The mind of the insane...underground panther says no.

[Carl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3498718

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:04 PM
Original message
What happened to the right to say NO?   
   Advertisements [?]

Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 09:38 PM by undergroundpanther
Child Development:
It is no coincidence that the first appearance of life-long memory and abstract self-recognition ("ego") comes in the third year, right after the discovery and common fascination with the word "no". I am not-you, not-that, not-it are essential foundations of self.

Civilization Development:
Tribal peoples, even as recently as modern Japanese, almost always identify themselves in relational and historical terms: son-of-that-one, father-of-that-one, keeper of this-item, hunter-of that-game, weaver-of- that-fabric, etc. But in the West we habitually refer to ourselves as "I", unqualified, and for very good reason: through that word we reserve the right to identify ourselves as individuals with choice and identity outside all roles and history. The very foundation of "I" is "no": I am _not_ my history,not my job, not your ideas about my history, not even my own ideas about my history.

Conclusion:
Both in theory ("we know you best", "for your own good" etc.) and in practice (frequent de facto mandatory drugging and commitment) psychiatry denies this word "no". Psychiatry and its industry demolish the foundations of healthy being while claiming the opposite. A legal definition of the right (of both parties) to say "no" is absolutely essential to ethical psychiatry.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/327/7429/1449#4...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's not just psychiatry that has this problem, it is our culture and civilization, this way of life we have to live that has this problem and perpetuates it.
A legal definition of the right (of both parties) to say "no" is absolutely essential to an ethical SOCIETY!.

This ethical problem is best illustrated by American soldiers signing up for the military because they cannot get work,or decent pay, going to another country ,burning a village down,bombing a town or conquering their "hearts and minds" and not being clear as to WHY they are being demanded to do this..This power grabbing by authorities and using the soldiers as hired guns is denying the other the right to BE and to refuse the offer of being dominated and getting their resources extracted(stolen) and people traumatized by another country. The lame excuses for such domination like fighting terrorism",removing a dictator, or to bring "democracy" ..Are euphemisms for bullying and forcing to submit.

When direct or indirect rationalizations of that kind of authoritarian abuse of power and force is seen as OK,"normal" or even "necessary",that means our society is made coercive by it's distorted hierarchical "nature".
A coercive culture is not FREE when it privileges some and denies others,the right to say NO, or as retaliation for refusal dxenies them the means to survive.

The FORCE behind coercion more visible to those subjected to double standards,usually people presented culturally as inferiors as determined by the dominant class. Be they minorities,poor,immigrants,prisoners, disabled,crazy, cultural deviants,young,rebellious,radical,weird,dangerous,unattractive or any people getting in the way of what the dominant class wants.
Our society has an issue with people saying NO to requests and demands made upon them by authorities..

This means our society is uncomfortable with having real freedom,fairness and responsibility..and the people do not respect or understand what freedom IS and MEANS and REQUIRES from each of us,to co exist in a negotiable peace and fairness that is mutually beneficial to all..

Freedom is GONE..When people are not allowed to say NO and cannot refuse a request,a demand ,an expectation,or make a contract with another party and change it to make it beneficial to them.

(Ever read a cell phone contract?,Even through the legalese it is clear you have no choices.Once you sign up, you must obey and pay whatever they say. This is written all over it.The phone company is making demands and reserving rights for itself at YOUR expense,it is a list of obligations,NOT a true Contract...because you cannot negotiate it's terms with the company at all.)

The involuntary coercion runs so deep, it fears people using the word NO, I do not want______.It fears demand for mutual contracting,i.e freedom of decision and choice for all parties involved..

Look at each examples of these NO statements and add in the (or else) society would imply if you refused the demand,really.

NO,I do not want to work for you.
No I will not pay taxes if that is what it is used for.
NO,I don't want to sign up for"selective service"
NO,I do not want to pay that much for that.
NO,I will not let__get away with it.
NO,You are not welcome here.
NO,You cannot come in.
NO,You cannot stop by later.
NO You cannot call me on my phone.
NO,I don't want to spend a few minutes of my time....
NO,I will not back down.
NO,I will not be restrained because of 'protocol'.
NO,I do not want to pay attention to you.
NO,I do not want to live that way.
NO,I do not desire that.
NO,I do not want to talk,act,dress,behave,believe or be like you because you demand I do it or everyone else thinks it's normal or good to do it.
NO,I don't want to look at you.
NO,I do not want to tolerate being abused, bullied harassed coerced or forced because others can 'hack it' or have 'thicker skins'.
NO,I do not want to subscribe or get the package 'deal'.
NO,I will not submit,obey or comply with those demands.
NO,I will not stay here.
NO,I will not move along.
NO,I do not want to change.
NO,I will not stay this way.
NO,I will not stop creating,writing drawing,etc. just because you are offended.( being offended is an aesthetic dislike it is not the same thing as being HURT btw.)
NO,I will not shut up.
NO,I will not be nice/appropriate to abusers.
NO,I won't go along with you or your ideas/plans/schemes/ policies.
NO,I am not interested.
NO,I will not believe you or believe what you call truth..
NO,I will not"try it" because you asked or demanded I try it.
NO,I will not "open my mind" or try it because "I never tried it before" or you think I might end up "liking it".
NO,I will not shut down my own feelings/emotional expressions.
NO,I disagree.
NO,I do not want to take that medication.
NO,I do not want to give out that information.

In our tamed lives we are taught from cradle to grave to be helpless.Immersed in a world of force in the face of demands of others on many levels it shapes what we see and do not see when looking at a problem...This is because we are used to being constantly coerced involuntarily to do it____ way(or else).Often the coercion comes from an authority figure,parent,church,workplace,bully,corporation"policy,teachers and a grading system,the illusion of"ownership",the marketplace,the system,the government.

Many more sources of involuntary coercive demands impacts everyone in this culture still issuing demands we comply with them everyday..So much coercion is done against our wills, so often,we are not used to not having a chance to say no,because the coercion has become invisible and normalized. We just DO it.

We do not stop to think do we WANT or NOT?
Often the nature of the demand is such we are not even allowed time to consider WHY we would want or not for ourself.
There is a lot of involuntary coercion that goes on day-to day that isn't about co existing with other people in peace in this society.

Some coercion is involuntary per se, because it comes from the fact we co-exist in a world with others,and that kind of coercion is usually two sided and negotiable.It is contractual and mutual it can be changed it allows room for choice making..


The involuntary coercion that robs us of freedom is neither mutual or amendable. Our culture is rife with involuntary coercion. The effects of this habitual disallowing of us to say NO effects US.
With no way to say NO,a demand denies our freedom to find out who we are,what we want,what we prefer, to BE ourselves and make our own decisions for ourselves because coercion creates the appearance there are no other really viable alternatives to choose from,and you can't make a new one yourself, because it is basically disguised FORCE..When the right to say No is denied us,by force, however accommodating,deceptive, and manipulating it appears still,our freedom is denied us by force. When freedom to opt out,refuse,say NO,is denied us..so is peace,exploration,risk,diversity,creativity,expressiveness,will, effecting changes in our lives and community,and true empowered self actualization as well.
We never become true adults.We never become a people both equal and unique, because we are not permitted to decide,risk,negotiate,or innovate anything about the social 'contract' that is not really a contract anymore once the freedom to say NO is gone,and the corporate empire decides everything for us and leaves us illusory consumer "choices".

Think about all the times we are denied the right to refuse? It's staggering how much we are coerced into things we would rather not...if you stop and think about it.

 

Warpy  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Civil disobedience
   is the simple act of taking back the right to say "NO!" to things we know to be dead wrong, whether they're nanny state drug laws or laws that restrict our freedom to assemble and voice our political opinions.

Civil disobedience is our first and best weapon against the would-be aristocracy in this country who want to destroy everything this country has ever stood for.

It's high time we rediscover it. K&R.
   

You ain`t got the balls.

TheGoldenRule  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R.
   Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 09:39 PM by TheGoldenRule
I've been saying NO on this forum and people don't like it.

They'd rather settle for less which blows my mind.

Sorry, NO CAN DO.

Sorry the position of saviour has been taken by this guy named Obama.
You will have to wait a bit longer.

angrycarpenter  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have said no and suffered for it
   Saying no carries the treat of retaliation. I have cut-off my nose to spite my face so many times over the years just for the sake of not being pushed around.

I am a contrary individual and the word "no" is never far from my lips. It has cost me jobs and relationships.

I work very hard in the sun every day, I rent a run-down house trailer, I drive a 16 year-old car. My life would be materially better had I learned to kiss ass and play the game but that word keeps jumping out when I am pushed.

It sounds like I regret being an ornery cuss but I do not. I only regret the times that I should have said no and didn't.

In other words you are a miserable person (we all know some) that can`t hold a job or make a living so you respond by being bitter and angry towards everyone.
Called a self fulfilling prophesy but hey knock yourself out DUmbass while the world leaves you in your misery.

[franksolich]

Man, Carl, you are admirable, sir.

I'm the one here ploughing through thousands of pages of Sigmund Freud, and to be honest, despite all I've learned, I can't, really, get through something by the subway cat.

If you can read through all that, you've got more balls than I do, Carl.

[Carl]

Man, Carl, you are admirable, sir.

I'm the one here ploughing through thousands of pages of Sigmund Freud, and to be honest, despite all I've learned, I can't, really, get through something by the subway cat.

If you can read through all that, you've got more balls than I do, Carl.

No Frank,I was lost in the ramblings after a couple of sentences.
It is difficult to grasp the workings of a mind that disjointed.

That she is held in such high esteem by the primitives says much of the mentality of the island.

[franksolich]

This speaks volumes.

Many more sources of involuntary coercive demands impacts everyone in this culture still issuing demands we comply with them everyday..So much coercion is done against our wills, so often,we are not used to not having a chance to say no,because the coercion has become invisible and normalized. We just DO it.

Yeah, franksolich complies with demands every day that he pay his taxes to support the subway cat, when the subway cat is perfectly able to support herself.

franksolich doesn't have a chance to say "no," so franksolich just does it.

[Airwolf]

I am tempted to become the first pest controller it the world with a fully autmatic weapon and a hunting licence for crazy cats.

[LC EFA]

Here's some "NO'" statements that UGP should hear more of :

NO, I do NOT have any "spare change"

NO, you're NOT allowed out of your cell

NO, I will not untie that straight jacket.

[BlueStateSaint]

Here's some "NO'" statements that UGP should hear more of :

NO, I do NOT have any "spare change"

NO, you're NOT allowed out of your cell

NO, I will not untie that straight jacket.

How 'bout this one?

NO, you will take your meds!

[JohnnyReb]

All I can say to that is, civilization has rules, wheather you like them are not, and a lot of them are covered by a simple "no", no expaination needed, just "no".

[DixieBelle]

How about:

No, you will stop posting insane bullshit on the internet and get help?

[Bondai]

UP...the babbling bastion of bullshit.....

[Vagabond]

Holy Cow! How does anybody actually read her screeds?  She just has that needle skipping on a record effect with me.

[Freeper]

Did Will Pitt write that for her? 
It's long and boring and has no point.

[Airwolf]

Did Will Pitt write that for her? 
It's long and boring and has no point.

That describes UPs life in a nutshell

[PatriotGame]

Looks like UP's litter box is full again. These long rants happen every time her mother forgets to clean it.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3498718

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:04 PM
Original message
What happened to the right to say NO?   
   Advertisements [?]

Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 09:38 PM by undergroundpanther
Child Development:
It is no coincidence that the first appearance of life-long memory and abstract self-recognition ("ego") comes in the third year, right after the discovery and common fascination with the word "no". I am not-you, not-that, not-it are essential foundations of self.

Civilization Development:
Tribal peoples, even as recently as modern Japanese, almost always identify themselves in relational and historical terms: son-of-that-one, father-of-that-one, keeper of this-item, hunter-of that-game, weaver-of- that-fabric, etc. But in the West we habitually refer to ourselves as "I", unqualified, and for very good reason: through that word we reserve the right to identify ourselves as individuals with choice and identity outside all roles and history. The very foundation of "I" is "no": I am _not_ my history,not my job, not your ideas about my history, not even my own ideas about my history.

Conclusion:
Both in theory ("we know you best", "for your own good" etc.) and in practice (frequent de facto mandatory drugging and commitment) psychiatry denies this word "no". Psychiatry and its industry demolish the foundations of healthy being while claiming the opposite. A legal definition of the right (of both parties) to say "no" is absolutely essential to ethical psychiatry.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/327/7429/1449#4...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's not just psychiatry that has this problem, it is our culture and civilization, this way of life we have to live that has this problem and perpetuates it.
A legal definition of the right (of both parties) to say "no" is absolutely essential to an ethical SOCIETY!.

This ethical problem is best illustrated by American soldiers signing up for the military because they cannot get work,or decent pay, going to another country ,burning a village down,bombing a town or conquering their "hearts and minds" and not being clear as to WHY they are being demanded to do this..This power grabbing by authorities and using the soldiers as hired guns is denying the other the right to BE and to refuse the offer of being dominated and getting their resources extracted(stolen) and people traumatized by another country. The lame excuses for such domination like fighting terrorism",removing a dictator, or to bring "democracy" ..Are euphemisms for bullying and forcing to submit.

When direct or indirect rationalizations of that kind of authoritarian abuse of power and force is seen as OK,"normal" or even "necessary",that means our society is made coercive by it's distorted hierarchical "nature".
A coercive culture is not FREE when it privileges some and denies others,the right to say NO, or as retaliation for refusal dxenies them the means to survive.

The FORCE behind coercion more visible to those subjected to double standards,usually people presented culturally as inferiors as determined by the dominant class. Be they minorities,poor,immigrants,prisoners, disabled,crazy, cultural deviants,young,rebellious,radical,weird,dangerous,unattractive or any people getting in the way of what the dominant class wants.
Our society has an issue with people saying NO to requests and demands made upon them by authorities..

This means our society is uncomfortable with having real freedom,fairness and responsibility..and the people do not respect or understand what freedom IS and MEANS and REQUIRES from each of us,to co exist in a negotiable peace and fairness that is mutually beneficial to all..

Freedom is GONE..When people are not allowed to say NO and cannot refuse a request,a demand ,an expectation,or make a contract with another party and change it to make it beneficial to them.

(Ever read a cell phone contract?,Even through the legalese it is clear you have no choices.Once you sign up, you must obey and pay whatever they say. This is written all over it.The phone company is making demands and reserving rights for itself at YOUR expense,it is a list of obligations,NOT a true Contract...because you cannot negotiate it's terms with the company at all.)

The involuntary coercion runs so deep, it fears people using the word NO, I do not want______.It fears demand for mutual contracting,i.e freedom of decision and choice for all parties involved..

Look at each examples of these NO statements and add in the (or else) society would imply if you refused the demand,really.

NO,I do not want to work for you.
No I will not pay taxes if that is what it is used for.
NO,I don't want to sign up for"selective service"
NO,I do not want to pay that much for that.
NO,I will not let__get away with it.
NO,You are not welcome here.
NO,You cannot come in.
NO,You cannot stop by later.
NO You cannot call me on my phone.
NO,I don't want to spend a few minutes of my time....
NO,I will not back down.
NO,I will not be restrained because of 'protocol'.
NO,I do not want to pay attention to you.
NO,I do not want to live that way.
NO,I do not desire that.
NO,I do not want to talk,act,dress,behave,believe or be like you because you demand I do it or everyone else thinks it's normal or good to do it.
NO,I don't want to look at you.
NO,I do not want to tolerate being abused, bullied harassed coerced or forced because others can 'hack it' or have 'thicker skins'.
NO,I do not want to subscribe or get the package 'deal'.
NO,I will not submit,obey or comply with those demands.
NO,I will not stay here.
NO,I will not move along.
NO,I do not want to change.
NO,I will not stay this way.
NO,I will not stop creating,writing drawing,etc. just because you are offended.( being offended is an aesthetic dislike it is not the same thing as being HURT btw.)
NO,I will not shut up.
NO,I will not be nice/appropriate to abusers.
NO,I won't go along with you or your ideas/plans/schemes/ policies.
NO,I am not interested.
NO,I will not believe you or believe what you call truth..
NO,I will not"try it" because you asked or demanded I try it.
NO,I will not "open my mind" or try it because "I never tried it before" or you think I might end up "liking it".
NO,I will not shut down my own feelings/emotional expressions.
NO,I disagree.
NO,I do not want to take that medication.
NO,I do not want to give out that information.

In our tamed lives we are taught from cradle to grave to be helpless.Immersed in a world of force in the face of demands of others on many levels it shapes what we see and do not see when looking at a problem...This is because we are used to being constantly coerced involuntarily to do it____ way(or else).Often the coercion comes from an authority figure,parent,church,workplace,bully,corporation"policy,teachers and a grading system,the illusion of"ownership",the marketplace,the system,the government.

Many more sources of involuntary coercive demands impacts everyone in this culture still issuing demands we comply with them everyday..So much coercion is done against our wills, so often,we are not used to not having a chance to say no,because the coercion has become invisible and normalized. We just DO it.

We do not stop to think do we WANT or NOT?
Often the nature of the demand is such we are not even allowed time to consider WHY we would want or not for ourself.
There is a lot of involuntary coercion that goes on day-to day that isn't about co existing with other people in peace in this society.

Some coercion is involuntary per se, because it comes from the fact we co-exist in a world with others,and that kind of coercion is usually two sided and negotiable.It is contractual and mutual it can be changed it allows room for choice making..


The involuntary coercion that robs us of freedom is neither mutual or amendable. Our culture is rife with involuntary coercion. The effects of this habitual disallowing of us to say NO effects US.
With no way to say NO,a demand denies our freedom to find out who we are,what we want,what we prefer, to BE ourselves and make our own decisions for ourselves because coercion creates the appearance there are no other really viable alternatives to choose from,and you can't make a new one yourself, because it is basically disguised FORCE..When the right to say No is denied us,by force, however accommodating,deceptive, and manipulating it appears still,our freedom is denied us by force. When freedom to opt out,refuse,say NO,is denied us..so is peace,exploration,risk,diversity,creativity,expressiveness,will, effecting changes in our lives and community,and true empowered self actualization as well.
We never become true adults.We never become a people both equal and unique, because we are not permitted to decide,risk,negotiate,or innovate anything about the social 'contract' that is not really a contract anymore once the freedom to say NO is gone,and the corporate empire decides everything for us and leaves us illusory consumer "choices".

Think about all the times we are denied the right to refuse? It's staggering how much we are coerced into things we would rather not...if you stop and think about it.

 

Warpy  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Civil disobedience
   is the simple act of taking back the right to say "NO!" to things we know to be dead wrong, whether they're nanny state drug laws or laws that restrict our freedom to assemble and voice our political opinions.

Civil disobedience is our first and best weapon against the would-be aristocracy in this country who want to destroy everything this country has ever stood for.

It's high time we rediscover it. K&R.
   

You ain`t got the balls.

TheGoldenRule  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R.
   Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 09:39 PM by TheGoldenRule
I've been saying NO on this forum and people don't like it.

They'd rather settle for less which blows my mind.

Sorry, NO CAN DO.

Sorry the position of saviour has been taken by this guy named Obama.
You will have to wait a bit longer.

angrycarpenter  (1000+ posts)         Sat Jun-21-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have said no and suffered for it
   Saying no carries the treat of retaliation. I have cut-off my nose to spite my face so many times over the years just for the sake of not being pushed around.

I am a contrary individual and the word "no" is never far from my lips. It has cost me jobs and relationships.

I work very hard in the sun every day, I rent a run-down house trailer, I drive a 16 year-old car. My life would be materially better had I learned to kiss ass and play the game but that word keeps jumping out when I am pushed.

It sounds like I regret being an ornery cuss but I do not. I only regret the times that I should have said no and didn't.

In other words you are a miserable person (we all know some) that can`t hold a job or make a living so you respond by being bitter and angry towards everyone.
Called a self fulfilling prophesy but hey knock yourself out DUmbass while the world leaves you in your misery.

She really seems to be emotionally stuck at about 4 years of age. Which of course makes her a very well spoken preschooler!

[Chris_]

No I will not pay taxes if that is what it is used for.

Hey, that is a good idea. 

NO, I won't pay taxes for the lazy oxygen-wasters.  NO, I won't subsidize the internets for people who made a lot of bad decisions when they were younger.  NO, I won't allow my tax dollars to go to traitors.

JUST. SAY. NO.