No-Knock Warrants

[Thor]

When the cops knock on your door to serve a warrant you are legally obligated to open the door, even if you genuinely believe they have the wrong address. Breaking the door is merely a consequence of failing to obey a lawful court and police order; and there is no constitutional right to refuse to refuse a lawful warrant...which is the central point of this thread.

I disagree, MSB. Here's WHY I disagree. If I'm sleeping, I may not hear the knock on the door. Then, the police officers can LEGALLY bust in on me. This has happened to more than a few people, sometimes resulting in a firefight. Nowadays, criminals are acting & dressing like cops, doing the "no knock warrant" intrusion in order to rob a victim. One can't tell the cops from the bad guys any more. For clarity's sake, if the police want to enter my abode and IF they have a warrant, I'd be more than happy to open the door for them.

Then there's the whole issue of no knock warrants, which seem all too easy for the police to acquire.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I disagree, MSB. Here's WHY I disagree. If I'm sleeping, I may not hear the knock on the door. Then, the police officers can LEGALLY bust in on me. This has happened to more than a few people, sometimes resulting in a firefight. Nowadays, criminals are acting & dressing like cops, doing the "no knock warrant" intrusion in order to rob a victim. One can't tell the cops from the bad guys any more. For clarity's sake, if the police want to enter my abode and IF they have a warrant, I'd be more than happy to open the door for them.

Then there's the whole issue of no knock warrants, which seem all too easy for the police to acquire.

No-Knock warrants are a seperate debate but the central point that: if you are are aware of the warant you are obligated to comply, still stands.

As noted below, the penalty for failing to comply with the order to give up the password is far less than the one for child porn.  I still think giving the password is a form of incrimination, different from allowing entry into ones house.

A password is merely a variant form of locking device. If computers could be practically secured by mechanical lock they probably would be but they have evolved PW's as their chief form of security. Maybe if his pass-phrase was "I @#$% girl scouts" a case could be made but the PW in and of itself is not an admission of crime merely a barrier to legally summoned evidence. I find it analogous to a RICO case a suspect's bank info--also initially intended to protect privacy--being disclosed to examine if financial transactions support the nature of alleged crimes.

[Chris_]

No-Knock warrants are a seperate debate but the central point that: if you are are aware of the warant you are obligated to comply, still stands.

If and when the time comes that someone busts down my door, I'm not waiting around to hear if they announce that they have a search/arrest warrant or not.  I live an honest life, and thus have no reason to expect that my local police/sheriff's department would have a need to serve a warrant on me at 2am. 

So, when that door comes down, I don't care if they have a badge on or not, they're an unwanted intruder, and are going to be on the receiving end of a hot, noisy and wet reception.  I sleep with a loaded weapon in easy arms reach, I have heavier weapons loaded and ready in the weapons locker in the closet, and I'm the sort of paranoid **** that actually practices responding to a disturbance from a sound sleep.  I have my wife use a boat horn and a stopwatch; best time from sound asleep to weapons up and scanning for targets is 3.8 seconds.  Average time is 4.7 seconds.  If you can't bust down my door, and go through my living area to the staircase on the far side, climb that stairwell and make it all the way to the end of the hall at the top of those stairs inside of that time, then you've just busted your way into an ambush.

I won't be seeing any badges or warrants until I'm policing the bodies.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Since a few seemed rather anxious to rail about the practice. A summation of the debate:

* Police are entitled to a reasonable expectation of safety in the lawful commission of their jobs. NKW's are a tactic where overwhelming surprise is intended to secure sensitive scenes and subdue presumably dangerous suspects.

* Police being human, are apt to make mistakes.

* If police use a NKW to enter the domicile of an innocent civilian wholly unrelated to a crime that person has a reasonable right to self-defense as they have no way of knowing the difference between the police acting in lawful execution of a warrant or a criminal intruder and waiting to find out could prove disasterous for the innocent person.

* Still, the police use NKW's expecting armed and dangerous suspects and they come with overwhelming force. A citizen reasonably defending himself from an intruder will instead find a dozen or so trained police officers already on guard for armed resistance.

Do police officers sacrifice rights of personal safety when they don a badge?

What percentage of NKW's are wrongfully executed?

Is there an acceptable threshhold before the intrusions become intolerable?

If they are expected sacrifice safety for the good of the percentage of the population whose homes will be accidently entered is it a matter of civil law, criminal law or constitutional law? In other words: if the police mistakenly enter a home of an innocent person should the police department be sued (malpractice), should the officers involved be jailed (criminal culpability) or does the Constitution prohibit the practice altogether?

[rich_t]

Still, the police use NKW's expecting armed and dangerous suspects and they come with overwhelming force. A citizen reasonably defending himself from an intruder will instead find a dozen or so trained police officers already on guard for armed resistance.

And the LEOs will most likely kill the innocent civilian that was merely attempting to protect himself from an violent unexpected intrusion.

[Thor]

I guess that my beef with the No Knock warrants really is the fact that there have been times when the police have entered the wrong address, didn't do enough investigation, etc etc etc. It's NOT rocket science!! (For the record, I was a Reserve Police Officer for five years and made PLENTY of arrests). Too many times, the police are too willing to bypass a little precaution, thoroughly investigate the potential no knock warrant, the address, the person AT that address and have barged in on some unsuspecting "Good guy". IMO, there is NO excuse for screwing up and address, the owner of the address or most of the time, it's occupants. Sure, get a tip, research it, THEN if it all adds up, go for it. But hell, that is rarely done. The police like to act on a tip (whether valid or not) without much regards to personal liberty or innocence.

How would YOU feel if the police broke down YOUR door, arrested you, and then said, "Ooops, my bad" ??? And Lord forbid that you be an advocate of the 2nd Amendment and have guns in your house. Those 5-10 guns instantly becomes an arsenal. 

It all boils down the the five Ps....... Proper planning prevents poor performance. An adage that seems to be practiced by very few in today's world.

[Chris_]

I made my position on forcible entry warrant service - knock or no knock - as clear as I intend to in the original thread. 

Police are entitled to a reasonable expectation of safety in the lawful commission of their jobs. NKW's are a tactic where overwhelming surprise is intended to secure sensitive scenes and subdue presumably dangerous suspects.

Considering that the police have voluntarily taken a job which by definition places them in harms way between the law-abiding public and the law-breaking thug element - many of which are the more violent members of society at large - I wouldn't call that "resonable expectation of safety" a reasonable expectation at all.  We as a society will arm them appropriate to the task at hand, we will armor them to the best that we are able, we'll provide them with the best equipment money can buy, to give them whatever edge over the bad guys we can; but ultimately, the job discription expects them to step up to be human shields where the metal meets the meat, or they are of no use to society. 

Ultimately, it comes back to who the real sovereign(s) are in this society:  the law-abiding citizen.  So long as that citizen remains a law-abiding citizen, his sovereign, individual right to life, liberty, and whatever legally turns his crank is absolute, and defensible with deadly force.  Which brings us back to my stated position.  I jump through an awful lot of damned bureaucratic hoops to remain a law abiding citizen, and knowing that, don't just have a reasonable expectation of safety from intrusion into my home at the wee hours of the night, but an absolute right to it.  An officer that has failed to do his homework before a raid, and blows through my door in the dark of night either because he can't read the address, or because his informant fed him a line of shit, has no resonable expectation of safety on my premises.  My priority is to protect and defend the sovereign rights of of my family to be safe in their own home, and the officers on that tactical team are just going to have to take their chances.

In a free society, the individual, law-abiding citizen has to trump the government agent.  Anything less is a police state, which is just another phrase for tyranny.

[rich_t]

I made my position on forcible entry warrant service - knock or no knock - as clear as I intend to in the original thread. 

Considering that the police have voluntarily taken a job which by definition places them in harms way between the law-abiding public and the law-breaking thug element - many of which are the more violent members of society at large - I wouldn't call that "resonable expectation of safety" a reasonable expectation at all.  We as a society will arm them appropriate to the task at hand, we will armor them to the best that we are able, we'll provide them with the best equipment money can buy, to give them whatever edge over the bad guys we can; but ultimately, the job discription expects them to step up to be human shields where the metal meets the meat, or they are of no use to society. 

Ultimately, it comes back to who the real sovereign(s) are in this society:  the law-abiding citizen.  So long as that citizen remains a law-abiding citizen, his sovereign, individual right to life, liberty, and whatever legally turns his crank is absolute, and defensible with deadly force.  Which brings us back to my stated position.  I jump through an awful lot of damned bureaucratic hoops to remain a law abiding citizen, and knowing that, don't just have a reasonable expectation of safety from intrusion into my home at the wee hours of the night, but an absolute right to it.  An officer that has failed to do his homework before a raid, and blows through my door in the dark of night either because he can't read the address, or because his informant fed him a line of shit, has no resonable expectation of safety on my premises.  My priority is to protect and defend the sovereign rights of of my family to be safe in their own home, and the officers on that tactical team are just going to have to take their chances.

In a free society, the individual, law-abiding citizen has to trump the government agent.  Anything less is a police state, which is just another phrase for tyranny.

Big score.

[Full-Auto]

If and when the time comes that someone busts down my door, I'm not waiting around to hear if they announce that they have a search/arrest warrant or not.  I live an honest life, and thus have no reason to expect that my local police/sheriff's department would have a need to serve a warrant on me at 2am. 

So, when that door comes down, I don't care if they have a badge on or not, they're an unwanted intruder, and are going to be on the receiving end of a hot, noisy and wet reception.  I sleep with a loaded weapon in easy arms reach, I have heavier weapons loaded and ready in the weapons locker in the closet, and I'm the sort of paranoid **** that actually practices responding to a disturbance from a sound sleep.  I have my wife use a boat horn and a stopwatch; best time from sound asleep to weapons up and scanning for targets is 3.8 seconds.  Average time is 4.7 seconds.  If you can't bust down my door, and go through my living area to the staircase on the far side, climb that stairwell and make it all the way to the end of the hall at the top of those stairs inside of that time, then you've just busted your way into an ambush.

I won't be seeing any badges or warrants until I'm policing the bodies.

 

[Full-Auto]

I disagree, MSB. Here's WHY I disagree. If I'm sleeping, I may not hear the knock on the door. Then, the police officers can LEGALLY bust in on me. This has happened to more than a few people, sometimes resulting in a firefight. Nowadays, criminals are acting & dressing like cops, doing the "no knock warrant" intrusion in order to rob a victim. One can't tell the cops from the bad guys any more. For clarity's sake, if the police want to enter my abode and IF they have a warrant, I'd be more than happy to open the door for them.

Then there's the whole issue of no knock warrants, which seem all too easy for the police to acquire.

In a nation of 300 some million people, the police have accidentally entered the wrong home by busting the door in at 2am only a handful of times.  It's not a common occurrence.  When it does happen, those involved need to be severely punished including jail time.

If your door does get busted in at 2am, that's because you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing and they deem you to be a serious threat.  Otherwise, if they have a warrant for something they will come knock on your door and serve it during daylight hours.   If you're running a coke business out of your house and they've seen you coming and going with thugs and guns, your door will get busted down, flash bangs will get tossed in and you'll find yourself completely disoriented while you're being handcuffed.  If you reach for a weapon after the flash-bangs go off and 6-10 guys screaming "POLICE - WARRANT" come storming into your house, you'll die and you may get your spouse and children killed too.

If the planets align and it happens to you (an illegal entry), and you value your life and the lives of those who live with you - comply.  If they've entered your house illegally, rejoice because you've just hit the lottery.  Get a good lawyer and sue them into oblivion. 

[thundley4]

Police: Shooting Of Elderly Woman "Tragic, Unfortunate"

Kathryn Johnston: A Year Later
92-year-old woman's death has done little to curb the use of paramilitary police tactics around the country.

I know the original story is a couple of years old, but it was one that I could easily recall.

[Thor]

In a nation of 300 some million people, the police have accidentally entered the wrong home by busting the door in at 2am only a handful of times.  It's not a common occurrence.  When it does happen, those involved need to be severely punished including jail time.

If your door does get busted in at 2am, that's because you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing and they deem you to be a serious threat.  Otherwise, if they have a warrant for something they will come knock on your door and serve it during daylight hours.   If you're running a coke business out of your house and they've seen you coming and going with thugs and guns, your door will get busted down, flash bangs will get tossed in and you'll find yourself completely disoriented while you're being handcuffed.  If you reach for a weapon after the flash-bangs go off and 6-10 guys screaming "POLICE - WARRANT" come storming into your house, you'll die and you may get your spouse and children killed too.

If the planets align and it happens to you (an illegal entry), and you value your life and the lives of those who live with you - comply.  If they've entered your house illegally, rejoice because you've just hit the lottery.  Get a good lawyer and sue them into oblivion. 

Only a handful??  Perhaps you need to look at this map: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

It's a LOT more than a handful.

[Full-Auto]

Police: Shooting Of Elderly Woman "Tragic, Unfortunate"

Kathryn Johnston: A Year Later
92-year-old woman's death has done little to curb the use of paramilitary police tactics around the country.

I know the original story is a couple of years old, but it was one that I could easily recall.

I didn't say it never happened, conversely I said it rarely happens.  If you can find 100 stories, then we might have something close to a common occurrence, but in a nation of 300 million that's still not all that common.

[thundley4]

I didn't say it never happened, conversely I said it rarely happens.  If you can find 100 stories, then we might have something close to a common occurrence, but in a nation of 300 million that's still not all that common.

It looks close to 100 or so on the map at the link above.

[Thor]

333 throughout the US according to their stats.

[Chris_]

333 throughout the US according to their stats.

And to think that it won't climb precipitously under Dear Leader's administration is to whistle hopefully past the graveyard.

[AllosaursRus]

And the LEOs will most likely kill the innocent civilian that was merely attempting to protect himself from an violent unexpected intrusion.

Unfortunately this has been the case on at least 2 occasions that I know of.

As I have in the past knocked a few doors down in pursuit of skippers, It is my policy to do daylight surveillance in order to obtain that I do indeed have the right suspect.

In the case of the No Knocks that resulted in the death of innocent civilians, the job was turned over to swat teams that were not familiar with the suspects. This in my opinion is never the way to do things. They should at least have included the detective that had done the initial investigation. If they had these people would still be alive as they would have known they had the wrong house.

It has been my experience that most swat teams and their members are a close knit, no outsider, type of unit. This results in mistakes being made and innocents being put in jepordy.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I made my position on forcible entry warrant service - knock or no knock - as clear as I intend to in the original thread. 

Considering that the police have voluntarily taken a job which by definition places them in harms way between the law-abiding public and the law-breaking thug element - many of which are the more violent members of society at large - I wouldn't call that "resonable expectation of safety" a reasonable expectation at all.  We as a society will arm them appropriate to the task at hand, we will armor them to the best that we are able, we'll provide them with the best equipment money can buy, to give them whatever edge over the bad guys we can; but ultimately, the job discription expects them to step up to be human shields where the metal meets the meat, or they are of no use to society. 

Ultimately, it comes back to who the real sovereign(s) are in this society:  the law-abiding citizen.  So long as that citizen remains a law-abiding citizen, his sovereign, individual right to life, liberty, and whatever legally turns his crank is absolute, and defensible with deadly force.  Which brings us back to my stated position.  I jump through an awful lot of damned bureaucratic hoops to remain a law abiding citizen, and knowing that, don't just have a reasonable expectation of safety from intrusion into my home at the wee hours of the night, but an absolute right to it.  An officer that has failed to do his homework before a raid, and blows through my door in the dark of night either because he can't read the address, or because his informant fed him a line of shit, has no resonable expectation of safety on my premises.  My priority is to protect and defend the sovereign rights of of my family to be safe in their own home, and the officers on that tactical team are just going to have to take their chances.

In a free society, the individual, law-abiding citizen has to trump the government agent.  Anything less is a police state, which is just another phrase for tyranny.

Very well said but allow me to pry deeper:

* You state the police have to accept an amount of risk as part of their job description. Granted. However, are they ALWAYS required to serve a warrant in a manner that may allow a suspect to arm himself and/or destroy evidence?

* Would disregard for LEO safety degrade law enforcement in the long-term?

* Your point about who the ultimate sovereigns of society is particularly well made. However, when executing a warrant the police are acting on behalf of society, i.e. society has deemed that the meth lab is a danger that needs to be removed for a host of reasons...BUT...a meth gang cn be particularly violent and well armed and prepapred to destroy evidence.

* I'll repeat my original question which seems missed by all: are NKW's to be banned outright? Subject to higher levels of scrutiny?

* What is the best means of remediation when a NKW execution goes awry: criminal, civil or banned outright?

I'm not picking a fight with you or anyone else; I'm genuinely ambivalent. I think NKWs have a proper time and place BUT they--like all other endeavors--are subject to abuse and error and considering the nature of NKWs the potential for mistakes being lethal mistakes is tragically high.

I think they should be used with great reservation. A single controlling authority should be in place to request a NKW that will have to meet specific criteria, i.e. known or probably violent offender, unreasonable risk of the destruction of evidence etc. That single controlling authority is then under the onus that if the wrong residence is served/innocents are hurt his career is pretty much in the toilet. I've heard tales of a naval CO whose DD bumped a resupply vessel while underway and his first comment was, "Well, there goes my carrier." Obviously gross negligience or malicious malpractice could earn criminal time.

[Thor]

My girlfriend's father was the victim of a no-knock warrant. (The man is ex-Air Force, Golden Gloves Boxer and a 32nd Degree Mason. They were at the wrong address.)  MSB, you hit on a key phrase, "I think they should be used with great reservation." In today's world, they're not used with much reservation at all. KNWs have a purpose and there is a time and place for everything. Where I see the problem is that the cops don't fully vet all of their suspects. Then, we have the SWAT teams, which seem to be deployed, just because it's not safe out there. Of course, with all of the laws imposed on ALL of us in today's world, it's really become ridiculous. Like I said earlier, I was a cop. A reserve Cop, but I performed the full duties of a police officer. I'd rather see three guilty people walk than one innocent get their rights trampled. As I've read, people are LUCKY to be alive after a KNW, let alone get something as trivial as an apology. We won't even get into the psychological manifestations and physical damage to people & property that seem to be a result of a KNW. I DO think that if the police & judge get it wrong, they need to be held liable. If bodily injury occurs to an innocent, then it's criminal. If it's just some damage to a door or a window, then it's civil.