kind (including a desire for self-preservation).
Is it not alive?
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OK, I've had a glass of wine and I'll take the challenge. Only death shakes faith and despite some religions that celebrate 'returning home', we all have doubts that this is it and our biological expiration ends a chance to make things right, or to say what we didn't dare
Are you sure about that?
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An unborn baby has not yet developed self-awareness nor desires of any kind (including a desire for self-preservation).
Is it not alive?
I am on (or close to) your same wavelength. Check reply #21, this thread.
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Are you sure about that?
Is that a rhetorical question ? I ask ironically.
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An unborn baby has not yet developed self-awareness nor desires of any kind (including a desire for self-preservation).
Is it not alive?
I'm pretty sure studies prove that isn't true; they instinctively scream to signal hunger, and any discomfort
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That is an awesome question.
I look to my right and ask myself if my cat is alive
I believe that I can trace my cats lineage back to the first organism as I can do for myself.
Let me know when your cat can trace yours
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I can trace my DNA all the way back to the beginning.
Can you?
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Is that a rhetorical question ? I ask ironically.
Socratical, but not rhetorical, my ironical friend.
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I'm pretty sure studies prove that isn't true; they instinctively scream to signal hunger, and any discomfort
I look forward to reading the studies which prove fetuses in the womb scream from hunger or discomfort.
Link to one, please?
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Are you sure about that?
Yes, I know this well. While we are living the possibilities exist and human beings, no matter their obvious fate, have hope, but death is an unknown dance
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How do you explain soldiers, or emergency personnel?
What an odd question.
Are you inferring that Soldiers and emergency personnel lack self-awareness or the desire for self-preservation?
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Yes, I know this well. While we are living the possibilities exist and human beings, no matter their obvious fate, have hope, but death is an unknown dance
Go back and re-read your statement.
"Only death shakes faith".
Are you sure about that?
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Go back and re-read your statement.
"Only death shakes faith".
Are you sure about that?
I have it on good authority that question is Socratic !
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Yes, I know this well. While we are living the possibilities exist and human beings, no matter their obvious fate, have hope, but death is an unknown dance
I think you have missed the entire point.
You stupid bastard...are you alive?
If you are how did you come into being? Was it a accident...are you accidently alive?
Are you a dead person talking to me.
Are you alive?
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What an odd question.
Are you inferring that Soldiers and emergency personnel lack self-awareness or the desire for self-preservation?
I think they have a greater force than most, and are fully aware they leave corporal protection in the dust. I'm in awe of people who can run into danger, and not away. Undoubtedly, the natural state of man is to self-preserve their being, and it excludes them from heroism
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I look forward to reading the studies which prove fetuses in the womb scream from hunger or discomfort.
Link to one, please?
Hmm, you didn't specifically state in vitro but yes, deprive a fetus of fetal circulation, it reacts.
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Hmm, you didn't specifically state in vitro but yes, deprive a fetus of fetal circulation, it reacts.
Reaction is not necessarily self awareness.
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Hmm, you didn't specifically state in vitro
Ah, but I did.
An unborn baby has not yet developed self-awareness nor desires of any kind (including a desire for self-preservation).
Is it not alive?
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Undoubtedly, the natural state of man is to self-preserve their being, and it excludes them from heroism
This statement contains a serious, if not fatal, mistake.
As the philosopher said, "check your premises".
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I think you have missed the entire point.
You stupid bastard...are you alive?
If you are how did you come into being? Was it a accident...are you accidently alive?
Are you a dead person talking to me.
Are you alive?
How does calling people a "stupid bastard" facilitate discussion? Your language choice bores me
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Reaction is not necessarily self awareness.
Yes, I agree but fetal physiology is too complex for me tonight too
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Go back and re-read your statement.
"Only death shakes faith".
Are you sure about that?
Do you not agree that while we live, we can have out questions answered?
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Do you not agree that while we live, we can have out questions answered?
Again, with the non sequetur.
"Only death shakes faith" does not equal "while we live, we can have our questions answered" (which is demonstrably false, by the way).
Words have meaning, Humpty Dumpty. Try again.
You said, "Only death shakes faith". Defend that statement.
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Again, with the non sequetur.
"Only death shakes faith" does not equal "while we live, we can have our questions answered" (which is demonstrably false, by the way).
Words have meaning, Humpty Dumpty. Try again.
You said, "Only death shakes faith". Defend that statement.
Humpty Dumpty? I don't feel the need to defend what I know intimately but feel free to dispute it yourself
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Ignorance is correctible in the absence of denial.
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Ignorance is correctible in the absence of denial.
I just see you as critical, and I will never know if you are correct -your words don't explain an argument to me
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I look forward to reading the studies which prove fetuses in the womb scream from hunger or discomfort.
A baby in the womb can't scream, it has no air in it's lungs and people being fed through a stomach tube don't scream from hunger either.
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Humpty Dumpty?
Yes, Humpty Dumpty.
From Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll:
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
Get it now, Humpty?
I don't feel the need to defend what I know intimately but feel free to dispute it yourself
Your statement was, "Only death shakes faith". This statement is easily shown to be false, as the following examples show:
1. A Baptist preacher loses faith in God, and quits the ministry.
2. A wife loses faith in her husband, after learning that he is having an affair.
3. An Obama zombie loses faith in King Hussein, because a rainbow unicorn didn't appear on her doorstep the day after his inauguration.
Three cases of faith shaken (not stirred), and not a death in the bunch.
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A baby in the womb can't scream, it has no air in it's lungs and people being fed through a stomach tube don't scream from hunger either.
Indeed. By Humpty Dumpty's definition, they are not alive, because they can't scream.
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Yes, Humpty Dumpty.
From Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll:
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
Get it now, Humpty?
Your statement was, "Only death shakes faith". This statement is easily shown to be false, as the following examples show:
1. A Baptist preacher loses faith in God, and quits the ministry.
2. A wife loses faith in her husband, after learning that he is having an affair.
3. An Obama zombie loses faith in King Hussein, because a rainbow unicorn didn't appear on her doorstep the day after his inauguration.
Three cases of faith shaken (not stirred), and not a death in the bunch.
You have Western thinking, I do not. You see faith in terms of a what a year? More?
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Your statement was, "Only death shakes faith". This statement is easily shown to be false, as the following examples show:
1. A Baptist preacher loses faith in God, and quits the ministry.
2. A wife loses faith in her husband, after learning that he is having an affair.
3. An Obama zombie loses faith in King Hussein, because a rainbow unicorn didn't appear on her doorstep the day after his inauguration.
Three cases of faith shaken (not stirred), and not a death in the bunch.
Good points. You can also say that many people facing death also find their spiritual faith.
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Your statement was, "Only death shakes faith". This statement is easily shown to be false, as the following examples show:
1. A Baptist preacher loses faith in God, and quits the ministry.
2. A wife loses faith in her husband, after learning that he is having an affair.
3. An Obama zombie loses faith in King Hussein, because a rainbow unicorn didn't appear on her doorstep the day after his inauguration.
Three cases of faith shaken (not stirred), and not a death in the bunch.
I am a zombie for owebuma, and I approved this message !
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You have Western thinking, I do not. You see faith in terms of a what a year? More?
"You have Western thinking, I do not". What kind of silly word salad is this?
You're demonstrating the working of a disordered mind, Humpty.
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Your insults bore me -go play
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Your insults bore me -go play
I find your characterization of Big Dog's observations as boring very critical.
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I find your characterization of Big Dog's observations as boring very critical.
Very well then, Big Dog needs a playmate
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Yes, Humpty Dumpty.
From Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll:
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
Get it now, Humpty?
Your statement was, "Only death shakes faith". This statement is easily shown to be false, as the following examples show:
1. A Baptist preacher loses faith in God, and quits the ministry.
2. A wife loses faith in her husband, after learning that he is having an affair.
3. An Obama zombie loses faith in King Hussein, because a rainbow unicorn didn't appear on her doorstep the day after his inauguration.
Three cases of faith shaken (not stirred), and not a death in the bunch.
If I may step in: those are changes of faith. Not shaken faith.
Indeed as stated, only death can shake faith, since it is the only true test of faith. All else is conjecture, not test.
It is like the fools who think hate is the opposite of love. The wise know indifference is the opposite of love.
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If I may step in: those are changes of faith. Not shaken faith.
Indeed as stated, only death can shake faith, since it is the only true test of faith. All else is conjecture, not test.
If you limit the definition of the word "faith" to religious faith, you may be right. But "faith" is a bigger word, with bigger meaning, than that.
Faith in a spouse does not require anyone's death to be shaken, damaged or destroyed.
The (misplaced) faith of the Obama worshiper does not require death to be shaken, damaged, or destroyed.
It is like the fools who think hate is the opposite of love. The wise know indifference is the opposite of love.
True.
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Hmm, you didn't specifically state in vitro but yes, deprive a fetus of fetal circulation, it reacts.
After a short night's sleep, I'm back to spank you some more, Humpty.
In vitro means "in a test tube". Did you really mean to say that?
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Congratulations everyone, this is a great thread. But it's something like looking for different shades of black.
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Reaction is not necessarily self awareness.
Indeed. More often than proof of life, reaction is proof of physics.
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
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Yes, I think we can in the sense that we are likely from the same source; are you touching on religion with your question? Interestingly, I can trace my paternal lineage to the 1700 -I think earlier but it never interested me
I have mine back to about 1560. Before that is really cloudy.
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I was not asking if you believe in religion, I was asking if you believe in life?
That question is very complex. It would depend on how you define life and that would depend on your philosophical or spiritual world view. What do you consider to be life? I am a Christian and as a Christian my soul and physical being are entwined in what we call this world. But, is this world all there is? I believe that my essence continues after death. My physical body dies but my spirit (soul if you will) passes on to another form of existence. I believe that God made our souls to be immortal for as long as he wills them to exist. Perhaps immortal is then the wrong way of looking at things. My existence (life) is tied to God's will and we have life in him.
When a dog dies, it really dies because their is nothing in its being to go forward. Its existence is bound to this world. Our existence is bound to God's.
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I have mine back to about 1560. Before that is really cloudy.
Interesting CG . On a related topic, I thought of doing that DNA tracing project study -was it National Geographic?
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That question is very complex. It would depend on how you define life and that would depend on your philosophical or spiritual world view. What do you consider to be life? I am a Christian and as a Christian my soul and physical being are entwined in what we call this world. But, is this world all there is? I believe that my essence continues after death. My physical body dies but my spirit (soul if you will) passes on to another form of existence. I believe that God made our souls to be immortal for as long as he wills them to exist. Perhaps immortal is then the wrong way of looking at things. My existence (life) is tied to God's will and we have life in him.
When a dog dies, it really dies because their is nothing in its being to go forward. Its existence is bound to this world. Our existence is bound to God's.
I'm hoping that dog's do have a forever; I can recall a minister telling me he thought they did too.
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I'm hoping that dog's do have a forever; I can recall a minister telling me he thought they did too.
SOme believe pets go to heaven because they would be necessary for the human's souls.
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SOme believe pets go to heaven because they would be necessary for the human's souls.
If there is a separate dog heaven, I'd be damn happy to go there. :-)
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If you limit the definition of the word "faith" to religious faith, you may be right. But "faith" is a bigger word, with bigger meaning, than that.
Faith in a spouse does not require anyone's death to be shaken, damaged or destroyed.
The (misplaced) faith of the Obama worshiper does not require death to be shaken, damaged, or destroyed.
I stand totally corrected. "Faith" is trust in that which cannot be proven.
I did indeed elevate it to Faith in God, which can never ever be proven in our empirical lives (unless He just decides "That's it, I am going to just skywrite The Meaning across all the world").
Faith in obozo now requires trust in the presence of complete and concrete empirical proof that he is a socialist, a buffoon, a manchild and an idiot.
Thanks for helping me refine my thinking...
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If there is a separate dog heaven, I'd be damn happy to go there. :-)
Whatever heaven I go to (assuming a LOT...), my now passed beloved Musica and Neysa (cats) had better be there or I AIN'T STAYING!
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Whatever heaven I go to (assuming a LOT...), my now passed beloved Musica and Neysa (cats) had better be there or I AIN'T STAYING!
No kidding. I avoid my parents and two siblings in this life; I sure a hell don't want to see them for eternity but my beloved dog, I still miss.