Author Topic: Christians that make up the laws and rules.  (Read 10854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2010, 08:27:32 PM »
Our prior disagreements on theological matters notwithstanding.....I tend to agree with you on this, and I really can't explain why, other than the fact that I too, was raised in a Southern Baptist Church, and it just wasn't done......however, my wife and I attend a rural Christian Church now that does have a female pastor, and she is very good at what she does......I'm not comfortable with it in toto, but for a variety of non-related reasons it works for us from a theological perspective.

I'm not certain that I'll buy into the Biblical male/female role mandates that many Christian sects adhere to  because, as you and I have discussed before, I tend to view Scripture through a more pragmatic and interpretive lens than you do, but that is another issue.  Perhaps due to my upbringing, a male pastor just seems to be more "comfortable" for unknown reasons to me.

doc
I didn't buy it at first, either.  However, so much of the Biblical rules are now mirrored in so many marriage manuals, both religious and secular, that it seemed wise to try it.  By now, as I said, I am convinced that the issue is not a Biblical-unBiblical issue, it is rather a statement about human nature and human relationships.  I do believe that God blesses us for obedience, but I also believe that a purely secular marriage will strongly benefit from a woman allowing a loving husband to have final headship in the house...and the example of a loving, thoughtful, careful man giving due consideration to an important decision while his wife allows him the headship is a wonderful example for children of both sexes.  Boys learn to think of someone besides themselves in making choices, and girls learn what kind of man they wish to marry someday.

The current feminist movement is great for girls, but it is killing our boys and emasculating our men.  All statistics prove this, from the drop-out rates to graduation rates to college attendance to divorce statistics.
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline Doc

  • General Malcontent and
  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 830
  • Reputation: +2/-3
  • Sic transit gloria mundi
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2010, 02:32:24 PM »
The current feminist movement is great for girls, but it is killing our boys and emasculating our men.  All statistics prove this, from the drop-out rates to graduation rates to college attendance to divorce statistics.

I can certainly agree that the feminist movement, along with several other caustic social ills are creating this phenomenon.

doc

Offline RightWingMama

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 23
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2010, 03:59:32 PM »
A woman can teach co-ed classes, teach kids, teach women's groups, do really every job in the church except actually preach.  Married or not...or married to the pastor...makes no difference.  The pastor is male.  God did lay out different roles for men and women, and He built people with a different perception based on sex.  

With few exceptions...those exceptions being men henpecked to death...Mom can scold, snarl and punish miscreants with less effect than when Dad puts his foot down.  Even if Mom is scarier than Dad, Dad can still chill everyone when he chooses, and with less effort.

As unfair as we may think it, a man and a woman in authority that do EXACTLY the same thing will get different reactions...we are far more likely to see the man "being in authority" and the woman as a B____.  People are simply built to react different to authority depending on the sex.

Au contraire. When my husband (along with a busload full of grown men) arrived at Parris Island MCB, a female drill instructor is the one who climbed on the bus to order them to unload, and she scared the bejeezus out of the whole bunch.

Women can assert themselves and be authoritative, and simply because some women look like "B's" doesn't mean that every woman who asserts authority is one.

Plenty of women assert authority and are well respected. From the Bible: Deborah, Huldah, Anna. From modern day: Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann.

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2010, 05:52:35 PM »
Au contraire. When my husband (along with a busload full of grown men) arrived at Parris Island MCB, a female drill instructor is the one who climbed on the bus to order them to unload, and she scared the bejeezus out of the whole bunch.

Women can assert themselves and be authoritative, and simply because some women look like "B's" doesn't mean that every woman who asserts authority is one.

Plenty of women assert authority and are well respected. From the Bible: Deborah, Huldah, Anna. From modern day: Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann.
I can't say that I know the spouses of any of these women...but from the looks of it, Todd Palin is not a doormat.  Sarah can assert herself out in the world just fine without emasculating her husband.  I would go so far as to believe that the women most honored in the Bible may have exerted authority without having to "win."  

I work in healthcare, so the majority of our leaders are women.  There are some that manage excellent departments without causing anyone to look on them as b's.  Most, however, only manage because their employees are already dedicated to doing well for the sake of the patient.  That is certainly not to say that men aren't lousy leaders...but the facts still remain that a man and a woman exhibiting identical behavior will cause different reactions in those under their authority.  A few exceptions here and there no more negate that rule than any other.

As for the pastor-church relationship, it is not only the nature of humans to look up to male leaders with less defensiveness, but this relationship also mirrors the relationship between Christ and the church.  Even at it's most warped, mankind has never been truly comfortable with expecting women to lay down their lives in the way Christ laid down His life for His church. (on edit, to add to this, the pastorate is an overwhelming job, demanding 24x7 attention, calling pastors out in the middle of the night for emergencies of all sorts.  A woman who is a mother has no business taking on a job like this, either!) 

I know women can command obedience and terrify people.  We are so good at it that, today, we tend to destroy our most intimate males...husbands and sons.  That is why a woman is blessed when she chooses not to do so.

I am not going to insist that any other women stop bullying and henpecking their husbands...or that no one can possibly respect a female pastor...I'm just saying that for the BEST relationships, the BEST outcome of the church, the male leadership is the key.  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 05:54:54 PM by MrsSmith »
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline RightWingMama

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 23
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2010, 10:33:13 PM »
I'm confused. Is it your stance that women should be in authority over men sometimes, or should not be in authority? I'm not trying to be a smart alec, I'm just genuinely confused.

If we want to stay Biblical with this, then what about female leaders who held authority over men. Like Hulda and Deborah.

I understand what you're saying about how a mother shouldn't have a job where she's constantly being called away from her children. From a very logical/biological standpoint, a mother of young children literally provides the nourishment for them in the form of breastmilk. Men simply don't have the equipment. On the other hand, I feel like men with young children shouldn't be deacons, because it takes up so much time they'd otherwise be spending with their children during their formative.

As far as society having never been comfortable expecting women to lay down their lives... As previously mentioned, Deborah led Israel into battle.  Jael (a woman) was the one who hammered a tent stake into the Sisera's head. I guess what I'm saying is that while it seems like a recent event that women are being allowed into the military, there's nothing new under the sun.

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 05:05:09 PM »
I'm confused. Is it your stance that women should be in authority over men sometimes, or should not be in authority? I'm not trying to be a smart alec, I'm just genuinely confused.

If we want to stay Biblical with this, then what about female leaders who held authority over men. Like Hulda and Deborah.

I understand what you're saying about how a mother shouldn't have a job where she's constantly being called away from her children. From a very logical/biological standpoint, a mother of young children literally provides the nourishment for them in the form of breastmilk. Men simply don't have the equipment. On the other hand, I feel like men with young children shouldn't be deacons, because it takes up so much time they'd otherwise be spending with their children during their formative.

As far as society having never been comfortable expecting women to lay down their lives... As previously mentioned, Deborah led Israel into battle.  Jael (a woman) was the one who hammered a tent stake into the Sisera's head. I guess what I'm saying is that while it seems like a recent event that women are being allowed into the military, there's nothing new under the sun.
**sigh** There are exceptions to every rule. 

Women should not be in authority over men especially in intimate relationships or those that mirror the relationship of Christ and His church...as with marriage and the pastorate. 

Beyond that, human nature USUALLY accepts male authority better.

The vast majority of the time, both sexes are blessed by allowing male headship.  Among the thousands and thousands of examples, there are occasional exceptions.

The fact that women occasionally are in battle does not mean the human race is comfortable with that.

Seriously, if God wanted women to do everything, He'd have sent His daughter!  As it is, He reserved a few things for men to do. 
Given that a woman's work is never done...it's just fair that men should do something.
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline Doc

  • General Malcontent and
  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 830
  • Reputation: +2/-3
  • Sic transit gloria mundi
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2010, 11:54:12 AM »
**sigh** There are exceptions to every rule. 


True.....however, as a scientist, I can assert with some authority that....."the validity of a rule is defined by its exceptions......"

One should therefore be very careful with "rules".....

doc

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2010, 05:45:28 PM »
True.....however, as a scientist, I can assert with some authority that....."the validity of a rule is defined by its exceptions......"

One should therefore be very careful with "rules".....

doc


I agree. Either it is ok, or it isn't. Of what situations would make it ok? It can get sticky.

But as I said, I have absolutely no problem with a woman leading a church. As long as she is a hardcore believer and is intelligent about what she is talking about. But I would have those same rules for anyone leading a church.

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2010, 11:54:28 AM »
I agree. Either it is ok, or it isn't. Of what situations would make it ok? It can get sticky.

But as I said, I have absolutely no problem with a woman leading a church. As long as she is a hardcore believer and is intelligent about what she is talking about. But I would have those same rules for anyone leading a church.
There are millions of situations in which the normally correct rules may be permissibly laid aside.  There are only a few in which the correct rules are always correct.  Black and white are nice colors, but even with Biblical rules, gray happens.  As was pointed out, there are a few Biblical examples of women taking a man's role and obviously being blessed in it...in the thousands of years of history covered by the Bible.  This in no way negates the norm...that giving the gift of headship to your husband is far more likely to help your marriage than hurt it.  But hey, any woman that truly feels she is the one-in-a-million difference, go for it!   :-)
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 06:28:18 PM »
There are millions of situations in which the normally correct rules may be permissibly laid aside.  There are only a few in which the correct rules are always correct.  Black and white are nice colors, but even with Biblical rules, gray happens.  As was pointed out, there are a few Biblical examples of women taking a man's role and obviously being blessed in it...in the thousands of years of history covered by the Bible.  This in no way negates the norm...that giving the gift of headship to your husband is far more likely to help your marriage than hurt it.  But hey, any woman that truly feels she is the one-in-a-million difference, go for it!   :-)

I don't think I am one in a million, but I know what works for my husband and me. Of course we are still young in our marriage (8 1/2 years). We've been together since I was 15, and we just work at it. We are equals in our marriage. Marriage is about compromise to me. It isn't about my husband having the final say. If he is extremely passionate about something and I am not, I obviously take his feelings into consideration and vice versa. But that goes with any decision we make. My husband also has a very laid-back demeanor. He is a go with the flow kinda guy. Always has been. I am laid-back, but nothing like he is. So sometimes it works better for me to step up and make the decision, with his blessing of course. What works for some doesn't always work for others.

We had marriage counseling before we got married. It is a requirement of the Episcopal church. And the priest of that church was a woman. She counseled us, and she was magnificent. And quite honestly, I felt more comfortable being open with her than I would have a man. Not sure why either.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23049
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2010, 01:46:06 PM »
...I felt more comfortable being open with her than I would have a man. Not sure why either.
Perchance could you poll your husband on this particular sentiment from his viewpoint?

I'm curious if he would have felt more comfortable with a male counselor. Even if it didn't matter one way or the other such things would say much.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2010, 06:20:36 PM »
Perchance could you poll your husband on this particular sentiment from his viewpoint?

I'm curious if he would have felt more comfortable with a male counselor. Even if it didn't matter one way or the other such things would say much.

Actually we did discuss it. He didn't seem to have a preference. We were both a little uncomfortable because this woman was asking very personal questions. She had that quality, though, that made you feel ok to say what you wanted to. No judging going on. For instance my husband and I were living together. Not married. Obviously a no-no. She didn't flinch, nor did she preach to us about it being wrong. She was there to counsel us for marriage. And she did a wonderful job.

My husband is the most laidback person on the planet. Not muchs ruffles his feathers. He really would have been ok with a man or a woman.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23049
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2010, 06:27:58 PM »
At the expense of prying: what do you think underlies the fact you had a preference for someone of the same gender but your husband did not?

I'm not trying to pick but if any person performing any professional function were sufficiently competent, personable and professional why would any of their demographic attributes matter? I would imagine even a celibate priest could be a good marriage consellor.

I tend to think that when people want Person X to share Characteristic Y what they really want is an advocate of sorts, not an dispassionate professional.

I may be wrong in general or your case in particular, I'm just curious.

Bunnies are always a very curious breed.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2010, 07:09:35 PM »
At the expense of prying: what do you think underlies the fact you had a preference for someone of the same gender but your husband did not?

I'm not trying to pick but if any person performing any professional function were sufficiently competent, personable and professional why would any of their demographic attributes matter? I would imagine even a celibate priest could be a good marriage consellor.

I tend to think that when people want Person X to share Characteristic Y what they really want is an advocate of sorts, not an dispassionate professional.

I may be wrong in general or your case in particular, I'm just curious.

Bunnies are always a very curious breed.

You may be right about that. I really can't say for sure. I guess opening up about sex and other topics, I felt more comfortable discussing that with a woman because I am one. However, I say that, but I also have a man gyno. I've had women and men, and that doesn't bother me (that just sounds bad lol). And that is a very personal experience as well. And they delve into your sexual life as well. I don't know the answer to that. You are probably on to something though.

However, I do know that a woman can preach and get the congregation just as hyped up about God as a man can.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23049
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2010, 07:11:56 PM »
You may be right about that. I really can't say for sure. I guess opening up about sex and other topics, I felt more comfortable discussing that with a woman because I am one. However, I say that, but I also have a man gyno. I've had women and men, and that doesn't bother me (that just sounds bad lol). And that is a very personal experience as well. And they delve into your sexual life as well. I don't know the answer to that. You are probably on to something though.

However, I do know that a woman can preach and get the congregation just as hyped up about God as a man can.
With your OB/GYN that relationship is just you and him.

The female minister was between you and your future husband, the supposed head of the family.

See the difference?
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2010, 07:17:49 PM »
With your OB/GYN that relationship is just you and him.

The female minister was between you and your future husband, the supposed head of the family.

See the difference?

Well actually my husband is there with me every time I go to the OBGYN. I am a big baby when it comes to doctors, and I need some backup!! lol! And really, my OBGYN has a relationship with the both of us. Going through my pregnancy brought me close with him as a doctor, and now I'd consider him a friend. My husband would as well. But I do get what you are saying, and I can't say I disagree.

Offline Godot showed up

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Reputation: +115/-90
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2010, 11:40:41 AM »
There are just too many rules, man.  I'm simplifyin' things. And only 3 commandments; the rest (5) are Guidelines; Thus, and Yea, Verily, I Say Unto You...ah, Thee:



The Godot Commandments

1. Thou Shalt Render Unto Godot 1/10th of all Thy Property and Wealth Each Year
2. Thou Shalt Not Murder
3. Thou Shalt Not Steal


The Godot Guidelines:

1. Thou Shalt All Be Conservatives, Not Dems, Rinos, or Ronulans. Socialism and Communism Are Right Out
2. Thou Shalt All Read Science Fiction and Fantasy, Then Thou Mayest Read of the Other, Lesser Genres
3. Thou Shalt Not Bogart That Spliff
4. Thou Shouldst Not Take the World Too Seriously, Excepting Godot's Commandments and Guidelines
5. And Rememberest--Godot Is Full of It*


http://www.angelfire.com/music4/jdcr30/MusicLibrary/Cooke/SamCookeWhatAWonderfulWorld.wav

http://www.freemars.org/jeff/WondWrld/WondWrld.htm





















*"It" is, naturally enough, wisdom. Naturally. And Yea and Verily, Forsooth.

Offline vesta111

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9712
  • Reputation: +493/-1154
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2010, 02:30:10 PM »
With your OB/GYN that relationship is just you and him.

The female minister was between you and your future husband, the supposed head of the family.

See the difference?

AHA, you assume that her doctor is a MAN.

Now I understand the wisdom of the Muslim faith that sends woman to woman doctors and Males to Male doctors.

I was the victim of a male military doctor, sadist that doing a pap smear knew just what would cause me pain.  This crappie doctor knew I was of the mentally to not object or say anything to the nurse in the room who kept her back turned at all times in the examinations.

Sorry Mr. Bunny but this was a moment of education for me.

I would not want my Hubby to go to a female doctor for prostrate problems, nor would I go to a male doctor for female plumbing problems.

One does not call in a  Master Carpenter to fix a running toilet.


 

Offline soleil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Reputation: +57/-31
Re: Christians that make up the laws and rules.
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2010, 06:02:23 PM »
AHA, you assume that her doctor is a MAN.

Now I understand the wisdom of the Muslim faith that sends woman to woman doctors and Males to Male doctors.

I was the victim of a male military doctor, sadist that doing a pap smear knew just what would cause me pain.  This crappie doctor knew I was of the mentally to not object or say anything to the nurse in the room who kept her back turned at all times in the examinations.

Sorry Mr. Bunny but this was a moment of education for me.

I would not want my Hubby to go to a female doctor for prostrate problems, nor would I go to a male doctor for female plumbing problems.

One does not call in a  Master Carpenter to fix a running toilet.




No, I told him my gyno was a man. He didn't assume that.


I've been to women and men doctors. I am fine with either, as long as they are a caring, compassionate, and smart doctor. And right now, I wouldn't trade my man gyno for any woman in the world. He's a wonderful doctor, and he actually cares about me as his patient.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 06:04:24 PM by soleil »