Author Topic: Faith and UFO's  (Read 13345 times)

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Offline vesta111

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Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 05:13:29 PM »
"UFOs" were addressed throughout the old testament. Look in Ezekiel & Daniel. What do you think that Jesus' ascension was??
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2010, 07:37:22 PM »
"UFOs" were addressed throughout the old testament. Look in Ezekiel & Daniel. What do you think that Jesus' ascension was??

Oh crap.....you had to go and do it, in THIS forum too........MrsSmith is gonna kick your butt for that comment.......and likely drag me into it as well......I might as well toss this in FC right now......

doc
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Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 09:44:01 PM »
Oh crap.....you had to go and do it, in THIS forum too........MrsSmith is gonna kick your butt for that comment.......and likely drag me into it as well......I might as well toss this in FC right now......

doc

She can try, but anything she may have to say will fall on blind eyes because I've carefully considered this subject over the years, my own studies of the Bible (and the Apocrypha)  and formed my own opinion.  ;)

She's entitled to believe how she wants to and I'm entitled to my own beliefs. That doesn't make me any less Christian.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 11:58:29 AM »
Using UFOs to explain away Biblical events is just an excuse to deny the Word of God.

If a person is going to justify his unbelief...please don't just make up stuff.

The article is plain silly. Show me photos and physical evidence from the UFOs or it didn't happen.
This is America and nutty people are always claiming things. Free speech means you have to tolerate the nutcases, like I tolerate you, Vesta.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 12:21:32 PM by Mr Mannn »

Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 12:12:09 PM »
Using UFOs to explain away Biblical events is just an excuse to deny the Word of God.

If a person is going to justify his unbelief...please don't just make up stuff.

The article is plain silly. She me photos and physical evidence from the UFOs or it didn't happen.
This is America and nutty people are always claiming things. Free speech means you have to tolerate the nutcases, like I tolerate you, Vesta.

Send me evidence of God or God doesn't exist!!  ::) 

Oooooooopppppppppps......... you can't. Also, please explain the many references throughout the bible to UFOs, (extra-terrestrials, spaceships, etc) Nutcases?? Seriously ?? You've got to be shitting me. Nutcases are those that follow a religion to a "T", without question or without free thinking. To only think in "black & white" is beyond absurd.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 12:43:26 PM »
My religion is based on faith.

But UFOs are not religious icons and I need solid evidence to believe them. I know UFOs are fun to believe in...but did I step your sacred cow?

A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object. It's not a spaceship...its just unidentified. at this moment there has not been one single piece if physical evidence to prove that a Spaceship has landed. No one has showed up with an alien flashlight or even an ET cigarette butt to show "They" have been here.

I know the excuse that there is a massive worldwide cover-up is floated as the excuse for the lack of evidence. But there are several things wrong with that.

1) If the govts of the world were so concerned about UFO there would be far more unity against a perceived threat.

2) idiots and liberals cannot keep secrets. They would have blabbed by now. Certainly Iran's Imanutjob would have said something by now.
2A) Take for instance that most of the third world is ruled by corruption and bribery. Why hasn't an enterprising reporter (backed by a big news org) simply bribed his way to serious evidence...or at least a photo that isn't out of focus?

3) Photos. Photos can be faked. CGI is available to anyone with a computer. Still all the photos presented are out of focus. If we can get pictures of Rodney King being beaten, where is the photo os a spacecraft with the door open? Where is the photo of an alien walking about?

Religious faith is one thing. The faithful believe, the infidels do not.

UFOs are something else. they are supposed to be factual. That means I need more than just faith to believe in them. When i hear some guy talk about how he saw a light in the sky that followed him home, and now he believes in extra terestials...I say nutcase. All he saw was a light. The line between a light in the sky and an alien spaceship is pretty broad: it tales a leap of faith to believe UFOs are spaceships.

--Bottom line: UFOs are NOT a religion. Faith doesn't cut it with aliens.
I'm justified to use the name nutcase. I don't need to show proof of God, you either believe or burn. Wild claims like aliens abducting Billy Joe Bob need some type of evidence.

Offline vesta111

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 01:11:17 PM »
Using UFOs to explain away Biblical events is just an excuse to deny the Word of God.

If a person is going to justify his unbelief...please don't just make up stuff.

The article is plain silly. Show me photos and physical evidence from the UFOs or it didn't happen.
This is America and nutty people are always claiming things. Free speech means you have to tolerate the nutcases, like I tolerate you, Vesta.

Mr. Mannn, How do you explain coincidences or miracles, or accidents that lead to discovery's that benefit human kind.?

How do you explain the fact that for thousands of years the Bible has survived and every day new discovery by scientists give proof of the actual happenings at that time. Finding the Rosetta Stone was a true Miracle as was finding the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Why now have our astronauts and military officers decided to reveal the inexplicable things that they saw with their own lying eyes.?

Why did the UN decide we need an Ambassador to off world Alians if and when they visitor have they all ready and we need to find a way to keep our religious faith intact.?

Actually, for me it is easier to believe that these UFO are us, humans from the future then to believe they come from outer space.

I can not see any reason to believe that science and religion are separate, I was taught to believe that both are like the wings of a dove, if one wing is lost the dove cannot fly. Both science and religion seem to in the long run prove each other out.

Thanks for tolerating me Mr. Mannn, I  :heart: you too.

Offline Doc

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 01:36:31 PM »
I don't have a "dog in this fight", and I didn't read the material at Vesta's link, and don't view the presence (or lack thereof) of UFOs from a religious perspective, but from a scientific one. And based solely on the mathematical probability that extraterrestrial life does exist, it isn't such a great leap to the possibility that they might, however remote that possibility might be.

That said, I had the opportunity to spend a brief time with several Kabbalistic scholars and Rabbis at Yeshiva University in Israel, some years ago, and the possibility of ancient visitations being at the root of many of the rather bizare events described in the Tanakh is a topic of ongoing debate among even the most devout of these scholars........of further interest is the fact that they certainly don't view such a possibility as a challenge to their faith, just a possible explanation of events.

Interestingly, Judaism being at its base, the roots of Christianity, unlike many Christians, the Jews (at least those who study) view interpretation of the Scriptures as an "evolving process" that has been ongoing for thousands of years, where Christians seem to trend toward accepting them at "face value", and lack either the interest or the ecumenical motivation to delve in depth into such interpretive studies........many discussions here have more than demonstrated that tendency.

All are certainly free to interpret their religion as they wish, however, as I have spent a substantial portion of my life as a "student", I will always seek to find truth far beyond where many have ceased to pursue it.  I further refuse to accept the premise that the quest for additional knowledge, or alternative explanations to events in Scripture as a "sin"......

(Archbishop) Thomas Becket once said......"The quest for new knowledge and greater spiritual understanding is the highest calling of the faithful......"

doc
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 01:55:30 PM by TVDOC »

Offline thundley4

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 02:00:22 PM »
I don't believe in UFOs anymore.

Offline cavegal

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2010, 02:14:03 PM »
Oh is it that time of the year again. UFO's or Chucacabra sightings?   :beer:


“Look, we’re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he’s got something else in mind,”  Donald J.Trump. 6/13/16

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2010, 02:15:52 PM »
Mr. Mannn, How do you explain coincidences or miracles, or accidents that lead to discovery's that benefit human kind.?
I do NOT blame it on aliens. Aliens did not cause the Red Sea to part: God did.
That's how I explain it. God did just what He said He did.
In the same way, I believe men built the pyramids, with sweat, hard work, and a little brain power-UFO's or alien technology were never needed..

How do you explain the fact that for thousands of years the Bible has survived and every day new discovery by scientists give proof of the actual happenings at that time. Finding the Rosetta Stone was a true Miracle as was finding the Dead Sea Scrolls.
God is powerful enough to preserve His revealed Word to us exactly the way He wants it. The fact that history only verifies the events in the Bible, simply add to the veracity of God's Word. The Dead Sea Scrolls are important because they preserve scripture from a 1000 years earlier than other sources--and the scripture is written EXACTLY the same as it is today. God can work miracles, We do not need to explain away history with phantom aliens that were never there. Physical scripture is more evidence than any pop-culture theory to explain away the miraculous.

Why now have our astronauts and military officers decided to reveal the inexplicable things that they saw with their own lying eyes.?
What they saw were unidentified lights. I've seen the points of light filmed by the astronauts. No one got close enough to see view ports or rivets in the hull. It makes for a nice story, but a moving point of light is not a spaceship. I need more evidence for that.

Why did the UN decide we need an Ambassador to off world Alians if and when they visitor have they all ready and we need to find a way to keep our religious faith intact.?
The UN does silly stuff every day. They want to tax US citizens for water on our own soil?
POINT: If there was an imminent contact with aliens (being kept secret from the people), the govts of the world leaders would be acting very different than they are now.  

Actually, for me it is easier to believe that these UFO are us, humans from the future then to believe they come from outer space.
---That takes a greater leap of faith than linking lights in the sky to spaceships. Sorry I don't buy that either.

I can not see any reason to believe that science and religion are separate, I was taught to believe that both are like the wings of a dove, if one wing is lost the dove cannot fly. Both science and religion seem to in the long run prove each other out.

Thanks for tolerating me Mr. Mannn, I  :heart: you too.
Science and religion are not opposed to each other. Science is just the study of God's creation.
But UFOs and visitors from the future are the stuff of fantasy--modern mythology if you like. People in the dark ages spoke of goblins and dragons. We replaced them with aliens and men from the future.

I have never said that I do not believe aliens exist. Maybe they are out there. I'm just not convinced that earthlings have been visited by aliens. Not yet.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 02:18:16 PM by Mr Mannn »

Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2010, 02:55:46 PM »
I do NOT blame it on aliens. Aliens did not cause the Red Sea to part: God did.
That's how I explain it. God did just what He said He did.

And just WHO is "God"??? Can you PROVE that God parted the Red Sea?? No, you can't. I will say that there is more written evidence to support that visitors from another planet (or time) have come to Earth.

Quote
In the same way, I believe men built the pyramids, with sweat, hard work, and a little brain power-UFO's or alien technology were never needed..

No, I think that you're wrong, at least in the time frame that is alleged that the pyramids were built. Also, Humans weren't so intelligent in that era that they could get the alignment as closely as they did to true North.

Quote
God is powerful enough to preserve His revealed Word to us exactly the way He wants it. The fact that history only verifies the events in the Bible, simply add to the veracity of God's Word. The Dead Sea Scrolls are important because they preserve scripture from a 1000 years earlier than other sources--and the scripture is written EXACTLY the same as it is today. God can work miracles, We do not need to explain away history with phantom aliens that were never there. Physical scripture is more evidence than any pop-culture theory to explain away the miraculous.


Again, I disagree, for the most part. The Bible was written by men and assembled by men. (Research Constantine at 325 A.D.)


Quote
What they saw were unidentified lights. I've seen the points of light filmed by the astronauts. No one got close enough to see view ports or rivets in the hull. It makes for a nice story, but a moving point of light is not a spaceship. I need more evidence for that.
The UN does silly stuff every day. They want to tax US citizens for water on our own soil?
POINT: If there was an imminent contact with aliens (being kept secret from the people), the govts of the world leaders would be acting very different than they are now.  
---That takes a greater leap of faith than linking lights in the sky to spaceships. Sorry I don't buy that either.
Science and religion are not opposed to each other. Science is just the study of God's creation.
But UFOs and visitors from the future are the stuff of fantasy--modern mythology if you like. People in the dark ages spoke of goblins and dragons. We replaced them with aliens and men from the future.

I have never said that I do not believe aliens exist. Maybe they are out there. I'm just not convinced that earthlings have been visited by aliens. Not yet.


The why are there distinct drawings and distinct pictures of spacecraft that pre-date our ventures into space by THOUSANDS of years which CANNOT be debunked?


Like vesta stated, there is No reason that science & religion cannot be blended and in all actuality, there is MORE reason for science & religion to be blended.  I also don't buy the strictly scientific attempts at explaining away some of the historic religious miracles. Those "miracles" were far too coincidental to be explained in the way that some folks try.

Explain the Manna Machine. There is PROOF that it existed and even further proof that it worked. Who or what gave the Israelites that machine? Who taught them how it worked??

Hell, let's go back to the beginning, Genesis.... To summarize, God made Adam from dust. OK. Then how did God change dust into a human. MY answer is some sort of genetic manipulation. An even better example of cloning is when God made Eve from Adam's rib.

And in Exodus: 19:9. The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

This is typical of some extra-terrestrial visits. There was also something about a barren woman (I want to say Sarah, but I could be wrong) who was fairly aged and all of a sudden was able to bear children.

Then we can get into the New Testament and the Virgin Mary. This represents an alien abduction and implantation. Was Jesus a human-alien hybrid?? Possibly.

Like I said, you are not going to change my mind on the matter. I do NOT intend to change yours. In the end, we'll know what the truth is.

"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2010, 04:48:33 PM »
Perhaps a more interesting question arises from this:

Quote
Hell, let's go back to the beginning, Genesis.... To summarize, God made Adam from dust. OK. Then how did God change dust into a human. MY answer is some sort of genetic manipulation. An even better example of cloning is when God made Eve from Adam's rib.

Where exactly, did Cain and Abel's wives come from?  There is no discussion in Genesis of God creating additional humans.......

Jewish Kabbalists believe that Adam and Eve, although created by God, were not the ONLY humans (or humaniods) on earth at the time........Adam and Eve were the "chosen", but they were not the sole human inhabitants of the planet....... :fuelfire:

doc
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2010, 05:02:42 PM »
And just WHO is "God"??? Can you PROVE that God parted the Red Sea?? No, you can't. I will say that there is more written evidence to support that visitors from another planet (or time) have come to Earth.
 
No, I think that you're wrong, at least in the time frame that is alleged that the pyramids were built. Also, Humans weren't so intelligent in that era that they could get the alignment as closely as they did to true North.
 

Again, I disagree, for the most part. The Bible was written by men and assembled by men. (Research Constantine at 325 A.D.)


The why are there distinct drawings and distinct pictures of spacecraft that pre-date our ventures into space by THOUSANDS of years which CANNOT be debunked?


Like vesta stated, there is No reason that science & religion cannot be blended and in all actuality, there is MORE reason for science & religion to be blended.  I also don't buy the strictly scientific attempts at explaining away some of the historic religious miracles. Those "miracles" were far too coincidental to be explained in the way that some folks try.

Explain the Manna Machine. There is PROOF that it existed and even further proof that it worked. Who or what gave the Israelites that machine? Who taught them how it worked??

Hell, let's go back to the beginning, Genesis.... To summarize, God made Adam from dust. OK. Then how did God change dust into a human. MY answer is some sort of genetic manipulation. An even better example of cloning is when God made Eve from Adam's rib.

And in Exodus: 19:9. The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

This is typical of some extra-terrestrial visits. There was also something about a barren woman (I want to say Sarah, but I could be wrong) who was fairly aged and all of a sudden was able to bear children.

Then we can get into the New Testament and the Virgin Mary. This represents an alien abduction and implantation. Was Jesus a human-alien hybrid?? Possibly.

Like I said, you are not going to change my mind on the matter. I do NOT intend to change yours. In the end, we'll know what the truth is.




[/quote]
Then we can get into the New Testament and the Virgin Mary. This represents an alien abduction and implantation. Was Jesus a human-alien hybrid?? Possibly.


Thor, this brings to mind a Catholic Priest that made mention that even if the story of Immaculate conception did not occur as written, nether the less Mary was the mother of Jesus----A riot broke out in the church and that poor liberal Priest got punched squarely in the nose by one of the members of the Parish.    Most interesting church service I have ever been to.

Theory's abound and the pagan faiths had their Gods born of virgins, seems that normal men and woman could not give birth to a God.   Had to be that way, outher wise just anyone could claim to be a God.

I find it interesting that in the Bible New Testament the disciples came to Jesus and told him there were others that made the same claims and created miracles in the same way Jesus did.   What were they, the disciples to do about them.  IIRC correctly Jesus told them to leave them alone as long as they were doing the work of God.

20 years is a long time in the life of a youngster--12-32 or so-- where was he, was he studying with the Essene, the faith of Joseph.?

Why is it when I ask questions in order to understand the Bible people jump all over me for asking logical question or even wanting to examine a 2000 year old book.?

I become confused with the history of Christianity, was it at the Diet of Worms that 600 years or so after the life of Jesus the trinity was placed into the Christian faith.?

There are many people on earth that can duplicate with hook or by crook the workings of Jesus, Lazarus's was risen from the dead for example.   Question here is if he in fact dead or in a coma.

The one thing that really unsettles me about Jesus was when he asked a disciples who was with him at the time, who had touche his cloak as he had felt his strength drain out of him.  How could that be unless he was  either using this as an excuse to rest or was he who he said he was---

No doubt about it Jesus became one of the most interesting man to walk the earth.  Fascinating that just 2 years of his life has caused such controversy, love and hate in the world. Wars, torture and mayham.  Love and devotion and civilization of others.

However he got here and the question of if he was God himself, or as he repeated, just the Son of God, and then telling his followers that they also were the children of God, will never be answered.

One could ask the same questions about Buddha, or any other intellectual that rules the lives of millions.

Now about the Muslims, they also swear that thousands of people watched as Mohamed aboard his white horse assended into heaven in a cloud.  No mention of what happend to the horse, did the poor thing fall back to earth as heaven was for people not animals.?  

I watched a documentary where a world famous contractor decided to try to replicate the building of the Grand Pyramid in 25 years on paper,  using modern technology.   He had the all the big time bull boozers, the cranes that could lift 50 tons, laser cutters to cave the stone and on paper 100,000 workers that would put in the hours that the workers did 8,000 years ago. Logistics, how to feed and cloth the workers, shelter them.  He even put in helicopters to fly the top stones into place.

With modern technology he figured out it would take 60 years to replicate that pyramid using the best of the best things we have today.

Question here is who built that darn thing in 25 years as we are told.?

We are told the Egyptians built all this and the Spinx's. bull shit, I believe these things were in place when the first people came out of the
jungles and settled on the Nile.

Lots to question in our past history, things that mankind cannot duplicate today with all our technology.  

I do believe in a god, and I also believe I would not recognise him if I bumped into his big toe.

I don't want to get into all the pyramids found all over the earth at this time---it boggles my mind where the information on how to build these things to cultures that were not yet into the iron age came about.    








Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2010, 07:12:42 PM »
Well, if one goes by the Bible and it's interpretations, mankind is roughly 5000 years old. However, there have been archaeological discoveries showing that humans have been here at least 150,000 years. That would place humans and dinosaurs together (maybe the "dragons" Mr. Mannn mentioned?) Behind every legend or myth, there is some truth. We also have the missing city of Atlantis and all of its inhabitants. Allegedly, they were VERY technologically advanced.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2010, 09:22:24 PM »
Perhaps a more interesting question arises from this:

Where exactly, did Cain and Abel's wives come from?  There is no discussion in Genesis of God creating additional humans.......

Jewish Kabbalists believe that Adam and Eve, although created by God, were not the ONLY humans (or humaniods) on earth at the time........Adam and Eve were the "chosen", but they were not the sole human inhabitants of the planet....... :fuelfire:

doc
One day, I gave birth to a son.  A few years later, I gave birth to a second son.  When the oldest was 16, I came home to find them in a terrible fight.  Luckily, I separated them before one died.  How many children do I have?

(The answer is 5.)  Just as in Genesis, the facts given do not detail everything.  If they did, the Bible would be the size of an encyclopedia set...or several encyclopedia sets.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2010, 09:26:29 PM »
Well, if one goes by the Bible and it's interpretations, mankind is roughly 5000 years old. However, there have been archaeological discoveries showing that humans have been here at least 150,000 years. That would place humans and dinosaurs together (maybe the "dragons" Mr. Mannn mentioned?) Behind every legend or myth, there is some truth. We also have the missing city of Atlantis and all of its inhabitants. Allegedly, they were VERY technologically advanced.
How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden?  Yes, I know the Bible counts the years of Adam's life, but what immortal man living in Paradise, having no knowledge of death, would count his years?  His life didn't have an end until he ate of the Tree.  Once there is an end, a man would start counting.  At most, a careful counting could give the years since Adam was tossed out of the Garden, but nothing else.

While Adam and Eve were in the Garden, there was no death anywhere.  What were the animals in the Garden doing?  What were the animals outside the Garden doing?  Talk about a population explosion!
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Offline Doc

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2010, 04:36:32 PM »
One day, I gave birth to a son.  A few years later, I gave birth to a second son. When the oldest was 16, I came home to find them in a terrible fight. Luckily, I separated them before one died. How many children do I have?

(The answer is 5.) Just as in Genesis, the facts given do not detail everything. If they did, the Bible would be the size of an encyclopedia set...or several encyclopedia sets.

Your explanation above is too cryptic for me........

However, errors of omission are none the less errors........not explanations. One would think that if God truly inspired the writing of the OT, and it is not a collection of legends and allegory, mixed with some historical facts, he would have taken more care to insure the infallibility of understanding..........particularly in the case of the origions of man.....

doc
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:38:50 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2010, 06:15:28 PM »
Your explanation above is too cryptic for me........

However, errors of omission are none the less errors........not explanations. One would think that if God truly inspired the writing of the OT, and it is not a collection of legends and allegory, mixed with some historical facts, he would have taken more care to insure the infallibility of understanding..........particularly in the case of the origions of man.....

doc

A very good "parable" would be: where is the bible does it explicitly say that abortion is wrong?? When does an embryo actually become life?? It doesn't. What I always heard was , "well, it's murder".  I struggled with that for YEARS!! Finally, I found my answer. It was in a book called, "The Lost Books of the Bible". It may be in the apocrypha. It explicitly states that we shouldn't destroy the seed of the womb, nor kill a child after birth.  That discovery totally changed my attitude towards abortion. It's almost as if some people didn't trust us mere mortals to comprehend some parts.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2010, 06:29:23 PM »
Your explanation above is too cryptic for me........

However, errors of omission are none the less errors........not explanations. One would think that if God truly inspired the writing of the OT, and it is not a collection of legends and allegory, mixed with some historical facts, he would have taken more care to insure the infallibility of understanding..........particularly in the case of the origions of man.....

doc
Perhaps He is more concerned about man's heart than mans' beginning...though, to be fair, He made sure to tell us how He did it...

The Bible speaks of some of Adam and Eve's children.  

Quote
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Note in this passage, the only son named is the 3rd one we know by name, no mention of Cain or Abel.  It mentions that he begat sons and daughters, but no mention of other names, numbers, anything.  However, even if Eve spaced her children very carefully, and was only fertile for half of Adam's lifetime, we're talking quite a few kids in that 465 year fertile span...  

In my example, I did the same things, mentioned only the salient facts about 2 of my kids.  
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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2010, 08:05:09 PM »
I am conflicted about this honestly. The universe is so immense, so much that we can never know about it. Would any life found on another planet change people's beliefs? Even the life of a nasty roach found on another planet?

I know what I believe as far as God goes. And I believe what I do wholeheartedly. That doesn't mean that I can't fathom life outside of earth. I surely can. The Bible has many gaps. Many things left unsaid.

Science and God can go hand in hand, but I also believe people (some people) need to open up their mind. Still, having said that, I don't know what to believe. Maybe I'll believe it when I see it. Same with "ghosts", but I've already had that experience. And I believe. And anyone who wants to tell me that makes me un-Christian has no idea, and NO ONE can tell you BUT God what is in your heart.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 08:07:12 PM by soleil »

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2010, 10:04:17 AM »
Mr. Mann is essentially correct when he asserts many people use suppositions of extra-terrestrial life as a means to discredit the Bible. That phenomenon does  exist as I have known people who advance that argument.

What I don't understand is the premise of their argument.

Does the absence of any mention of ET life disqualify the Bible as a historical text?

If anything the dramatic difference in nature between carnal being and angels is a trumpet blast declaring the God of the Bible is a creative being that delights in bestowing life in as many forms as possible. Just look at the difference in lifefors from what is found in a dark forest vs. the deep jungle vs. the inky depths of the oceans vs. the swarms in a droplet of water.

And yet, not a sparrow among them falls without His notice, or so I'm told.

As the Bible seems to conern itself with serving as a historical record of a particular people in a particular place at a particular time I don't the argument as following.

But suppose there is ET life and suppose it is even as sentient as humanity.

Did they fall like Adam and Eve or are they still unfallen? Perhaps humanity is the only bird in the universe to shit its own nest.

What if they ate of both trees in the garden, were filled with sin but imbued with eternal life? With no hope of redemption through death their sins would only magnify as the years turned to centuries and centuries turned to millenia on into the ages.

If they are fallen are they redeemed? Grace, being grace, need not be imparted to everyone who is fallen. Scarcity merely increases value of a commodity.

Did they recieve Grace by a different mechanism?

Did they recognize their Redeemer the first go-'round?

What if their world had already undergone final redemption and they were now sinless, strong and immortal? Wouldn't we be tempted to worship them as gods?

The musing only increase from there.


Rather than make Christians defensive the thought of ET life should inspire a myriad of theological discussions and maybe some decent literature/movies/whatevs rather than that pablum-like crap they've been peddling since the 60's in a ridiculous effort to keep up with the hippies.
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2010, 12:59:26 PM »
The musing only increase from there.


Rather than make Christians defensive the thought of ET life should inspire a myriad of theological discussions and maybe some decent literature/movies/whatever rather than that pablum-like crap they've been peddling since the 60's in a ridiculous effort to keep up with the hippies.

Just musing.....and admittedly avoiding the more specific points presented in your thoughtful post, I believe that much of the problems that exist in modern (at least American) Christianity today stems from deficiencies in the level of knowledge in the Christian clergy.  My experience is that most Christians try very hard to avoid "theological discussions".

American Christians (particularly Protestants) study their Bible, and follow the teachings of their pastor.....and as "leader of their flock" rightfully so.  However, over the years, I have had discussions with literally hundreds pastors, and found them woefully deficient in knowledge of "Theology".  Many have had a couple of years at some seminary somewhere (the minimum required for ordination), perhaps even qualifying for a four-year degree, however many are "Lay ministers", with very little formal training at all.  Universally, most are quite conversant in their particular doctrine, but also universally, most have nearly no knowledge of religious history, or a comparative understanding of religion in general.

I mentioned in another thread a while ago, that if I wish to study the Old Testament......a protestant minister would be the LAST person that I would seek out for a fact-based discussion.....I would speak to a Rabbi.......as I mentioned before, they wrote it, and have been studying it several milennia longer than Christians have...  I think that this lack of formal training on the part of the ministry leads many Christians into a certain myopia that tends to fail to place their beliefs in true context, both theologically and historically.

Perhaps the best analogy is the public school system.......if you start with compromised, untrained, and ideologically motivated teachers, you get a  result that is less than desirable.  Perhaps this phenomenon has made me more skeptical than I should be, but when I ask a pastor a theological question, particularly an interpretive one, and the answer is a quotation from Scripture, out of context, and the sentence is ended with "God said it......end of discussion".......I know that I'm wasting my time.........

doc
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Offline Thor

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Re: Faith and UFO's
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 01:47:18 PM »
There are passages in the Old Testament that state that "angels" had sex with humans. Who were these "angels"?? WHAT were these "angels"??

And.... what about that "incest"?? We've been taught that incest is wrong. Why?? Again, something else that's rife throughout the Old Testament.

Where did all of these other "humans" come from that became wives of Adam and Eve's sons??
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson