Taverner wants his drugs.

[Carl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2442573

Taverner  (1000+ posts)          Wed Dec-07-11 03:56 PM
 Original message
Thought Experiment: What if ALL drugs were legalized?
      

That is everything from Marijuana to Heroin and everything in between.

You can buy Vicodin, Meth, Heroin, PCP, LSD and what have you OTC, manufactured by pharmaceutical companies. That means Abbot Labs makes meth pills just like they used to, and Bayer makes Heroin, just like they used to.

picture of an old bottle.

"But what about the children???" you ask. To get these medicines, just like Sudafed, you need to be 18. Of course determined kids will get them, but determined kids are getting these anyway.

Addicts of these drugs will not suffer health risks from impure versions of their drugs.

Overdoses will be rare, since every user will know their dose, and not have to guess.

And drug violence vanishes. The black market is gone, and the Zetas and what not go out of business. Seriously, why would a user want Black Tar Heroin when they can get the real stuff OTC.

Let me tell you about a new phenomenon going on in Russia. It's a very impure version of Morphine made from Codeine pills called "Krokodil." It is called this because the users who take it end up with crocodile like skin - although that's the least of their problems. You see, Krokodil has Hydrochloric Acid in it, which literally causes user's skin to melt off. If you want some nightmares, Google 'Krokodil' images. If you have a weak stomach, don't. I have a strong stomach and those pics gave ME nightmares.

If Heroin or Morphine was OTC, there would be no Krokodil. There would be no bathtub chemists making meth.

Remember prohibition? During that time there was something called "Bathtub Gin" where the distiller would make homemade whiskey. Only they didn't know what they were doing, and ended up producing wood alcohol, which is a poison. Many died because of this, and those that survived often went blind.

My question is this: What GOOD does drug prohibition do? Really - does it get addicts into treatment? Does it remove them from access to drugs (here's a hint: no - drugs are just as easy to get in prison as they are in any high school.)

Late bid for more votes.

FiveGoodMen  (1000+ posts)          Wed Dec-07-11 04:00 PM
 Response to Original message
1. I'm sure that's the way we should go.
   It would save money (and potentially raise tax revenue).

It would increase freedom (and decrease the prison population).

Sure,when junkies can`t work but still need money to buy dope the world is a better place.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)          Wed Dec-07-11 05:06 PM
 Response to Original message
16. What about the children? The pipeline is WIDE OPEN now
   Restricting sales like alcohol and tobacco will close that pipeline down for more kids.

There would be fewer ODs with guaranteed dosages. There would be fewer infections and complications from drugs cut with trash.

Junkies of all descriptions would have a chance of staying healthier until they're ready to get off the addiction merry go round. Without the anxiety surrounding getting an adequate supply of their drug of choice, they would likely get off it sooner, see the British experiment with their own hard core addicts. They also saw an 80% drop in street crime.

Best of all, the drug gangs could be obliterated, their source of income destroyed by legal drugs undercutting the black market.

But what about terrible drugs like meth, you say? Back in the 60s, meth heads were the best advertisement I knew for staying away from the stuff. With better stuff to choose from, fewer will gravitate to the cheap high afforded by meth.

Police departments would no longer have a need to stay militarized. The constant assault on our civil rights could be reversed, starting with ridding ourselves of no knock warrants, forfeiture, and everything else that has gutted the fourth amendment.

I doubt it's a panacea. There will most likely be an uptick in addiction as people experiment and fall in love with a drug. However, there is little keeping them from experimenting today, so the uptick will likely be a small one.

The government might almost find itself solvent once that black hole represented by a paramilitary DEA active around the globe is closed up and gangs from Afghanistan to South America go out of business. Collecting modest taxes on dope would also help.

What we're doing now does not work in any sense of the word, all it does is ruin lives, enrich thugs, and eat money. We might as well try declaring defeat--the drugs won--and ending the war.

How about the war on poverty too then?

TheKentuckian  (1000+ posts)          Wed Dec-07-11 05:17 PM
 Response to Original message
19. Sanity would break out to a small but important way.

"Sanity" is a word that will never be associated with the DUmp.

Then a turd gets dumped in the punchbowl.

Nuclear Unicorn  (1000+ posts)        Wed Dec-07-11 05:25 PM
 Response to Original message
21. Who supports addicts no longer capable of providing for themselves?

Taverner  (1000+ posts)          Wed Dec-07-11 06:08 PM
 Response to Reply #21
25. Who does that now?

Nuclear Unicorn  (1000+ posts)        Wed Dec-07-11 06:53 PM
 Response to Reply #25
29. Yes, but its illegal and you can be punished/ordered into rehab
   Why should those who incapcitate themselves by their own choice be wards of the state? Talk about the ultimate free ride on the back of taxpayers. If I had my choice of helping a single-mother who is clean vs. someone debilitates themself through "recreational" use I'll choose the single-mom every time. I see no reason why recreational users should be supported for free when genuinely needy people require genuine help.

Can`t be talking like that,how fascist of you.

Lyric  (1000+ posts)        Thu Dec-08-11 11:14 PM
 Response to Reply #29
34. Look at rehab success rates.
   It rarely works in the long-term. Same with prison. "Punishment" is a failure, and frankly, it might be cheaper to pay for basic living expenses for a free citizen than to pay to keep them in prison or to pay for endless, useless trips to "rehab".

So now we are getting to the heart of it.

RainDog  (1000+ posts)          Thu Dec-08-11 11:37 PM
 Response to Reply #21
35. most people these days understand addiction as a disease
   and it comes about, often, by people who use an illegal substance that has bad health consequences - living in a drugged stupor is not considered a lifestyle choice for just about anyone I know.

rehab and health care, including mental health care, can help people.

people who are addicts generally relapse (that includes people who are addicted to a legal substance, alcohol.) this is part of it - and some people never get well... but some do. those who do can live productive lives.

it seems to me a better approach to addiction is to help those who can to overcome. those who cannot or are not yet in recovery may be helped by safe access. we, as a society, will suffer less harm and spend less money by doing things like needle exchange to cut HIV infections from needle sharing, for instance.

we as a society pay for addicts by paying for prisons. we pay in medical services. we pay in crimes against innocent people.

maybe if we can reduce use by removing the financial motivation to sell certain products, we can reduce the cost of dealing with those who have a substance abuse problem.

as far as money goes - we would save billions in govt. costs by legalizing. we would spend less money routing abusers into healthier situations.

rackfan  (1000+ posts)          Fri Dec-09-11 12:59 AM
 Response to Original message
36. I'd never shoot up, but I'd give Bayer Heroin a try.
   I'd be curious to see how it compared to Dilaudid or MS Contin.

Warren DeMontague  (1000+ posts)          Fri Dec-09-11 01:09 AM
 Response to Original message
37. If the only choices are across the board legalization and what we have now? Full legalization.
   Philosophically, I think it's not the government's business what a consenting adult chooses to do with his or her own body. Period.

That said, I do have trouble envisioning crank being sold at the 7-11. My standard working idea for reality is full legalization, regulation & taxation of at the very least pot and probably additionally certain proven-to-be-physically benign and in some cases beneficial psychedelics and quasi-psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, and MDMA. Drugs from cocaine to heroin to meth should be dealt with as a public health rather than a law enforcement issue, perhaps adopting a 'harm reduction' approach to addiction to them, along with good honest public education (best ad against meth is meth users themselves) as well as fully funded treatment on demand.

Someone mentioned not wanting to pay for addicts to maintain their addiction. Probably keeping a chronic heroin addict who refuses to get clean off the streets and in clean needles and heroin is cheaper than keeping him or her in prison.

I think in terms of purity, and the other issues you mention, a good case can be made for making everything available, regulated, pure and taxed and OTC. Certainly it makes more sense than doing things the way we do 'em now.

Free drugs,one of the DUmps proclamation of rights.

[franksolich]

What a bunch of juvenile excuses for drugs.

And this:

.....I think it's not the government's business what a consenting adult chooses to do with his or her own body.....

Substitute "other people's" for "government's" in this comment, and one gets my argument.

If other people are going to have to pay for what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, it damned well is other people's business.

If other people are going to have to pay the medical bills, the costs associated with crime and violence, the support and maintenance of children brought into being, the expenses of disability, the nonproductivity of unemployable labor, then it's other people's business too, what one does with one's body and brain.

Dumb****s.

[GOBUCKS]

If Taverner's heroin were made legal, he'd next want us to buy it for him. Then he'd want us to provide his needles and syringes.

Personally, I don't see a downside to the erratic quality and frequently lethal ODs under the current system.

Dead junkies are good junkies, though I will miss their crazy posts at the DUmp.

[AprilRazz]

If Taverner's heroin were made legal, he'd next want us to buy it for him. Then he'd want us to provide his needles and syringes.

Personally, I don't see a downside to the erratic quality and frequently lethal ODs under the current system.

Dead junkies are good junkies, though I will miss their crazy posts at the DUmp.

I would buy him a years supply of heroin. As long as he takes it all at once.

[franksolich]

I would buy him a years supply of heroin. As long as he takes it all at once.

Aren't the people, society, already stuck with paying for some of the Taverner primitive's own kids because he's worthless (due to drug use) when it comes to making a living?  I think anybody who's helping pay for the Taverner primitive's drug use is entitled to tell him what he can, and can't, do with his body and brain.

[USA4ME]

I saw that the other day.  This post...

Name removed (0 posts)      Wed Dec-07-11 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted sub-thread
 Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

... was Dreamer Tatum telling Taverner that his post count would be greatly diminished.

 

.

[Mike220]

Philosophically, I think it's not the government's business what a consenting adult chooses to do with his or her own body. Period.

How do you feel about the individual mandate then, DUmmy?

That's what I thought.

[miskie]

If it results in Darwin exterminating a bunch of loser primitives - and showing good and decent people what happens when you partake in toxic substances, then I am all for it.

1) Primitives overdose in vast numbers.
2) Intelligent people learn first hand what that crap can do, instead of relying on statistics and other 'boring' stuff.
3) The surviving intelligent and conservative population regains control of everything.

[Mr Mannn]

rackfan  (1000+ posts)       

36. I'd never shoot up, but I'd give Bayer Heroin a try.
   I'd be curious to see how it compared to Dilaudid or MS Contin.

Doesn't this just say it all? Legalize drugs and the DUmmies will line up and destroy whats left of their lives.

[mamacags]

I would personally be all for giving these morons a free dose of anything.  Just enough for them to O.D.

[Vagabond]

Krokodil is a nasty substance.

I wish these fools would go work in a methodone clinic for a while.  I had a friend end up in one.  Several days later he spoke of being really upset that they kept waking him up and weren't bothering the guy on the bed next to him.  Then they pulled the sheet over the guy and started wheeling him out.  That is what convinced my friend to stop, he was afraid to die.

[NHSparky]

And drug violence vanishes. The black market is gone, and the Zetas and what not go out of business.

Probably the greatest bullshit rationalization--and also wrong.

Question, Tav?  Where would the junkies get the money to buy their drugs?  Hint: the same place they get it now--proceeds from the crimes they commit. And last I checked, Oxycontin/Oxycodone are legal drugs, but that sure as **** doesn't stop them from being abused or obtained illegally.

And as far as drug cartels go?  Why pay big bucks for the licensed and taxed stuff when the "Zetas and what not" will make it at 1/4 or less of the cost and sell it to gullible addicted fools like you?

[jtyangel]

Probably the greatest bullshit rationalization--and also wrong.

Question, Tav?  Where would the junkies get the money to buy their drugs?  Hint: the same place they get it now--proceeds from the crimes they commit. And last I checked, Oxycontin/Oxycodone are legal drugs, but that sure as **** doesn't stop them from being abused or obtained illegally.

And as far as drug cartels go?  Why pay big bucks for the licensed and taxed stuff when the "Zetas and what not" will make it at 1/4 or less of the cost and sell it to gullible addicted fools like you?

Hi5, Sparks! Oxycontin was going to be my example too of how wrong he is. People mix that and Xanax(both prescribed meds) to get high. Tav seems to be undre the impression that a doctor will prescribe whatever dose your overload, drug addicted body wants and it will somehow be magically paid for by everyone else. Doctor's don't overprescribe Oxycontin now, what makes him think they are going to do it for heroin? Heroin users will do the same thing those addicted to prescription pain meds now do: a mixture of doctor shop, black market, and thievery. He won't eliminate anything. In fact, he will inevitably create more drug users. A good case in point is the DUer who said he won't shoot up, but he'll try Bayer heroin. You open the door when the barriers are lifted for those who actually do have respect for the law and that's all that's holding them back. A risk worth taking for something like alcohol and maybe even pot. Heroin would always be a controlled substance, even if it were legalized because of the potential for abuse and the ease with which one could become an addict. I don't think he's thought through anything--not hard to imagine considering he appears(from his fascination with it) to at least be a regular heroin user himself, if not an addict. I feel for his kids.

[franksolich]

I feel for his kids.

You're paying for his kids, too.

The Taverner primitive's an, uh, "absentee father."

[JohnnyReb]

Dr. JohnnyReb prescribes arsenic for all the DUmmies....the ultimate high.

[jtyangel]

You're paying for his kids, too.

The Taverner primitive's an, uh, "absentee father."

Yes, I know. And in the meantime they have a drug addict for a father raising them ensuring our support of his 'line' will continue in perpetuity.

[diesel driver]

You're paying for his kids, too.

The Taverner primitive's an, uh, "absentee father."

That may not be such a bad thing in this case.

[BlueStateSaint]

You're paying for his kids, too.

The Taverner primitive's an, uh, "absentee father."

IOW, "sperm donor."

[Karin]

Really, an absentee father now?  I did not know that.  Earlier in the year, he talked about his kids.  One wanted to turn over his piggy bank to dear old dad.