'Baby Doc' Duvalier back in Haiti after long exile

[txradioguy]

Former Haitian dictator Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier returned Sunday to Haiti nearly 25 years after a popular uprising against his brutal dictatorship forced him into exile, a surprising and perplexing move that comes as his country struggles with a political crisis and the stalled effort to recover from last year's earthquake.

Duvalier, part of a father-and-son dynasty that presided over one of the darkest chapters in Haitian history, arrived on an Air France jet in a jacket and tie to hugs from supporters at the Port-au-Prince airport. He was calm as he was led into the immigration office. He left the airport without making a statement to journalists, waving to a crowd of more than 200 supporters as he got into an SUV.

"He is happy to be back in this country, back in his home," said Mona Beruaveau, a candidate for Senate in a Duvalierist party who spoke to the former dictator inside the immigration office. "He is tired after a long trip."

Beruaveau said he would give a news conference on Monday.

Later, Duvalier appeared on a balcony of the Karibe Hotel and waved to supporters and journalists outside. All he said was "tomorrow, tomorrow," apparently in reference to the news conference.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/16/baby-doc-duvalier-haiti-long-exile/

[H Minus]

Since he a brutal dicatator, I'm sure the state department heartily approves of him.

[JohnnyReb]

Since he a brutal dicatator, I'm sure the state department heartily approves of him.

Lets see....25 years ago you say....Reagan was president...oh hell yeah the left loves him and Obama will see that he retakes his rightful place....they are burtha's afterall.

[DumbAss Tanker]

It is all too possible that the State Department and Obama will see him as a useful "Rehabilitated" strong man to restore order in chaotic Haiti.

[H Minus]

It is all too possible that the State Department and Obama will see him as a useful "Rehabilitated" strong man to restore order in chaotic Haiti.

I'm sure madamn commie is ready to pronouce him the savior of haiti.

[JohnnyReb]

I'm sure madamn commie is ready to pronouce him the savior of haiti.

WOW!!!!!!...you got got a big one.

[Godot showed up]

I visited Haiti when I was 14. Baby Doc was in power then. My parents took me along--what does a 14-year-old know about dictatorships? We stayed at a nice hotel (Royal Haitian something-or-other), and naturally we were shieled from all the nastiness as much as possible. Still, when you drove to and from the airport, the poverty was visible and awful--people living in shacks and lean-to's without electricity or clean water or plumbing or anything, really. I remember visiting the Iron Market, being mobbed by beggars; I gave out some dollars but that just made them crowd me quadruple.

We also drove through Petionville and it was beautiful and a well-off suburban community. I'm not sure what this all means, except, horrendous as living conditions were for the so msny, and brutal as the dictatorship was, it was STILL better than Aristide and then all that followed him. At least there wasn't utter anarchy, with roving gangs of political murderers really fighting for their share of the criminal turf and not "politics." There wasn't any "necklacing" (unless the ton ton macoute were doing it in private, but I gather their methods were more designed to extend agony, and putting a rubber tire around someone's neck and setting it on fire would have been too quick and crude for them). Awful as the ton ton macoute were, they kept order. Of course, you could say the same of Saddam Hussien's various secret police/torture agencies. but the ton ton macoutes didn't murder MILLIONS. Sometimes  a matter of magnitude produces a difference in kind.












Edited for dopey typos.

[txradioguy]

I visited Haiti when I was 14. Babcy Doc was in powr then. My parents took me along--what does a 14-year-old know about dictatorships? We stayed at a nice hotel (Royal Haitian something-or-other), and naturally we were shieled from all the nastiness as much as possible. Still, when you drove to and from the airport, the poverty was visible and awful--people living in shacks and lean-to's without electricity of clean water or plumbing or anything, really. I remember visiting the Iron Market, being mobbed bt beggars; I gave out some dollars but that just made them crowd me quadruple.

We also drove through Petionville and it was beautiful and a well-off suburban community. I'm not sure what this all means, except, horrendous as living conditions were for the so msny, and brutal as the dictatorship was, it was STILL better than Aristide and then all that followed him. At least there wasn't utter anarchy, with roving gangs of political murderers really fighting for their share of the criminal turf and not "politics." There wasn't any "necklacing" (unless the ton ton macoute were doing it in private, but I gather their methods were more designed to extend agony, and putting a rubber tire around someone's neck and setting it on fire would have been too quick and crude for them). Awful as the ton ton macoute were, they kept order. Of course, you could say the same of Saddam Hussien's various secret police/torture agencies. but the ton ton macoutes didn't murder MILLIONS. Sometimes  a matter of magnitude produces a difference in kind.

That's the equivalent of saying "Yeah he was a bad guy...but at least the trains ran on time.

A little bit of info about the Tonton Macoute:

Duvalier employed the Tonton Macoutes in a reign of terror against any opponents, including those who proposed progressive social systems.[1] Those who spoke out against Duvalier would disappear at night, or were sometimes attacked in broad daylight. Many times the corpses were put on display, often hung in trees for everyone to see. As for the family members that tried to remove the bodies for proper burial, they were never seen again. They were believed to have been abducted and killed by the MVSN, who were called the Tonton Macoutes as a result. Anyone who challenged the MVSN risked assassination. Their unrestrained state terrorism was accompanied by corruption, extortion and personal aggrandizement among the leadership.

Just sayin...

[Ptarmigan]

I read that Duvalier closed Haiti to the outside world. One reason why Haiti is so poor.

[Godot showed up]

That's the equivalent of saying "Yeah he was a bad guy...but at least the trains ran on time.

A little bit of info about the Tonton Macoute:

Just sayin...

Not exactly Tx--I disagree with nothing you're saying about the ton ton macoutes. They were guilty of many extrajudicial murders, and incredibly awful ones. I'm just saying 1) what followed Baby Doc and his single group of monsters was anarchy and MANY groups of monsters, 2) the ton ton macoutes were not indiscriminate, and 3, their crimes never approcahed the sheer magnitude of Saddam Hussein's or similar, not just brutal, oppressive dictators, but mass-murdering dictators.

The bottom line is that daily life got infinitely worse for many more Haitians after Baby Doc was deposed. They became even more likely to die violenty, and got even poorer. I suppose it comes down to the contingent and singular events of history--one country is not another country. Parallels aren't nearly as important as what actually happened. I don't know enough about post-1943 Italy, and I'm sure there was much unpleasantness and score settling, but I doubt it was relatively worse compared to Mussolini's period as Aristide's was compared to Baby Doc's. Of course, it doesn't hurt having the biggest combined military forces existing in the world to help you keep order in a provisional government. I would venture that that's where it all goes wrong for Haiti, where Italy had something important and substantive that Haiti did not--Haiti needed a military occupation post-Baby Doc, even though it wasn't at war. The country was never capable of a peaceful transition of power; maybe Italy wouldn't have been without the Allies behind Pietro Badoglio, although there were social institutions making Italy coherent even in chaos which never existed in Haiti (the church, the monarchy, and family-based criminal groups like the mafia).


Trains aren't a matter of life and death. Not usually.

[DumbAss Tanker]

As long as they aren't headed into the Polish countryside, anyway.

But, the thing is, these are the chaotic conditions that do give rise to dictators and with good cause:  anarchy in the streets, warring factions killing anyone who pisses them off, gangsterism, a failure of governmental services and a power vacuum...conditions where it is actually an honest-to-God improvement to have one big gangster in charge and occupying the entire field, rather than thirty competing gangs of them.  It is not, despite the disordered ravings of our DU counterparts, the proliferation of Conservative thought. 

[Doc Savage]

Has Jimmy from Plains booked a flight yet?

[Godot showed up]

....conditions where it is actually an honest-to-God improvement to have one big gangster in charge and occupying the entire field, rather than thirty competing gangs of them. 

Tanks Tank--that's an elegant and succint summation of my long-winded point making.

It really feels crappy arguing for the utility of sadistic, dictatorial monsters. It's just when you see what the alternative can be...Sometimes we can get in the habit of thinking peaceful transition of power is the rule, because we've had so much of it in the US, but it's the exception for most of the world's history and always has been.

But I suppose that, in the end, it was worth the bad times afterward to be rid of the Duvaliers (depends on what happened to you with Arisitide "in charge"). I suppose. I mean, the Haitians are still poorer than ash (you need to have more to be poorer than dirt; at least you can grow things in dirt), but the reigns of terror seem to be moving into the past.

Meanwhile, he should get the hell out of there. He IS a relic of a dead past, and not needed or wanted.

[olde north church]

Not exactly Tx--I disagree with nothing you're saying about the ton ton macoutes. They were guilty of many extrajudicial murders, and incredibly awful ones. I'm just saying 1) what followed Baby Doc and his single group of monsters was anarchy and MANY groups of monsters, 2) the ton ton macoutes were not indiscriminate, and 3, their crimes never approcahed the sheer magnitude of Saddam Hussein's or similar, not just brutal, oppressive dictators, but mass-murdering dictators.

The bottom line is that daily life got infinitely worse for many more Haitians after Baby Doc was deposed. They became even more likely to die violenty, and got even poorer. I suppose it comes down to the contingent and singular events of history--one country is not another country. Parallels aren't nearly as important as what actually happened. I don't know enough about post-1943 Italy, and I'm sure there was much unpleasantness and score settling, but I doubt it was relatively worse compared to Mussolini's period as Aristide's was compared to Baby Doc's. Of course, it doesn't hurt having the biggest combined military forces existing in the world to help you keep order in a provisional government. I would venture that that's where it all goes wrong for Haiti, where Italy had something important and substantive that Haiti did not--Haiti needed a military occupation post-Baby Doc, even though it wasn't at war. The country was never capable of a peaceful transition of power; maybe Italy wouldn't have been without the Allies behind Pietro Badoglio, although there were social institutions making Italy coherent even in chaos which never existed in Haiti (the church, the monarchy, and family-based criminal groups like the mafia).


Trains aren't a matter of life and death. Not usually.

Say what you will about Mussolini but not a single Jew went up the chimney until he was deposed.

[Godot showed up]

Just heard on the news that Duvalier was taken into police custody.

[DefiantSix]

Just heard on the news that Duvalier was taken into police custody.

 

[Chris_]

Now why would they go and do something like that?