Author Topic: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken  (Read 5427 times)

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Offline Erasmus

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CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« on: September 22, 2011, 04:12:54 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/22/science-light-idUSL5E7KM4CW20110922


This could be interesting.  Results of three years of measurements will have to be verified and peer-reviewed, so it's not final by any means.

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 04:18:06 PM »
Roll over Einstein.

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Offline thundley4

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 04:34:38 PM »
60 nonoseconds and it wasn't a side by side comparison?  I wonder if man-made instruments are even capable of being able to differentiate that small of a difference.  Then again, how sure are we of the speed of light itself?

Wasn't there something earlier this year about decay rates varying for radioactive materials?  Could that effect what they use to measure the time?

Offline Erasmus

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 04:52:36 PM »
60 nonoseconds and it wasn't a side by side comparison?  I wonder if man-made instruments are even capable of being able to differentiate that small of a difference.  Then again, how sure are we of the speed of light itself?

Wasn't there something earlier this year about decay rates varying for radioactive materials?  Could that effect what they use to measure the time?

From the articles I read, it sounds like they calculated the distance between emitter and detector with radio waves, as the line of sight is through rock and such.

I'm no physicist, but it may not mean that Einstein had the idea of a speed limit wrong, just what the measuring rod was.  Not sure what the implications to the "standard model" of physics would be if this turns out to be a repeatable event.

Not to be outdone, though, Bill Gates announced that next month they will be unveiling Light 2.0, which will travel at twice the speed of Einstein's light.

Offline marv

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2011, 05:08:33 PM »
I've been saying for years that Einstein made several mistakes. The speed of light as being impenetrable being one.
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Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 05:26:25 PM »
From an article I read it's going to be presented to other scientists tomorrow. If verified, it will release science from a long-held belief and it is really the limitation of what we allow ourselves to think that is the biggest barrier.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 09:33:26 PM »
It's broken? I didn't do it.

It must have been Bush.  :sarcasm:
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Offline Splashdown

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »

Not to be outdone, though, Bill Gates announced that next month they will be unveiling Light 2.0, which will travel at twice the speed of Einstein's light.

Yeah, but it'll be all buggy until the patch, Light 2.1.1, comes out. Better to go with Apple's iLight--fewer security risks.
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Offline vesta111

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 02:26:06 PM »
Yeah, but it'll be all buggy until the patch, Light 2.1.1, comes out. Better to go with Apple's iLight--fewer security risks.

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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »
1970's    we knew when an atom was spit a piece of it was unaccountable.  Neutrino"s a piece of matter gone somewhere. [20]

Well, My daddy spit enough atoms in tobacco juice it's a damn wonder there's anything left in this the third orbital ring of the sun.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 12:06:01 PM »
Well, My daddy spit enough atoms in tobacco juice it's a damn wonder there's anything left in this the third orbital ring of the sun.

Or around Uranus.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2011, 04:20:21 PM »
Haven't they been postulating for decades that tachyons were FTL?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2011, 04:40:16 PM »
Haven't they been postulating for decades that tachyons were FTL?

I'm pretty sure that several science fiction writers have used that premise.  SF sometimes leads reality.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2011, 05:18:15 PM »
Just as intriguing, what's the speed of gravity? 

Since we cannot generate or eradicate it at any point, how could we measure it?  Does it even have a speed, or is it immanent (Which would raise a whole series of space-time issues about the nature of matter and conversion of any of it to energy)?
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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 06:18:35 PM »
Just as intriguing, what's the speed of gravity? 

Since we cannot generate or eradicate it at any point, how could we measure it?  Does it even have a speed, or is it immanent (Which would raise a whole series of space-time issues about the nature of matter and conversion of any of it to energy)?

It's a curvature of space.
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Offline zeitgeist

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 06:49:23 PM »
It's a curvature of space.

Ah, but what lies beyond the curve? And why does it curve? 
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Offline thundley4

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2011, 07:33:50 PM »
It's a curvature of space.

Or is it time related?

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2011, 09:01:14 AM »
It's a curvature of space.

That's like saying 'It's a thing,' you goofy rabbit.  For all we know, space-time might be an incidental side effect of immanent gravity.  And calling it a curvature of space tells us nothing about the speed of propagation of gravitational field effect.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2011, 02:28:13 PM »
That's like saying 'It's a thing,' you goofy rabbit.  For all we know, space-time might be an incidental side effect of immanent gravity.  And calling it a curvature of space tells us nothing about the speed of propagation of gravitational field effect.

Well, the more mass an object has the more it curves the space around it. The more space is curved the greater the gravitational attraction. Therefore gravity wouldn't be a force that has a speed as one might assign speed to a photon moving through a vacuum. You might as well ask, "what is the speed of a race track?" The race track doesn't provide the speed of those racing upon it but it may influence their speed the way a decathelete would see his speed change if he were suddenly set to a cross-country course.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2011, 03:33:55 PM »
Well, the more mass an object has the more it curves the space around it. The more space is curved the greater the gravitational attraction. Therefore gravity wouldn't be a force that has a speed as one might assign speed to a photon moving through a vacuum. You might as well ask, "what is the speed of a race track?" The race track doesn't provide the speed of those racing upon it but it may influence their speed the way a decathelete would see his speed change if he were suddenly set to a cross-country course.


Ahem, red/blue-shift.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2011, 03:47:51 PM »
Ahem, red/blue-shift.

If you're referring to the Doppler effect, thats a phenomenon of light and its frequency observed relative to the angle and speed of the observer. I'm not sure how that would play into determining if gravity had a speed and if so what it might be.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2011, 03:51:58 PM »
Well, the more mass an object has the more it curves the space around it. The more space is curved the greater the gravitational attraction. Therefore gravity wouldn't be a force that has a speed as one might assign speed to a photon moving through a vacuum. You might as well ask, "what is the speed of a race track?" The race track doesn't provide the speed of those racing upon it but it may influence their speed the way a decathelete would see his speed change if he were suddenly set to a cross-country course.

Well now, no.  You are talking about a second-order or even lower effect of gravity, not the properties of the thing itself.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2011, 09:18:36 AM »
Gravity has an instantaneous speed when it measures even a 1/4 pound gain in my weight!  :-)
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Offline Erasmus

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2011, 10:29:51 AM »
Well, the speed of the propogation of gravity waves in GR was equal to the speed of light in a vacuum.  That may be off the table now.

What bothers me about Einstein is not that he made calculation errors or had something grossly incorrect.  It's that he, and pretty much everyone since him, have assumed that Minkowski space actually represents reality, instead of a very clever mathematical shortcut equivalent.  It relates to A-theory vs B-theory of time and whatnot.  Einstein basically eliminated the necessity of Lorentz's aether, but then still insisted that something is being "curved" by objects with mass.  A bit confusing.

Offline thundley4

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Re: CERN scientists say speed of light possibly broken
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2011, 11:00:26 AM »
What if gravity is a true "God Particle" force?