Who Are They Screwing First?

[NateRiver]

"Who Are They Screwing First?
The Pelosi-Obama-Reid Assault on Middle America"

It is one thing to raise cigarettes taxes to discourage people from smoking, especially the poor for benefits to their health. I guess the democrats figure they can raise cigarette taxes and people will keep smoking so the government can afford to give these working poor people Health Insurance for their children. (Let’s not get into the 2nd hand smoke stuff). Is this making sense? Maybe I read the press release wrong! 

ATR Press Release

[Chris]

It was great fun when they raised our state's cigarette tax to the second-highest in the nation.  Now, we're not a very wide state... you can be in Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia or Arkansas within an hour and a half depending on what part of the state you live in.  People were driving up to Kentucky to buy their smokes to avoid paying the new tax.  What does the Governor do after he sees his new money-maker disappear?  He pays tax enforcement officers to sit on the state border and pull people over to search their cars.

[docstew]

It was great fun when they raised our state's cigarette tax to the second-highest in the nation.  Now, we're not a very wide state... you can be in Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia or Arkansas within an hour and a half depending on what part of the state you live in.  People were driving up to Kentucky to buy their smokes to avoid paying the new tax.  What does the Governor do after he sees his new money-maker disappear?  He pays tax enforcement officers to sit on the state border and pull people over to search their cars.

how many people sued the state for illegal search and seizure?

[Chris]

how many people sued the state for illegal search and seizure?

None that I heard of.  It was one of those hey-look-at-this 30-second news "stories" on the local channels.

[rich_t]

None that I heard of.  It was one of those hey-look-at-this 30-second news "stories" on the local channels.

That is probably because many of these folks don't actually know their rights and therefore didn't insist on them.

Any cop/tax official that wants to search my car had better either have a warrant or be able to prove probable cause.

[NHSparky]

He pays tax enforcement officers to sit on the state border and pull people over to search their cars.

I'd love to see him try to actually prosecute anyone.

[DumbAss Tanker]

It's not as clear as you guys think on the search and seizure, there is a whole body of law on checkpoints, particularly at points-of-entry like border crossings (Including State border crossings), that get around the warrant requirement.  It's 'way too complex to explain here, but lipping off to a cop at a checkpoint about a warrant could work out poorly for you.

[NHSparky]

SCOTUS has ruled time and again that if I buy something in one state it does not prevent me from taking it into another state based solely on the taxes.  The Constitution is pretty clear on that score.  The Massholes and Maine idiots used to sit at the Portsmouth traffic circle liquor store and take down numbers.  Found out it wasn't exactly legal, to say the least, so they don't do that any longer.

[DumbAss Tanker]

SCOTUS has ruled time and again that if I buy something in one state it does not prevent me from taking it into another state based solely on the taxes.  The Constitution is pretty clear on that score.  The Massholes and Maine idiots used to sit at the Portsmouth traffic circle liquor store and take down numbers.  Found out it wasn't exactly legal, to say the least, so they don't do that any longer.

Absolutely correct.  Of course that also does not mean you are exempt from paying tax on it as a "Use tax" either, and it doesn't foreclose your own state from trying to enforce their tax laws on items you bring in from out of state.  You can buy 'em wherever you want, your state can tax them whenever they are brought in for use there.

[NHSparky]

Absolutely correct.  Of course that also does not mean you are exempt from paying tax on it as a "Use tax" either, and it doesn't foreclose your own state from trying to enforce their tax laws on items you bring in from out of state.  You can buy 'em wherever you want, your state can tax them whenever they are brought in for use there.

Incorrect.  I refer you to Article I, Sections 8 and 10 of the Constitution.  Further, I also refer you to the comment of Judge Learned Hand in the case of Gregory v. Helvering:

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

To wit--if gas or other "use" taxes were lower in one state than another, then it is incumbent upon that state to ensure that one's gas tank, pantry, etc., were full BEFORE leaving one's state of residence, not encroaching upon someone outside their jurisdiction.  That, dear man, is tyranny.

[thundley4]

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

But, but, Joe Biden said it is patriotic to pay taxes.   

[NHSparky]

Which is why Judge Hand never made it to the SCOTUS.  Widely regarded in American history as the best legal scholar never to serve on the SCOTUS.  Guess that's what happens when you come of age under FDR's socialism.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Incorrect.  I refer you to Article I, Sections 8 and 10 of the Constitution.  Further, I also refer you to the comment of Judge Learned Hand in the case of Gregory v. Helvering:

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

To wit--if gas or other "use" taxes were lower in one state than another, then it is incumbent upon that state to ensure that one's gas tank, pantry, etc., were full BEFORE leaving one's state of residence, not encroaching upon someone outside their jurisdiction.  That, dear man, is tyranny.

You're entitled to your opinion, Sparky, no matter how wrong it may be.  All that you posted is true, but you are making a leap to an incorrect  conclusion from information which is not completely germane to the situation you set up.  For starters, you can certainly arrange your affairs to minimize your tax exposure as the Justice so eloquently said, however that does not prevent the State from exacting all lawfully-enacted taxes from you including sales and use taxes on goods you bring into the State; and when you bring goods back into the State, you are no longer outside their jurisdiction.  The goods brought into a State, purchased elsewhere, are subject to such use taxes most places, which is all the governmental interest required to meet the threshhold for point-of-entry inspections, i.e, checkpoints.  But, don't take my word for it, feel free to test your legal analysis on the State Police at a checkpoint, and get a second opinion from them.

[NHSparky]

Sorry, it's not incorrect if it is based on Constitutional principles.  For instance, let's go back to my example of gasoline.  Why is it that the state police don't check residents LEAVING a state to ensure a minimum level in the gas tank prior to travelling to a state which has lower gas taxes?

Another case in point--groceries.  Maine has one of the highest state/local tax burdens in the nation, New Hampshire one of the lowest.  Consequently, any given weekend at Hannaford's or Market Basket, you'll see a plethora of cars bearing Maine license plates, yet no police.  However, go to the liquor store and you'll see MAINE police/revenue folks ILLEGALLY taking plate numbers, etc.

Did we forget there was a Fourth Amendment all of a sudden?

Why is it I could buy cigarettes from an Indian reservation or off the Internet and avoid state taxes?  No, tanker--this is another case of an overbearing government which cares not so much for freedom and the rule of law as the almighty dollar.  And I'm not one of those unquestioning "do whatever you want" libertarian types.  It comes down to common sense, something which our state and federal governmental bodies are sadly lacking.

[docstew]

But, but, Joe Biden said it is patriotic to pay taxes.   

beat me to it

[Chris_]

Sorry, it's not incorrect if it is based on Constitutional principles.  For instance, let's go back to my example of gasoline.  Why is it that the state police don't check residents LEAVING a state to ensure a minimum level in the gas tank prior to travelling to a state which has lower gas taxes?

Another case in point--groceries.  Maine has one of the highest state/local tax burdens in the nation, New Hampshire one of the lowest.  Consequently, any given weekend at Hannaford's or Market Basket, you'll see a plethora of cars bearing Maine license plates, yet no police.  However, go to the liquor store and you'll see MAINE police/revenue folks ILLEGALLY taking plate numbers, etc.

Did we forget there was a Fourth Amendment all of a sudden?

Why is it I could buy cigarettes from an Indian reservation or off the Internet and avoid state taxes?  No, tanker--this is another case of an overbearing government which cares not so much for freedom and the rule of law as the almighty dollar.  And I'm not one of those unquestioning "do whatever you want" libertarian types.  It comes down to common sense, something which our state and federal governmental bodies are sadly lacking.

Try buying a car out of state where the sales tax is lower...then register it in your home state.  Have your checkbook ready.

[Lacarnut]

Sorry, it's not incorrect if it is based on Constitutional principles.  For instance, let's go back to my example of gasoline.  Why is it that the state police don't check residents LEAVING a state to ensure a minimum level in the gas tank prior to travelling to a state which has lower gas taxes?

Another case in point--groceries.  Maine has one of the highest state/local tax burdens in the nation, New Hampshire one of the lowest.  Consequently, any given weekend at Hannaford's or Market Basket, you'll see a plethora of cars bearing Maine license plates, yet no police.  However, go to the liquor store and you'll see MAINE police/revenue folks ILLEGALLY taking plate numbers, etc.

Did we forget there was a Fourth Amendment all of a sudden?

Why is it I could buy cigarettes from an Indian reservation or off the Internet and avoid state taxes?  No, tanker--this is another case of an overbearing government which cares not so much for freedom and the rule of law as the almighty dollar.  And I'm not one of those unquestioning "do whatever you want" libertarian types.  It comes down to common sense, something which our state and federal governmental bodies are sadly lacking.

Having worked as a Sales Tax Auditor for the state of Louisiana, here are the legal aspects of importation of goods purchased from another state. The Supreme Court has ruled that states can not tax interstate commerce due to the commerce clause provided the seller does not have nexus in that state. In other words, you can go to a furniture store in North Carolina that has no locations, salesmen in your home state and make purchases without payment of sales tax provided they ship it to you. If the N.C. Dept. of Revenue audits that furniture store, they may send that information to the Dept. of Revenue in your state. If they do, you will receive a bill for use tax plus penalty and interest. The Dept of Revenue is not going to waste their time on small purchases like a few cartoons of cigs or a few gallons of gasoline. In fact, if the tax is less than $10, the computer system will not even generate a bill. FYI, the state that you reside in has the legal authority to charge sales/use taxes on all tangible personal property used in your state. If you buy an automobile in Oregon which has no sales tax, the importation and registration of that vehicle will be subject to sales tax if your state has a motor vehicle tax.

No one like to pay taxes including yours truly but how would you like to be an ATV dealer where residents of your state would buy their off road ATV's out of state. Your competition would have a huge advantage if the buyers did not have to pay the use tax when they brought it back into their state.   

[NHSparky]

Very true--which is why residency is taken into consideration when buying a car, etc.  However, an example I just ran into last night:

An acquaintance of mine moved from NH to Maine a few years back.  Several months prior to that, he had purchased a new car.  However, because the car was less than a year old, as soon as he tried to register it in Maine he got nailed with 5 percent sales tax and 5 percent excise tax on a 20K vehicle.  This is AFTER the vehicle had already been legally registered in another state.

Don't even get me started on how some states do income taxes.  Maine, again as an example, is one of the worst.  While they don't nail you for BOTH incomes if you're married (like they used to) it can often be worth more to NOT work.

Example: Let's say I work a job making 90K a year in NH, and the wife has a part-time gig in Maine making 10K a year, for a combined income of 100K, of which her share is 10 percent.  Now normally, one would say that she gets taxed on 10K, which we all agree would be a very small amount.  Right?

WRONG.

The way Maine figures "their" share of state taxes is that they figure what the tax would have been on 100K of income and take 10 percent (her percentage of total income in this case) of that figure--and Maine has an 8.7 percent state tax that kicks in at 20K/year with virtually NO deductions.  So 8.7 percent of 80K = $6960--on a job where someone earned 10K.  IOW, when you consider transportation costs, etc., it would be cheaper to just stay at home.  Granted, one could work around this by filing married/separate on federal return, so either you're going to get screwed by the feds or by the state--either way, you're screwed.

Final case--the cops in Maine are going around finding people parking cars at their homes which are registered in other states who are trying to avoid paying Maine registration fees.  Okay, I get that.  However, one guy was given a company vehicle to drive directly to work sites from his house for a few weeks.  The company is located in NH, the jobs are in ME, NH, and Mass.  What did the cop tell him?  The vehicle isn't registered in Maine, therefore he can't park it at his home despite it being a company vehicle without first registering it in Maine.

I wish I was kidding.

[thundley4]

$1 cigarette tax hike mulled in Capitol (Illinois)
SPRINGFIELD — The cash-strapped state may be looking to smokers as a way to raise money.

State Sen. Jeff Schoenberg proposed Tuesday a $1-per-pack boost in the state’s portion of the cigarette tax.

Not only would such an increase bring in $320 million in new cash at a time when the state is facing a billion-dollar-plus shortfall in revenue, but it could force people to quit, the Evanston Democrat said.

“It will drive down the number of people who are smoking,” Schoenberg said during a Statehouse press conference.

It will also drive more people across the state lines to buy cigarettes. As it is now, I have one of our truck drivers buy mine in Missouri, once in awhile .  I may have to make that a habit. That $1/pack would be a 25%,(<$4/pack),increase over what I pay now, and they are less than than $3/pack in Missouri.

[Lacarnut]

Very true--which is why residency is taken into consideration when buying a car, etc.  However, an example I just ran into last night:

An acquaintance of mine moved from NH to Maine a few years back.  Several months prior to that, he had purchased a new car.  However, because the car was less than a year old, as soon as he tried to register it in Maine he got nailed with 5 percent sales tax and 5 percent excise tax on a 20K vehicle.  This is AFTER the vehicle had already been legally registered in another state.

Don't even get me started on how some states do income taxes.  Maine, again as an example, is one of the worst.  While they don't nail you for BOTH incomes if you're married (like they used to) it can often be worth more to NOT work.

Example: Let's say I work a job making 90K a year in NH, and the wife has a part-time gig in Maine making 10K a year, for a combined income of 100K, of which her share is 10 percent.  Now normally, one would say that she gets taxed on 10K, which we all agree would be a very small amount.  Right?

WRONG.

The way Maine figures "their" share of state taxes is that they figure what the tax would have been on 100K of income and take 10 percent (her percentage of total income in this case) of that figure--and Maine has an 8.7 percent state tax that kicks in at 20K/year with virtually NO deductions.  So 8.7 percent of 80K = $6960--on a job where someone earned 10K.  IOW, when you consider transportation costs, etc., it would be cheaper to just stay at home.  Granted, one could work around this by filing married/separate on federal return, so either you're going to get screwed by the feds or by the state--either way, you're screwed.

Final case--the cops in Maine are going around finding people parking cars at their homes which are registered in other states who are trying to avoid paying Maine registration fees.  Okay, I get that.  However, one guy was given a company vehicle to drive directly to work sites from his house for a few weeks.  The company is located in NH, the jobs are in ME, NH, and Mass.  What did the cop tell him?  The vehicle isn't registered in Maine, therefore he can't park it at his home despite it being a company vehicle without first registering it in Maine.

I wish I was kidding.

Many states have reciprocity with other states where you would receive a credit for motor vehicles sales tax paid when you registered in a state you moved to. It is pretty chicken shit for a state to tax you on a vehicle you have already paid taxes on when you move. However, many of these money grubber politicians do not give a shit. The state of Louisiana has agreements with most other states on the transfer of vehicles provided an agreement between the two states has been drawn up and the states reciprocate with eachother. It is a very simple procedure. As a motor vehicle auditor, I felt bad for someone that came from one of these states that would not agree to reciprocity. They wound up having to pay the taxes a second time based on 80% of the NADA retail value.

I quit smoking about 30 years ago; taxes on cigs is outrageous. Last carton I bought was around 25 bucks. High taxation on cigs, booze and gambling affects the poor more so than someone in the middle or upper class. Democratic dummies have never been able to figure that out yet. If people quit or smoke less, the revenues from the cig tax will dwindle. Higher taxes have been proven to not provide higher revenues. For example, the luxury tax on boats put a number of boat builders in the northeast out of business. The rich farts quit buying yachts and luxury cars. The luxury tax imposed many years ago was a complete bust. It was phased out but I am sure some of the mental midgets in DC will come up with a new wrinkle to screw us over.