Author Topic: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic  (Read 4544 times)

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Offline franksolich

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gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« on: June 18, 2008, 09:02:35 PM »
CHARLESTON, W.Va. - When gas station manager Roger Randolph realized it was costing him money each time someone filled up with $4-a-gallon gas, he hung a sign on his pumps: "No more credit cards."

He may be the first in West Virginia to ban plastic, but gas station operators nationwide are reporting similar woes as higher prices translate into higher credit card fees the managers must pay, squeezing profits at the pump.

"The more they buy, the more we lose," said Randolph, who manages Mr. Ed's Chevron in St. Albans. "Gas prices go up, and our profits go down."

His complaints target the so-called interchange fee — a percentage of the sale price paid to credit card companies on every transaction. The percentage is fixed — usually at just under 2 percent — but the dollar amount of the fee rises with the price of the goods or services.

As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees.

"At these prices, people aren't making any money," said Jeff Lenard, spokesman for the Alexandria, Va.-based National Association of Convenience Stores. "It's brutal."

Lenard's group reports convenience stores paid roughly $7.6 billion in credit card fees last year, while making $3.4 billion in profits.

The way interchange fees are structured has long annoyed retailers, prompting calls for relief.

Legislation pending in the U.S. House and Senate would allow merchants to bargain collectively with major credit and debit card companies.

The National Retail Federation says gas prices point to the unfairness of the system: Gas stations are paying more in interchange fees because the price of gas has gone up, while the cost of processing credit or debit cards remains the same.

"We have always contended that it doesn't cost Visa and MasterCard any more to process a $1,000 transaction than it does a $100 transaction," said J. Craig Shearman, vice president of government affairs at the retail federation.

The credit card companies say fees are just part of the cost of doing business.

MasterCard has capped interchange fees for gas purchases of $50 or more, said company spokeswoman Sharon Gamsin.

Accepting MasterCard also gives gas stations "increased sales, greater security and convenience, lower labor costs, and speed for their customers at the pump," Gamsin said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Visa argues that the fees are offset "by the tangible benefits to stations and their customers, such as the ability to pay at the pump," the company said in a statement to the AP.

Absent congressional action, gas stations are seeking other relief, including discounts to customers who pay in cash.

Shipley Energy, which owns 23 Tom's Convenience stores in Pennsylvania, has partnered with a new credit card company, Revolution, which charges smaller interchange fees.

Bob Astor, wholesale fuels business manager for Shipley, said those savings get passed on to customers as cheaper prices at the pump. Customers who pay with the card get an automatic 10 cent discount.

Gas stations in South Carolina, Georgia, Maryland, New Jersey and Arizona are among those offering cash customers a discount, with savings from four cents to 10 cents per gallon.

The Connecticut General Assembly recently passed legislation to make it easier for stations to offer discounts for cash purchases, bidding to cut consumer prices by 10 to 12 cents on average.

Discounts for cash customers may not, however, be the stations' salvation.

The National Association of Convenience Stores reports about two thirds of transactions at gas stations were with credit or debit cards in 2007, a figure expected to rise this year.

"The problem with cash discounts is, if people don't have the cash or don't want to spend the cash, you've inconvenienced them," Lenard said.

The experiment at Mr. Ed's Chevron, though, has paid off so far.

The station has been in business for 44 years and the ban on plastic hasn't scared many people off, Randolph said.

"We've got generations of customers who come here," he said. "Most of them have accepted it."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_prices_credit_cards

In the bold area above, it appears the convenience store business is--involuntarily--much like the primitives and their monthly expenses.
apres moi, le deluge

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 09:23:38 PM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.

Offline Jim

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 11:31:01 AM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.




I think this may help fill in the blanks...

unless things are different now, our old store paid a percentage of the sale for the privilidge/safeguard of using the cards.   so while a larger sale would generate a larger fee, it was still just a percentage.

the differnce for gas stations is that their markup is not a percentage.  they typically charge x cents over cost and play with that to increase or decrease competition.  so that 3% on a 10 gallon sale went from 30 cents at $1 gas to $1.20 on $4 gas.  But the operator's margins didn't change.

They are the only ones in the supply chain in that boat.   

Kind of explains why Exxon is ditching it's retail operations.
My fellow Americans, there is nothing audacious about hope. Hope is what makes people buy lottery tickets instead of paying the bills. Hope is for the old gals feeding the slots in Atlantic City. It destroys the inner-city kid who quits school because he hopes he'll be a world-famous recording artist.

What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Barack Obama?

One is a well turned-out, good-looking, and let's be honest, pretty sexy piece of eye-candy.

The other kills her own food.

Offline RightCoast

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 04:11:42 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 04:24:31 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!

How can they discount 20 cents per gallon when the mark up is typically 10-12 cents per gallon, which is a constant regardless of the wholesale price.  It doesn't make sense.

Offline Wineslob

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 04:31:16 PM »
Someone ain't telling the truth.
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Offline RobJohnson

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 04:38:47 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!

10 to 15 years ago, most stations had different prices for cash or credit....


Offline RobJohnson

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 04:41:38 PM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.

It's that funny math!

My grocery store (Smith's) gives me a 15 cent discount if I buy $90 in food....buy less, the discount is less...works out pretty well...let a neighbor use my card that has a diesel with large tanks, as the discount is good up to 100 gallons...and the gas is already the lowest price in town, before the discount!


Offline formerlurker

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 05:03:23 PM »
I pay $160/month for my son's private gymnastic lessons.   They ask me to use my debit card instead of my credit card to pay it, as the higher the sale $ the more % the credit card company charges.   I have no problem doing that as it is all the same to me anyway. 

So since the per sale $ at gas stations is much higher now, which means credit cards are charging a higher % of each sale, which means gas stations are losing money.   When gas sales were under $50 the % charged by credit card companies were the same as debit cards so no big deal.   When it goes over $50 or more the credit cards % of the sale no longer makes it profitable for the vendor, especially when they cannot raise the price of the product and remain competitive.   

I can see cash only transactions, which will screw the consumer on a higher level -- especially commercial consumers. 



Offline rich_t

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 06:49:38 PM »
The really ironcic part IMO, is that it is all based on fiat money to begin with.

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Offline RightCoast

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 07:15:44 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!

How can they discount 20 cents per gallon when the mark up is typically 10-12 cents per gallon, which is a constant regardless of the wholesale price.  It doesn't make sense.

The discount is the money that they are NOT paying to the credit card companies.  The station still makes its profit.
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 07:38:25 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!

How can they discount 20 cents per gallon when the mark up is typically 10-12 cents per gallon, which is a constant regardless of the wholesale price.  It doesn't make sense.

The discount is the money that they are NOT paying to the credit card companies.  The station still makes its profit.

Given that structure it means the credit card charge is already considered in the price, so they are not losing money on card purchases. 

Offline formerlurker

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 07:41:09 PM »
A local station here discounts $0.20/ gallon for cash sales and more are expected soon.  Of course we're at over $4.29/ gallon state average and the Dems running CT want to increase the gas tax again!

How can they discount 20 cents per gallon when the mark up is typically 10-12 cents per gallon, which is a constant regardless of the wholesale price.  It doesn't make sense.

The discount is the money that they are NOT paying to the credit card companies.  The station still makes its profit.

Given that structure it means the credit card charge is already considered in the price, so they are not losing money on card purchases. 

It used to be that way, but now since the sales price went up per purchase it bumped up the credit card % fee to a place where the gas station is not making a profit.  The gas station can't up the price anymore and remain competitive, so they are removing the plastic option.   

Offline Jim

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 09:25:00 AM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.



Something I forgot to mention, debit card fees are NOT percentage based and I believe are like a quarter per transaction.  If the gas stations are lumping credit and debit together then thats just not right.



I think this may help fill in the blanks...

unless things are different now, our old store paid a percentage of the sale for the privilidge/safeguard of using the cards.   so while a larger sale would generate a larger fee, it was still just a percentage.

the differnce for gas stations is that their markup is not a percentage.  they typically charge x cents over cost and play with that to increase or decrease competition.  so that 3% on a 10 gallon sale went from 30 cents at $1 gas to $1.20 on $4 gas.  But the operator's margins didn't change.

They are the only ones in the supply chain in that boat.   

Kind of explains why Exxon is ditching it's retail operations.
My fellow Americans, there is nothing audacious about hope. Hope is what makes people buy lottery tickets instead of paying the bills. Hope is for the old gals feeding the slots in Atlantic City. It destroys the inner-city kid who quits school because he hopes he'll be a world-famous recording artist.

What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Barack Obama?

One is a well turned-out, good-looking, and let's be honest, pretty sexy piece of eye-candy.

The other kills her own food.

Offline Lauri

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 08:11:17 PM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.

i may be wrong on this, but here's how i understand it.

i own a shop. it costs me money to Visa/Mastercard every time i swipe one of their cards thru my machine. they take a percentage of the cost right off my books.

the customer doesnt pay that, i do. so i take my prices a bit higher to pay a bit higher fees to V/M and the cycle just keeps going up as prices go up.

maybe im paying 10% of every purchase to V/M and i'm not making much profit off the gas.. and people arent buying slurpees right now, so my grocery bill is not being met.

i dont really know what the percentages are, but if it were 10%, i'm losing a lot of money every day in fees... it lets me keep 10% more on every tank of gas im selling ... that's significant right there.

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 08:27:30 PM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.

i may be wrong on this, but here's how i understand it.

i own a shop. it costs me money to Visa/Mastercard every time i swipe one of their cards thru my machine. they take a percentage of the cost right off my books.

the customer doesnt pay that, i do. so i take my prices a bit higher to pay a bit higher fees to V/M and the cycle just keeps going up as prices go up.

maybe im paying 10% of every purchase to V/M and i'm not making much profit off the gas.. and people arent buying slurpees right now, so my grocery bill is not being met.

i dont really know what the percentages are, but if it were 10%, i'm losing a lot of money every day in fees... it lets me keep 10% more on every tank of gas im selling ... that's significant right there.

I've never heard of a merchant's discount being higher than 3%.  If your's is higher than 3%, call the credit police and report a rape.


Offline Jim

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 08:34:37 PM »
I pay $160/month for my son's private gymnastic lessons.   They ask me to use my debit card instead of my credit card to pay it, as the higher the sale $ the more % the credit card company charges.   I have no problem doing that as it is all the same to me anyway. 

So since the per sale $ at gas stations is much higher now, which means credit cards are charging a higher % of each sale, which means gas stations are losing money.   When gas sales were under $50 the % charged by credit card companies were the same as debit cards so no big deal.   When it goes over $50 or more the credit cards % of the sale no longer makes it profitable for the vendor, especially when they cannot raise the price of the product and remain competitive.   

I can see cash only transactions, which will screw the consumer on a higher level -- especially commercial consumers. 







same percentage goes to the credit card company, usually 3-4 except for AmEx which is more.  the amount is more on a higher sale but the percentage is the same.

debit sales are a flat fee.
My fellow Americans, there is nothing audacious about hope. Hope is what makes people buy lottery tickets instead of paying the bills. Hope is for the old gals feeding the slots in Atlantic City. It destroys the inner-city kid who quits school because he hopes he'll be a world-famous recording artist.

What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Barack Obama?

One is a well turned-out, good-looking, and let's be honest, pretty sexy piece of eye-candy.

The other kills her own food.

Offline rich_t

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Re: gasoline stations stopping taking plastic
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 08:42:18 PM »
Quote
As gas tops $4 a gallon, that pushes fees toward 10 cents a gallon. Now stations, which typically mark up gasoline by 11 to 12 cents a gallon, are seeing profits shrink or even reverse.

In a good month, Randolph's small operation would yield a $60 profit on gasoline sales. But that's been buried as soaring prices forced the station to pay about $500 a month in interchange fees
.

Something here doesn't add up.  I'm too tired to work it out at the moment, but my radar went off just the same.

i may be wrong on this, but here's how i understand it.

i own a shop. it costs me money to Visa/Mastercard every time i swipe one of their cards thru my machine. they take a percentage of the cost right off my books.

the customer doesnt pay that, i do. so i take my prices a bit higher to pay a bit higher fees to V/M and the cycle just keeps going up as prices go up.

maybe im paying 10% of every purchase to V/M and i'm not making much profit off the gas.. and people arent buying slurpees right now, so my grocery bill is not being met.

i dont really know what the percentages are, but if it were 10%, i'm losing a lot of money every day in fees... it lets me keep 10% more on every tank of gas im selling ... that's significant right there.

I found this link to be informative:

http://www.wilsonweb.com/articles/merch-cc.htm
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944