Gift wrap her and send her to the Taliban.....

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

It's a question of who is to blame.

If a spouse is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc does she deserve to be cheated on?

No.

If a spouse is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc does she deserve to be denied sex?

No.

See...no contradiction.

If a person doesn't want to be sexually available for a spouse who is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc THEY should seek the divorce and not act so damned naive if they get cheated on.

Imagine entering into a business contract where you and your partner agree to never make a decision without consulting each other. A standard, everyday business decision comes along and your partner is not available for you to consult. They won't return calls, answer email, answer the door when you knock.

You can try to ignore the needs of your business, but it won't go away it just keeps backing up.

You can try and dissolve the partnership but the courts will penalize you.

So what do you do?

Should the business partner act surpised if you unilaterally make a decision?

Who is the first person to break the covenant?

[DixieBelle]

Snuggle Bunny, if a spouse just refuses to have sex...and I agree, that after a while, it IS emotional abuse, then it is up to the one being abused to leave the marriage. I can understand why someone in that circumstance would cheat, but it just doesn't justify it at all. Wrong is wrong. The spouse refraining from having sex is also wrong, and if marital counseling isn't sought to try to rectify the problem and the other spouse is contemplating cheating, the marriage really needs to be finalized.

You can't control what someone else does (i.e., the spouse who withholds sex), you can only control yourself.

I don't think he was jusitfying cheating. Snuggles can come along and clarify himself but I'm pretty sure he was just trying to give some context....

And I agree with him because it expanded on my earlier comments about agreeing with Dr. Laura (in essence) because marriage (and the sexual aspect) takes work and commitment. It isn't a black and white scenario.

IMO, what she is saying is that when you justify cheating on your spouse by saying that you aren't getting your needs met, it is time to get a divorce so that you can get your needs met elsewhere, legitimately, where no wrongdoing will occur.

lastparker made a huge leap in logic then because I never said cheating was okay. I can see how my agreement of Snuggles comments could be misconstrued though.

People are flawed and messy. In a perfect world, spouses would never stray, problems would be worked on, issues resolved, third parties would never enter the picture, etc..that is not the case though. My comments and agreement with Snuggles was to expand a bit on the "whys". Not to make excuses.

[LadyLiberty]

If a person doesn't want to be sexually available for a spouse who is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc THEY should seek the divorce and not act so damned naive if they get cheated on.

There is the justification for cheating, right here.

Again, you can only control what YOU do.

The spouse withholding their love and affection is wrong.

Cheating is wrong.

You can't control the other person's wrongdoing. You can only control yours.

So, if they are withholding their love and affection and they are resistant to counseling and/or trying to work through it, then get out of the marriage and find someone who can meet these needs in a legitimate way.

[LadyLiberty]

Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.

And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.

[LadyLiberty]

I will also say this, if a spouse withholds their love and affection, there is probably a reason for that. I know women do it out of utter resentment. There is usually a long, complicated  history involved, which is why counseling is the way to go.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.

The refuser is the one that cheated the "adulterer" merely reacted. Try and take the refuser to court and you will lose your property, your children and your money just to enable, encourage and facilitate the act of the refuser in breaking that covenant. It's only sensible and practical that someone would seek to avoid those legal penalties. It is unreasonable to say to someone, "you must have your finances taken, life's work shredded and your children ruined by ugly lawyers or you must give up sex, comfort and companionship for the next 30 years" and not expect them to seek a "middle road."



(And no, I hve not been divorced over adultery, in case you're--fairly and understandably--wondering if I'm projecting.)

[LadyLiberty]

LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.

That is a convenient way to justify it, one that surely would wax someone's conscience.

I will leave this argument with I am the type of person who takes FULL responsibility for my wrongdoings, and I also refuse to take responsibility for someone else's.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.

That is a convenient way to justify it...

Especially since it's true.

edit--

QUERY: If a spouse sat before your court and begged relief from the marriage because the other spouse repeatedly refused sex would you grant the divorce?

What if the refusing spouse agreed but demanded the legal prescription entitling them to the family home, half the finances, custody of the children, alimony and child support?

[DixieBelle]

Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.

And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.

I wasn't hearing that in what Snuggles posted. I do think a couple in crisis should exhaust all means of counseling before throwing in the towel or complicating things by involving a third party. That's the best way to handle it. But that's not the way it usually gets handled. We could sit here all day and point fingers at one hypothetical spouse or another. Bottom line: every marriage is different and every relationship is complicated in ways an outsider can't possibly understand. At least that's my take on it as a divorced and re-married person.  :innocent:

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.

And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.

I wasn't hearing that in what Snuggles posted. I do think a couple in crisis should exhaust all means of counseling before throwing in the towel or complicating things by involving a third party. That's the best way to handle it. But that's not the way it usually gets handled. We could sit here all day and point fingers at one hypothetical spouse or another. Bottom line: every marriage is different and every relationship is complicated in ways an outsider can't possibly understand. At least that's my take on it as a divorced and re-married person.  :innocent:

Well put ma'am.

[Freeper]

Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.

And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.

The thing is it is so easy to blame the other person when you are that situation. Instead of looking at what you could have done you focus on what the spouse should have done. Then you actually can convince yourself that you were driven to do it.

Cheating is never the answer, relationships are hard enough to keep in tact without having to deal with that.