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Current Events => Political Ammunition => Nationalized Health Care and Its Potential Horrors => Topic started by: CactusCarlos on December 31, 2010, 01:08:21 PM

Title: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: CactusCarlos on December 31, 2010, 01:08:21 PM
Quote
The state Department of Revenue plans to hike the 2011 penalty by about 9 percent for residents who are able to afford health insurance but fail to buy it.

Taxpayers ages 18 to 26 whose income exceeds $32,496 will see the penalty increase to $864, up from $792. For those ages 27 and older whose income exceeds $32,496, the penalty will rise to $1,212 annually, up from $1,116.

The fee, adjusted annually, doubles if two parents are in the family.

The state’s landmark Health Care Reform Act of 2006 requires most adults 18 and over with access to affordable insurance to obtain it, and requires the DOR to collect a penalty for taxpayers who do not comply.

There are no changes for those making less than three times the poverty level.

http://bostonherald.com/jobfind/news/healthcare/view/20101230uninsured_in_mass_face_higher_penalties_in_2011/srvc=home&position=also
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: true_blood on December 31, 2010, 02:18:52 PM
Welcome to my hometown. The land of the liberals. (Not proud of it, by the way.)
When will the dolts learn what is going on? We already have that awesome "socialized" health care here. Hospitals are laying off workers and are going broke. And, if you don't have health insurance, you pay a "penalty". Gotta love it.::) :whatever:
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: JohnnyReb on December 31, 2010, 02:31:03 PM
Welcome to my hometown. The land of the liberals. (Not proud of it, by the way.)
When will the dolts learn what is going on? We already have that awesome "socialized" health care here. Hospitals are laying off workers and are going broke. And, if you don't have health insurance, you pay a "penalty". Gotta love it.::) :whatever:

So, does that penalty get me state healthcare or just another bill in the mail?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on December 31, 2010, 02:44:41 PM
So, does that penalty get me state healthcare or just another bill in the mail?

It is just another bill.  You have to submit proof of insurance when you file your taxes.    Nasty business.    We have insurance for life as my husband is retired military, but this is one of the aspects of this plan that was just ill-advised.   
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: true_blood on December 31, 2010, 04:08:20 PM
So, does that penalty get me state healthcare or just another bill in the mail?
What former lurker said. If you pay the penalty, you don't get the health insurance. I'm not sure if they send you a bill or if they just deduct it from your tax refund.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: rich_t on December 31, 2010, 05:02:25 PM
And some folks wanted Romney for President.  Didn't he sign that BS into law there?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on December 31, 2010, 06:48:11 PM
And some folks wanted Romney for President.  Didn't he sign that BS into law there?

It was his brainstorm, but the super super super majority of democrats in the statehouse fine tuned it to the point of destroying it. 

The short of it was we were paying close to a $1 billion a year bailing hospitals out for the free care they were forced to give uninsured patients.    Those costs were spiraling out of control.    Romney's idea was to instead of writing a blank check for free care, why don't we instead use those funds to subsidize private insurance premiums (through a consortium of private carriers that the state set up) so they can get insurance.   The insurance industry balked because they did not want to insure this high risk pool.   Romney worked it out with carriers that he would remove some very costly mandates so carriers could offer very competitive and cheap policies, with no hit to their forever decreasing profit margin as those costly mandates for all policies in the state would be removed.

Well that was the plan.   The statehouse got a hold of it and tweaked it a bit - not so much that Romney wouldn't still support it, although he tried to veto many aspects of it.    It passed, Romney leaves, enter Deval and the rest is history.   It's a mess now.   Definitely nothing that should be referred to as Romneycare because it has no resemblance to what he initially proposed or supported.

Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: MrsSmith on January 01, 2011, 08:12:25 AM
It was his brainstorm, but the super super super majority of democrats in the statehouse fine tuned it to the point of destroying it. 

The short of it was we were paying close to a $1 billion a year bailing hospitals out for the free care they were forced to give uninsured patients.    Those costs were spiraling out of control.    Romney's idea was to instead of writing a blank check for free care, why don't we instead use those funds to subsidize private insurance premiums (through a consortium of private carriers that the state set up) so they can get insurance.   The insurance industry balked because they did not want to insure this high risk pool.   Romney worked it out with carriers that he would remove some very costly mandates so carriers could offer very competitive and cheap policies, with no hit to their forever decreasing profit margin as those costly mandates for all policies in the state would be removed.

Well that was the plan.   The statehouse got a hold of it and tweaked it a bit - not so much that Romney wouldn't still support it, although he tried to veto many aspects of it.    It passed, Romney leaves, enter Deval and the rest is history.   It's a mess now.   Definitely nothing that should be referred to as Romneycare because it has no resemblance to what he initially proposed or supported.


Serious?  Well, that's good to know.  I'd never looked into it, and this was definitely one of the main reasons I didn't like Romney.  I would have to wonder if he's learned his lesson, though...that even the best ideas will be twisted and snarled by the next admin....
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 01, 2011, 08:31:39 AM
Serious?  Well, that's good to know.  I'd never looked into it, and this was definitely one of the main reasons I didn't like Romney.  I would have to wonder if he's learned his lesson, though...that even the best ideas will be twisted and snarled by the next admin....

Very true.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: zeitgeist on January 02, 2011, 04:53:16 PM
It was his brainstorm, but the super super super majority of democrats in the statehouse fine tuned it to the point of destroying it. 

The short of it was we were paying close to a $1 billion a year bailing hospitals out for the free care they were forced to give uninsured patients.    Those costs were spiraling out of control.    Romney's idea was to instead of writing a blank check for free care, why don't we instead use those funds to subsidize private insurance premiums (through a consortium of private carriers that the state set up) so they can get insurance.   The insurance industry balked because they did not want to insure this high risk pool.   Romney worked it out with carriers that he would remove some very costly mandates so carriers could offer very competitive and cheap policies, with no hit to their forever decreasing profit margin as those costly mandates for all policies in the state would be removed.

Well that was the plan.   The statehouse got a hold of it and tweaked it a bit - not so much that Romney wouldn't still support it, although he tried to veto many aspects of it.    It passed, Romney leaves, enter Deval and the rest is history.   It's a mess now.   Definitely nothing that should be referred to as Romneycare because it has no resemblance to what he initially proposed or supported.



And why were there so many uninsured dare I ask?  Were any of them illegals? 

And lest we forget Romney is a Morman who once drove with his dog in a carrier a top his car.    :tongue:
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 02, 2011, 05:17:57 PM
And why were there so many uninsured dare I ask?  Were any of them illegals? 

And lest we forget Romney is a Morman who once drove with his dog in a carrier a top his car.    :tongue:

Actually many of them were illegals (but not mexicans -- irish, polish, russian, portuguese, canadian......).    One of Romney's ideas was that anyone who presented themselves to the ER for tx without insurance was getting reported -- thus sending the illegals to NH instead.   :-)

Y'all know how much Deval loves those illegals!   
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: zeitgeist on January 02, 2011, 05:48:21 PM
Actually many of them were illegals (but not mexicans -- irish, polish, russian, portuguese, canadian......).    One of Romney's ideas was that anyone who presented themselves to the ER for tx without insurance was getting reported -- thus sending the illegals to NH instead.   :-)

Y'all know how much Deval loves those illegals!   

Isn't that Caddilac Deval? or is it Curtains?  I haven't listened to Howie in ages so I am not up on goings on south of the Merrimac.

Maine isn't in much better shape in health care.  I saw a thread a the dump saying they had applied for a waiver. :fuelfire: 
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: true_blood on January 02, 2011, 07:15:09 PM
Isn't that Caddilac Deval? or is it Curtains? 
:rotf:
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: docstew on January 08, 2011, 01:08:56 PM
It is just another bill.  You have to submit proof of insurance when you file your taxes.    Nasty business.    We have insurance for life as my husband is retired military, but this is one of the aspects of this plan that was just ill-advised.   

I thank you and your husband for serving and am glad that your Tricare fulfills those requirements, but here (http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,53635.msg602817.html#msg602817) you argue that it is not state run health care.  Which is it?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 08, 2011, 02:32:56 PM
I thank you and your husband for serving and am glad that your Tricare fulfills those requirements, but here (http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,53635.msg602817.html#msg602817) you argue that it is not state run health care.  Which is it?

Requiring that residents have health insurance is not state run.  We must have a different definition of the term.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 08, 2011, 02:36:36 PM
It is just another bill.  You have to submit proof of insurance when you file your taxes.    Nasty business.    We have insurance for life as my husband is retired military, but this is one of the aspects of this plan that was just ill-advised.   

Your boy passed it & he did the state a big favor.  :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 08, 2011, 02:41:22 PM
Your boy passed it & he did the state a big favor.  :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

WTF?   My boy?   How old are you?

Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 08, 2011, 02:42:04 PM
You know what I am done discussing Romney with you. 
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 08, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
WTF?   My boy?   How old are you?



A lot older and wiser than you. I can see a snake in the grass when I see one.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: docstew on January 09, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
Requiring that residents have health insurance is not state run.  We must have a different definition of the term.

OK, I will concede that it is not state run, however, it is a mandated program where those who don't participate are fined.  It is the exact same kind of individual mandate that is part of Obamacare.  The kind of mandate that was recently found unconstitutional by a federal judge.  Now, is this a conservative principle?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Attero Dominatus on January 09, 2011, 05:28:04 AM
OK, I will concede that it is not state run, however, it is a mandated program where those who don't participate are fined.  It is the exact same kind of individual mandate that is part of Obamacare.  The kind of mandate that was recently found unconstitutional by a federal judge.  Now, is this a conservative principle?

It may not be state run, but it is statist. If the individual mandate is ruled constitutional by the supreme court, it sets in motion where the government can mandate that people purchase a commodity, and the abuses that can come with it: forcing people to buy products from companies who donate to certain politicians for example, or forcing people to buy from companies who need 'bailing out.'
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 09, 2011, 06:13:14 AM
OK, I will concede that it is not state run, however, it is a mandated program where those who don't participate are fined.  It is the exact same kind of individual mandate that is part of Obamacare.  The kind of mandate that was recently found unconstitutional by a federal judge.  Now, is this a conservative principle?

The personal responsibility clause of the original plan was that those who do not wish to purchase insurance would float an account for 10K that would cover unexpected health care expenses.

The state forces individuals to purchase auto insurance, have for as long as I have been paying attention, and abuse has not occurred in that regard.   That said, the free care -- which has been and continues to be a significant problem nationally -- that has been thoroughly abused.  

The conservative answer to that would be to end free care.   You don't have insurance, or cash to pay for emergency treatment?  then you get none.    Absent of that, the taxpayers in the state of MA were paying to the tune of $1 billion + for those "personally responsible" folks who had no insurance.    Romney wanted to end that.  His original plan was a good one.   Unfortunately, MA was probably not the state to implement such a policy as like everything else they touch, the Democrats totally ruined it.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 09, 2011, 06:20:01 AM
It may not be state run, but it is statist. If the individual mandate is ruled constitutional by the supreme court, it sets in motion where the government can mandate that people purchase a commodity, and the abuses that can come with it: forcing people to buy products from companies who donate to certain politicians for example, or forcing people to buy from companies who need 'bailing out.'

Even with a liberal statehouse, I don't see that happening in MA.   Employers must purchase worker's compensation insurance or be heavily fined by the AG's office, owners of motor vehicles must purchase auto insurance or face criminal prosecution if they operate a vehicle without it -- this state, like every other state in the union, have been doing similar mandates for decades without challenge.   

The health insurance mandate of fining those without insurance is being challenged.   We will see how that plays out.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: docstew on January 09, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
Even with a liberal statehouse, I don't see that happening in MA.   Employers must purchase worker's compensation insurance or be heavily fined by the AG's office, owners of motor vehicles must purchase auto insurance or face criminal prosecution if they operate a vehicle without it -- this state, like every other state in the union, have been doing similar mandates for decades without challenge.   

The health insurance mandate of fining those without insurance is being challenged.   We will see how that plays out.

False analogy. Both of these actions are choices.  One can decide not to run a business, or even choice not to own or drive a car.  There is no choice to being alive, which is the basis for the mandate.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 09, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
False analogy. Both of these actions are choices.  One can decide not to run a business, or even choice not to own or drive a car.  There is no choice to being alive, which is the basis for the mandate.

The non-choice is actually thrust upon the taxpayer, as those who choose not to pay for coverage are inflicting their choice onto that taxpayer when they seek free care at a MA hospital emergency room.   

The consequence of no insurance is $1 billion + a year to the taxpayer. 
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 09, 2011, 07:47:36 PM
The non-choice is actually thrust upon the taxpayer, as those who choose not to pay for coverage are inflicting their choice onto that taxpayer when they seek free care at a MA hospital emergency room.   

The consequence of no insurance is $1 billion + a year to the taxpayer. 

It is called Medicaid for those that can not afford health insurance. Obama care is not going to change that except to put millions on the rolls. What good does another layer of government meddling in the health care business do. In 10 years unless mandated care is not repealed, I predict single payer will become a reality. Costs will explode cause like I said the gov. can not run a whorehouse efficiently. That goes for the state of MA also.

Obamacare and MASScare is unconstitutional. No law that I know of forces you to buy a product. If the government can tell you have to buy health care, it can tell you what kind of car, house, toilet paper, etc. etc. to buy. Defense of this abomination is way off base. 
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: true_blood on January 10, 2011, 08:20:37 PM
It is called Medicaid for those that can not afford health insurance. Obama care is not going to change that except to put millions on the rolls. What good does another layer of government meddling in the health care business do. In 10 years unless mandated care is not repealed, I predict single payer will become a reality. Costs will explode cause like I said the gov. can not run a whorehouse efficiently. That goes for the state of MA also.  (I agree with you 100%. Single payer is what the commies in the White Mosque want. They are doing at it in small incremental steps.)

Obamacare and MASScare is unconstitutional. No law that I know of forces you to buy a product. If the government can tell you have to buy health care, it can tell you what kind of car, house, toilet paper, etc. etc. to buy. Defense of this abomination is way off base.
Great post. I agree that the gubberment should stay out of our lives and let the power of individual choice prevail.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 10, 2011, 08:48:27 PM
The non-choice is actually thrust upon the taxpayer, as those who choose not to pay for coverage are inflicting their choice onto that taxpayer when they seek free care at a MA hospital emergency room.   

The consequence of no insurance is $1 billion + a year to the taxpayer. 

Any person (legal or illegal) that reside in this country will not be turned away for emergency care. Gang bangers/drug dealers and others that are brought to the emergency for serious injuries are treated. If they can not pay, the hospital either writes it off or makes it up on those that can pay. This is how the system works. Medicaid also comes into play for the poor who can not pay. In my state, the federal government forks over 70% and the state picks up the remaining 30%. The misinformed that think that people are not getting treated for ER care are mistaken. All that require care, get it. Now, if you have a tummy ache with no insurance, you have a problem. The Mass care was a bad idea from the get go.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 11, 2011, 07:30:32 PM
Any person (legal or illegal) that reside in this country will not be turned away for emergency care. Gang bangers/drug dealers and others that are brought to the emergency for serious injuries are treated. If they can not pay, the hospital either writes it off or makes it up on those that can pay. This is how the system works. Medicaid also comes into play for the poor who can not pay. In my state, the federal government forks over 70% and the state picks up the remaining 30%. The misinformed that think that people are not getting treated for ER care are mistaken. All that require care, get it. Now, if you have a tummy ache with no insurance, you have a problem. The Mass care was a bad idea from the get go.

Uh no.   The states bail out the hospitals for the free care they provide, or the hospital would no longer be in business.    To MA at the time health care reforms were passed, that amount hovered at the $1 billion mark.    Romney wanted to instead of writing a blank check to hospitals every year, use some of those funds to subsidize private health insurance premiums for those uninsured.   

The alternative to bailing out hospitals for free care is denying care to those who can't pay for it (privately or through insurance).   That was the point I was making.   
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 11, 2011, 09:38:36 PM
Uh no.   The states bail out the hospitals for the free care they provide, or the hospital would no longer be in business.    To MA at the time health care reforms were passed, that amount hovered at the $1 billion mark.    Romney wanted to instead of writing a blank check to hospitals every year, use some of those funds to subsidize private health insurance premiums for those uninsured.    

The alternative to bailing out hospitals for free care is denying care to those who can't pay for it (privately or through insurance).   That was the point I was making.  

In LA, hospitals write off accounts that can not be collected or they collect Medicaid funds from the state which represents funds from the Feds and the state. That's how medicaid works. The poor have Medicaid. Those that come into a hospital without private or governmet insurance are NOT reimbursed by this state. The hospital has to eat it.

My point was adding another level of government interference will raise the cost, and there are no two ways about it.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 12, 2011, 06:42:23 AM
This conversation has made me do some more research on this topic.  I found a fascinating article that I am going to post independently in a new thread for discussion. 

Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 12, 2011, 06:53:18 AM
I will post a link to this article here in which several GOP governors wish to opt out of Medicaid and use those funds instead to pay for private health insurance premiums for the uninsured.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/1/8.full

Oh my.   Doesn't that sound familiar?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Wineslob on January 12, 2011, 11:13:35 AM
To Massive-Two-Shitts:  If I can pay out-of-pocket, why am I penalized?
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: formerlurker on January 12, 2011, 11:17:10 AM
To Massive-Two-Shitts:  If I can pay out-of-pocket, why am I penalized?

Ask Deval Patrick.  
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Lacarnut on January 12, 2011, 11:51:26 AM
To Massive-Two-Shitts:  If I can pay out-of-pocket, why am I penalized?

CONTROL. The Federal and State government wants to control your life, what products you can buy and what products are bad for you. We can thank Hillary and Mitt for getting the ball rolling. Obama care will lead to single payer if it is not de-funded or repealed. We are losing our freedoms, folks.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Wineslob on January 12, 2011, 04:45:46 PM
CONTROL. The Federal and State government wants to control your life, what products you can buy and what products are bad for you. We can thank Hillary and Mitt for getting the ball rolling. Obama care will lead to single payer if it is not de-funded or repealed. We are losing our freedoms, folks.

My thoughts also. I can't wait for the lawsuits and the LIBturds trying to show how I am REQUIRED to puchase a service.
Title: Re: Massachusetts ups fine for skipping [health] insurance
Post by: Attero Dominatus on January 12, 2011, 05:03:09 PM
CONTROL. The Federal and State government wants to control your life, what products you can buy and what products are bad for you. We can thank Hillary and Mitt for getting the ball rolling. Obama care will lead to single payer if it is not de-funded or repealed. We are losing our freedoms, folks.

Yep exactly. Ronald Reagan once warned that it will be through healthcare that the government will control our lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs