The Kenosha shooter's self defense argument and mass shooters

[dutch508]

Star Member Yavin4 (30,145 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213991710

The Kenosha shooter's self defense argument and mass shooters

So, I've read quite a few posts saying that the 17 year old will get off on self defense. Thinking about it further, if that's true, then couldn't a mass shooter claim the same defense.

Hey, the shooter walked into a school with a gun, and when people tried to take it from him, he fired to protect myself. The Kenosha shooter shot randomly into the crowd. No, he didn't. All three persons hit were in the process of attacking Kyle. Watch the video if you think I am kidding.

The Zimmerman self defense argument is a sign of a society lacking civilization.

DUmpmonkiez try to compare apples and orangutans.

Star Member BKDem (908 posts)

1. Zimmerman and the Kenosha shooter were hunting human beings, just like school shooters

To say they were defending themselves is an abomination.

 

Amishman (2,792 posts)

37. Zimmerman is the best parallel for this

The question will be were those confronted and/or attempting to disarming attackers or were they justified in doing so?

Reposting this from another discussion, it is inaccurate to say the little bastard fired randomly into a crowd. He fired only at individuals who were confronting him, and at very close distance.

He fired seven shots (there are other gunshots on the videos that aren't his).

Four were at his first victim at extremely close range. The first victim had been chasing him and had tried throwing something at him. Not random.

There is a gap of the second pursuit

The fifth shot was at the man who was leaping to disarm him. He missed.

The sixth was at the skateboarder who was also attempting to disarm him. He fatally shot this victim in the chest.

The seventh shot was at a man who as also attempting to stop him. He took off a significant part of the man's arm.

There will be a ton of debate on if these were self defense, or if his presence there even allows a self defense argument - but the shots were not random.

We are headed towards a Martin / Zimmerman esque mess over who is the aggressor, who is allowed to use lethal force, and when. This is going to be extremely ugly and muddled.

 

Star Member Kaleva (25,349 posts)

2. It's legal to open carry on the streets of Kenosha but illegal to do so in a school.

Star Member dsc (48,754 posts)

3. It was not legal for that kid to have that gun

he wasn't 18. I am tired of people justifying this lawbreaking white thug. If he were black no one would be defending him.

Star Member Yavin4 (30,145 posts)

22. How are the protestors on the street supposed to know in real time that his first shooting...

was "justified"? All you know is that this person is running down the street with an automatic weapon waving it around and firing. To them, they were trying to subdue a mass shooter.

If this kid gets off on self defense, then most mass shooters should be released as well.

****ing idiot.

sl8 (5,992 posts)

26. And before, according to a witness.

The witness quoted in the criminal complaint said that Rosenbaum (victim 1), chased and struggled with Rittenhouse beore he was shot.

I 've seen videos that claim to show Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse, but it wasn't clear to me, at least after a casual viewing. Maybe a more careful viewing would reveal something.

Star Member Mister Ed (3,441 posts)

44. Yes. There is video footage showing him being chased before firing his first shots.

What's unknown to almost anyone is what gave rise to that first chase, and that will probably be pivotal in the trial. I saw video posted on DU last Tuesday or Wednesday that showed Rittenhouse being chased across the used-car lot, and an object - possibly a beverage bottle in a plastic bag - being thrown in his direction.

That video also appeared to me to show that Rosenbaum was not near Rittenhouse when he was shot, and was not headed toward Rittenhouse - as further evidenced by the fact that the bullet entered the right side of his skull.

I've searched and searched for that eleven-minute video compilation in the past few days in order to bolster my recollections, but I haven't found it. I think the subject line included the words "you decide". I'm wondering if the post may have been deleted because it also included a horrific view of Rosenbaum's head wound as onlookers struggled desperately to provide first aid.

These details will come out in court. What will not be settled in the trial is the larger question of whether a self-defense argument is nullified in cases such as we've seen in recent years where a person arms himself and then goes out looking for someone to pick a fight with, knowing that once the fight escalates he's free to kill. On the surface, that appears to have been Rittenhouse's M.O.

Star Member Kaleva (25,349 posts)

8. So if a guy walks into a school armed, you wait till he points and shoots at someone?

 

GusBob (5,993 posts)

10. No

Guns arent allowed in schools

Star Member Hoyt (44,994 posts)

12. Had Smerconish CNN on. They had a reporter from NYT (I think) who has spent days

analyzing film.

It does show the person Rittenhouse shot in the arm carrying a pistol. Also, protesters chasing him. I'm not sure what caused the first shooting, and that will be key.

Personally, I'd lock the little police wannabe, white wing militia Prick up just because he showed up at protest with a rifle, wears his cap backwards, and is clearly a POS. But the trial will be interesting.

One thing for sure, it's time to outlaw gunz at protests.

yeah... **** the laws... let's just kill the little bastard because we don't like him... 

Star Member Hoyt (44,994 posts)

20. I think it will depend on what happened in first shooting. Anything after that, could be viewed as

protesters trying to stop a murderer. Or, if the Prick was "attacked" first -- and then shot that attacker -- I think the Prick might get off for the shooting part. Now, showing up at a protest, armed, parading around, etc., ought to be crime in itself.

For some reason, I have missed what happened to the first person killed. The other person was trying to stop the armed militia Prick with his skateboard, or the defense will try to make it appear he was attacking the armed loser.

Somebody needs to stop this junk before it gets worse.

Star Member Hoyt (44,994 posts)

39. Look, I don't like Rittenhouse. But, if the first protester attacked Rittenhouse, that could be

a justifiable shooting. I don't know enough about that first shooting to say.

But, if the Prick was attacked and supposedly fired in "self-defense," then ran, his defense team will claim he thought he was being attacked similarly by others, including the guy with a pistol. On the other hand, if Rittenhouse just shot the first guy for no reason other than he could, it would be hard to claim self-defense in the other shootings.

Again, I think carrying a gun to a protest ought to be outlawed immediately. I also think Rittenhouse went looking/hoping for trouble.

Polybius (4,195 posts)

35. Wow, please make this an OP

Most of us had no idea he was armed.

The DUmpmonkie is talking about the leftist with the pistol. Who drew it on the kid after he was knocked to the ground.

 

Star Member Hoyt (44,994 posts)

41. That was the point Smerconish kept making -- People ought to stop jumping to conclusions before

evidence is in.

I'm certainly not convinced it's self-defense, but I can see how the defense team can make a case. On the other hand, Rittenhouse went looking for trouble, setting this all in motion.

Star Member tenderfoot (5,062 posts)

25. It figures that some here insist on defending that asshole....

so ****ing typical.

 

Star Member Happy Hoosier (1,821 posts)

28. So basically, the argument is...

That if someone arms themselves and places themselves in a situation where a confrontation is likely, then it’s perfectly okay to just fire away in “self-defense.” So this is Alex Jones’ plan to kill protestors in a “defensive way.”

**** that.

Star Member Yavin4 (30,145 posts)

29. Not just protestors. ANY potential hostile environment ANY WHERE.

A non-White, poor neighborhood. A church. Any place where they may be some resistance to you carrying a gun.

rockfordfile (5,743 posts)

32. There's no self-defense.

 a jury would easily find the pos guilty

Lets talk about the guy would gave his life trying to stop him. He only had a skateboard against a pos a gun. I consider what that right-wing terrorist had a assault weapon. They're using them like terrorist overseas use a AK-47.

 

Star Member Takket (12,413 posts)

46. self-defense is a crock of shit.......

you can't insert yourself fully armed into a situation where another person could expect or feel threatened by your presence then claim "self-defense"

for self-defense you need to be essentially "minding your own business" before someone becomes a threat to you.

to use an extreme example, don't walk fully armed into an al qaeda training camp yelling "allah sucks!" and expect to claim self defense when they come out and try to shoot you.

 

[ROCKURWORLD]

I think 2 or 3 of the people shot were commies with criminal history.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=902655980143909&extid=loteHSWSS29iM2it

[Texacon]

This has Sandmann written all over it.

KC

[Crazy Horse]

This has Sandmann written all over it.

KC

And the same attorney Will Wood

[Muddling 2]

You know,  when Hoyt is sounding like the voice of reason........

[Ptarmigan]

I think 2 or 3 of the people shot were commies with criminal history.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=902655980143909&extid=loteHSWSS29iM2it

All 3 have quite a laundry list.

Wisconsin Court Search
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/case.html

Joseph D Rosenbaum-Arrested on 7/20/2020 and 7/30/2020
7/20/2020-Faced 2 Counts
Battery
Domestic Abuse
Disorderly Conduct
Domestic Abuse

7/30/2020-Faced 1 Count
Bail Jumping-Misdemeanor

Anthony Huber-Arrested on 12/7/2012 and 4/19/2018
12/7/2020-Faced 6 Counts
2nd-Degree Recklessly Endangering Safety
Use of a Dangerous Weapon
Domestic Abuse
Strangulation and Suffocation
False Imprisonment
Battery
Disorderly Conduct

4/19/2018-Faced 2 Counts
Battery
Repeater
Domestic Abuse
Disorderly Conduct

Gaige Grosskreutz-Arrested on 8/27/2015, 4/22/2016, and 11/5/2019. He is a civil defendant on 11/17/2015.

8/27/2015-Faced 1 Count
Operating While Suspended

11/17/2015-Civil Case With Apartment
Eviction

4/22/2016-Faced 1 Count
Go Armed with Firearm While Intoxicated

11/5/2019-Faced 1 Counts
Loud Noises
Obedience to Officers

[Texacon]

Self defense gets easier to prove when there are dozens of videos where the protestors yanked people off the street or out of cars and beat them within an inch of their lives. A skateboard IS a deadly weapon. That seems to be the weapon of choice for these fascists. They apparently work pretty well for smashing windows, too.

KC

[DUmpsterDiver]

The left will be reduced to a plea bargain for "firearm discharge" in town and will be denied even that.  These leftists are in for some real if they keep pushing this nonsense.  Dang they are just plain dumb!

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

"
Star Member BKDem (908 posts)

1. Zimmerman and the Kenosha shooter were hunting human beings, just like school shooters

To say they were defending themselves is an abomination."
Ugh. That is such a crock.
George Zimmerman was part of a neighborhood watch, and while on patrol, he noticed Trayvon Martin acting suspiciously and followed him from a distance. After a while of this, Trayvon jumped him.
Zimmerman only shot Trayvon as an absolute last resort, while Trayvon was trying to beat him to death. He at first tried screaming for help, and only used his gun when it became clear that help wouldn't arrive in time.
He didn't even realize Trayvon was dead until afterwards when police were questioning him about it. That means he wasn't deliberately shooting to kill. This attitude is a noted contrast to Trayvon, who while brutally attacking Zimmerman, was heard loudly shouting, "You gonna die tonight, b***h!"

[DumbAss Tanker]

It's a ridiculous comparison.  The fact that anyone could take it seriously is a mark of what sort of brainless turd it takes to be a committed Democrat.

[SVPete]

Neighborhood Watch is not hunting human beings.

Protecting property, something security guards are paid to do, is not hunting human beings. How many DUpipo, besides kpete, live in gated communities whose gates are controlled by paid security guards?

[FiddyBeowulf]

Star Member Takket (12,413 posts)

46. self-defense is a crock of shit.......

you can't insert yourself fully armed into a situation where another person could expect or feel threatened by your presence then claim "self-defense"

for self-defense you need to be essentially "minding your own business" before someone becomes a threat to you.

to use an extreme example, don't walk fully armed into an al qaeda training camp yelling "allah sucks!" and expect to claim self defense when they come out and try to shoot you.

So....it is ok to blame the victim?

[Texacon]

Star Member Takket (12,413 posts)

46. self-defense is a crock of shit.......

you can't insert yourself fully armed into a situation where another person could expect or feel threatened by your presence then claim "self-defense"

for self-defense you need to be essentially "minding your own business" before someone becomes a threat to you.

to use an extreme example, don't walk fully armed into an al qaeda training camp BLM riot yelling "allah sucks!"  Wearing a MAGA hat and expect to claim self defense when they come out and try to shoot you.

There, I updated it to reflect current situations.

KC

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

https://youtu.be/ts43EskooaA

[SVPete]

Star Member Takket (12,413 posts)

46. self-defense is a crock of shit.......

you can't insert yourself fully armed into a situation where another person could expect or feel threatened by your presence then claim "self-defense"

So according to Star Moron Takket, "self-defense" can only be argued if one was unarmed and unable to defend oneself. Got it, Star Moron, .

[Texacon]

https://youtu.be/ts43EskooaA

Good video.  Even if they were trying to take the rifle away from Kyle, what were their intentions once they had it in their possession?  I think all 3 of them, or at least 2 of them, were felons. 

There is a good chance if Kyle had relinquished his weapon he would have become one of those statistics about how "you're more likely to be killed by your own gun" bull crap.

KC

[I_B_Perky]

This is the current dem meme from their masters. I've seen it on other sites and comments on news articles.

[ADsOutburst]

[Delmar]

The Ballad of the Kenosha Kid

https://www.brighteon.com/6619323d-b9fb-446d-93f3-53833055e5d6