Author Topic: Obamacare Oral Arguments Day 2 - The Mandate (Not Looking Good for Obamacare)  (Read 6955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline txradioguy

  • Minister of Propaganda
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18686
  • Reputation: +1291/-1116
  • Rule 39
TRG - it's my firm belief that the chuckleheads who willingly and knowingly surrender their personal choice and freedom do so because they've been coddled. They've never known a time when they DIDN'T have a choice and DIDN'T have personal freedom.

They don't know what they're giving up because they've never not had it. Simple as that. You don't miss it until you don't have it.

Unless you've served to protect those freedoms. And even then, some of those with whom I served are staggeringly stupid with their embrace of socialism. That right there just blows me away...

I'm torn between believing what you said above and believing that they just don't care.  Libtards never beleive in personal responsibility....and they preach it and put it into practice so much in every day life that I honestly tend to beleive that people that support Obama care are perfectly content with being taken care of and never doing anything for themselves.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Creator of the largest Fight Club thread ever!

http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=83285.0

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
I'm torn between believing what you said above and believing that they just don't care.  Libtards never beleive in personal responsibility....and they preach it and put it into practice so much in every day life that I honestly tend to beleive that people that support Obama care are perfectly content with being taken care of and never doing anything for themselves.

Well, maybe it's semantics or saying the same thing a slightly different way. Based on your description, I wouldn't characterize the lib approach as being "non-caring." It's just they have every confidence in the government to make an entire raft of decisions for them.

We've both been around the government to know just how ****ed up it can be and the folly of trusting the government to do much of anything correctly other than to maybe collect taxes.

I suppose a libtard might draw the line at the government selecting what kind of underwear to wear (whether or not it's clean), but they have no problem with the government deciding the type, kind, brand and occasion of health care IT is providing -- not to mention the government mandating the actual participation in a system that COTUS directs toward the states.
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline wasp69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7566
  • Reputation: +900/-520
  • Hillbilly Yeti
You're right about that. They're just as nice and easy going as Frank....until you stir them up.

Quote from: Charlie Daniels - "Simple Man"
Now I'm the kinda man that'd not harm a mouse
But if I catch somebody breakin in my house
I've got twelve gauge shotgun waiting on the other side

So don't go pushing me against my will
I don't want to have to fight you but I dern sure will
So if you don't want trouble then you'd better just pass me on by

 ;)
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

C.S. Lewis

A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline wasp69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7566
  • Reputation: +900/-520
  • Hillbilly Yeti
So the basic argument from the Government is ...

Well, hello there, Sergeant First Class.  Good to see you back.
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

C.S. Lewis

A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline trentamj

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 5
  • Reputation: +1/-0
I'm glad to that the folks in this forum, collectively-speaking, are catching all the angles that the Supremes are playing with the orals arguments process. Sometimes a Supreme will reveal his or her intention, and sometimes he or she is doing a head-fake, so I while certain words may please, I don't want to fall for anyone's verbal tricks because in the end, the oral arguments phase is strictly Kabuki Theatre, inasmuch as the real exchange will occur during the private deliberations of the justices. You can bet that, no matter what arguments all the lawyers might present, the good Supreme Court justices have EVEN  MORE ideas and opinions rattling around in THEIR OWN skulls: Does anyone care to wager that such ideas WON'T carry any weight? No matter how this case turns out, peoples' hearts and souls WILL be revealed to anyone with working eyes!  :old:

Offline Splashdown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6729
  • Reputation: +475/-100
  • Out of 9 lives, I spent 7
Call me a wild-eyed optimist, but I think it's going down. Even Kennedy said the law represents a "fundamental change" in the relationship of the government to the people.

If the Court approves this, there are zero limits to federal power. That's what Kennedy's line of questioning pointed out to me. The SG had no answer at all to this. It's a shame for Obama that TOTUS wasn't allowed into the room.
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
--St. Theresa of Avila



"No crushed ice; no peas." -- Undies

Offline Rebel

  • Stick a fork in us. We're done.
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16771
  • Reputation: +1240/-215
Quote
Perhaps the most interesting point to emerge so far is that Justice Kennedy’s questions suggest that he believes that the mandate has profound implications for individual liberty: he asked multiple times whether the mandate fundamentally changes the relationship between the government and individuals, so that it must surpass a special burden.

Why didn't Kennedy understand these same implications when he ruled against Susette Kelo in Kelo vs. New London, Ct.?
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

Quote
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline TVDOC

  • General Malcontent and
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Reputation: +165/-3
  • Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Why didn't Kennedy understand these same implications when he ruled against Susette Kelo in Kelo vs. New London, Ct.?

Based on my (admittedly brief) review of his opinion in this case he determined it to be a "micro" rather than a "macro" issue regarding constitionality, inasmuch as the COTUS prevents federal intervention into (most local) issues, however leaves powers vested in the states (and communities).......since this was essentially a community issue, he determined that New London's actions were "constitutional" in the strictest sense of the term.

Their (New London's) motivations for taking this action is where the disagreement entered the fray, he broadly remained above that........whichever side of this issue you come down on personally, he basically punted constitutionally, and it's hard to argue with his logic.

Since this decision, a flurry of state statutes have been passed to prevent such actions, and in his view, this is where the responsibility really lies to regulate such activities.

doc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 11:15:07 AM by TVDOC »
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius

Offline njpines

  • It's a Hoagie not a
  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3890
  • Reputation: +590/-31
  • Hi, I'm Sue!
Call me a wild-eyed optimist, but I think it's going down. Even Kennedy said the law represents a "fundamental change" in the relationship of the government to the people.

If the Court approves this, there are zero limits to federal power. That's what Kennedy's line of questioning pointed out to me. The SG had no answer at all to this. It's a shame for Obama that TOTUS wasn't allowed into the room.

Maybe not so wild-eyed, Splash
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-justices-poised-to-strike-down-entire-healthcare-law-20120328,0,2058481.story

Quote
Reporting from Washington— The Supreme Court's conservative justices said Wednesday they are prepared to strike down President Obama’s healthcare law entirely.

Picking up where they left off Tuesday, the conservatives said they thought a decision striking down the law's controversial individual mandate to purchase health insurance means the whole statute should fall with it.

The court’s conservatives sounded as though they had determined for themselves that the 2,700-page measure must be declared unconstitutional.

Agreeing, Justice Anthony Kennedy said it would be an "extreme proposition" to allow the various insurance regulations to stand after the mandate was struck down.
Piney Power!!

Grow your own dope -- plant a Democrat!

"We will preserve for our children (America), the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done."  -- Ronald Reagan.

"Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you." -- Quest for the Holy Grail

Offline wasp69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7566
  • Reputation: +900/-520
  • Hillbilly Yeti
Their (New London's) motivations for taking this action is where the disagreement entered the fray, he broadly remained above that........whichever side of this issue you come down on personally, he basically punted constitutionally, and it's hard to argue with his logic.

Since this decision, a flurry of state statutes have been passed to prevent such actions, and in his view, this is where the responsibility really lies to regulate such activities.

doc

That's pretty much the way I saw it as well.
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

C.S. Lewis

A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline TVDOC

  • General Malcontent and
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Reputation: +165/-3
  • Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Quote
Reporting from Washington— The Supreme Court's conservative justices said Wednesday they are prepared to strike down President Obama’s healthcare law entirely.

Picking up where they left off Tuesday, the conservatives said they thought a decision striking down the law's controversial individual mandate to purchase health insurance means the whole statute should fall with it.

Technically they may have no choice......since the Democrats failed to include a severability clause.......

doc
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Technically they may have no choice......since the Democrats failed to include a severability clause.......

doc

Which is what I don't get. From what I've read, there was a severablility clause in it but they took it out.  That can't be blamed on the GOP since they were locked out of the negotiations.

Offline TVDOC

  • General Malcontent and
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Reputation: +165/-3
  • Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Which is what I don't get. From what I've read, there was a severablility clause in it but they took it out.  That can't be blamed on the GOP since they were locked out of the negotiations.

Well......it depends upon how much Machiavellian paranoia you want to assign to the Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Socialists long-range goals on this issue.........their goal is "Single Payer", and dumping Obamacare places them in position to implement that should they ever regain enough power.........

Me......I don't see them as that smart.........

doc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 11:52:18 AM by TVDOC »
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius

Offline BlueStateSaint

  • Here I come to save the day, because I'm a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32553
  • Reputation: +1560/-191
  • RIP FDNY Lt. Rich Nappi d. 4/16/12
James Carville and Dingy Harry have already come out and said that if it is overturned, it's a win for Democrats.  I fail to see how, but if it is upheld, the Republicans would have no problem winning the Presidency as well as getting a fillibuster-proof Senate, IMO.

I think it goes down 5-4.  They may be taking their 'straw poll' even as I type.  (I heard last night that this is their procedure, and writing the opinions take the time involved in it.)
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk!" -Ayn Rand
 
"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

"These anti-gun fools are more dangerous to liberty than street criminals or foreign spies."--Theodore Haas, Dachau Survivor

Chase her.
Chase her even when she's yours.
That's the only way you'll be assured to never lose her.

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
Technically they may have no choice......since the Democrats failed to include a severability clause.......

doc

Yep, and now the $64,000 Question:

The failure of Obamacare (should it come to pass) is going to be blamed on whom (by the voters)?

Pelousy?
Dingy Harry?
"Plugs" Biden ("This is a big f'n deal!")
or Barry?

Furthermore, how does this impact Romney's apparent climb to the RNC nomination?

All of this is probably worthy of a new thread, but I just thought I'd throw it out there now.
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline Splashdown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6729
  • Reputation: +475/-100
  • Out of 9 lives, I spent 7
James Carville and Dingy Harry have already come out and said that if it is overturned, it's a win for Democrats.  I fail to see how, but if it is upheld, the Republicans would have no problem winning the Presidency as well as getting a fillibuster-proof Senate, IMO.

I think it goes down 5-4.  They may be taking their 'straw poll' even as I type.  (I heard last night that this is their procedure, and writing the opinions take the time involved in it.)

Carville is pretty smart. Reid is a moron. Not quite sure what to think about their opinion.
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
--St. Theresa of Avila



"No crushed ice; no peas." -- Undies

Offline TVDOC

  • General Malcontent and
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Reputation: +165/-3
  • Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Yep, and now the $64,000 Question:

The failure of Obamacare (should it come to pass) is going to be blamed on whom (by the voters)?

Pelousy?
Dingy Harry?
"Plugs" Biden ("This is a big f'n deal!")
or Barry?

Furthermore, how does this impact Romney's apparent climb to the RNC nomination?

All of this is probably worthy of a new thread, but I just thought I'd throw it out there now.


Regardless of what the MSM/Liberal "spin machine" states publicly, this is Obama's signature issue for his presidency, the only basis for any "legacy" at all........if this goes down, the electorate will breathe a huge sigh of relief, as many don't trust the Republicans to repeal it (especially Romney),  as to who gets the blame, I don't think anyone cares except the Liberal base......who will be greatly disheartened......this was their best opportunity since FDR to make large advances in their agenda......and they failed miserably......

The Obama administration will fall into obscurity far behind Carter, America's first "Affirmative Action" president, and in their heart of hearts, most will believe that it turned out just like everything else that Affirmative Action has spawned.....as a "speed bump" in American history.....a mistake that was corrected.

Tough shit.....

doc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:08:19 PM by TVDOC »
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius

Offline Rebel

  • Stick a fork in us. We're done.
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16771
  • Reputation: +1240/-215
Based on my (admittedly brief) review of his opinion in this case he determined it to be a "micro" rather than a "macro" issue regarding constitionality, inasmuch as the COTUS prevents federal intervention into (most local) issues, however leaves powers vested in the states (and communities).......since this was essentially a community issue, he determined that New London's actions were "constitutional" in the strictest sense of the term.

Their (New London's) motivations for taking this action is where the disagreement entered the fray, he broadly remained above that........whichever side of this issue you come down on personally, he basically punted constitutionally, and it's hard to argue with his logic.

Since this decision, a flurry of state statutes have been passed to prevent such actions, and in his view, this is where the responsibility really lies to regulate such activities.

doc

Wouldn't that, in itself, be unconstitutional? Say a state or city comes in and wants to condemn my property and give it to a private investment firm that wants to build a shopping mall, giving the state and/or city more tax revenue than I would give. I bring up the 4th Amendment which states:

 "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

and tell them it's illegal for them to seize my property. When they ask on what constitutional basis I'm making my argument for using the 4th Amendment, I bring up the 5th Amendment:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

and since this isn't "for public use", they have no basis. Will they say, "Oh, well it's not the federal government doing it, it's the state or local government doing it. Hmm, Ok, well how about Article VI, Section 2:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Which states the US Constitution overrides any state Constitution when the two conflict.

I think that was one of the most disastrous rulings in the past 50 years. It did more to harm individual freedom than any other ruling in the past. Without the right to private property, there is no freedom.
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

Quote
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline TVDOC

  • General Malcontent and
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Reputation: +165/-3
  • Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Wouldn't that, in itself, be unconstitutional? Say a state or city comes in and wants to condemn my property and give it to a private investment firm that wants to build a shopping mall, giving the state and/or city more tax revenue than I would give. I bring up the 4th Amendment which states:

 "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

and tell them it's illegal for them to seize my property. When they ask on what constitutional basis I'm making my argument for using the 4th Amendment, I bring up the 5th Amendment:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

and since this isn't "for public use", they have no basis. Will they say, "Oh, well it's not the federal government doing it, it's the state or local government doing it. Hmm, Ok, well how about Article VI, Section 2:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Which states the US Constitution overrides any state Constitution when the two conflict.

I think that was one of the most disastrous rulings in the past 50 years. It did more to harm individual freedom than any other ruling in the past. Without the right to private property, there is no freedom.

Well......I won't argue the decision, I only attempted to describe Kennedy's opinion and the logic behind it (as I interpret it)........COTUS grants Eminent Domain, but doesn't state specifically for what use it can be applied........

Kennedy took the position that it was up to the states to decide what is appropriate in that regard........

Personally, I find that when a SCOTUS Justice finds for less federal intervention in local affairs, it's hard for a conservative to fault him/her on strict principle..........Kennedy did that with his opinion......hence my comment that I find it hard to disagree.  Do I like the decision?  Not necessarily, but I understand the basis upon which the case was decided.

doc
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius

Offline Kyle Ricky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7596
  • Reputation: +614/-1086
It doesn't look good for the bill. Some of the justices are saying that the individual mandate is the main issue. If they do keep it in tact, they will take that out. And the individual mandate is what Obama wants. I feel bad for him, not.

Offline Rebel

  • Stick a fork in us. We're done.
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16771
  • Reputation: +1240/-215
It doesn't look good for the bill. Some of the justices are saying that the individual mandate is the main issue. If they do keep it in tact, they will take that out. And the individual mandate is what Obama wants. I feel bad for him, not.

Without the mandate, there is no Obamacare.
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

Quote
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Without the mandate, there is no Obamacare.

Without the mandate, ObamaCare would drive the insurance companies into bankruptcy. 

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
Regardless of what the MSM/Liberal "spin machine" states publicly, this is Obama's signature issue for his presidency, the only basis for any "legacy" at all........if this goes down, the electorate will breathe a huge sigh of relief, as many don't trust the Republicans to repeal it (especially Romney),  as to who gets the blame, I don't think anyone cares except the Liberal base......who will be greatly disheartened......this was their best opportunity since FDR to make large advances in their agenda......and they failed miserably......

The Obama administration will fall into obscurity far behind Carter, America's first "Affirmative Action" president, and in their heart of hearts, most will believe that it turned out just like everything else that Affirmative Action has spawned.....as a "speed bump" in American history.....a mistake that was corrected.

Tough shit.....

doc

No argument from me on any of that, especially the part about the electorate not trusting the Repubs to repeal Obamacare -- especially if Romney should win the election. Not only would Obamacare stay, I can see some effort by a Romney administration to STRENGTHEN Obamacare, meaning increase the chokehold level on the country. Such efforts would be spun as "tweaking" or "working the kinks" out of the law, but as Romney practically invented Obamacare as it turned out to be, he likes it more than he says he does.

Romney is a liar and he, like most politicians say what's necessary to get elected because the electorate has a very, very short memory.

And the only other politician I've ever heard that lies more blatantly than Romney is Barry.
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline rich_t

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7942
  • Reputation: +386/-429
  • TANSTAAFL
Technically they may have no choice......since the Democrats failed to include a severability clause.......

doc

That is my understanding as well.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline rich_t

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7942
  • Reputation: +386/-429
  • TANSTAAFL
Without the mandate, ObamaCare would drive the insurance companies into bankruptcy. 

This paving the way to a single payer system, which IMO, has been the plan all along.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944