Is "biofuel" just a fancy way of saying we are going to use food to make fuel?

[Crazy Horse]

The title for this should read.............."HOLY SHIT PRIMITIVES ARE STOOPID"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3104286

NNN0LHI  (1000+ posts)      Fri Apr-04-08 09:07 AM
Original message
Is "biofuel" just a fancy way of saying we are going to use food to make fuel?
 Advertisements [?]http://www.suntimes.com/business/currency/877580,CST-FI...

Corn hits $6 a bushel on tight supplies

April 4, 2008

FROM THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Corn prices jumped to a record $6 a bushel Thursday, driven up by an expected supply shortfall that will only add to Americans' growing grocery bill and further squeeze struggling ethanol producers.

Corn prices have shot up nearly 30 percent this year amid dwindling stockpiles and surging demand for the grain used to feed livestock and make alternative fuels including ethanol. Prices are poised to go even higher after the U.S. government this week predicted that American farmers -- the world's biggest corn producers -- will plant sharply less of the crop in 2008 compared to last year. snip

Worldwide demand for corn to feed livestock and to make biofuel is putting enormous pressure on global supply. And with the U.S. expected to plant less corn, the supply shortage will only worsen. The U.S. Department of Agriculture projected that farmers will plant 86 million acres of corn in 2008, an 8 percent drop from last year.

Now who do you think is to blame for this bullshit......................I know, to easy

ColbertWatcher (815 posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. No, it means, the fuel can be grown, not mined...
 ...or drilled for.

Just because the GOP has ruined yet another industry due to their poor management abilities, doesn't necessarily mean that when someone competent gets into office we will be forced into a choice between food or fuel.

I feel dumber after reading that

NNN0LHI  (1000+ posts)      Fri Apr-04-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. So it has nothing to do with that box of breakfast cereal that cost me 8 bucks yesterday?
 Is that it?

Don

ColbertWatcher (815 posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Um...
 ...the cost of breakfast cereal and getting it to your local grocer is due in part to the cost of fuel.

But, I think the myth here is that there is a limited amount of corn and we can only use it for one thing.

False all the way around.

There is enough corn for fuel and food (and cattle feed, too).

There just isn't any political will to fight big whore oil.

Okay..............I know, I know...economics isn't there strong suit  if the price of corn is rising and demand is up...........doesn't that equate to lack of supply?

mike_c  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. actually, it does....
 You're making the mistake of anthropocentrism. All of the Earth's primary production-- plant biomass-- is eventually used as food by SOMETHING, whether as living biomass or as dead biomass consumed by detritivores. Any primary production we divert for fuel is in fact diverted food. It might not be human food, but it's the base of some food chain nonetheless.

  Bug boy

QuestionAll  (1000+ posts)      Fri Apr-04-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. not necessarily-
 algae farms, built in the desert and using sea water to grow algae for the express purpose of making biofuel, wouldn't be taking a link out of any food chains.

But this is about corn you dumbass

ColbertWatcher (815 posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thank you.
 I'm sick of these justifications for obscene corporate profits and the anti-intellectualism that hides behind the fear mongering.

 

mike_c  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. of course they would....
 By converting land from biomass production that would otherwise support some food chain. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

NoMoreMyths (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. But it would impact two eco-systems
 Along with the one that we ended up using the biofuels in. Unfortunately, we're stuck in physical reality.

ColbertWatcher (815 posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Technicality.
 But, the "bio" in biofuel does not mean food, it means living, like biology.

  damn I thought that it meant food

mike_c  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. so the rest of the world's species are just a "technicallity...?"
 That's a pretty anthropocentric notion. Of course, the other side of the argument is that fossil fuel consumption and global climate change does ecological damage too.

The real answer, from an ecological perspective, is reducing the human energy budget dramatically.

Would you do your part and cut out oxygen use??

HereSince1628  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't have to be that way...but at present it is.

madrchsod  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-04-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. sure is..check the price of corn syrup
 converting food grains into fuel is the worse idea since mankind started harvesting grain.

 

I agree

QuestionAll  (1000+ posts)      Fri Apr-04-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. not if we use non-arable land to build algae farms that use salt-water to grow their "crops"
 http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Biodiesel_from_A...

The advantages of deriving biodiesel from algae include rapid growth rates, a high per-acre yield; and algae biofuel contains no sulfur, is non-toxic, and is highly biodegradable. Some species of algae are ideally suited to biodiesel production due to their high oil content--in some species, topping out near 50%...

Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year
Corn . . . . . . . 15
Soybeans . . . .48
Safflower. . . . . 83
Sunflower . . . 102
Rapeseed. . . 127
Oil Palm . . . . 635
Micro Algae . .1850
Micro Algae . .5000-15000

 

How bout we tell some Caribou to go have sex elsewhere and drill oil......................why not drill the east, west coasts??

[jtyangel]

What kind of special grocers, organic, rolled by the feet of hippies kind of cereal is don buying? 8 bucks? Even the most expensive thing on walmart's shelf with an organic label goes for about 4.50. Come on now!

[DixieBelle]

Kudos to you crazy horse for wading through that insanity. God, they are so stupid.

[franksolich]

Question.

We all know how the primitives on Skins's island adore the Europeans.

In fact, the primitives are always threatening to move there.

The European Union's requiring a larger and larger percentage of fuel be biofuel every year; I think it's up to about 10% now, and it's going up and up and up and up and up.....

The Europeans are doing this, so what are the primitives bitching about?

[VivisMom]

What kind of special grocers, organic, rolled by the feet of hippies kind of cereal is don buying? 8 bucks? Even the most expensive thing on walmart's shelf with an organic label goes for about 4.50. Come on now!

He's shopping at Whole Foods...where everything costs more!

[Carl]

Gee,DUmmies demanding we do one thing then bitching and blaming others when the law of unintended consequences takes over.

There is a surprise.

[Chris_]

What kind of special grocers, organic, rolled by the feet of hippies kind of cereal is don buying? 8 bucks? Even the most expensive thing on walmart's shelf with an organic label goes for about 4.50. Come on now!

He's shopping at Whole Foods...where everything costs more!

I hate that store....all the "organic food" signs everywhere.  Is there such a thing as "inorganic food"?   

[Crazy Horse]

What kind of special grocers, organic, rolled by the feet of hippies kind of cereal is don buying? 8 bucks? Even the most expensive thing on walmart's shelf with an organic label goes for about 4.50. Come on now!

He's shopping at Whole Foods...where everything costs more!

I hate that store....all the "organic food" signs everywhere.  Is there such a thing as "inorganic food"?   

Well after advances in science we can make better food..........................now people want organic and grow it the same way they did 200 years ago

[Doc]

Lemme see if I have this straight......liberals/democrats/progressives/socialists whined, pissed and moaned about reducing our "dependence on foreign oil (which hovers at about 20%), and focusing on renewable resources".  

As a result, congress passed all sorts of initiatives to promote (force) the production of ethanol (which, by the way, uses more energy to produce than it generates).  Now the easiest and cheapest way to manufacture ethanol is through the distillation of fermented food grain mash (corn being the most concentrated form).  Therefore, corn usage rises, and since there is a finite amount of land available to raise corn.......and when that limit is reached......the supply can no longer be economically increased....so what happens?   Well, the price goes up!!

Amazingly, with the price of grain at all-time highs as a result of this artificially increased demand......everything ELSE that is made from these grain crops also increases in price......

NOW, these self-same liberals/democrats/progressives/socialists are again whining because they have to pay 8 bucks a box for their "organic granola" from Whole Foods.....have I got this right??  And they have the colossal audacity to blame the "evil corporate establishment" for the fact that they can no longer buy "organic granola" for 5 bucks a box......

I guess the next liberal target will be "BIG CEREAL", instead of "Big Oil"......

Egads....sometimes I think that you cannot qualify to become a liberal/democrat/progressive/socialist without having an IQ below 50......

doc

[Bondai]

Lemme see if I have this straight......liberals/democrats/progressives/socialists whined, pissed and moaned about reducing our "dependence on foreign oil (which hovers at about 20%), and focusing on renewable resources".  

As a result, congress passed all sorts of initiatives to promote (force) the production of ethanol (which, by the way, uses more energy to produce than it generates).  Now the easiest and cheapest way to manufacture ethanol is through the distillation of fermented food grain mash (corn being the most concentrated form).  Therefore, corn usage rises, and since there is a finite amount of land available to raise corn.......and when that limit is reached......the supply can no longer be economically increased....so what happens?   Well, the price goes up!!

Amazingly, with the price of grain at all-time highs as a result of this artificially increased demand......everything ELSE that is made from these grain crops also increases in price......

NOW, these self-same liberals/democrats/progressives/socialists are again whining because they have to pay 8 bucks a box for their "organic granola" from Whole Foods.....have I got this right??  And they have the colossal audacity to blame the "evil corporate establishment" for the fact that they can no longer buy "organic granola" for 5 bucks a box......

I guess the next liberal target will be "BIG CEREAL", instead of "Big Oil"......

Egads....sometimes I think that you cannot qualify to become a liberal/democrat/progressive/socialist without having an IQ below 50......

doc

....and the farmers are planting less to keep the price up...go figure.....We don't call them DUmmies for nothing....

[Chris_]

Maybe if they quit using all that corn to make high-fructose corn syrup that they put in EVERYTHING at the grocery store, we'd have plenty to use for fuel.   

[Chris_]

Maybe if they quit using all that corn to make high-fructose corn syrup that they put in EVERYTHING at the grocery store, we'd have plenty to use for fuel.   

Or....using the conservative economic model.....when the price of corn reaches a tipping point, it will become cheaper to return to the use of "sugar".......

doc

[Chris_]

....and the farmers are planting less to keep the price up...go figure.....We don't call them DUmmies for nothing....

Actually farmers are not planting less.....crops have to be rotated to protect the land.......you cannot grow corn year after year on the same field without depleting the nutritional chemistry in the soil......farmers around here generally plant corn two seasons in a row, then switch to soybeans (a legume, which restores nitrogen to the soil)....

doc

[Miss Mia]

Question.

We all know how the primitives on Skins's island adore the Europeans.

In fact, the primitives are always threatening to move there.

The European Union's requiring a larger and larger percentage of fuel be biofuel every year; I think it's up to about 10% now, and it's going up and up and up and up and up.....

The Europeans are doing this, so what are the primitives bitching about?

I believe that rape seed is the basis of biodiesel in Europe.  Much more cost efficient than using soy beans. 

The US needs to start using something other than corn or soybeans to produce biofuels.  Especially corn, since it produced more waste to make ethanol.  Brazil uses switch grass, that gives a huge amount of energy for vehicles without using too much energy to make biofuels.

Algae shows a lot of promise for the conversion into biofuel. 

[Chris_]

I believe that rape seed is the basis of biodiesel in Europe.  Much more cost efficient than using soy beans. 

The US needs to start using something other than corn or soybeans to produce biofuels.  Especially corn, since it produced more waste to make ethanol.  Brazil uses switch grass, that gives a huge amount of energy for vehicles without using too much energy to make biofuels.

Algae shows a lot of promise for the conversion into biofuel. 

Actually it does not matter what "biomass" is used to manufacture ethanol, they ALL have a "negative energy budget" (requiring more energy in BTU to make than they generate in their use)  The reason is that all ethanol plants require vast amounts of electricity, and the distillation process uses large amounts of natural gas/propane/fuel oil to evaporate the alcohol off of the fermented mash....

This is another example of "feel good" liberalism....akin to buying a Prious......

doc

[Miss Mia]

I believe that rape seed is the basis of biodiesel in Europe.  Much more cost efficient than using soy beans. 

The US needs to start using something other than corn or soybeans to produce biofuels.  Especially corn, since it produced more waste to make ethanol.  Brazil uses switch grass, that gives a huge amount of energy for vehicles without using too much energy to make biofuels.

Algae shows a lot of promise for the conversion into biofuel. 

Actually it does not matter what "biomass" is used to manufacture ethanol, they ALL have a "negative energy budget" (requiring more energy in BTU to make than they generate in their use)  The reason is that all ethanol plants require vast amounts of electricity, and the distillation process uses large amounts of natural gas/propane/fuel oil to evaporate the alcohol off of the fermented mash....

This is another example of "feel good" liberalism....akin to buying a Prious......

doc

I haven't read up much on ethanol, I don't use it anyways. 

[Crazy Horse]

And Bondai just like OPEC keeping production down to keep the price high.................Dummies is too nice and untruthful description of them................IDJITS

Lug nut....................if it's organic it wouldn't have HFCS in it to begin with.

Also with more farmers planting corn (yet overall corn planting down) the loss of secondary wetlands are going away in the pothole regions of this country....................say no to the ethanol so we can save these for me

[VivisMom]

What kind of special grocers, organic, rolled by the feet of hippies kind of cereal is don buying? 8 bucks? Even the most expensive thing on walmart's shelf with an organic label goes for about 4.50. Come on now!

He's shopping at Whole Foods...where everything costs more!

I hate that store....all the "organic food" signs everywhere.  Is there such a thing as "inorganic food"?   

The 'organic' is just code for 'we grow it in cow poop and charge you double for it!'