Author Topic: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing  (Read 1898 times)

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Offline franksolich

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career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« on: June 01, 2008, 05:32:15 PM »
The neighbor--he of the mutual automobile accident and midwifery night--was here this afternoon, and illuminated me that I had really pissed off "certain people" around here.

I asked whom I had pissed off, and upon learning, was very happy.

It was the least I could do.

The sorts of people pissed off are redolent of the dysgynaecological school teacher in Kansas ("Proud2BeLib"); about five or six of them.

We are few and rare around here, and the deaf and hard-of-hearing even more rare, meaning that we all get to know each other sooner or later.

One of the friends in town has a son, now 18 years old, recently graduated from high school, who was born hard-of-hearing; circa an 80% absence of normal hearing, which is "corrected" (quotation marks intentional) by wearing two hearing-aids.

Which makes him a different sort of animal than I am, but there are similarities, much in the same way both a zebra and a horse have four legs.

I have known this kid for about six years.

About a week before graduation from high school, he came to me, suggesting he was not at all comfortable with all the "plans" laid out for him, especially by teachers and social workers; "plans" that involved going to college, the whole bit, after which ostensibly he can lead a good career with the assistance of "affirmative action" and various mechanical devices.

The kid has never been academically inclined; deaf and hard-of-hearing people, and more so male deaf and hard-of-hearing people, generally never are.

I had long ago sensed he was unhappy in school; Hell, it was my own biography.

I asked him what he wanted to do; not with his life, but the next two or three years.

He told me he wanted to work.

I asked him if he had any particular line of work in mind.

Surprisingly, unlike a typical teenager, he did have a specific line of work in mind; he wished to join a threshing crew, those hordes of peripatetic roughnecks, hoodlums, alkies, carnies, with a strong leavening of decent and civilized people, who start harvesting wheat down in Texas in early June and slowly move northward as the summer progresses, through Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, and Manitoba, ending the work-year circa early October way up north.

It's not an easy life, working 16-18-hour days usually under a blistering sun, seven days a week, living out of a camper or tent.  The pay is good, but not exceptional; it's good enough pay that in four and a half months, well, one can live comfortably the other seven and a half months watching television and posting on Skins's island.

Or posting here, which is what franksolich does, although franksolich follows a different line of work.

I told him go for it, and wrote him a letter of recommendation sure to impress any threshing-crew boss; it was on that heavy grey linen letterhead, with the a fronte praecipitum, a tergo lupus motto of mine on the top.

In the meantime, all the teachers and social workers had accumulated a whole set of "financial packages" to pay for a college education for him.

Well, he left town unannounced (excepting to his parents, of course) last week, and is now on a threshing crew down in Texas, although the work doesn't start for a couple of weeks or so yet.

With all due respect to hearing people here and elsewhere, most of the time solutions for the problems of the deaf and hard-of-hearing are devised by hearing people who have no idea what sort of world we inhabit, and I have very good and solid reasons for suggesting the kid do what he did.

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2008, 05:49:25 PM »
It is beyond any doubt that those who know a kid are often better able to help that kid.  My middle daughter got into some trouble, and I responded to it by pulling her out of high school (against recommendations), sticking her in a GED class (against recommendations) (from which she graduated in less than 2 weeks   :-)).  As that was in December, I enrolled her in college at 16 (against recommendations) and chose her classes for the first 2 semesters (against recommendations).  She passed all her classes - not great grades because she does have learning disabilities, but passing grades. 

After those first 2 semesters, the college began getting very pushy about the "required" classes she wasn't taking...the General Education classes and the Orientation class.  Mr Smith thought we'd better have her take the required classes instead of just the ones that pertained to her goal of owning her own business...and predictably, she flunked them all.  She did, however, retain good enough grades in the pertinant classes to bring home a "Management Certificate" before she turned 18.  In point of fact, she ONLY passed those classes that she and I chose.   :-)

The "experts" are usually anything but...

Time will tell, frank, but I'm betting the kid will end up much happier working until he's ready to go back to school. 
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2008, 06:16:01 PM »
Time will tell, frank, but I'm betting the kid will end up much happier working until he's ready to go back to school.

Here is where we sort of diverge, madam.

It is probably true that after a couple of years of such work, he might decide to go to college anyway, and if he does that, he must inevitably anticipate college with less fear, more learning, than if he started right now.

However, it is equally probably true that he might never go to college at all, period.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing, not going to college.

When I was 16 years old, I wanted to drop out of school; school seemed so pointless, so meaningless, to me.

Remember, I was a deaf child being raised as if the deafness didn't exist; the teachers were specifically instructed by my parents to treat me as if I heard perfectly.

It might seem a little rough, that regimen, but life generally does not present one with a "good" choice and a "bad" choice; life generally presents one with a "bad" choice and an "even worse" choice, and my parents made the best possible choice.

By the time I was 16 years old, I was incredibly tired, worn out, depleted, exhausted; endless hours, endless days, endless weeks, endless months, of merely sitting in a school room, absorbing nothing at all, taught me only.....stoic fortitude.

This of course served me well in my life, such as when I was wandering around the socialist paradises of the workers and peasants.  Many times other westerners commented on my nonchalance, my patience, my endurance, my utter carefree attitude, at, for example, standing in line out in the bitter cold for six hours so as to buy a couple of quarts of milk.

But man, I paid full price--and perhaps even too much--to acquire that virtue, fortitude.

My father was then still alive, and would have none of it. 

He asked what I wanted to do, if I dared drop out of school.

I said I had always found the company of ditch-diggers amenable and illuminating, and so that was what I wanted to do; dig ditches for roads, or for a construction company, or somesuch.

Of course that didn't go over.  My father died a year later, and my mother a year after that, but someone was always around--eventually, the much-older siblings--to "keep me in line," what with everybody in the family for six generations or something, having been college graduates.....and I was not to be the person to break that tradition.

So.....I went to college.  And after getting one degree, went back to get another (more practical) degree.

There however exists no evidence that had I dropped out of school and been a ditch-digger for the past two and a half decades, that franksolich would know any less about things, than he currently does.

I am sure even the mike_c primitive, a stickler for academic study, would have agreed that no, franksolich belonged out in the real world, never in college.

Recall that nearly half of my credits at the University of Nebraska--about 40%--were gotten through CLEP (the College-Level Equivalency Program; examinations based upon life-experiences), credit by examination, and independent study.  This all fulfilled the requirements, of course, for a college degree, but I rather suspect most people would think it something less than an actual college education.

I paid my own way through college, and every time I get a solicitation from one or another of the alumni organizations, I think to myself, no, I already gave the college more than enough money, more than what it was ever worth.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2008, 06:46:30 PM »
Time will tell, frank, but I'm betting the kid will end up much happier working until he's ready to go back to school.

Here is where we sort of diverge, madam.

The time may well be never.  I certainly didn't make it through college right after high school...but 3 kids and no income changed my mind.   :-)  I went back for something I'd never considered in my wildest dreams (electronics) and have ended up with a income x4 of my first choice of career (veterinary assistant.)  College isn't for everyone, but I'd never close the door on someone, either.  Especially with the proliferation of online classes, it shouldn't be difficult to get a real education without any need to hear. 
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 07:10:42 PM »
Always wanted to follow the grain caravan from Texas start to finish in Canada myself but......

Who knows, long hot days, he may be home in time to start college this fall.....LOL

...or he might save his money and start small and .......who knows.
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Offline Dixie*Darling

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2008, 09:12:01 PM »
Excellent post Frank.  Thank you for sharing.

Being hearing impaired myself (2 "grandpa" style behind the ear hearing aids), I can sympathize with this young man's reluctance to head straight off to college and his desire to do his own thing.

Persons with full hearing ability have no idea how hard and physically exhausting it is to spend a normal day just trying to follow and understand conversation/s.  My favorite wording for this is "deciphering" meaning, of course, understanding.  For instance, a conversation with myself and (say) 2 other people is like a tennis match going on in my head.  There is a time delay of sorts going on in the brain, establishing and understanding each and every word.  Certain vowel and consonant sounds, as well as dialects, are blurred in the mind at times. By the time I've understood what the topic of conversation was about, the topic has changed and I'm struggling to keep up.  Frustration kicks in on both sides when there is miscommunication and I'm having to ask the person/s to repeat. 

I myself went back to school in 2001, at the time equipped with just one hearing aid, all the while not realizing that I needed two.  At one point the single hearing aid needed repair and left me with classes for a week that I really struggled with.  I tape recorded (mini cassettes) all my classes and copied notes from other students. 

My internships were the worst.  I managed straight A's only because I would "Velcro" myself to the lead assistants, taking my lead from them. 

The last day of my last internship left me in tears and my self esteem completely bottomed out.  I had spent six weeks in a periodontal office assisting with dental implants, major extractions, bone removal, tissue grafting ... really cool stuff!   The science behind this is fascinating!  I requested this placement because of this.  I later found out that no student had been placed in this periodontist office in the past 7-8 years because he was/is an asshole.  Anyway ... last day, we're all getting ready to leave, he requests that I stay behind for a few minutes.  Everyone leaves and I'm left with this mans personal evaluation.  He precedes to tell me that it's not my hearing impairment that impedes my performance,  but that I am incompetent.  I was crushed. 

Anyway ..

My impairment came on me gradually in my mid thirties.  I can't imagine struggling through high school like he did.  I'm sure I would be saddened to hear some of his experiences in trying to manage/cope.

Kuddos to this young man for choosing his own path.  I wish him well where ever his path may lead him.

Also, to you Frank ... thank you for your candor in speaking about your own experience/s.     

Offline Chris_

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2008, 09:50:18 PM »
Frank, I really want to have a, well, frank discussion with you about this -- but I am very tired right now after flying my weekly cross-country.

My sister is a ASL interpreter -- big time, for legal matters and teaches it and does it for the local University, etc.  She is a huge and deep member of the Deaf Community.  The same Community that refuses to use technology to help (or come close to curing) their disability.

Her new b/f (probably fiancee soon) is profoundly deaf.  I asked him (through her) whether he would prefer a deaf child or a hearing child.  His answer (wait for it) was he would prefer a deaf child, since a hearing child would be confused in his/her relationship with deaf parents.  My (obvious) answer is that desiring a handicap for one's child is 180 degrees from what anyone would call "love."  My sister freaked out and said "You want to have a kid that is not broke? Well, Joe (not real name) is NOT broke."

My response. Yes he is.

She then spent quite some tome explaining to me all the ways that the hearing community hasn't "done enough" to "change their communications methods" to support the Deaf Community.  Like it is an onus on us, the Eeevlil Hearing, to completely restructure tens of thousands of years of spoken communication.  Oh, and we pay on our phone bills for communications devices for the deaf.  We don't do so for the blind.

Frank, I love you man, but you have a disability you have overcome (or at least dealt with well).  You can drive, but you can't pick up on audio clues.  If a police chase is coming 90 degrees from you, how do you know to stop?  When you are driving, how do you talk to people without taking your eyes off the road more than not?

There are very real difficulties you need to and have overcome -- I know that. 

But to wish a disability on your CHILD?  From what I gather, this is, indeed, the desire in the Deaf Community.

Frank, the problems in the Deaf Community are no more the responsibility of the Hearing than the problems in the Black Community are the responsibility of the Whites.

I hope this doesn't hurt our friendship, but it needed to be asked and said.
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Offline mamacags

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2008, 10:10:03 PM »
My parents and old teachers have begged me to go back to college.  Just thinking about it gives me nightmares.  I educate myself with books outside of schools.  Why would I need a teacher's opinion when I can read the facts for myself?
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2008, 10:18:57 PM »
Frank, I really want to have a, well, frank discussion with you about this -- but I am very tired right now after flying my weekly cross-country.

My sister is a ASL interpreter -- big time, for legal matters and teaches it and does it for the local University, etc.  She is a huge and deep member of the Deaf Community.  The same Community that refuses to use technology to help (or come close to curing) their disability.

Her new b/f (probably fiancee soon) is profoundly deaf.  I asked him (through her) whether he would prefer a deaf child or a hearing child.  His answer (wait for it) was he would prefer a deaf child, since a hearing child would be confused in his/her relationship with deaf parents.  My (obvious) answer is that desiring a handicap for one's child is 180 degrees from what anyone would call "love."  My sister freaked out and said "You want to have a kid that is not broke? Well, Joe (not real name) is NOT broke."

My response. Yes he is.

She then spent quite some tome explaining to me all the ways that the hearing community hasn't "done enough" to "change their communications methods" to support the Deaf Community.  Like it is an onus on us, the Eeevlil Hearing, to completely restructure tens of thousands of years of spoken communication.  Oh, and we pay on our phone bills for communications devices for the deaf.  We don't do so for the blind.

Frank, I love you man, but you have a disability you have overcome (or at least dealt with well).  You can drive, but you can't pick up on audio clues.  If a police chase is coming 90 degrees from you, how do you know to stop?  When you are driving, how do you talk to people without taking your eyes off the road more than not?

There are very real difficulties you need to and have overcome -- I know that. 

But to wish a disability on your CHILD?  From what I gather, this is, indeed, the desire in the Deaf Community.

Frank, the problems in the Deaf Community are no more the responsibility of the Hearing than the problems in the Black Community are the responsibility of the Whites.

I hope this doesn't hurt our friendship, but it needed to be asked and said.


I don't see anything to be offended about, in your comments.

The perception of the "deaf community"--with which I of course cannot be, seeing as since infancy my own "orientation" has been towards the hearing world--is that deafness is not necessarily a disability, and can in fact be an asset.  It makes us a better judge of character, ostensibly.

The closest I can sympathize with this is that we have to judge people by their actions, not their words.

Hearing people judge other people by their words, and ignore their actions, or so it seems.

Now you know why I have a deep and hearty loathing for Democrats, liberals, and primitives; all talk, no action.

Things are for "other people" to do, while they just sit around.

But other than that, I have no illusions about the deaf world being the better world; I am not in sympathy with the attitude of your sister and prospective brother-in-law.

Hearing children with deaf parents (or at least one deaf parent) encounter significant problems, but on the whole, it's better for deaf parents to have hearing children, because 99% of the world is the hearing world.

If I were married and had children, I would want them to have 100% perfect hearing.

But of course and naturally there would be certain psychological problems for such hearing children.

On the flip side of the coin, deaf children have psychological problems too.

It's six of one thing, half a dozen of another thing.

The deaf are "broke," like Joe, but that can generally be said for all other humans too, who have neuroses and psychoses of varying sorts; otherwise we wouldn't be human.  Some people can't throw a basketball as far as a basketball star can, for example.  I doubt most people could play poker as well as franksolich can.

Unlike your sister, I think the hearing world has interfered too much in trying to "help" us; it would be a lot better to leave us alone (such as the example of the kid who's now on a threshing team), than to coerce us into striving towards things for which we have neither the gifts nor the temperament, and are likely to fail.

It rips my guts out, taxpayer money being spent to apply totally inappropriate "solutions" to the problems of the deaf; spend the money on liberating the children of Iraq and Afghanistan, as it's a much better public investment.

Every time a hearing person suggests something (usually a mechanical device) to "make" my "life easier," I say "**** off."  I myself know what it takes to make my life easier, and nothing that's ever been suggested by the hearing world has done an iota for easing this life. 

The big problem is, hearing people think if only we could hear, everything would be okay.

Which is utter nonsense.

And see, that's where any discussion of this has to start; from the standpoint that nothing, really, can be done to convert a deaf person into a hearing person.  Okay, then, what can be done simply so that everybody gets along with each other?  I have always said simple courtesy and consideration, which doesn't cost a dime, is all that is needed.  Simple courtesy and consideration is, I suppose, why I am still in this world, rather than having withered away.

As for your other questions, such as when driving an automobile; I don't have this "man thing" about being the driver.  If another person is with me, I just let the other person drive and talk, while I sit and "listen" on the passenger side.  As for warning signs, such as sirens and blinking lights, well, God gave me two eyes.

One adapts.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2008, 12:17:22 AM »
Oh man, Frank -- thanks for your great response and for understanding.  I appreciate how you give full attention to those things you post and how you give full respect to your conversations.

I would like a bit more understanding on these comments:

Quote
The deaf are "broke," like Joe, but that can generally be said for all other humans too, who have neuroses and psychoses of varying sorts; otherwise we wouldn't be human.  Some people can't throw a basketball as far as a basketball star can, for example.  I doubt most people could play poker as well as franksolich can.

We are talking about true disability -- I think we need to compare it to blindness.  We have a few senses and lack of touch is probably death and lack of smell isn't debilitating.  Seeing and hearing are the senses we need to "naturally" interact with people and the physical world.  But it isn't comparable to being bad at sports (I was) nor neurotic (I am).  You might make an argument about severe mental illness, but that isn't as clear as deafness or blindness.
 


Quote
The big problem is, hearing people think if only we could hear, everything would be okay.

Which is utter nonsense.

That is the biggest thing I don't understand.  There is technology, which is getting better, which can provide hearing to the deaf.  Why would providing this be any different to providing eyesight to the blind?  I don't get your point, here.  And it is, I think, the crux of our discussion.

Quote
And see, that's where any discussion of this has to start; from the standpoint that nothing, really, can be done to convert a deaf person into a hearing person.  Okay, then, what can be done simply so that everybody gets along with each other?  I have always said simple courtesy and consideration, which doesn't cost a dime, is all that is needed.  Simple courtesy and consideration is, I suppose, why I am still in this world, rather than having withered away.

I am courteous and as helpful as possible to all disabled. And I am also solicitous and respectful, since I know some disabled (particularly the recently disabled) have a severe "I can do it" mentality.  My other sister raises help dogs, so I also know to ask whether a dog is working or not.

And you are in this world to be loved by many, many people. Like me (guy love, ya know).



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Offline formerlurker

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2008, 05:14:56 AM »
Since he was tracked to graduate at 18, his transition process should have started when he was 15 -- and he should have been a part of those team discussions.  At 16, federal law dictates that he be a big part of those discussions.   If college was not his desire then a full vocational screening and plans should have been afforded him.   

But since when do school districts adhere to laws that apply to the disabled?     

Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2008, 07:34:56 AM »
Hey, freedumb2003, thanks for the input, and there's no way you're going to be upsetting me by being frank.

Being all too familiar, intimate almost, with the primitives, there's no way decent and civilized people are going to bother franksolich, no matter what they say.

I'm dealing with a problem right now (it's about 7:30 a.m. central time, 6:30 a.m. mountain time, Monday), and will get back to you--and DixieDarling and formerlurker later today, maybe mid-afternoon or thereabouts.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2008, 02:57:21 PM »
I'll deal with your comments one at a time, freedumb2003 (three times, then), as it was a busy morning and I still have to go to town.

Your first one, about Joe being broken.

There is nothing at all wrong with that statement of fact.

Looking at the vast panorama of both human and animal life, it is patently obvious that both God and nature intended living things to hear.  It is in the natural order of living things to hear, probably because the greatest gift we get from God and nature is the instinct for survival, and hearing adds much to that instinct.

Someone who does not hear is an aberration.

franksolich is an aberration.  Joe is an aberration.

Your sister, in her too-strong "defense" of Joe, is betraying that subconsciously she realizes something is wrong, very wrong, with her chosen one, and she feels compelled to "protect" him.

She seems to think that to be an aberration is demeaning, or that it makes one a lesser person.

There is nothing wrong with being an aberration, unless it is the sort of thing that makes one an axe-murderer or somesuch.

Shit happens, and it's not the fault of the aberration, and usually not even the fault of any other human being; it just happens through bad luck or normal human carelessness (such as in my case, my mother acquiring a virus when I was three or four months in the womb--being an R.N. ostensibly she was knowledgeable enough to  guard against certain things, but my mother was human, too).

In the broader sense, all of us are aberrations of one sort or another, to some degree of severity.

No one is perfect; everyone has an ailment or a deformity that to some extent cripples their ability to function.

There are plenty of Aryan liberals, for example, running around with structural defects that influence their ability to function; perhaps a singular speech-defect or some dead brain-cells or a missing little toe or the propensity to involuntarily flatulate.  Such things DO affect one's "perfection."

So we're all aberrations.

But it's no big deal, because to God, all are equally valuable; each and every person is a "1."  There are no ".9"s and "1.1"s to God, among us.  We are each and all a "1," not an iota more, an iota less, to God.

This bothers me in the sense that the Bostonian Drunkard and the sleazeball skumbag primitive (IanDB1) are just as valuable to God, as I am, or that I am worth only as much to God as the Bostonian Drunkard and the sleazeball skumbag primitive.....but there's nothing I can do about it, and so I might as well accept it.

Life in this world is not perfect, for anybody, but how long is life in this world, as compared with the greater Infinite Reality afterwards?

There is much meaning in the Scriptures, about ".....every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill laid low; the crooked straight and the rough places plain....."

Your sister needs to accept that:

(a) Joe is an aberration, a violation of the natural order of things;

(b) there is nothing wrong with being an aberration;

(c) everyone is an aberration of one sort or another; and

(d) it doesn't matter, because while in this world we are vastly unequal, we are all equal in the Eyes of God.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2008, 03:04:21 PM »
Thanks again Frank.

I also hope this helps others -- I suspect we have touched on some issues that people may have wanted to ask about your unique physical situation but were hesitant to do so.

I wonder if I'll have the guts to tell my sister what you said about her real feelings (and I think you have a dead on hot there). Probably not unless something really important is at stake.

Great information, amigo.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2008, 03:17:31 PM »
I wonder if I'll have the guts to tell my sister what you said about her real feelings (and I think you have a dead on hot there). Probably not unless something really important is at stake.

No point in it, sir; you will never convince her, I will never convince her.

Some people are really really really hung up on this "all are equal" thing, which is a delusion.

We are all equal to God--which is the only thing that matters, really--but in this time and place, we're all a bunch of ".3"s and ".6"s and a very few "1"s and some "1.2"s, and decent and civilized people, having been given the gifts of discernment and judgement, have no trouble accepting this concept, this Reality.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2008, 05:38:43 PM »
There's two answers, each equally valid, to your question about hearing people think everything would be fine, just great, if deaf people could hear.

As mentioned earlier, it seems the natural order of things, that people hear.

But once in a while aberrations happen.

Aberrations that either cannot be corrected, or corrected with unanticipated, unwelcomed, consequences.

No matter how advanced, no matter how state-of-the art, hearing implements are, there is NO substitute for the natural sense of hearing.

We see this with the Lowell primitive over on Skins's island all the time; all his incessant whining and griping and bawl-babying that no matter what he does with hearing implements, they don't accurately reflect real sound.

The Lowell primitive is a different sort of case than franksolich; the Lowell primitive apparently once had good hearing, and lost some of it.  Given his name, and knowing of the popularity of names given infants throughout the years, one suspects the Lowell primitive is circa 60-70 years old, and his hearing degeneration can be simply because of his age; although don't quote me on this, as there might have been something else involved here.

If lousy replication of sound is all the Lowell primitive has to complain about, the Lowell primitive has had a pretty soft and easy life.

The Lowell primitive is never going to be happy no matter what; he most conveniently forgets that while his own glass is three-quarters full, there are some with not a drop in their own glass, and the Lowell primitive should be grateful to God for that.

Hearing implements are not a replacement for hearing.

Hearing implements help, but they do not restore.

A hearing implement should be viewed as a crutch given to a one-legged man.  The crutch enables the one-legged man to stand upright, but the one-legged man isn't going to run the four-minute mile or flip somersaults because he has that crutch.

And now I must wander into a mine-laden field, but being ideologically a moderate, a middle-of-the-roader, I'm used to getting smashed flatter than a toad by traffic going both directions, so.....

Surgical procedures, such as cochlear implants, are the Great White Hope of the hearing, for the deaf.

If one has once had good hearing, and lost some or all of it, by all means, I strongly suggest one use any and all opportunities to get that hearing restored as much as it can reasonably be restored.

If one was born hard-of-hearing or deaf, no, absolutely not.

All inside the human body is connected, related in some way or another.  As the infant grows and develops, all parts of his body grow and develop in relation to everything else.  This is the marvelous thing about the growth and development of Life; how things just naturally fall into place so as to assure one's survival.

If an infant in the womb develops some sort of condition that is going to lead to deafness, or hard-of-hearingness, at birth, all of his other body parts fall in line, including the brain, evolving so as to ensure his survival.

In other words, those hard-of-hearing or deaf at birth, have their brains already "wired" in a manner that is accommodating of their survival.

All human brains are different, of course, but there are marked differences between the brains of hearing people, and the brains of those born with auditory defects.

Please notice my constant differentiation between those "born with" and those "later developed;" in this instance I am referring to the former. 

If franksolich, who was born deaf, were to undergo some sort of procedure that gave him full hearing, franksolich would end up worse than even the subway cat or the phalloscraping primitive; a basket-case needing immediate lobotomization.

Hearing is not simply the hearing of sound; it affects all senses.

If franksolich could suddenly out of the blue hear, it would cause considerable convulsion and disarray in his sense of time, space, distance, proportion, equilibrium, color, light, the whole bit.

The whole world and all in it, out of whack.

There have been several surveys done on cochlear implants, for example, ever since the procedure became popular.

Those who were born with good hearing, but lost part or all of it, and then had the procedure done, do okay.

Those who never had good hearing, or hearing at all, and then had the procedure done, have an enormously high rate--100% as far as I've seen--of maladjustments, disorders, self-destructive behavior, suicide.

Damn.

Of course, the problem in analyzing this data is that the hearing world tends to lump all the deaf and hard-of-hearing together, as if we have the same attributes and problems, when in fact, as I have pointed out before, there are four distinct groups of the hard-of-hearing and the deaf, and so the numbers of "successes" and "failures" get distorted, giving a misleading picture of what's really going on.

The current record for survivors of cochlear implants is so-so.

But if one were to differentiate between those survivors of cochlear implants who were born with good hearing, but later developed some or total loss, and those survivors of cochlear implants who were born hard-of-hearing or deaf, one discovers the record is pretty close to 100% "success" for the first group, and 0% "success" for the second group.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2008, 05:51:25 PM »
Well, there is always cochlear implants in infancy -- but we are quite a few years away.

I can understand what you mean. If a blind from birth person was suddenly given sight in adulthood, his brain would have no way to process the information and would probably overload.

So maybe I was too quick in asking my question before getting an answer.

I guess the "question behind the question" is, if deafness could be eliminated in, say, 2 generations, would you support it?  There are MANY in the Deaf Community (profoundly deaf) who describe such an idea as "genocide."

We are on the crux of being able to isolate and eliminate deafness -- at least in the Western World -- through prosthetics and aggressive early (and even prenatal) therapies.  The biggest hurdle is the Deaf themselves.  The same is true for blindness, but not in the same time frame (sight is much more complex than hearing).

I don't have links to the Blind Community like I do to the Deaf (I have another sister who also is involved and does sign language interpretation part time), but from what I understand the same issue is being debated there as well.

But you may and no doubt do know more about this phenomenon than I do.

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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2008, 06:44:19 PM »
Oops, I'll have to interrupt myself, leaving your third question on the first page for later.

It's hot and sultry here today, and so I'm in a grouchy mood.

If deafness could be eradicated by prevention--and I'm not talking abortion, here--yes, great, I am all for it.

I think many in the "deaf community"--which of course includes hearing people who make a great deal of money off the deaf, just as the poverty profiteers (i.e., "activists" and lobbyists) make a great deal of money off the plight of the poor--think of this as "genocide" because it insinuates we aren't worthy of life, and so have to be wiped off the face of the earth.

It needs pointed out it is hearing people who originate and feed this idea; hearing people who profit off our woes and miseries.

I of course cannot speak for the hard-of-hearing (either from birth or later developed), or for the deaf who were born with hearing (the "apples," "oranges," and "penquins," respectively), but I can tell you that among we "rocks" (those born deaf), probably damned near all of us would just as soon have been born with hearing.

But shit happens.  One accepts, one adapts, one moves on.

This idea of a "deaf culture" evolved from Gaulladet College in Washington, D.C., the first and only institution of higher education for the deaf (compare that, please with the places for the blind or the wheelchaired) in this country.

On the whole, students at Gaulladet College tend to be spoiled rich kids who feel a need to be "victims."

I am sure the hearing world would have been astounded a couple of years ago, if they had even heard of the controversy, that the students there protested installation of a new president, because she suggested "peaceful coexistence" with the hearing world, and they didn't want any of that sort of thing.

It was a tempest in a thimble, and so naturally the hearing world didn't hear of it, but it really rocked the "deaf community."

I suspect, without really knowing, that this is why my father insisted I be in the real world, and not cloistered with a tiny group of effete twits.

Of course, it was impossible to expect that I would be fully accepted (please notice the all-important word, "fully") by the hearing world, and by keeping me away from the effete twits, even though I am one of them, full-bloodedly one of them, I would never be fully accepted by them either.

It's an uncomfortable sort of existence, being suspended in mid-air between two groups (the very large enormous hearing world, and the very tiny minuscule deaf world), but I'd just as soon be hanging between the two of them, than being wholly over there.

Everyone has a right to Life, but no one has an automatic "right" to a comfortable life.

But getting back to your original question, I fully support prevention of deafness, but this being an imperfect world (the primitives on Skins's island being prime examples of that), I really doubt it will ever be wiped out.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2008, 07:09:55 PM »
Well, Coach, the internets has been a great boon.

Not necessarily to you, but to me and the rest of the people here who have come to like you and think of you as a friend.  It is quite the equalizer.

You don't need to worry about the other question.  And if this is "grouchy," you don't want to see ME "grouchy."

If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Dixie*Darling

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2008, 07:45:47 PM »
...

Hearing implements are not a replacement for hearing.

Hearing implements help, but they do not restore.

BINGO!  Hence the term "aids".

My son was in his early/mid teens when I began losing my hearing.  He would do what we called the "stupid sign language".  Something akin to thumping your chest one-handed and saying "duh".  It was cute (done in fun) till it was done during conversations on matters of importance.  Of course we were BOTH just learning to deal with my impairment.  At that point I explained that it doesn't replace the natural hearing ability.  If he had some he wanted to tell me, he would have to make the effort

It's one thing to explain it to family and close friends, but quite another thing to explain it to ignorant co-workers.  I've had my share of being humiliated by "bully" types who take it upon themselves to point out my impairment.  "Turn your hearing aids up" shouted across a crowded store, "Got your hearing aids in today"; phrases meant to belittle me, publicly.  Thing is, in a store situation, most customers are regulars and they knew me and liked me.  These bullies usually wound up making asses of themselves.

Back to family ... I had an incident with my mother yesterday that left me fairly angry.  I was invited to have supper at my sister's house (she's Mother's guardian now since I relinquished my duties, with good reasons) and watch a TV show.  Everyone knows I have to watch with closed captioning or I can't follow the program.  For some reason Mother was in a pissy mood and decided she didn't want to have the CC on.  Unpleasant words were exchanged and I left.  <sigh>

It is a common misconception hearing aids are a "cure".  If only.  I'm amazed that in the 6 years since I got my old set and now the new set, how far technology has advanced.  In adjusting to the new set I've noticed that certain sounds are now crisper and clearer.  The plucking of a banjo on a favorite song, the birds singing 1st thing in the morning, the once noiseless whirl of the ceiling fan overhead .. all more distinct now. Both old and new sets were/are state of the art digital, but the advancement in such a short time is quite a marvel. 





Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2008, 08:05:40 PM »
Since he was tracked to graduate at 18, his transition process should have started when he was 15 -- and he should have been a part of those team discussions.  At 16, federal law dictates that he be a big part of those discussions.   If college was not his desire then a full vocational screening and plans should have been afforded him.   

But since when do school districts adhere to laws that apply to the disabled?

I'll get back to freedumb2003's third question, and to DixieBelle in a bit.

It's just a really lousy hot sweltering evening here, but as very large rain-storms are headed this way, it should cool off.

I'm assuming you're referring to Vocational Rehabilitation, formerlurker; I'm not aware of any "system" in the schools around here that specifically "guides" the "handicapped," although there might be.

My own experiences with Vocational Rehabilitation have been pleasant and fruitful ones, but that's perhaps because of the way I've used their services.

When I moved up here from Omaha, I immediately contacted Vocational Rehabilitation--not to find me a job, but simply to verify to prospective employers I was who I said I was.  I was new here; no one knew me, and all of my references were from people in faraway places.

Vocational Rehabilitation, because of record-keeping, could assure anyone locally that yes, I was who I said I was, yes, I had what I said I had, and yes, I had done all I said I had done.  It saved me a great deal of time and trouble, and within three days after I started looking (I didn't start looking right away, still having income from my previous job in Omaha), I was working.

When I was in high school, remember, I didnotdidnotdidnot want to go to college; I wanted to be immediately out in the real world doing something, even if shoveling dirt.

My parents, but not I, had discussions with Vocational Rehabilitation at the time, and it was decided that Hastings College, a private college owned and operated by the Presbyterian Church in Hastings, Nebraska, with only 800 students, would be "ideal" for me, as compared with, say, the University of Nebraska, a great big huge state institution with 25,000 students.

No one with whom I was familiar was going to Hastings College, which raised red flags, but then it was thought something else would ameliorate that; most of the students at Hastings College were from eastern states (Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, whatnot), at the time "my sort of people."

I cannot say too much about Hastings College; and for those who wish the smaller-town (Hastings is a city of circa 20,000) wide-open spaces, acres of green lawns, ivy-covered buildings, very low professor-student ratio, caring staff, excellent football team, well, consider Hastings College.  It's a great place.

However, it just did not work for franksolich.  Not that everybody didn't bust their asses to make it work, but it just didn't work.  Inbetweentimes, my father died, and so as to please my mother, I transferred to the University of Nebraska, where there were a lot of people with whom I was familiar.  But it wasn't easy; an older brother had to physically, forcibly, shove me into the office for the initial admissions interview.

Shortly after getting in there, my mother died, and ooops, suddenly while I was not where I wanted to be, I was at the only place I could be.  I remained in college only because there was nowhere else to go (the brothers and sisters all being much older than I, married with children, all that).

In the case of the kid now threshing wheat, I suspect he was pressured, and buckled; "You're just as good as everybody else, and since everybody else is going to college, you're going to college, too."  But unlike me, while he appeared to "give" at the beginning, he showed some spine at the end.

There is not much point in spending money educating those born hard-of-hearing, and those of us born deaf.

Gaulladet College, the special college for the deaf, which has been around since 1840 (or something)--well, with thousands of students passing through it the past circa 170 years, one would think it has built up a rather impressive roster of alumni.

I looked it up once; the most famous, the most distinguished, product of Gaulladet was a guy who did the engravings for books by Gustave Dore.

That guy was it; that guy was the apex of their students.

JohnnyReb here once told, in our old home, the story about a kid who used to badger him, whenever JohnnyReb went out to chop wood.  The kid was deaf or hard-of-hearing, and while he loathed school, he really liked chopping wood (if I am recalling the details correctly).  One suspects the kid was a nuisance to JohnnyReb, always wanting to chop wood.

The kid's parents and the school decided he had to continue his education.

The kid didn't want to do that; he wanted to chop wood.

Well, he caved, and got into all sorts of trouble, and ended up in the state penitentiary.

Such is what happens when the hearing world seeks to impose its standards, its goals, upon those not part of the hearing world.

If the kid had just been left alone, by now surely he would be an affluent member of his community, a homeowner, a taxpayer contributing to the public till, because damn, there's a lot of money to be made chopping wood.  But no, he's in prison, costing everybody money.

Those born hard-of-hearing or deaf are just not academically inclined, and all the care and trouble in the world is not going to make them academically inclined.  I suspect that simply mastering the ABCs and arithmetic is all that is needed, provided we are thereafter left alone to develop and thrive as wildflowers.

Wildflowers are durable, and can be beautiful.

Myself being a graduate of the University of Nebraska, and a one-time student at Hastings College and Muhlenburg College (Allentown, Pennsylvania), well, despite all this fancy education, franksolich is Genghis Khan in Vienna, a barbarian in civilization.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2008, 05:59:50 AM »
Persons with full hearing ability have no idea how hard and physically exhausting it is to spend a normal day just trying to follow and understand conversation/s.  My favorite wording for this is "deciphering" meaning, of course, understanding.  For instance, a conversation with myself and (say) 2 other people is like a tennis match going on in my head. 

There is a time delay of sorts going on in the brain, establishing and understanding each and every word.  Certain vowel and consonant sounds, as well as dialects, are blurred in the mind at times. By the time I've understood what the topic of conversation was about, the topic has changed and I'm struggling to keep up.  Frustration kicks in on both sides when there is miscommunication and I'm having to ask the person/s to repeat.

You know, that's really odd; I thought I was the only one who ever saw the similarity between your sort of experience, and the game of tennis.

It can be Hell, can't it, when dealing with more than one person in a conversation?

And, as you said, it is actually physically draining, physically exhausting, even if all one is doing is sitting there.

I have always "adapted" by avoiding communicating with more than one person at a time.  But of course one can't always avoid such situations, but one can avoid many of them.

A few days before April 15, I had a case where 17 guests of Texan extraction showed up here all at one time, coming together to pick up their completed income taxes.  These were nice people, friendly people, considerate people, people who brought over a lot of home-made food of Mexican derivation and baby to bounce on my knee.

But man, it was just too much.  Even though they were only here three hours, I was drained for the next couple of days.  If I recall correctly, I couldn't even post here, I was so drained.

It's not just the people, but the environment too.

For example, the only "special accommodation" I have ever requested for a job interview is that the interview take place in a small private room, where visual distractions are not likely.

Objects, light, colors, movement, are "sounds" to me, and if there's too much of that going on, I'm at sea when communicating with the other person.

The worst job interview I've ever had in my life--one of those very rare times my request for "special accommodations" was not honored--was with a college dean in Omaha.  She insisted on seeing me in her office, and her office was jampacked to the ceiling with things, with clutter, with stacks of stuff even on the floor, and to add to the misery, a second person was there too.

It was very "noisy" in there, and I flunked the interview.

DixieDarling, I frankly suggest you do this too, the next time you have an important interview, for a job or something.  Request that it be held in a small confined place with few or no visual distractions; you might, or might not, realize how much superfluous visual distractions interfere with your trying to decipher what's being said.

This is why, those few times I have had to give testimony in court about something, I have asked both attorneys to depose me instead of putting me on the witness chair.  When giving testimony under oath without distraction, the whole thing can be wrapped up, all said-and-done, in ten or fifteen minutes.

I'm a nice guy; I want to cause as few complications as possible for other people.

Most of the time, such a request has been honored, especially after the attorneys (if new to me) have seen me in real life.  But two times it was not, and I had to sit on the witness chair in a courtroom.

For the record, franksolich has never been an interested party in any legal action; these all were instances, civil cases, where I just happened to have seen things, and I was on no particular side.

The first time I had to testify in a courtroom, despite my protestations it would cause problems, went from about 1:00 on a Friday afternoon until suppertime, and then resumed the following Monday at 8:00 a.m., finally wrapping up about 10:00 a.m. on Tuesday.  Originally, it was assumed I would be there for only 20-40 minutes.

The second time was before the same judge, but three years later.  The judge, remembering me, complied with my request that he, the judge, repeat to me the questions asked by the attorneys in the courtroom.  I was in the hot-seat for only an hour and a half, in that case.  One attorney didn't mind his questions being "filtered" through the judge, but the other attorney minded very much, and raised Hell right-and-left about it.

One person at a time, and as little superfluous "noise" as possible, and one does okay.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2008, 11:47:39 AM »
Since he was tracked to graduate at 18, his transition process should have started when he was 15 -- and he should have been a part of those team discussions.  At 16, federal law dictates that he be a big part of those discussions.   If college was not his desire then a full vocational screening and plans should have been afforded him.   

But since when do school districts adhere to laws that apply to the disabled?

I'll get back to freedumb2003's third question, and to DixieBelle in a bit.

It's just a really lousy hot sweltering evening here, but as very large rain-storms are headed this way, it should cool off.

I'm assuming you're referring to Vocational Rehabilitation, formerlurker; I'm not aware of any "system" in the schools around here that specifically "guides" the "handicapped," although there might be.

My own experiences with Vocational Rehabilitation have been pleasant and fruitful ones, but that's perhaps because of the way I've used their services.

When I moved up here from Omaha, I immediately contacted Vocational Rehabilitation--not to find me a job, but simply to verify to prospective employers I was who I said I was.  I was new here; no one knew me, and all of my references were from people in faraway places.

Vocational Rehabilitation, because of record-keeping, could assure anyone locally that yes, I was who I said I was, yes, I had what I said I had, and yes, I had done all I said I had done.  It saved me a great deal of time and trouble, and within three days after I started looking (I didn't start looking right away, still having income from my previous job in Omaha), I was working.

When I was in high school, remember, I didnotdidnotdidnot want to go to college; I wanted to be immediately out in the real world doing something, even if shoveling dirt.

My parents, but not I, had discussions with Vocational Rehabilitation at the time, and it was decided that Hastings College, a private college owned and operated by the Presbyterian Church in Hastings, Nebraska, with only 800 students, would be "ideal" for me, as compared with, say, the University of Nebraska, a great big huge state institution with 25,000 students.

No one with whom I was familiar was going to Hastings College, which raised red flags, but then it was thought something else would ameliorate that; most of the students at Hastings College were from eastern states (Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, whatnot), at the time "my sort of people."

I cannot say too much about Hastings College; and for those who wish the smaller-town (Hastings is a city of circa 20,000) wide-open spaces, acres of green lawns, ivy-covered buildings, very low professor-student ratio, caring staff, excellent football team, well, consider Hastings College.  It's a great place.

However, it just did not work for franksolich.  Not that everybody didn't bust their asses to make it work, but it just didn't work.  Inbetweentimes, my father died, and so as to please my mother, I transferred to the University of Nebraska, where there were a lot of people with whom I was familiar.  But it wasn't easy; an older brother had to physically, forcibly, shove me into the office for the initial admissions interview.

Shortly after getting in there, my mother died, and ooops, suddenly while I was not where I wanted to be, I was at the only place I could be.  I remained in college only because there was nowhere else to go (the brothers and sisters all being much older than I, married with children, all that).

In the case of the kid now threshing wheat, I suspect he was pressured, and buckled; "You're just as good as everybody else, and since everybody else is going to college, you're going to college, too."  But unlike me, while he appeared to "give" at the beginning, he showed some spine at the end.

There is not much point in spending money educating those born hard-of-hearing, and those of us born deaf.

Gaulladet College, the special college for the deaf, which has been around since 1840 (or something)--well, with thousands of students passing through it the past circa 170 years, one would think it has built up a rather impressive roster of alumni.

I looked it up once; the most famous, the most distinguished, product of Gaulladet was a guy who did the engravings for books by Gustave Dore.

That guy was it; that guy was the apex of their students.

JohnnyReb here once told, in our old home, the story about a kid who used to badger him, whenever JohnnyReb went out to chop wood.  The kid was deaf or hard-of-hearing, and while he loathed school, he really liked chopping wood (if I am recalling the details correctly).  One suspects the kid was a nuisance to JohnnyReb, always wanting to chop wood.

The kid's parents and the school decided he had to continue his education.

The kid didn't want to do that; he wanted to chop wood.

Well, he caved, and got into all sorts of trouble, and ended up in the state penitentiary.

Such is what happens when the hearing world seeks to impose its standards, its goals, upon those not part of the hearing world.

If the kid had just been left alone, by now surely he would be an affluent member of his community, a homeowner, a taxpayer contributing to the public till, because damn, there's a lot of money to be made chopping wood.  But no, he's in prison, costing everybody money.

Those born hard-of-hearing or deaf are just not academically inclined, and all the care and trouble in the world is not going to make them academically inclined.  I suspect that simply mastering the ABCs and arithmetic is all that is needed, provided we are thereafter left alone to develop and thrive as wildflowers.

Wildflowers are durable, and can be beautiful.

Myself being a graduate of the University of Nebraska, and a one-time student at Hastings College and Muhlenburg College (Allentown, Pennsylvania), well, despite all this fancy education, franksolich is Genghis Khan in Vienna, a barbarian in civilization.

No I mean transition services that are required by IDEA that include vocational assessments, job coaching and planning for those who do not wish to attend college (this is done while still in high school, and is not the adult vocational rehab that your are referring to).

Link to more info: http://www.nichcy.org/resources/transition101.asp

My son is autistic.   Does this mean he is incable of learning?  of course not.   It simply means he needs to be taught in a different way.    Children with disabilities have amazing protential if given the right tools to learn.

Special education advocacy is a field I am highly trained and educated in as it will be a life long job for me to ensure my son gets the services he requires to learn.    He is learning by the way.   Every day.    His disability does not define who he is -- which is an amazing, sweet, affectionate and very smart little boy.



 


Offline franksolich

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Re: career opportunities for the deaf and hard-of-hearing
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2008, 03:14:02 PM »
My son is autistic.   Does this mean he is incable of learning?  of course not.   It simply means he needs to be taught in a different way.    Children with disabilities have amazing protential if given the right tools to learn.

You're a great parent, and this hat's off to you.

You're right about children with other sorts of problems, who of course have an amazing ability to learn, if the proper things are done, and they're kept away from the angry bitter grimacing wirerimmed-eyeglasses with KERRY/EDWARDS and ABORTION NOW bumper stickers on their automobiles.

With a mother like you, the kid can't go wrong, all the way to college.

Just keep him away from the angry bitter grimacing wirerimmed-eyeglasses.

My exposure to the autistic has been minimal, but they always struck me, at least superficially, as having more "depth" than many, but there's that very strong outer "skin" that one has to penetrate first, to get "inside."
apres moi, le deluge