Author Topic: What gives a person faith in God?  (Read 17903 times)

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Offline soleil

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What gives a person faith in God?
« on: October 06, 2010, 07:18:37 PM »
This is a very broad question, and I intended it to be.

 Is it experiences? Is it already in our hearts and minds? Why are some so faithful and others not?

Faith is something you can't touch or see. It is something that you have or don't. Why? Free will? I guess, but that can seem harsh to me. Does everyone have some kind of experience with/from God that they don't recognize as such? Why is it considered a blessing when something good happens? Are we all blessed? I think so, but then there are these people who have so much tragedy in their lives. Is that a hidden blessing?

Ok, so the more I talk, the more questions I have. Let's just discuss this and see what people think.

Offline vesta111

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 07:45:07 PM »
This is a very broad question, and I intended it to be.

 Is it experiences? Is it already in our hearts and minds? Why are some so faithful and others not?

Faith is something you can't touch or see. It is something that you have or don't. Why? Free will? I guess, but that can seem harsh to me. Does everyone have some kind of experience with/from God that they don't recognize as such? Why is it considered a blessing when something good happens? Are we all blessed? I think so, but then there are these people who have so much tragedy in their lives. Is that a hidden blessing?

Ok, so the more I talk, the more questions I have. Let's just discuss this and see what people think.

Faith in God---

The fact that I have survived this long in situations that for health or stupid actions should have taken me out long ago.

Both my daughters are alive after facing death a time or two. Oldest now waiting for liver transplant.

Who cannot believe in God at this time of the year in the north as the trees blaze with color that takes ones breath away.

Anyone who has ever been on scene of a baby being born, or woman knowing there is a human growing inside her , really now can anyone not believe.?






Offline soleil

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 07:55:11 PM »
Faith in God---

The fact that I have survived this long in situations that for health or stupid actions should have taken me out long ago.

Both my daughters are alive after facing death a time or two. Oldest now waiting for liver transplant.

Who cannot believe in God at this time of the year in the north as the trees blaze with color that takes ones breath away.

Anyone who has ever been on scene of a baby being born, or woman knowing there is a human growing inside her , really now can anyone not believe.?

While I do agree that watching the birth of a child is so miraculous, it should make everyone know there is a god. But it doesn't. And what about those who have faced death and died? Or those in so much pain (either emotional or physical)? I have kept my faith in the most trying of times. I question, but I don't have to like the answer. Still, what makes me that way and not others? I wouldn't say I am stronger than they are. Who knows what others go through. I can only walk in my shoes.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2010, 08:49:06 PM »
I can't answer for anyone else...but for me, once you've met Him, you can get angry and deny Him, but you can't really lose faith...He is Someone you know.
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Offline soleil

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2010, 09:31:25 PM »
I can't answer for anyone else...but for me, once you've met Him, you can get angry and deny Him, but you can't really lose faith...He is Someone you know.
I agree with that FOR ME. But I wonder about others who have no faith in God. I wonder why they don't. What is it that makes them not believe or have faith? Yet I would give my life defending. It is strange. Why are some of us faithful? I wonder about this a lot. I have friends of all kinds of religions, thoughts, non-believers... I come across those who believe as steadfast as I do in their god as I do mine. I come across those who used to believe but have now reconsidered. It is fascinating to me. Not really in a good way, but still, it makes me wonder. I guess these things have been thought about forever, and we'll never really know in this lifetime, but why is it I feel blessed when others feel un-blessed?

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2010, 09:45:48 PM »
I agree with that FOR ME. But I wonder about others who have no faith in God. I wonder why they don't. What is it that makes them not believe or have faith? Yet I would give my life defending. It is strange. Why are some of us faithful? I wonder about this a lot. I have friends of all kinds of religions, thoughts, non-believers... I come across those who believe as steadfast as I do in their god as I do mine. I come across those who used to believe but have now reconsidered. It is fascinating to me. Not really in a good way, but still, it makes me wonder. I guess these things have been thought about forever, and we'll never really know in this lifetime, but why is it I feel blessed when others feel un-blessed?
I didn't believe for much of my adult life.  I went to church some as a kid, but it was cold...distant...nothing real.  Kind of like a boring social studies class.  My folks believed in God, but I suppose bought into the line that we should all make our own decision (though they didn't think that about much of anything else!!!)  God just wasn't anyone real.  I didn't mind my kids saying the whole pledge, and I sent one child to a private Christian school to keep her off Ritalin...but it was just something "thumpers" believed, not anything real.  I would guess that many are like that.  A lot would even consider themselves "Christian" precisely because they have never learned enough to know what "Christian" means.  The popular media certain enjoys portraying Christians as "thumpers," haters, racists, ignorant, etc. 

Then I met Mr Smith...the only "thumper" I'd ever known that actually knew his stuff.  He was very intelligent, very educated, and a nice guy...totally unlike any "real" Christian...so far as I knew.  He explained some actual theology...and wow, this stuff actually makes sense!!  It's not some garbage mishmash of ignorant ranting!  It was a pretty short step for me to figure out that I wasn't a Christian...and to want to fix that. 

I would guess that many, many people are in the same place I once was.  If you don't know anything, how can you figure out you're wrong?
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Offline colehart

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2010, 10:40:28 PM »
God always answers prayers, but not  always the way a person wants him to and they become bitter and lose faith.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 06:44:00 AM »
Will.

The Israelites had been freed from slavery and witnessed more miracles than a Mormon vagina sees childbirth and yet they went out and made a golden calf.

A Roman centurion heard rumors and sought out Jesus to heal a servant and was told by Jesus that the Israelites were the ones he had come to heal but the centurion willed himself past the rebuff.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline soleil

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 07:54:46 PM »
Will.

The Israelites had been freed from slavery and witnessed more miracles than a Mormon vagina sees childbirth and yet they went out and made a golden calf.

A Roman centurion heard rumors and sought out Jesus to heal a servant and was told by Jesus that the Israelites were the ones he had come to heal but the centurion willed himself past the rebuff.

So why doesn't everyone have that will? You've explained to me before where you come from as far as your beliefs go, and you are extremely educated in theology, or so it seems.

If I may ask, how do you view the Bible? Part true? All true? A good read?

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 10:45:52 PM »
So why doesn't everyone have that will?

Everyone does have that will. Their will carries them to exactly the place they want to be.

Don't you think the Israelites wanted/willed the golden calf even though they could still see the lightning from Mt Sinai?

Angel or demon, sinner or saint; everyone is given the gift of exactly what they wanted most.

"Thy will be done."
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Magnetar

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 07:55:41 PM »
I think it's a fundamental disposition people have just by virtue of human capacity for intellectual and abstract thinking.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 12:29:38 PM »
I think it's a fundamental disposition people have just by virtue of human capacity for intellectual and abstract thinking.
Expound please.

I'm intrigued.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Varokhâr

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 12:57:13 PM »
For me, it is the inability to reason that something can proceed from nothing that convinces me that God exists. God, being God, isn't bound by the same laws of physics that His creation is, so thus it is perfectly reasonable that He can have existed always, even before time and space themselves (which are only His creations as it is).

Of course, my belief in God is shaped almost entirely by my Catholic faith - but I've been around the block. I was a Protestant for about a year in my late teens, and wholly left Christianity altogether in my late 20s. Both times, I came back to the Church, though I was always impacted by my experiences otherwise. So, I've been Pagan (many kinds of that, really), been Buddhist, been agnostic and been atheist and been Deist.

Paganism and Buddhism failed me because of other theological reasons. Atheism failed me because I could not reason that the universe had no beginning. Even if evolution were true and no biological organism in the cosmos is now as it was in the beginning, a First Cause absolutely had to be present, even if just to create the building blocks and set them into motion. Agnosticism failed me because I find it equally as hard to believe that the Creator wouldn't want to be involved with the world He bothered to create, especially given the history of "miraculous" events that humankind is aware of.

So, I choose faith. I choose to believe in a God (only one God, as per the most beneficial and powerful religion the world has ever known, but for other reasons as well [see Paine]), but also in a moral and all-good God. I choose that faith because I believe all that is good and right and true has a source as well, and it must necessarily be God. We humans can develop our understanding of it, but we cannot be its source anymore than we are the source of anything else in the universe. I choose, deliberately, to believe in an all-good, moral God because it doesn't make sense that God would be the Promoter or anything else, and also because it simply enriches life so much more to believe that such a being exists. Hell, it's one of the best moral motivators ever; as Paine said, belief in such a God would encourage the believer to do only that which is seemly in His sight and not do what He would disapprove of.

In short, I cannot force myself to believe that no God exists, and the monotheistic explanations of God make infinitely more sense to me (as per the Catholic and Deist models).


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Offline rubliw

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2011, 08:49:32 PM »
I agree with that FOR ME. But I wonder about others who have no faith in God. I wonder why they don't. What is it that makes them not believe or have faith? Yet I would give my life defending. It is strange. Why are some of us faithful? I wonder about this a lot. I have friends of all kinds of religions, thoughts, non-believers... I come across those who believe as steadfast as I do in their god as I do mine. I come across those who used to believe but have now reconsidered. It is fascinating to me. Not really in a good way, but still, it makes me wonder. I guess these things have been thought about forever, and we'll never really know in this lifetime, but why is it I feel blessed when others feel un-blessed?

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

The problem of evil is probably the single most devastating argument to me, against the existence of the all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God.  

I think naturalism explains the universe better than theism does.




Offline MrsSmith

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 09:01:29 PM »
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

The problem of evil is probably the single most devastating argument to me, against the existence of the all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God.  

I think naturalism explains the universe better than theism does.




A world without evil is a world without empathy, compassion and selflessness.  God allows evil for a season, for a reason.
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Offline debk

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 09:31:21 PM »
I was brought up in the Episcopal Church...or as my son calls it, Catholic Lite. Back in those days, particularly in a "high" Episcopal Church, it was as much if not moreso, Catholic than today's Catholic Church.

I was taught God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Ghost. At the time, I was too young to question, and young kids didn't question God's existence in those days...we never knew there was a choice. 

Less than a week after my 13th birthday, God was standing at the foot of my bed, in an intensive care unit of a hospital. He had come to get me. I had had the Last Rites a couple of times, at that point. Was it a drug/pain induced vision? Nope, it was God.

I have never doubted that God existed. I have questioned Him, asked Him why? so many times, have cried to Him in anger, screamed at Him in anger.

But doubt His existence? Not ever. 

As a child, it was faith....since 13....it's been certainty. 
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

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Offline Gina

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 08:32:35 AM »
What gives me faith in God?

It's the feeling that I have his hand on my shoulder in my worst times.  It's knowing that I can say "I trust you God" and all my worries actually fade from my being.  God has gone out of his way to show me he is here all the time, he cares that much for me.






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Offline rubliw

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 01:26:51 PM »
A world without evil is a world without empathy, compassion and selflessness.  God allows evil for a season, for a reason.

I don't think this is true.  There's nothing I can see about compassion, empathy, and selflessness which would make them impossibilities in a world without evil.  You also presume that those things are so valuable, that evil is justified - not sure that is true either.

And note that the problem of evil doesn't suggest that there cannot be any evil, just that the sheer amount and severity of evil (which often doesn't seem to be necessary for some greater good) makes it improbable (but not impossible) that theism is true.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:51:38 PM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 01:40:09 PM »
A world without evil is a world without empathy, compassion and selflessness.  God allows evil for a season, for a reason.
Nonsense.

That's like saying fidelity cannot exist without adultery. Yet, it would be entirely possible to have fidelity if humans weren't motivated by self-indulgence, pettiness, vindictiveness and spite.

God does not permit adultery to extol fidelity, God heals adulterers. Healing in no way implies permission; on the contrary it implies intolerance; the way a physician is intolerant of the disease and would eradicate it so as to return the body to health. One might as well praise cancer in order to preen about the skills of an onycologist.

The fact that God would show patience should also not be mistaken for desire, permission or even tolerance, it is merely what it is: patience.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Varokhâr

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 02:04:35 PM »
God allows evil for a season, for a reason.

I believe there is much more to this than we realize, and it all has to do with human nature.

For a time, I had the same objections that rubliw and SGT have expressed. Why would God permit evil to exist, especially if He could make the world function just fine without evil? After all, if that is how He intended it, if we go by the account of Genesis, and one would presume that an all-loving and all-powerful God would want it that way, right?

Or... is that just human frailty speaking? Is it the same as the presumptions that Leftists make that the world ought to be a padded nursery wherein no no harm ever comes to anyone and everyone gets what they want? Is it just applying (however unconsciously) liberalism to matters of religion?

One thing I've noticed about life, something I'm sure many other folks have, is that hard times are good for the soul. Whether it be hard work teaching us about the value of responsibility and organization or whether it be times of financial difficulty teaching us how to appreciate simple things and a simpler life as opposed to a heavily materialistic outlook, humans often learn best when we have to learn the hard way. It's simply how we function; whether this is entirely by design of whether the introduction of sin into the world caused it somehow, the fact of the matter is that it is how things work as of the time of this post and for as long as we humans can recall.

Therefore, why should God immediately eliminate evil? God has given us all the tools to resist evil; He gave us consciences, He gave us the ability to reason, He gave us plenty of teachers and "prophets" who have expounded upon the topic of morality for centuries. If you are Catholic as I am, you believe that He gave us the Church as a moral guide. If not, you still can't but acknowledge the fact that humans have studied and refined our understanding of morality over the eons. Whether or not we adhere to it and live it out is one thing - but the fact that we have a highly-refined understanding of morality is impossible to deny. Why should God eliminate evil when He gave us the ability to defy evil every moment of every day of our lives? Why should God do for us that which He gave us the ability to do by ourselves? Did He create us for nothing?

No, God certainly doesn't "approve" of evil any more than moral humans do. But, God also gave us the ability to avoid evil; many moral exemplars throughout human history have lived as examples of this. If even one person can live in a moral, noble fashion, every human can do it. Yes, it's a high standard to hold each other up to, but a standard being high doesn't mean it is wrong. If just one Francis of Assisi can exist, a million of them can exist, and I don't mean merely in terms of charitable people. Francis was a highly moral man, and if he can be good, so can the rest of us, no excuses, because Francis was just a human being - born with the same mental and physical faculties we all were.

In a sense, evil can make good look better, because we understand much more fully how much good is needed whenever we see evil take place. But, we never need to let things degrade into genuine "evil" because we simply know that good is good because it is good, and if we need to, we can look to examples of it in the world to refresh our memories. Whether or not we approve of God's evident decision to permit evil to exist for now is immaterial; what matters is that we realize that God gave us all the ability to deny evil in our lives and prevent it from happening.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 02:08:08 PM by Varokhâr »


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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 07:24:17 PM »
Nonsense.

That's like saying fidelity cannot exist without adultery. Yet, it would be entirely possible to have fidelity if humans weren't motivated by self-indulgence, pettiness, vindictiveness and spite.

God does not permit adultery to extol fidelity, God heals adulterers. Healing in no way implies permission; on the contrary it implies intolerance; the way a physician is intolerant of the disease and would eradicate it so as to return the body to health. One might as well praise cancer in order to preen about the skills of an onycologist.

The fact that God would show patience should also not be mistaken for desire, permission or even tolerance, it is merely what it is: patience.
If humans weren't motivated by self-indulgence, pettiness, vindictiveness and spite...evil, pain and suffering would not be needed.  Without evil, there might be no pain and suffering.  How would anyone learn to feel empathy for another without it?  How would one learn to have compassion, to be selfless, to give if there were no reason?  Think about it...every single advance ever made by mankind has come to fight evil, pain, or suffering.  Everything from fire and clothing to MRI machines; everything from the first stick used to obtain food to the advanced weaponry we use to combat terrorism; everything from the first human impulse to care for another to the current systems of giving to the destitute, all due to our long battle against evil, pain and suffering. 

What would we have learned without those gifts?   
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 09:25:26 PM »
If humans weren't motivated by self-indulgence, pettiness, vindictiveness and spite...evil, pain and suffering would not be needed.  Without evil, there might be no pain and suffering.  How would anyone learn to feel empathy for another without it?  How would one learn to have compassion, to be selfless, to give if there were no reason?  Think about it...every single advance ever made by mankind has come to fight evil, pain, or suffering.  Everything from fire and clothing to MRI machines; everything from the first stick used to obtain food to the advanced weaponry we use to combat terrorism; everything from the first human impulse to care for another to the current systems of giving to the destitute, all due to our long battle against evil, pain and suffering. 

What would we have learned without those gifts?   
What you're claiming is evil produces good.

That is bass-ackwards. Love created the universe. The universe may be tainted and corrupt but compassion is, at its essence, love re-asserting itself amid the evil that sought to displace it.

You are making the Devil the father of the Christ.

According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 06:00:57 AM »
What you're claiming is evil produces good.

That is bass-ackwards. Love created the universe. The universe may be tainted and corrupt but compassion is, at its essence, love re-asserting itself amid the evil that sought to displace it.

You are making the Devil the father of the Christ.


No, the devil is the master of this world.  Why do YOU think God left him here?  Is God just mean?  Does He enjoy watching people suffer?  Everything we know of God and Christ are the opposite.  Everything done for humans is done for our own good.  How can this not include the devil?  What do humans do when faced with evil?  A few join it, but most fight it.  Most join God.  Just as we do when faced with pain and suffering, some enjoy it, most fight it.  Those things are gifts to help mankind, and each individual person, SEE the 2 sides, and join one.  Otherwise, we'd all be a clueless as an infant.  How would we know about good, and love, and compassion if we never had any taste of the opposite?  Seriously, think it through.  How would anyone learn?  How would anyone ever freely choose God if there were no choice?
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Offline rubliw

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 08:26:06 AM »
MrsSmith,

The points in your post are, for the most part, reducible down to one of the most popular and well-worn responses to the problem of evil:  that evil is necessary to facilitate some greater good.   That greater good may include empathy as you said earlier, or "soul building", or free-will, or any number of other things.  But the burden that is placed on the theist by the problem of evil is enormous and I don't think that response is good enough.  Nor is any other response that has been dreamed up to date, in my opinion (I've pretty much heard them all).

One reasonable thing to infer about God (based on His omniscience, omnipotence, and omni-benevolence) is that He would go about achieving His goals using the least amount of evil necessary.   In other words, if He could realize his goals by permitting one less rape, one less baby deer painfully killed in a forest fire, one less starved child, or even one less hangnail, He would.  So with that in mind, the theist and the atheist find themselves in the following positions:

Theist:  Every single instance of evil in the world was necessary to bring about a greater good
Atheist: At least one instance of evil in the world was not necessary to bring about a greater good.  

Given the sheer amount and intensity of suffering and evil in the world, the latter seems far more likely to me.  In fact, it looks like many instances of evil in the world did not (or will not) bring about some greater good.  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 08:48:44 AM by rubliw »

Offline Varokhâr

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Re: What gives a person faith in God?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 08:56:52 AM »
MrsSmith,

The points in your post are, for the most part, reducible down to one of the most popular and well-worn responses to the problem of evil:  that evil is necessary to facilitate some greater good.   That greater good may include empathy as you said earlier, or "soul building", or free-will, or any number of other things.  But the burden that is placed on the theist by the problem of evil is enormous and I don't think that response is good enough.  Nor is any other response that has been dreamed up to date, in my opinion (I've pretty much heard them all).

One reasonable thing to infer about God (based on His omniscience, omnipotence, and omni-benevolence) is that He would go about achieving His goals using the least amount of evil necessary.   In other words, if He could realize his goals by permitting one less rape, one less baby deer painfully killed in a forest fire, one less starved child, or even one less hangnail, He would.  So with that in mind, the theist and the atheist find themselves in the following positions:

Theist:  Every single instance of evil in the world brought about a greater good
Atheist: At least one instance of evil in the world did not (or will not) bring about a greater good. 

Given the sheer amount and intensity of suffering and evil in the world, the latter seems far more likely to me.  In fact, it looks like many instances of evil in the world did not (or will not) bring about some greater good. 


That's a very narrow perspective, don't you think?

Why would a theist claim that every evil brought about a greater good? If God has given us the ability to respond to evil in a positive and productive way, it depends on each individual responding in a positive and productive way - that will vary with each person. The potential for every evil to bring about a greater good (or just a greater understanding of good) naturally always exists - whether or not each individual exposed to that evil will react as he or she ought is another story, but they each have the ability to.

It's what always annoyed me about atheism - very narrow-minded and wholly unimaginative scenarios used as examples to illustrate that no God could possibly exist. No concept at all that if there is a god, then naturally that god's thought processes are infinitely more complex than those of his creations must also be considered. The atheist makes no room for any other possibilities that he is capable (or desirous) of understanding.  If evil fails to bring about a greater good, it's not the fault of evil or good or God, but the fault of those who exposed to the evil and choose an inferior response.

Instead of asking why does God permit so much suffering, we should be asking why do we humans permit so much of it?


Deist. Libertarian. Patriot.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ