Author Topic: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians  (Read 79142 times)

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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #275 on: January 17, 2010, 09:08:10 PM »
Fossils of their PREdecessors??   :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:  PREdecessors, by definition, must come BEFORE, not after.  

As it is, the tetrapods are now "proven" to have shown up several million years BEFORE their PREdecessors.  


Uh, no. The tracks found in Poland belong to a tetrapod which existed millions of years before the predecessor of another kind of tetrapod. We're talking about separate tetrapod lineages.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #276 on: January 17, 2010, 09:08:25 PM »
That is a question an Evolutionist will never give you a straight answer on.

For it requires an answer that would totally shatter their whole belief system

Hardly.  "I don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer which, BTW, is not the same thing as an admission that an answer will not be forthcoming from a purely scientific perspective all in due time.

Offline TheSarge

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #277 on: January 17, 2010, 09:18:46 PM »
Uh, no. The tracks found in Poland belong to a tetrapod which existed millions of years before the predecessor of another kind of tetrapod. We're talking about separate tetrapod lineages.

Actually here is what you tried to posit as proof earlier today and what I provided to refute what you'd said.

Quote
Quote from: The Night Owl on Today at 09:33:26
Our good friend Tiktaalik is one of perhaps several branches which led to tetrapods.

To which I replied:

Quote
Ummm...not quite.  Because your outdated BS doesn't take into fact that footprints of a full-tetrapod that were made about 20 million years before Tiktaalik have been discovered in Poland.

Philippe Janvier & Gaël Clément, "Muddy tetrapod origins," Nature Vol. 463:40-41 (January 7, 2010)


Sorry TNO...you failed again.


You're trying to engage in revisionism to wriggle your way out.

Next time wait a few days before you hope people forget what you've said.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #278 on: January 17, 2010, 09:19:33 PM »
Hardly.  "I don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer which, BTW, is not the same thing as an admission that an answer will not be forthcoming from a purely scientific perspective all in due time.

I can accept that as long as it comes with the admission that the whole thing is a belief system equal to any religious one.

Offline Carl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #279 on: January 17, 2010, 09:28:28 PM »
I had hoped TNO had recruited someone to bail his behind out that truly was an intelligent and capable debater.

When he announced his arrival it seemed like maybe it was but alas it is just another one that repeats old and tired arguments.

Quote
[Sun 09:32] <Darwinist> Say TxR, what makes you think you can? I've been cutting off creationists and IDers at their shoetops for almost 20 years now: what makes you special?

I wonder where that has happened over the last 20 years?

Offline Oceander

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #280 on: January 17, 2010, 09:31:03 PM »
I can accept that as long as it comes with the admission that the whole thing is a belief system equal to any religious one.

Not at all.  In fact, it isn't a "belief system" the way that, say, Christianity is, because Christianity does not depend on reproducible material results - in fact, it refuses to put any necessary weight on such results - whereas science is, at bottom, nothing but reproducible results.

Very simple to illustrate.  Do you believe in the miracle of the virgin birth?  If you do, then you must grant that your belief is founded on something other than the reproducibility of that event.  On the other hand, as science is limited to material events that are reproducible, the most that a legitimate scientist can say is: that could never happen unless it were a miracle.  To which the believing Christian will say: "precisely."  Notice, in particular, that the scientist cannot categorically state that the virgin birth never happened - for one thing, no scientist living now was there in person to witness the birth, or more importantly, the conception - the most that the legitimate scientist can state are the preconditions that would have to be filled in order for such an event to occur consistent with what we know about the material universe, which is, precisely, that a miracle would be needed - that is, God's direct intervention into the material universe.

But why should we believing Christians view that as a knock against us or our beliefs?  That is precisely what we believe the virgin birth to have been - a miracle: an irruption of the divine and the metaphysical into the physical, material universe, to cause the occurrence of an event that could not have transpired absent such divine intervention.

But that highlights one of the principal differences between science and religion - at least Christianity - science is built upon a foundation of reproducibility that permits one to oblige other people to accept one's views of the universe - by reproducing the event or property with respect to which one is attempting to enforce belief.  That, of course, also limits the scope of what science can, and cannot, discourse upon because science simply cannot say anything meaningful about an event that is, by its very nature, not reproducible.  Christianity, on the other hand, seeks to bring others to the light by means of non-obligatory persuasion.  That is, for His own reasons, some of which He has touched upon, God does not seek to coerce or demand belief, He seeks merely to persuade.  One is entirely free to choose non-belief, although that saddens God beyond our mortal ken, and the consequences of that non-belief, while they are there, are not used by God either as a means to bludgeon people into belief.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #281 on: January 17, 2010, 09:35:42 PM »
I had hoped TNO had recruited someone to bail his behind out that truly was an intelligent and capable debater.

When he announced his arrival it seemed like maybe it was but alas it is just another one that repeats old and tired arguments.

I wonder where that has happened over the last 20 years?

He is  no longer with us.......

Carry on.......

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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #282 on: January 17, 2010, 09:57:17 PM »
Actually here is what you tried to posit as proof earlier today and what I provided to refute what you'd said.

To which I replied:


You're trying to engage in revisionism to wriggle your way out.

Next time wait a few days before you hope people forget what you've said.

Dude! How can I put this? Tiktaalik is not the daddy of all tetrapods and neither is the creature responsible for the tracks found in Poland. Both represent separate lines. I can't put it more simply than that.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 10:02:05 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #283 on: January 17, 2010, 10:05:51 PM »
Dude! How can I put this? Tiktaalik is not the daddy of all tetrapods and neither is the creature responsible for the tracks found in Poland. Both represent separate lines. I can't put it more simply than that.

You were portraying it as one of the "missing links".

When the fact of the matter is that it's not.

You're now trying to back track on what you were originally trying to prove.

Give it up.  Seriously before you embarrass yourself any farther.
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Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #284 on: January 17, 2010, 10:14:40 PM »
I was just curious as to why some species don't seem to evolve much at all. The coelacanth for example, and some species of crocodiles and sharks come to mind.

Oh. And libs.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #285 on: January 17, 2010, 10:16:42 PM »
You were portraying it as one of the "missing links".

When the fact of the matter is that it's not.

Before it was found, Tiktaalik was a missing link... to a particular line of animal which may or may not exist today.

The tracks found in Poland are a big deal but not for the reason you think. What the tracks prove is that Tiktaalik was probably not the first fish with features similar to those seen in tetrapods and that tetrapods emerged much earlier than previously thought.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 10:22:18 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #286 on: January 17, 2010, 10:26:20 PM »
I was just curious as to why some species don't seem to evolve much at all. The coelacanth for example, and some species of crocodiles and sharks come to mind.

Oh. And libs.

Why would they?  There's no imperative that a species must evolve.

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #287 on: January 17, 2010, 11:31:38 PM »
Beats me. It just seems that if all these species are subjected to the same conditions that supposedly drive evolution, then why do some evolve while others don't? i was just curious. It's a long thread. Maybe somebody already mentioned those examples.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #288 on: January 18, 2010, 12:19:44 AM »
Beats me. It just seems that if all these species are subjected to the same conditions that supposedly drive evolution, then why do some evolve while others don't? i was just curious. It's a long thread. Maybe somebody already mentioned those examples.

A really good answer for a really good question:

Quote
Evolution
Species Change over time

Feb 6, 2007 John Blatchford

There are very many misconceptions about what most biologists understand by evolution. By definition any possible ancestor must be long dead, and describing any animal as ‘primitive’ is not the same as saying that it has not undergone the same amount of adaptive change as everything else. Coelacanths are certainly very much like some fossils, but that does not mean that they have stopped evolving. In much the same way modern crocodiles are very similar to fossil crocodiles. In both cases we can see that these animals are supremely adapted to their environments, but these environments have not changed recently and so nor have the animals.

Mantis Shrimps, as a group of animals, are twice as old as the dinosaurs. The dinosaurs’ environment changed too rapidly for them to adapt (maybe literally overnight if asteroid-impact theories are correct ), but the Mantis Shrimps have obviously been able to cope with changes. Everything alive today is equally ‘modern’, and when biologists describe a creature as ‘primitive’ they mean simply that it does not appear to have changed much recently. Fossils only give information about the harder parts of animals that existed in the past. Nothing about the physiology or behaviour of deceased animals is preserved in the rocks.

‘Survival of the fittest’ is a concept that is often misunderstood. It does not imply any ‘quality judgment’. In fact it is not even what Darwin said, his version was ‘survival of the best fitted’ … to their environment. The evolution of a species does not always lead to a more complicated version either - look at the barnacle parasites of crabs! These creatures evolved from shrimp-like ancestors to become parasites that look rather like blobs of jelly.

There appear to have been several periods in the earth’s history when the environment changed too rapidly for most animals to adapt. These events are known as ‘mass extinctions’, and it seems that we are presiding over one at the moment. Humans are causing much of the earth to change at a rate that is too fast for many species to cope with, and those species that are affected will probably join all those that are already extinct.

Evolution implies that all species alive today will either adapt to their changing environments or become extinct.

http://fishinsects.suite101.com/article.cfm/evolution
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #289 on: January 18, 2010, 12:27:26 AM »
Beats me. It just seems that if all these species are subjected to the same conditions that supposedly drive evolution, then why do some evolve while others don't? i was just curious. It's a long thread. Maybe somebody already mentioned those examples.

Fair dinkum.  Nature is efficient, which is to say, nature is lazy - why evolve when there's no need to?  In other words, if there is no external pressure that would tend to favor a change that is already implicit in the genetic makeup of a given interbreeding group of organisms, then that change will simply remain what it is - implicit.  Coelecanths never evolved because there was no pressure tending to favor any change over the already-existing form.

Offline Doc

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #290 on: January 18, 2010, 11:05:08 AM »
I was tracking along OK with this TNO, until this little bit of "ideology" slipped in, and pretty much crashed the author's entire premise.......

Quote
There appear to have been several periods in the earth’s history when the environment changed too rapidly for most animals to adapt. These events are known as ‘mass extinctions’, and it seems that we are presiding over one at the moment. Humans are causing much of the earth to change at a rate that is too fast for many species to cope with, and those species that are affected will probably join all those that are already extinct

Now although it is true that humans have hunted a number of species into extinction, this "broad-brush" attempt to lay blame for another period of "mass extinction" on humans (which, by the way, are part of the ecosystem as well), pretty much places this entire citation firmly in the arena of propaganda, rather than science......

"Peer reviewed" or not, it only takes one slip like this for any "scientist" to lose his/her credibility in the eyes of other trained observers.........propaganda has no place in science, regardless of how subtle.......state your case, cite your research and evidence, and arrive at the conclusion that your evidence supports.......wander into ideological nonsense, and your book, paper, thesis, or opinion becomes essentially worthless, even if it is "mostly" correct.

doc
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:17:02 AM by TVDOC »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #291 on: January 18, 2010, 04:41:18 PM »
Uh, no. The tracks found in Poland belong to a tetrapod which existed millions of years before the predecessor of another kind of tetrapod. We're talking about separate tetrapod lineages.
Uh, no.  Read the articles again, skippy.   :-)
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #292 on: January 18, 2010, 04:51:01 PM »
Uh, no.  Read the articles again, skippy.   :-)

Done. The article says nothing about the tracks belonging to a tetrapod descended from Tiktaalik.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #293 on: January 18, 2010, 09:24:53 PM »
Dude! How can I put this? Tiktaalik is not the daddy of all tetrapods and neither is the creature responsible for the tracks found in Poland. Both represent separate lines. I can't put it more simply than that.
Regardless of how you dance around the point, current fossil evidence puts tetrapods on the earth before ANY of their assumed PREdecessors.  The articles make it quite clear that this discovery total screws up the "settled" science of the evolution of tetrapods.  As I also posted, they are trying desperately to say that tetrapods must have evolved several times, in several different places and times, but there is no evidence for that desperate hope.

Oh, and I never said anything about Tiktaalik...you did.  It's merely been pointed out that Tiktaalik arose much later than his progeny, also.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #294 on: January 18, 2010, 09:57:04 PM »
Regardless of how you dance around the point, current fossil evidence puts tetrapods on the earth before ANY of their assumed PREdecessors.  The articles make it quite clear that this discovery total screws up the "settled" science of the evolution of tetrapods.  As I also posted, they are trying desperately to say that tetrapods must have evolved several times, in several different places and times, but there is no evidence for that desperate hope.

Oh, and I never said anything about Tiktaalik...you did.  It's merely been pointed out that Tiktaalik arose much later than his progeny, also.

MrsSmith - perhaps you should make an earnest attempt to learn about evolution from people who accurately represent it.  Not Discovery Institute knuckleheads or AIG.   So no.. tetrapods certainly have not been shown to be on earth, before any of their predecessors.  

Here is how the footprint discovery has affected the phylogenetic tree, and Tiktaalik (Tik in the picture) in particular.   The top tree is before the footprints - the bottom tree is after.  Notice how all the relationships remain the same, before and after, and all that gets changed is the timeline.  

Before:


After:


Please also note this curious fact - Tik is considered a transitional, yet it has no descendants.  Marinate on that for a second.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:05:53 PM by rubliw »

Offline dutch508

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #295 on: January 18, 2010, 10:29:47 PM »
MrsSmith - perhaps you should make an earnest attempt to learn about evolution from people who accurately represent it.  Not Discovery Institute knuckleheads or AIG.   So no.. tetrapods certainly have not been shown to be on earth, before any of their predecessors.  

Here is how the footprint discovery has affected the phylogenetic tree, and Tiktaalik (Tik in the picture) in particular.   The top tree is before the footprints - the bottom tree is after.  Notice how all the relationships remain the same, before and after, and all that gets changed is the timeline.  

[cut out boring charts]

Please also note this curious fact - Tik is considered a transitional, yet it has no descendants.  Marinate on that for a second.


Hey! Darwin came back as a sock puppet! Welcome back asshole!
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Offline rubliw

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #296 on: January 18, 2010, 10:49:04 PM »

Hey! Darwin came back as a sock puppet! Welcome back *******!

A few here know I am not a sock puppet

Offline dutch508

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #297 on: January 18, 2010, 10:57:51 PM »
A few here know I am not a sock puppet


Hmm...I was mistook...the same egotistical stupidity you come across with mirrors the writing style of darwinist.

Are you sure you don't have a masters in wymen's studies and a freakishly small penis?
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #298 on: January 18, 2010, 11:25:07 PM »
Seems to me it's about time this thread got moved over to the fight club....

Just my

Offline TheSarge

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Re: Why Darwinian Evolutionists Hate Mathematicians
« Reply #299 on: January 19, 2010, 06:06:34 AM »

Hmm...I was mistook...the same egotistical stupidity you come across with mirrors the writing style of darwinist.

Are you sure you don't have a masters in wymen's studies and a freakishly small penis?

That sums up pretty much everyone I've encountred on the internet who believe they are morally superior to everyone else because they buy into the Evolution Cult.

There are a few that are civil.

But most are like the Evo Cultists we've been dealing with here.
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