Author Topic: household fuses  (Read 11944 times)

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Offline franksolich

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household fuses
« on: February 18, 2009, 03:00:07 PM »
Before anybody laughs, remember, one would be surprised at all the things I don't know.  Which is a great deal more than what I do know.

Something happened with the electricity at this house today, and as no one else was around, it was something I had to deal with myself.  This is an old house, and has fuses, rather than a breaker-box.

For the record, I grew up in houses that had only breaker-boxes, and if there were fuses in any of those ancient apartments I rented while in college, I never knew about it, because nothing ever happened with the electricity.

I immediately figured out the source of the problem; a hot-water vaporizer circa 40 years old that's been going for days and days and days, steaming a certain bedroom.  To be sure, I lifted the lid, and oops, the water was cold.

I unplugged that, and to be double sure, I plugged in the bagless vacuum cleaner, which I had just used in the living room.  No go on the vacuum cleaner.  To be triple sure, I plugged in the electric shaver that I had used a couple of hours before.  No go on the electric shaver.

Then I unscrewed the outlet cover, to see if there were any burn marks under the cover.  No burn marks.

So then I went into the basement.  There are four fuses, and none of them had burn or smoked glass, indicating a burned-out fuse.  There are "spare" fuses on a shelf nearby, but they all looked pretty old to me, and so I figured I should just get a new box.  Also, they varied in voltage (wattage?), 15, 20, 25, and somesuch, and all four fuses currently in the box were 30s. 

Having no idea what it might mean if I substituted a 15 or a 20 for a 30, this reinforced my speculation that I should just get a new box of 30-whatever.

I also noticed that while there were no smoke or burn marks, that copper band under the glass of one fuse seemed as if it had snapped in half.

So I went to town to the Ace Hardware store, where I purchase everything from cat-litter to dishes and cookery to furnace filters.

The 30-whatevers in the fuse box had yellow caps, and the lady kindly showed me 30-whatevers with green caps.  I insisted no, this couldn't be right, but she said they were the same thing.....excepting there were two sorts of bases, a wide base and a narrow base.

Commenting that this is a very old house, I inquired which version was older, the wide base or the narrow base.  She said the wide base, and after eyeballing it, I said yeah, sure, that's what it looks like.

I also mentioned the "band" inside one fuse that appeared to have been snapped.  She didn't know, but read the box of fuses; apparently a smoked glass indicates "short circuit," and a broken band indicates "overloaded circuit."

So I came back here, the fuse screwed in correctly, and all appears well.

Now, what would have happened if I had used one of those 15 or 20 or 25 thingamajigs, rather than a 30?

Remember, there's a lot of things I don't know, and that I never alleged to know a lot of things.
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Offline Doc

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 03:12:55 PM »
Frank, the number on the fuse indicates the current rating for the fuse in amperes.......Since you have advised that your house is old, I would doubt that the wiring in the house is of sufficient size to use 30 amp fuses safely, and I suspect that someone has placed them in the box so that they could aviod blowing one.

I would STRONGLY advise that you use no larger than 20-amp fuses in an older building, and a safer bet would be to use 15 amp fuses.  The only way to be absolutely certain is to measure the size (guage) of the wiring in the circuit protected by the fuse.  14-guage wire must be protected by a 15-amp fuse......12-guage wire must be protected by a 20-amp fuse, and in the unlikely event that you  have 10-guage wire, a 30-amp fuse should be used.

You can determine the wire size by clipping off a sample and taking it to either an electrician, or perhaps your hardware store, and comparing it to wire of a known guage.  It is extremely important to use the correct size fuse for your wiring, as failure to do so can cause a serious fire.

doc
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:16:13 PM by TVDOC »

Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 03:17:18 PM »
But I've been here for almost 5 years, and this is the first time anything's happened.

All four fuses were 30s.

There's a marking on the fuse box indicating "1992," but I have no idea what that means.

I guess I'll ask the ancient elderly gentleman who used to mow the lawn here, when I see him.
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Offline debk

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 03:26:12 PM »
Also, take a picture of the fuse box and take it into your hardware store.

Someone there should be able to tell you how old it is, if there are knowledgeable people there.

In a really old house, it could become dangerous, particularly since you are out in the woods, you could have squirrels chewing on the wires and you wouldn't know it.

Might be worth the investment to have an electrician come out and just check out your wiring to be on the safe side.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 03:27:42 PM »
But I've been here for almost 5 years, and this is the first time anything's happened.

All four fuses were 30s.

There's a marking on the fuse box indicating "1992," but I have no idea what that means.

I guess I'll ask the ancient elderly gentleman who used to mow the lawn here, when I see him.

Just because nothing has happened does not mean that the use of these fuses is safe.  If you place a 30-amp load on wiring that is only 14-guage, it will become overheated due to the resistance in the copper wire.  If it becomes hot enough, it may ignite surrounding combustable parts of the house, or actually melt the wiring resulting in an expensive repair.  

The date on the fuse box is really of no importance, as it may indicate the date of an inspection, installation of a new fuse box, or other event not related to the fuses themselves.  Although they can still be purchased, fuses and fuse boxes have not been in wide use in residential applications for nearly half a century.

There is nothing wrong with fuse boxes, so long as the proper size fuses are used for the wire size.  They were replaced by breaker panels due to the fact that breakers are easy to re-set if overloaded, and do not require a trip to the hardware store, therefore more convenient, and less likely to be tampered with by installing the wrong size fuse for the wire in the building.

doc
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Offline Carl

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 03:32:12 PM »
Don`t know about different sizes of them as my old house is the same.
Four screw in fuses with a base the size and thread of a light bulb and then above that two banks of large cartridge fuses which are 50 amp (I think).
I have always bought 20 and 30 amp ones and have not been fussy about what I screwed in.

Guess I would say use 20s so long as the load doesn`t keep burning them out.
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Offline Carl

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 03:34:07 PM »
I should have noted that my household electrical draws are very light so it is somewhat irrelevent what amp fuse I use,I never get close to testing them.

Offline Chris_

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 03:38:41 PM »
Guess I would say use 20s so long as the load doesn`t keep burning them out.

The purpose of the fuse is to protect the integrity of the wire.........it has nothing to do with the load........if you put a fuse in a box that keeps being blown, that is sending you the important message that you are overloading the WIRE (assuming that the proper size fuses are being used).

If this happens you need to REDUCE THE LOAD....not increase the size of the fuse for convenience sake........

doc
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Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 03:45:33 PM »
The purpose of the fuse is to protect the integrity of the wire.........it has nothing to do with the load........if you put a fuse in a box that keeps being blown, that is sending you the important message that you are overloading the WIRE (assuming that the proper size fuses are being used).

If this happens you need to REDUCE THE LOAD....not increase the size of the fuse for convenience sake........

doc

Well, I panicked.

I ran into the neighbor, who called the ancient elderly gentleman on his cellular telephone, and explained the problem.

The ancient elderly gentleman says the whole house was rewired in "the early 1990s" to conform with some sort of new code.

Since I live rather, uh, modestly, the only high-powered electrical appliance here is the refrigerator.  After the refrigerator, just the lights, lamps and fixed fixtures, and of course the blower in the natural gas furnace.  And then there's the computer.  That is all, no other electrical implements.

on edit: this is the first time a fuse has blown on me, and I've been here five years.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:47:22 PM by franksolich »
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Offline Doc

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 03:52:54 PM »
Well, I panicked.

I ran into the neighbor, who called the ancient elderly gentleman on his cellular telephone, and explained the problem.

The ancient elderly gentleman says the whole house was rewired in "the early 1990s" to conform with some sort of new code.

Since I live rather, uh, modestly, the only high-powered electrical appliance here is the refrigerator.  After the refrigerator, just the lights, lamps and fixed fixtures, and of course the blower in the natural gas furnace.  And then there's the computer.  That is all, no other electrical implements.

If that is the case (which is good), it was likely rewired with 12-guage wiring, as that is the industry standard for residential applications.  In that case, use 20-amp fuses in your fuse box.  Use of 30-amp fuses on 12-guage wiring, even if it is relatively new wiring, is still dangerous.  It is still the best to determine the size of the wire for each of your four circuits, and install the correct fuse for that size wire.  Circuits like the one supplying your furnace may be wired with larger wire that can support a 30-amp fuse, but properly determining the wire size for a fuse application is still very important.

doc

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 11:20:18 AM by TVDOC »

Offline Zeus

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 04:10:12 PM »
Well, I panicked.

I ran into the neighbor, who called the ancient elderly gentleman on his cellular telephone, and explained the problem.

The ancient elderly gentleman says the whole house was rewired in "the early 1990s" to conform with some sort of new code.

Since I live rather, uh, modestly, the only high-powered electrical appliance here is the refrigerator.  After the refrigerator, just the lights, lamps and fixed fixtures, and of course the blower in the natural gas furnace.  And then there's the computer.  That is all, no other electrical implements.

on edit: this is the first time a fuse has blown on me, and I've been here five years.

Not that there is anything wrong with it but it seems strange someone would go to the trouble of rewiring a house and not replace the fuse box with a breaker panel. I was under the impression that in most states for insurance purposes when a rewire is done the fuse box has to be replaced with a breaker panel. insurance companies see the convenience to over size the fuse on a circuit as a potential hazard.
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Offline debk

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 05:02:00 PM »
Not that there is anything wrong with it but it seems strange someone would go to the trouble of rewiring a house and not replace the fuse box with a breaker panel. I was under the impression that in most states for insurance purposes when a rewire is done the fuse box has to be replaced with a breaker panel. insurance companies see the convenience to over size the fuse on a circuit as a potential hazard.


Usually a house is switched to breaker boxes here when they are rewired, but since Frank lives in the country, there's probably a county electrical/building code, but not always enforced.
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 05:21:54 PM »
This house had the old style fuses in it back when I was growing up. These were the type of fuse that had a actual replaceable piece of wire in it , and several little rolls of wire tucked away in the box.

The circuits were clearly marked - 10 amp for light / fan, 10 amp for the power , and 15 for each the stove and hot water , as was the wire supplied to replace blown fuses. Of course these ratings would be double for those on 110VAC.




Offline MrsSmith

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 05:48:09 PM »
Well, I panicked.

I ran into the neighbor, who called the ancient elderly gentleman on his cellular telephone, and explained the problem.

The ancient elderly gentleman says the whole house was rewired in "the early 1990s" to conform with some sort of new code.

Since I live rather, uh, modestly, the only high-powered electrical appliance here is the refrigerator.  After the refrigerator, just the lights, lamps and fixed fixtures, and of course the blower in the natural gas furnace.  And then there's the computer.  That is all, no other electrical implements.

on edit: this is the first time a fuse has blown on me, and I've been here five years.
  Frank, I just want to point out that, while your normal use is probably not going to overheat the wires, if you have anything short out, like the vaporizer may have, that item could pull extremely high amps for a while.  Electric stoves run by a controlled heating of "wires."  The wires in your walls could get just as hot, just as quickly.  That is the reason the fuses are set by amperage...the fuse blows before the wires can heat too much.  The higher the rating of the fuse, the hotter the wires could get.  As your normal usage is probably small, you are much safer going with the lower rated fuses!

I've heard people scoff at the idea that 110 can cause this kind of heat...but I once saw someone plug two 9 volt batteries into each other.  Luckily, they were nearly dead when she did it, but they still became hot enough to burn her hand when she took then out of her scrub pocket a few minutes later.  We become far too complacent around electricity...
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 07:28:50 PM »
I've heard people scoff at the idea that 110 can cause this kind of heat...but I once saw someone plug two 9 volt batteries into each other.  Luckily, they were nearly dead when she did it, but they still became hot enough to burn her hand when she took then out of her scrub pocket a few minutes later.  We become far too complacent around electricity...

I wonder how many fires are caused by electrical faults around the world in an average year....Not all of them are from sparks.


Offline Gratiot

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 09:05:33 PM »
Not that there is anything wrong with it but it seems strange someone would go to the trouble of rewiring a house and not replace the fuse box with a breaker panel.

Very strange, so much so, that I'd question if the home was actually rewired versus perhaps just new outlets or something shiny installed.

Offline rich_t

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 09:09:34 PM »
Frank,

The wiring running into the fuse box...  What do they look like?  Cloth/fibrer covered or plactic covered?
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Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2009, 06:48:49 AM »
Frank, The wiring running into the fuse box...  What do they look like?  Cloth/fibrer covered or plactic covered?

Plastic.

A grandson of the ancient elderly gentleman came by late last night, to pick up his completed income taxes.

He said that when he was about 10 years old, the house was rewired, and that would place it in the early 1990s.  It was rewired so as to accomodate a window air-conditioner, a washing machine, a dryer, and an automatic dishwasher.

There are special outlets for all of these things, but currently unused.

The house was occupied until the mid-1980s by an elderly woman a descendant of the original homesteaders (and constructors of the house).  After she died, a rancher rented the property, the idea being that one of his ranch-hands could live here, keeping an eye on his property and cattle at this end of the county (free housing is oftentimes a fringe benefit of ranch-handery).

That didn't quite work out, and so as an inducement to get someone to live here, all this electrical work was done.

But that still didn't work out, because this is in an out-of-the-way place, and wives of ranch-hands prefer to live where the action is; i.e., in the more-populated areas of the county, closer to towns.  Women apparently prefer congested areas.

And so the house was vacant for about ten years, until I came to this area, and by serendipitous chance, and because I was looking around for a better place to accomodate the cats (there were then four then), and wished to get away from the congestion of town life, it was offered to me to live in; in exchange for "rent," I eyeball the cattle and horses kept across the road (I'm not sure for what; nothing's ever happened to them while I've been here).

Since it had been vacant, before I moved out here, per county law, the water, electrical connections, natural gas connections, were checked out.  The county does not have such inspectors; they had to come from the "big city" to do this.  And everything passed with flying colors.

The electric bill for January shows a "usage" of "281;" as mentioned earlier, the only real user of electricity here is the refrigerator.  I have no idea what "281" is, but probably a lot of it is the blower in the natural gas furnace, as January had been, even for Nebraska, an incredibly cold month.

I suspect--and not being an expert, if someone disagrees, holler--the problem was that I had been using an ancient hot-water vaporizer, circa 40-50 years old, constantly for two months, and it finally burned out, causing the problem.

Something in it burned out; I took it apart to look at the insides, before I tossed it.

There is a certain danger to using ancient electrical appliances, but damn it, there are no modern-day equivalents, and so one has to take his chances.  I have never found a new, or even reasonably new, hot-water vaporizer that works like they're supposed to, pumping out steam with the velocity of a steam locomotive, pumping out steam that peels the wallpaper off the walls.

Many electrical appliances are wimps, compared with what they used to be.
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Offline Thor

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2009, 11:03:03 AM »
Frank, TVDOC is 100% correct. You need to determine what size wiring is at the various outlets. It's OK, in an emergency to use a fuse greater than the wire capacity, but it's NOT recommended. The color codes on the fuses demonstrate how quickly the fuse blows. This might help you educate yourself: http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/fuse_types.htm  Be sure to read ALL of the pages PLUS the associated links. Once you determine what values go into the various fuse holders, I would recommend changing them to the mini-breaker style fuse. Standards are: 14 Ga wiring= 15 amp fuse, usually for lights and general use outlets. 12 Ga wiring should be protected by 20 amp fuses. Those outlets where motors and pumps are connected (fridges, sump pumps, air conditioners, dishwashers, washing machines, etc) should be a a slow blow or time delay type fuse. The reason why is that motors often take a little bit more of a draw to start up that what a normal fuse/ circuit breaker allows. I'm fairly certain that there are NO circuits in your house, ESPECIALLY if it's standard wall outlet, that are able to support a 30 amp fuse without placing you & your house in danger.

Here are some examples of what outlets do what. If you notice, under the 120 volt outlets, the one on the right is a 20 amp outlet. (color doesn't matter) and the one on the left is a 15 amp outlet (standard in many homes) Where your AC plugs in, probably should be a 20 amp outlet, but that depends on the wire size feeding that outlet. The NEW electrical codes in most states require that 20 amp wiring be covered in a yellow non-metallic(NM) sheathing for easy identification. IF your wires going into the fuse box are still covered with the sheathing, the sheathing will have the wire gauge stamped on the outside. It may be difficult to read.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
Thanks, Thor, sir, all information helps, and I really appreciate it, and to set all minds at ease, when I'm in the big city this afternoon, I'll stop by a shop, where the brother of the local inebriate (the one who mows the grass out here during the middle of the night) is a professional electrician, and ask him to drop in on his way home.

There's no way I'm going to snip a piece of live wire, to take in.

I don't think that's what was suggested--of course not--but what other way does one get a wire sample?

But I suspect there's a lack of thorough reading here (my fault, because my posts are always so long, and attention lags)--

(a) This has never happened before, until yesterday; so for 4+ years, I've been living with 4 30-amp fuses in the fuse box, the ones that were here when I moved here, after the system had been checked and approved.

I replaced the one fuse with a 30-amp fuse because I don't know excresence about electricity, and when in doubt, one should probably go with what's been there before.

If fuses had repeatedly blown the past 4+ years, yes, no, don't do that, as obviously what's in there is wrong.  But if nothing's been wrong, probably best to go with what's been there before.

In my uneducated opinion.

(b) I do not use, nor have I ever used, anything electrical more power-using than just the refrigerator.  There are those special outlets for a couple of heavy-duty window air-conditioners, a special outlet for an automatic dishwasher, and two special outlets for a washing machine and dryer.

I assume those are hooked up to the fuse box.

However, I do not use such appliances, and there are no such appliances currently in this house to use, if I wanted to use them.  The refrigerator is it.

(c) Fire has always been of great concern to me, since day one here.  This is a very old house, dry as tinder, and it's probable, given the way other things in real life are shaping up, I'm the last occupant of this house.

When I am away--even on a twenty-minute round-trip to town--there is nothing that is running, other than the refrigerator.  No lights, no lamps, no small kitchen appliances, not even the computer.  In the winter, just before going out the door, I slam the furnace thermostat down to 56 degrees, so as to lessen the likelihood of the fan having to "kick in" while I'm gone.

I've always been this way--something I picked up as a little kid.  Since I can't hear, if something's out of my sight, I don't want it running.  I want it shut off.

It considerably simplifies life, doing that.

Now, I'll report back, and I have a feeling this professional electrician is going to confirm what everyone on this thread has said.....although since he'll actually eyeball it, rather than read about it, his solutions may vary.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2009, 11:44:44 AM »
If you want to take a sample of the wire Frank, plug a lamp into one of your outlets, and then remove the fuses in the box one at a time until the lamp is no longer lit........the circuit is now dead.  Now you can remove the plate and outlet, snip off a piece of the wire, and restrip the remaining end an reconnect it to the outlet.  Reassemble the outlet and reinstall the fuse......

Also, if there is a place in the house where the wiring is exposed, and it is relatively new wiring, you can look at the plastic "sheath" or jacket that covers the wire, and it will typically be stamped with the wire size.  It should read something like "12 AWG".   The number is the wire size, and the AWG stands for "American Wire Guage".

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Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2009, 11:47:51 AM »
Thanks, doc, sir, and I will keep that for future reference; but for right now, since an electrician will be looking at it about suppertime today anyway, I'll have him show me.

I don't see any place where the wiring's really exposed, although that doesn't mean it's not there.  It means only that I don't see it.

But we'll see, in a few hours.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2009, 12:46:31 PM »
I'm also going to guess that the "upgrade" to the system (1990's) was, most likely, to added circuits, and not the original ones.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2009, 07:56:49 PM »
Okay, the electrician who had to work late this evening, was here.

By the way, he read all the comments, and says every single one of them, no matter who said them, is absolutely correct.

The wiring is 12-gauge.

He suggested that "When convenient, like when you're shopping next week, yeah, sure, get some 20-amp fuses, but in the meantime, no point in getting all excited about it."

As he described in terms I of course understand, "Your system here's like you have 300 horsepower of power, but at the most you're only using 20-30-40 horsepower of it."

I showed him the array of fuses left in the basement--I hadn't had time to toss them yet--and he immediately figured out what had been going on, eight or ten years ago.

"Somebody just kept going to the hardware store and buying fuses without paying attention." 

Most of these abandoned fuses had the small base, not the large base, and wouldn't have worked anyway.

This electrician has lived around here all his life, and knows what's been going on; he said the code allows for grandfathering fuse boxes and that at the time the place was rewired, since ownership of the property was in doubt and the house is so old it would have to be torn down sometime anyway, no point in paying for anything other than the minimum.

"You'll put a $30 part in a $200 car, but you're not going to put a $1200 transmission in a $200 car," that sort of thing.

He also suggested I quit buying electrical appliances at antique stores.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: household fuses
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2009, 07:59:47 PM »
I'm happy to hear that the electrician basically said you have nothing to worry about.

But make sure ot get those 20 amp fuses as he recommends.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944