Author Topic: The liberal vultures are circling.  (Read 23952 times)

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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2010, 02:53:57 PM »
Wow, I do, and way too often.

Had I been on the jury, I wouldn't have charged McDonald's because someone spilled their hot coffee.  Everyone knows if you spill hot coffee on yourself you're likely going to get burned.  After the trial, I would have been inclined to walk over to the Plaintiff with a cup of hot coffee, and then start tilting the cup their way while saying "Here, let me remind you of why you need to be careful when you drink hot coffee."  But, I can be that way sometimes.

.

But why is it O.K. for McDonalds to brew coffee at 180 degrees when they could brew it at 130 degrees and have it be safe?  The company had a stated policy to brew the coffe at a temperature they knew was dangerous, and someone got third degree burns from it--required skin grafts, lots of pain and suffering, and all because McDonalds wanted to cover up how bad their coffee tastes.  And what if the person who handed the coffee out the window accidentally dropped it and Plaintiff didn't do anything wrong?  Is it fair for Plaintiff to just deal with 3rd degree burns because they ordered cofee and should have known it might burn them?

In this case the jury ruled that McDonalds took an unacceptable risk in deciding to brew their coffee that hot.  Now, fast food places don't do that.  They brew their coffee at a safer temperature because the McDonalds case taught them an important lesson in safety (one they would not have learned if it had not been for that big jury award).  That's what tort law is supposed to do ... make us all safer.  And it works.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2010, 03:03:57 PM »
I have no problem lawyers advertising either. And I'm not sure I know any lawyers so your perspective is helpful. I didn't realize getting a lawsuit to trial was so complicated.

Cindie

Smile.  Yeah, it's really hard to get to trial.

And I agree with you about the Federal Government as you described your concerns about it in another post.  It is clear that the Federal Government is no longer responsive to the will of the people.  I am not sure what to do about this, however. 

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2010, 03:17:45 PM »
The problem I have with PI attorneys is; The whole world must be painted as dangerous.  If an attorney for a company didn't point out that it might be dangerous to ride a bicycle at night THEN someone buys said bike and rides it at night and gets hurt .... well then THAT COMPANY SHOULD HAVE WARNED THE PUBLIC!!!!

See, it's the stupid shit that pisses off the masses ... all so attorneys on both sides can get paid.

Insurance companies and lawyers run our country right now and I think it's sad.

KC

You're right to say that tort attorneys do see the world in terms of safety and risk.  They're trained to do that.  It's how they make a living.  And the particular area of the law that you're describing (failure to warn) law, is one that I am not terribly familiar with.  I have never had a "failure to warn" case.  Those silly labels you see on a lot of products are defense attorneys' silly attempts to head off a "failure to warn" case.  Sometimes those labels work, too, and people injured by those products can't win in court because, even though they were injured by the product, they were "warned," and therefore the company that made the thing isn't responsible for the injury.

I fully agree with you, however, that insurance comapnies (and their lawyers) are running the country and that this is unacceptable (so long as you throw in the bankers too).

 :cheersmate:

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2010, 03:31:53 PM »
Thanks! glad you pointed out the part about the client admitting guilt and what basically is the Attorney's responsibility is if that happens. So in the cases of the Menendez Brothers and OJ Simpson, odds are they never admitted guilt to their Attorney's. A part of me thought that even if guilt was admitted the Attorney would still turn around and defend them.

I suspect your suspicion is valid.  There probably are some attorneys that will argue for their client's innocence, even if they know their client is guilty.  They shouldn't do that, but, if the money is right, I suspect they will.

But I can't speak from experience, here.  As I said, I don't handle criminal defense cases.

-Laelth
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Offline Karin

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2010, 03:34:42 PM »
Quote
Personally, I'd like to see more poor people elected to office, but for them, given our current system, that's virtually impossible.
I live in Northern New York, and our two legislative bodies are the Assembly and the Senate.  In my district, for Assembly, a "regular Joe" type of lady, a democrat, ran in 2008.  For a living, she did all kinds of stuff in the family business, such as waitressing, cleaning, and the like.  Her campaign theme was something like "I know hard work.  I will work so hard for you."   She was roundly riduculed.  Well, she won.  That sounds like a triumph-of-the-little guy made-for-TV movie, doesn't it?  Only thing is, I doubt she can forcefully represent us against the sharks in New York State politics.  Addie Jennie Russell vs. Sheldon Silver?  

Offline Ballygrl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2010, 03:39:44 PM »
I live in Northern New York, and our two legislative bodies are the Assembly and the Senate.  In my district, for Assembly, a "regular Joe" type of lady, a democrat, ran in 2008.  For a living, she did all kinds of stuff in the family business, such as waitressing, cleaning, and the like.  Her campaign theme was something like "I know hard work.  I will work so hard for you."   She was roundly riduculed.  Well, she won.  That sounds like a triumph-of-the-little guy made-for-TV movie, doesn't it?  Only thing is, I doubt she can forcefully represent us against the sharks in New York State politics.  Addie Jennie Russell vs. Sheldon Silver?

She'd be totally strong-armed by Sheldon Silver, there's a big divide between upstate and downstate.
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Offline Tucker

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2010, 03:43:28 PM »
LOL.  I don't recall saying that anyone should be out that $100K.  What I said, I think, if that the rich corp. is going to be out that money no matter what if the defendant is poor.  And if rich corp. loses, they'll have to pay the Plainitff's attorney fees too.  Now, why would rich corp. want a system like that?

-Laelth

That is correct. You didn't touch on it.

In your scenario, the client that lied in order to file a lawsuit, which resulted in a business being out 100K in legal expenses, should be able to force the Plaintiff as a Indentured servant after  losing the lawsuit until the fees have been satisfied. Cut down on frivolous lawsuits.

Hell. If you log onto DU, half the people there are screaming sue, sue for whatever or whomever anytime someone feels wronged.
Come to think of it, unions do create jobs. Companies have to hire two workers to do the work of one.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2010, 03:43:45 PM »
Laelth, I have no problem with Mickey-D's having to pay punitive damages, contrary to all the hostile press, they really did act like total a-holes in that case until they had their butts handed to them for it by the jury.

Yes, there certainly is a social utility to punitive damages, as we all know you can't put a corporation in jail, after all.  What I have a problem with is it being a windfall for the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney over and above all actual compensatory damages.  I'm saying that once the plaintiff's legitimate compensation is fully addressed (Or as fully as the court buys into anyway), any additional punitive level of damages probably ought to be a applied in a more socially useful way than enriching those who have already been paid in full for the harm they suffered. 
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2010, 04:08:01 PM »
That is correct. You didn't touch on it.

In your scenario, the client that lied in order to file a lawsuit, which resulted in a business being out 100K in legal expenses, should be able to force the Plaintiff as a Indentured servant after  losing the lawsuit until the fees have been satisfied. Cut down on frivolous lawsuits.

Hell. If you log onto DU, half the people there are screaming sue, sue for whatever or whomever anytime someone feels wronged.

Smile.  I understand your frustration, but we abolished indentured servitude a while ago.

And I will not be held responsible for what gets posted on DU for reasons that should be apparent.  ;)

-Laelth
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Offline Tucker

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2010, 04:15:32 PM »
Smile.  I understand your frustration, but we abolished indentured servitude a while ago.

And I will not be held responsible for what gets posted on DU for reasons that should be apparent.  ;)

-Laelth

We abolished slavery as well. Now explain to me all of the social entitlement programs that keep a large segment of the populace  reliant on the Government for their existence.

(I know. I drifted)
Come to think of it, unions do create jobs. Companies have to hire two workers to do the work of one.

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2010, 04:27:30 PM »
Laelth, I have no problem with Mickey-D's having to pay punitive damages, contrary to all the hostile press, they really did act like total a-holes in that case until they had their butts handed to them for it by the jury.

Yes, there certainly is a social utility to punitive damages, as we all know you can't put a corporation in jail, after all.  What I have a problem with is it being a windfall for the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney over and above all actual compensatory damages.  I'm saying that once the plaintiff's legitimate compensation is fully addressed (Or as fully as the court buys into anyway), any additional punitive level of damages probably ought to be a applied in a more socially useful way than enriching those who have already been paid in full for the harm they suffered.  

You make a valid point, and several state legislatures have toyed with the idea of taking away windfall awards from Plaintiffs and their attorneys.  In Georgia, we have such a law for products liability cases.  Over a certain amount, all the windfall goes diectly into the state coffers (or, that's what the law says should happen, in any event).

But let me whine a bit.  ;)

Can't I please, please, get just a little windfall?  I mean, if I ever get a case that gives me a big jury award, I will have been been working for my client for years, for no money at all, risking my life, my marriage, and my economic future just on the hope that I might finally get paid well.  And if I do get that big award, it'll be appealed, and then I have to win at the appellate level too.  And that will take another couple of years.  By that time I will be sick of my client, and I will never want to see that person again, but I will have to keep working, and working, and working, for no pay, until it finally (maybe) pays off.  When the insurance comapny finally gives up, can't I please, please get some windfall?  I mean, I didn't bust my tail in law school and accumulate massive student loan debt just to be broke and constantly strapped for cash.  As a Plaintiff's attorney about the only chance I will ever have to retire comfortably is to win a big case and get that windfall.  Can't I have that?  Please?

LOL.  End whining.

Honestly, the main reason to have the big windfall go to Plaintiff and Plaintiff's attorney is to insure that some attorneys (insane ones like me) will still be willing to actually fight for the rights of the injured under circumstances where they work for years without getting paid.  Without the possibility that I might, one day, win a big one, it makes no sense to do what I do, and unless people like me are willing to do it, all injured people will lose their right to sue (because no attorneys will be willing to represent the injured).

Hope that makes sense, and thanks for the response.

-Laelth
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2010, 04:34:33 PM »
(Channeling 'Idiocracy' here...)

Wow, you like money TOO!?!

 :rotf:
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline Hawkgirl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2010, 05:03:45 PM »
If a lawyer and an IRS agent were both drowning, and you could only save one of them, would you go to lunch or read the paper?

Offline USA4ME

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2010, 05:07:53 PM »
But why is it O.K. for McDonalds to brew coffee at 180 degrees when they could brew it at 130 degrees and have it be safe?  The company had a stated policy to brew the coffe at a temperature they knew was dangerous, and someone got third degree burns from it--required skin grafts, lots of pain and suffering, and all because McDonalds wanted to cover up how bad their coffee tastes.  And what if the person who handed the coffee out the window accidentally dropped it and Plaintiff didn't do anything wrong?  Is it fair for Plaintiff to just deal with 3rd degree burns because they ordered cofee and should have known it might burn them?

In this case the jury ruled that McDonalds took an unacceptable risk in deciding to brew their coffee that hot.  Now, fast food places don't do that.  They brew their coffee at a safer temperature because the McDonalds case taught them an important lesson in safety (one they would not have learned if it had not been for that big jury award).  That's what tort law is supposed to do ... make us all safer.  And it works.

-Laelth

The temperature any business brews it's coffee is up to them, the customer is free to ask what the temp is and not buy it if they don't want it.  How the coffee tastes is a matter of opinion, and the customer spilling the coffee on themselves is not the same as an employee spilling it on them.

Customers own fault, not McDonald's.  It's why we need tort reform.......... badly.

.
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Offline Hawkgirl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2010, 05:18:18 PM »
The temperature any business brews it's coffee is up to them, the customer is free to ask what the temp is and not buy it if they don't want it.  How the coffee tastes is a matter of opinion, and the customer spilling the coffee on themselves is not the same as an employee spilling it on them.

Customers own fault, not McDonald's.  It's why we need tort reform.......... badly.

.
Agreed.  It's a frivilous lawsuit....now we have a woman suing Google for giving her wrong directions.  Tort reform is needed badly.

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2010, 05:26:50 PM »
The temperature any business brews it's coffee is up to them, the customer is free to ask what the temp is and not buy it if they don't want it.  How the coffee tastes is a matter of opinion, and the customer spilling the coffee on themselves is not the same as an employee spilling it on them.

Customers own fault, not McDonald's.  It's why we need tort reform.......... badly.

.

Well, that's fine so long as you're willing to pick up the tab for the injury instead of the insurance company or the big corp.  Tort law works on this, simple principle:  Someone will pay for every injury.

If a tort suit is successful, the defendant who was negligent or reckless pays for the injury (usually his or her insurance company does).

If a tort suit is unsuccessful, the innocent plaintiff, who did nothing wrong, theoretically pays for the injury, but if the plaintiff is poor (most of us are too poor to bear the cost of a serious injury), then "We the People" of the United States pay the cost of the injury (through various social services). If plaintiff loses the suit, he or she normally becomes a massive burden on the state.

So, for every injury, we have a choice--either the state pays or the insurance industry pays. People like me (tort attorneys) do our best to make sure that liable defendants pay for the injuries they cause. They usually do so through their own insurance, but I can go after their corporate or personal assets if they don't have adequate insurance. Defense attorneys try to make sure that their clients (the insurance companies) don't pay for the injuries their insureds caused. If the defense attorney wins, that means plaintiff bears the cost of the injury (and "We the People" usually pick up the tab).

Here's how it looks from my perspective:

Republicans favor tort reform as a means of protecting insurance companies. That's it. They want, as always, to privatize profits and socialize risks. They want the government to "bail out their rich clients" when they make mistakes. As usual. Tort reform (like caps on damages and various rules that make it harder for plaintiffs to win) merely shifts the burden for paying for injuries from the insurance companies to the state.  And now the Democrats are singing the same tune.

But it's our choice.  Someone will pay--either us, or the party that actually created an unreasonable risk.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2010, 05:27:49 PM »
(Channeling 'Idiocracy' here...)

Wow, you like money TOO!?!

 :rotf:

LOL.  Yes, me too.

-Laelth
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Offline thundley4

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2010, 05:31:09 PM »
LOL.  Yes, me too.

-Laelth

If you ever win one of those big "payday lawsuits", then won't you become the "wealthy" enemy  of most of the DU'ers?

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2010, 05:47:26 PM »
If you ever win one of those big "payday lawsuits", then won't you become the "wealthy" enemy  of most of the DU'ers?

LOL.  That won't hurt my feelings too much.   :-)

-Laelth
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Offline Thor

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2010, 05:59:25 PM »
First of all, I'm all for PI attorneys in most cases, especially when battling the insurance companies. My experience was I got rear-ended by an 18 year old kid. Herniated two disks in my neck, but I didn't know that at the time. The kid's insurance paid some money for damages, but not nearly enough to cover the surgery, the loss of income, the permanent damage, etc. The attorney I initially hired took the case on contingency. He got me a settlement fairly quickly. However, because the kid's insurance was bare minimums, he really didn't pursue it much further. Ultimately, he referred me to another PI attorney in the Twin Cities. Since I had "Under-insured motorist" insurance on my insurance, the "new" attorney called and asked why didn't they want to pay?? They fought us and it came down to the day that I had to give my statement to the opposing side and answer questions posed to me by them. Ultimately, they asked one question to which they obviously didn't know the answer to and were totally unprepared for the answer. Did I have any witnesses to the accident? I answered, "yes" and named the witness. They folded up their notebooks and concluded the session. I saw the sinking look on their faces. At that moment, I knew that we had them!! (The police statement was vague, ambiguous and full of erroneous reporting.)

Now, as far as things that require the usage of a little common sense, like the McDonald's fiasco, I don't agree with those. First of all, to brew a decent cup of coffee requires a temp of 190°F MINIMUM. One doesn't necessarily want to boil the coffee, but it needs to be hot. Hell, even their coffee cups were marked "HOT" for many years. Like, duh, coffee IS HOT!! That's something we should have learned by the time we were three years old. As a result of the McDonald's lawsuit, we now have substandard coffee makers that won't brew a decent cup of coffee. In short, the temperature isn't high enough to do the job.

The facts of life are that if one is stupid, careless or simply abuses things, Murphy's law will strike. Look at playgrounds. How the hell did any of us over 40 survive our childhood?? What about seat belts?? I never had to wear a seat belt until long after I was an adult. Sometimes I did, sometimes, I didn't. Even with a seatbelt in use, I still suffered a whiplash injury. Did I sue Ford because the seats weren't designed for my height and caused my neck to hit the headrest at the wrong height?? No. By today's thinking, most of us would have been seriously injured or killed by the things we grew up with and even enjoyed. The bigger fact is that we can't protect everybody from every thing. People need to "man up" and take some responsibility for their lives.
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Offline Thor

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2010, 06:00:36 PM »
BTW, Laelth, welcome. I hope to see you around more often.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2010, 06:13:24 PM »
I live in Northern New York, and our two legislative bodies are the Assembly and the Senate.  In my district, for Assembly, a "regular Joe" type of lady, a democrat, ran in 2008.  For a living, she did all kinds of stuff in the family business, such as waitressing, cleaning, and the like.  Her campaign theme was something like "I know hard work.  I will work so hard for you."   She was roundly riduculed.  Well, she won.  That sounds like a triumph-of-the-little guy made-for-TV movie, doesn't it?  Only thing is, I doubt she can forcefully represent us against the sharks in New York State politics.  Addie Jennie Russell vs. Sheldon Silver?  

That's an uplifting story, and I hope she survives it.  But, as you know, for both major parties the rule in the legislature is "go along to get along."  If she won't toe the party line, the party will make life very hard on her.  It's hard for a truly ethical person to survive for long in politics.  Some do, but it's rare.  I wish her well.

-Laelth
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2010, 06:17:24 PM »
Well, that's fine so long as you're willing to pick up the tab for the injury instead of the insurance company or the big corp.  Tort law works on this, simple principle:  Someone will pay for every injury...

-Laelth
We the People are paying regardless.

We pay for their social services or pass-through costs when the business has its premiums go up because of incessant lawsuits. We pay the taxman or the cashier but we pay.

There has got to be a balance somewhere.
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2010, 06:25:24 PM »
LOL.  That won't hurt my feelings too much.   :-)

-Laelth

OK, I like Laelth LOL. It's so nice to speak with a sane DU'er.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2010, 06:29:03 PM »
Laelth, welcome.  I hope that you don't go full-moonbat on us anytime soon--Hell, at all.  If you do, we'll probably smack each other around a bit lining up to have a shot at ya.

I really haven't followed this thread--I had to move file folders at work today (a line of them sxity-five feet long, one at a time, three times) and I didn't get a chance to read it.  I'll read it, but I'm not in any way connected with the legal profession . . . so I'll be at a disadvantage.  (Not saying that I don't have some strong opinions, but I'll hold them.)
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