The Conservative Cave
Interests => Around the House & In the Garage => Topic started by: Chris_ on June 21, 2008, 01:54:14 PM
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THIS IS A SPLIT TOPIC. ORIGINAL TOPIC WAS STARTED BY JENDF. PLEASE CONTINUE GENERAL DISCUSSION HERE. --dixiebelle
I was in a car accident this morning. I feel so stupid. :bawl: I was cited for failure to yield and have to go to Shitty Drivers School on July 5th.
The good news is nobody was hurt and damage was minimal. I drive a white car and my front end is all black now. But there is hardly a dent. And the other driver's passenger card doesn't have much either.
But still, my insurance will likely go up and I've spent so much on repairs this year already. I'm so tired of expensive bills being thrown at me. I can't catch a break.
I want to simultaneously scream and cry.
If the damage was "minimal" why were the police involved ? For that matter if the damage is "minimal" why involve the insurance companies. Too late now,live and learn.
Always always always call the police. And if either insurance company is involved, both are.
If you don't call the police you are crazy. It is what keeps a small dent into becoming a rear end out of alignment and a whiplash.
yea and what would/could have been a couple hundred dollar repair bill beomes a couple thousand more in insurance premiums for the insured and others not involved. People moan about insurance costs yet if they get a hang nail they run to the dr and have it taken care under insurance . If their car gets a scratch on it they call the insurance & get a new paint job. You know insurance companies aren't picking up those bills out of the kindess of the hearts.they will recoup those losses one way or another or both.
INsurance has nothing to do with the price of repairs. You always have the right to go to your own repair place.
I love Insurance Companies. Even it I am in the wrong (OK,maybe not it has never happened), I make it clear that *I* will be calling the shots. They are used to people cowering and accepting small settlements and allowing their adjusters to dictate the terms.
They are quite entertaining for me.
It is only people who don't know their rights (yes, there are rights in Insurance Law). The Companies bank on that.
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I was in a car accident this morning. I feel so stupid. :bawl: I was cited for failure to yield and have to go to Shitty Drivers School on July 5th.
The good news is nobody was hurt and damage was minimal. I drive a white car and my front end is all black now. But there is hardly a dent. And the other driver's passenger card doesn't have much either.
But still, my insurance will likely go up and I've spent so much on repairs this year already. I'm so tired of expensive bills being thrown at me. I can't catch a break.
I want to simultaneously scream and cry.
If the damage was "minimal" why were the police involved ? For that matter if the damage is "minimal" why involve the insurance companies. Too late now,live and learn.
Always always always call the police. And if either insurance company is involved, both are.
If you don't call the police you are crazy. It is what keeps a small dent into becoming a rear end out of alignment and a whiplash.
yea and what would/could have been a couple hundred dollar repair bill beomes a couple thousand more in insurance premiums for the insured and others not involved. People moan about insurance costs yet if they get a hang nail they run to the dr and have it taken care under insurance . If their car gets a scratch on it they call the insurance & get a new paint job. You know insurance companies aren't picking up those bills out of the kindess of the hearts.they will recoup those losses one way or another or both.
INsurance has nothing to do with the price of repairs. You always have the right to go to your own repair place.
I love Insurance Companies. Even it I am in the wrong (OK,maybe not it has never happened), I make it clear that *I* will be calling the shots. They are used to people cowering and accepting small settlements and allowing their adjusters to dictate the terms.
They are quite entertaining for me.
It is only people who don't know their rights (yes, there are rights in Insurance Law). The Companies bank on that.
Oh yea insurance companies are quite accomidating because they are not the ones thats going to inccur any additional premiums or lose. They love it when "experts "call the shots because in the end it means nothing but additional premiums due them. Sure you are legally entitled to excercise your rights.Just bring your checkbook along when you do. :-)
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Oh yea insurance companies are quite accomidating because they are not the ones thats going to inccur any additional premiums or lose. They love it when "experts "call the shots because in the end it means nothing but additional premiums due them.
Oh no -- they try every trick in the book to get out of paying and to minimize their payments. The amount of the settlement has nothing to do with the premium increases. Whether they pay $250 or $250,000 the premium increase on their insured is the same (unless they drop them).
And, as I said, if any party calls their insurance the jig is up -- even if you don't submit a claim, the fact you were in an accident hits your account anyway.
But not calling the police is crazy.
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INsurance has nothing to do with the price of repairs. You always have the right to go to your own repair place.
I love Insurance Companies. Even it I am in the wrong (OK,maybe not it has never happened), I make it clear that *I* will be calling the shots. They are used to people cowering and accepting small settlements and allowing their adjusters to dictate the terms.
They are quite entertaining for me.
It is only people who don't know their rights (yes, there are rights in Insurance Law). The Companies bank on that.
Yup.
Actually it's only legal for the vehicle owner to negotiate repairs with the shop...unless you sign a POA....every state is a little different....and going to a repair shop that the insurance company suggests, is sorta like going to a hospital that a insurance company owns....not always a smart move!
Never take advice on how to collect money, from the person that owes you the money...(the adjuster)
I have never, never, never seen an adjuster write a complete estimate......they always leave something off.....and I have seen thousands of estimates....they like to write them low, hand you a check, and hope you don't actually get the car fixed....
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Oh yea insurance companies are quite accomidating because they are not the ones thats going to inccur any additional premiums or lose. They love it when "experts "call the shots because in the end it means nothing but additional premiums due them.
Oh no -- they try every trick in the book to get out of paying and to minimize their payments. The amount of the settlement has nothing to do with the premium increases. Whether they pay $250 or $250,000 the premium increase on their insured is the same (unless they drop them).
And, as I said, if any party calls their insurance the jig is up -- even if you don't submit a claim, the fact you were in an accident hits your account anyway.
But not calling the police is crazy.
Sure the amt of the claim doesn't affect the premium increase just the fact a claim was filed will. never heard of a premium increase due to the fact an insured never filed a claim/ As faras The Police go most states have an estimated property damge amt before you are legally bound to involve the police. sure if you are going to file a claim it's wise to get a police report to substanciate and prove the claim. Then again if a $500 repair bill will take care of it why involve the insurance companies and/or ythre police. that action alone will run you way more than $500.
Sometimes it's not about right or wrong but economic reality.
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Oh yea insurance companies are quite accomidating because they are not the ones thats going to inccur any additional premiums or lose. They love it when "experts "call the shots because in the end it means nothing but additional premiums due them.
Oh no -- they try every trick in the book to get out of paying and to minimize their payments. The amount of the settlement has nothing to do with the premium increases. Whether they pay $250 or $250,000 the premium increase on their insured is the same (unless they drop them).
And, as I said, if any party calls their insurance the jig is up -- even if you don't submit a claim, the fact you were in an accident hits your account anyway.
But not calling the police is crazy.
Sure the amt of the claim doesn't affect the premium increase just the fact a claim was filed will. never heard of a premium increase due to the fact an insured never filed a claim/ As faras The Police go most states have an estimated property damge amt before you are legally bound to involve the police. sure if you are going to file a claim it's wise to get a police report to substanciate and prove the claim. Then again if a $500 repair bill will take care of it why involve the insurance companies and/or ythre police. that action alone will run you way more than $500.
Sometimes it's not about right or wrong but economic reality.
My premiums did go up when I was involved in an incident (I also dumped that company).
You don't seem to understand my point about the police.
Te on;y way to objectively and legally assess the damage to property and people is via police report. If you don't call the cops, the other part could (and frequently does) exaggerate their damage or try to hang other damage on your event.
Always always always call the police. Don't save pennies when dollars are involved.
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Ok, I think I need to stop the misconceptions here before they get completely out of control. In my former life I was a casualty adjuster for motor vehicle accidents.
1) Yes, you should always contact the police when you are involved in an accident, as the police report usually prevents fraudulent claims from happening. That said, unless it is an accident with injuries the police don't always come (especially in big cities), and a police officer is not required to file a report unless there is visible damage over a certan dollar amount (depending on state), or injuries;
2) The amount you pay for premiums is contingent on many things, your driving history certainly one of them. If you are involved in an accident, the amount paid out for property damage will cause your premiums to increase if you are at fault for the accident -- and the dollar amount certainly does matter. A $600 claim is not a huge increase, a $10,000 claim will slam you. The citation you received from the police is going to hurt you also in the premium department as it affects your driving history. Note that the increases do not go into affect until your policy renews, and you can't hide from it -- every insurance company has access to the registry of motor vehicles, and every single claim you make is reported to a claims clearinghouse database. Insurance carriers are all knowing in the claims department, so always disclose and never lie about it as it is grounds for policy cancellation;
3) Always alert your insurance carrier to fender benders, even if claims are not filed. Your insurance carrier cannot defend you if you do not make them aware of the accident. In most states the statute of limitations on personal injury claims is 2-3 years, and a year out is usually the time when we receive a notice of appearance from claimant's counsel advising of the personal injury claim. You never tell us about the accident, then you removed our right to investigate the accident, interview the occupants of both vehicles, seek out witnesses in the area, and secure photos of both vehicles TO PROTECT YOU. Our job is to adjust claims and protect you from exposure to excess judgements (which is amounts awarded by juries for sums that far exceed what your coverage is). The insurance carrier's exposure is what you purchased for coverage. You on the other hand have exposure for everything you own and attachments on future wages. You purchased insurance for a reason, so use it. Remember your premiums will not go up unless a claim is filed and you are at fault for the accident. If no claim ever gets filed, no worries on your end. Further, not advising your insurance carrier of accidents promptly is grounds for cancellation or non-renewal of your policy.
4) I am sorry, but I have to laugh at loud at an assertion that adjusters count on ignorance, or take marching orders from our insureds. Not the case I can assure you. We are extremely well trained and educated in the field of insurance, and adjust claims in good faith and based on very strict regulations. Insurance carriers are audited yearly by the state -- trust me, they aren't screwing people to save money. They will however complete an settlement evaluation with a high and low figure range, with low pretty much being reflective of the information they have on hand. High taking into consideration some what if scenarios. If you don't like the figure presented then you are going to need to provide more commentary other than you don't agree with it. You will need to be prepared to submit solid reasons as to why you feel it should be higher. Note that 90% of my day was negotiating with attorneys who are extremely good at the art of negotiations. An insured would not intimidate me in the slightest. Give me reasons and solid arguments why you should get more and if I agree with you I will give you more. It really is that simple;
5) An appraiser is the party who appraises the damage to your vehicle or damaged property. While they could be employed by the insurance carrier (most are private contractors), they are licensed by the state and are bound by very strict regulations. Unless the vehicle is at a licensed autobody shop, and broken down in front of them, then they are only allowed to write for damage they can see. Once the autobody shop starts breaking down the vehicle they call them back to write for the hidden damage. For a vehicle to be considered a total loss it has to reach a certain threshold of dollar damage (which I think is 75% of the value of the vehicle), or it has to have been submerged in water, or the frame completely bent and unrepairable. They are not going to risk losing their license to play fast and loose for an insurance carrier. An adjuster is the party who works for the insurance carrier that determines the dollar value of your claim (property damage and injury -- two separate claims).
As to the opening post -- I am very sorry you had this accident today and am very glad to hear you were not injured.
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One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
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One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
I always go to the dealer-recommended body shop and never go to the insurance company's recommended place. You, like many others, seem to think the insurance company gets to say where you can go. As long as it is reasonable, they are on the hook.
You people are such babies -- so afraid of the big, bad insurance companies. They are putty if you know how to handle them. Sorry, F/L -- you would have been a bug on my windshield. But I was always the aggrieved party - the victim -- so maybe that is different than dealing with one's own insurance company when you are at fault.
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I am sorry, but I have to laugh at loud at an assertion that adjusters count on ignorance, or take marching orders from our insureds. Not the case I can assure you. We are extremely well trained and educated in the field of insurance, and adjust claims in good faith and based on very strict regulations. Insurance carriers are audited yearly by the state -- trust me, they aren't screwing people to save money. They will however complete an settlement evaluation with a high and low figure range, with low pretty much being reflective of the information they have on hand. High taking into consideration some what if scenarios. If you don't like the figure presented then you are going to need to provide more commentary other than you don't agree with it. You will need to be prepared to submit solid reasons as to why you feel it should be higher. Note that 90% of my day was negotiating with attorneys who are extremely good at the art of negotiations. An insured would not intimidate me in the slightest. Give me reasons and solid arguments why you should get more and if I agree with you I will give you more. It really is that simple
I throw the BS flag on this one. I have had insurance companies try every trick in the book. My favorite is "we haven't completed our investigation" when the other party was guiltier than sin, and -- my favorite -- if you don't go to our body shop you have to pay and then get reimbursed by us (implicitly "at our leisure.") "I am OK with that" has brought more than obe agent/adjuster/whatever to a screaming halt.
Insurance companies want to pay as little as possible -- that's OK. But insured and victims especially need to know their rights. The words "bad faith" go a LONG way in getting calls answered when the company is clearly dragging their feet and low-balling their "appraisals."
Sorry, buddy, but in the real world where the rest of us live, that is what really has happened. And more than once with pretty much every insurance company I have ever dealt with. At one point I had to sue my own company for an uninsured motorist claim -- I, of course, killed them in arbitration. But the fact we even had to go there belies your "we don't rely on the ignorance" assertion.
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One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
I always go to the dealer-recommended body shop and never go to the insurance company's recommended place. You, like many others, seem to think the insurance company gets to say where you can go. As long as it is reasonable, they are on the hook.
You people are such babies -- so afraid of the big, bad insurance companies. They are putty if you know how to handle them. Sorry, F/L -- you would have been a bug on my windshield. But I was always the aggrieved party - the victim -- so maybe that is different than dealing with one's own insurance company when you are at fault.
:lmao:
Sure sure, whatever you say.
As for your first paragraph you are wrong of course. I never stated you had to use a shop of the carrier's preferred shop list. The insurance carrier actually could give a tiny rats ass where you have it fixed, or if you fix it at all. They offer you a list of preferred shops for customer service reasons. It is actually a total pain in the ass for the insurance carrier to create and maintain that list as it involves audits and inspections of the autobody shops on it. You can most definitely have Joe blow mechanic fix your vehicle if that suits you and salute, good for you --- oooh, you stuck it to the man insurance company.<--- just another bug on your windshield?
Now on the other hand if you are the insured, your auto finance company cares if and where you have it fix, as they have a lien on your insurance policy. The check will come in your and your auto finance company's name - so you can slap them around and in line too feedumb2003. I am sure they are afraid of you too.
If you are the claimant then the insurance carrier will run a DOR check to make sure you aren't a deadbeat parent who owes child support, then they will send you the check. You can do whatever you want with it.
Again - the preferred shop option is to make your life easier. You want to see a conspiracy theory in there then by all means have at it.
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I am sorry, but I have to laugh at loud at an assertion that adjusters count on ignorance, or take marching orders from our insureds. Not the case I can assure you. We are extremely well trained and educated in the field of insurance, and adjust claims in good faith and based on very strict regulations. Insurance carriers are audited yearly by the state -- trust me, they aren't screwing people to save money. They will however complete an settlement evaluation with a high and low figure range, with low pretty much being reflective of the information they have on hand. High taking into consideration some what if scenarios. If you don't like the figure presented then you are going to need to provide more commentary other than you don't agree with it. You will need to be prepared to submit solid reasons as to why you feel it should be higher. Note that 90% of my day was negotiating with attorneys who are extremely good at the art of negotiations. An insured would not intimidate me in the slightest. Give me reasons and solid arguments why you should get more and if I agree with you I will give you more. It really is that simple
I throw the BS flag on this one. I have had insurance companies try every trick in the book. My favorite is "we haven't completed our investigation" when the other party was guiltier than sin, and -- my favorite -- if you don't go to our body shop you have to pay and then get reimbursed by us (implicitly "at our leisure.") "I am OK with that" has brought more than obe agent/adjuster/whatever to a screaming halt.
Insurance companies want to pay as little as possible -- that's OK. But insured and victims especially need to know their rights. The words "bad faith" go a LONG way in getting calls answered when the company is clearly dragging their feet and low-balling their "appraisals."
Sorry, buddy, but in the real world where the rest of us live, that is what really has happened. And more than once with pretty much every insurance company I have ever dealt with. At one point I had to sue my own company for an uninsured motorist claim -- I, of course, killed them in arbitration. But the fact we even had to go there belies your "we don't rely on the ignorance" assertion.
Dude, I had no idea you were a professional claimant.
You didn't get what you asked for equates to you not furnishing them with the proper info to get it, and/or you not knowing how to ask for it. So pardon me if I chuckle at your assertions. Even the lamest of lame of personal injury attorneys knows the negotiation process, and settles claims outside of litigation/arbitration.
As for the investigation is not complete, could have very well been the case. Insurance carriers must speak with their insureds, or have a pretty well written police report (which includes citations of our insured vehicle's operator) for us to find our insureds at fault for an accident. We are not beholden to the claimant. Kind of the way insurance works. You have a problem with the appraisal then contact the state licensing agent for the appraiser to complain he/she low balled you. I already explained how appraisals are written.
Also note on the reimbursing you? If you filed the claim as the claimant and you also have a personal injurt claim -- then yes, the insurance carrier certaily does not have to pay your property damage claim right away. They can wait until your personal injury claim is ready for settlement and pay it all at once. Claimants also like to screw insurance carriers by filing claims with both their and the at faut party's carrier. We pay the claimants claim, and look at that -- his insurance carrier sends us a claim of subrogation for the claim they paid also. Kind of happens a lot, so making you use an autobody shop that they know actually exists isn't exactly a bad thing.
Are there incompetent adjusters? sure there are, and there are really pathetic insurance carriers too. Next time do some due diligence and insure yourself, your loved ones and your belongings with a credible insurance carrier (which is what the majority of the big ones are). Don't bargain basement shop your insurance coverage.
Oh, and just because you aren't happy with the offer doesn't mean the insurance carrier wasn't spot on with what they offered you.
EDIT BY MOD -
One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
I always go to the dealer-recommended body shop and never go to the insurance company's recommended place. You, like many others, seem to think the insurance company gets to say where you can go. As long as it is reasonable, they are on the hook.
You people are such babies -- so afraid of the big, bad insurance companies. They are putty if you know how to handle them. Sorry, F/L -- you would have been a bug on my windshield. But I was always the aggrieved party - the victim -- so maybe that is different than dealing with one's own insurance company when you are at fault.
:lmao:
Sure sure, whatever you say.
As for your first paragraph you are wrong of course. I never stated you had to use a shop of the carrier's preferred shop list. The insurance carrier actually could give a tiny rats ass where you have it fixed, or if you fix it at all. They offer you a list of preferred shops for customer service reasons. It is actually a total pain in the ass for the insurance carrier to create and maintain that list as it involves audits and inspections of the autobody shops on it. You can most definitely have Joe blow mechanic fix your vehicle if that suits you and salute, good for you --- oooh, you stuck it to the man insurance company.<--- just another bug on your windshield?
Now on the other hand if you are the insured, your auto finance company cares if and where you have it fix, as they have a lien on your insurance policy. The check will come in your and your auto finance company's name - so you can slap them around and in line too feedumb2003. I am sure they are afraid of you too.
If you are the claimant then the insurance carrier will run a DOR check to make sure you aren't a deadbeat parent who owes child support, then they will send you the check. You can do whatever you want with it.
Again - the preferred shop option is to make your life easier. You want to see a conspiracy theory in there then by all means have at it.
You don't seem to understand -- I don't go to Joe Blow the Mechanic. I go to the best damn shop in town. And it is and was fine to me that the insurance paid them directly. But their half-assed threat about making me pay first 1) carried no weight since could easily afford it; and 2) was empty since they paid my shop. And they paid the full auto rental, not the $12 a day or whatever they said they would pay.
Insurance companies want to do one and only one thing -- stick it to everyone who makes a claim. It is my moral duty to stick it to them by ensuring every single right I have is protected. You think I want to waste my time going to their people? I am proud to say I have never spent 10 seconds with an insurance adjuster -- I just went to my shop and had them sent the bill. Which they paid. In full.
Listen to me people -- do NOT dance to the insurance company's tune. They will screw you every time.
You don't seem to understand. They don't care where you had your vehicle fixed, and without knowing the reason why they stated they wanted you to pay first I will withhold comment (unless of course it was because they have not determined liability yet, and can not pay it at that time). Some states actually take autobody shop's appraisals for work without requiring an independent one done -- I think that is an insane practice, but whatever -- their choice.
Never heard of an offer of $12/day for rental. As a claimant you are entitled to be placed in a comparable vehicle to the one involved in the accident. So you aren't getting a Cadillac Escalade if you own an Escort.
I have merged your comments from the original thread. Hopefully it looks right to you! --dixiebelle
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One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
I always go to the dealer-recommended body shop and never go to the insurance company's recommended place. You, like many others, seem to think the insurance company gets to say where you can go. As long as it is reasonable, they are on the hook.
You people are such babies -- so afraid of the big, bad insurance companies. They are putty if you know how to handle them. Sorry, F/L -- you would have been a bug on my windshield. But I was always the aggrieved party - the victim -- so maybe that is different than dealing with one's own insurance company when you are at fault.
:lmao:
Sure sure, whatever you say.
As for your first paragraph you are wrong of course. I never stated you had to use a shop of the carrier's preferred shop list. The insurance carrier actually could give a tiny rats ass where you have it fixed, or if you fix it at all. They offer you a list of preferred shops for customer service reasons. It is actually a total pain in the ass for the insurance carrier to create and maintain that list as it involves audits and inspections of the autobody shops on it. You can most definitely have Joe blow mechanic fix your vehicle if that suits you and salute, good for you --- oooh, you stuck it to the man insurance company.<--- just another bug on your windshield?
Now on the other hand if you are the insured, your auto finance company cares if and where you have it fix, as they have a lien on your insurance policy. The check will come in your and your auto finance company's name - so you can slap them around and in line too feedumb2003. I am sure they are afraid of you too.
If you are the claimant then the insurance carrier will run a DOR check to make sure you aren't a deadbeat parent who owes child support, then they will send you the check. You can do whatever you want with it.
Again - the preferred shop option is to make your life easier. You want to see a conspiracy theory in there then by all means have at it.
You don't seem to understand -- I don't go to Joe Blow the Mechanic. I go to the best damn shop in town. And it is and was fine to me that the insurance paid them directly. But their half-assed threat about making me pay first 1) carried no weight since could easily afford it; and 2) was empty since they paid my shop. And they paid the full auto rental, not the $12 a day or whatever they said they would pay.
Insurance companies want to do one and only one thing -- stick it to everyone who makes a claim. It is my moral duty to stick it to them by ensuring every single right I have is protected. You think I want to waste my time going to their people? I am proud to say I have never spent 10 seconds with an insurance adjuster -- I just went to my shop and had them sent the bill. Which they paid. In full.
Listen to me people -- do NOT dance to the insurance company's tune. They will screw you every time.
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By all means exert your Rights. Even if exerting your rights costs 3 times as much as just fixing the damage on your own but by golly you didn't let anyone push you around you sure showed them who is boss. :whatever:
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5) An appraiser is the party who appraises the damage to your vehicle or damaged property. While they could be employed by the insurance carrier (most are private contractors), they are licensed by the state and are bound by very strict regulations. Unless the vehicle is at a licensed autobody shop, and broken down in front of them, then they are only allowed to write for damage they can see. Once the autobody shop starts breaking down the vehicle they call them back to write for the hidden damage. For a vehicle to be considered a total loss it has to reach a certain threshold of dollar damage (which I think is 75% of the value of the vehicle), or it has to have been submerged in water, or the frame completely bent and unrepairable. They are not going to risk losing their license to play fast and loose for an insurance carrier. An adjuster is the party who works for the insurance carrier that determines the dollar value of your claim (property damage and injury -- two separate claims).
As to the opening post -- I am very sorry you had this accident today and am very glad to hear you were not injured.
Not in every state.
I think we both know of adjusters that do not even "write what they see"....for what ever reason....and yes, adjusters do try to low ball claims...you might not of done this, but many do....
I have repaired thousands of cars, and have never worked off an estimate that an adjuster wrote, those usually go in the trash! The good thing is, when an adjuster writes an estimate, it establishes that the insurance company has elected to pay for the damages in "money"....
The repair shop should always write their own estimate and seek consumer authorization off of that estimate (on the shop's letterhead, not the adjusters) in fact this is the law in many states, including IL....
If my computer blows up during an electrical storm and needs to go to Best Buy, will the insurance company go to Best Buy and let them know how much they are allowed to charge for the repair....or will the insurance company simply owe the final bill? (with exeception of total loss)
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One last comments on the using autobody shops that insurance carriers recommend -- this practice is always advisable. Why? because insurance carriers have pretty strict guidelines for an autobody to be accepted on their preferred shop list. The autobody shop must do the work for the amount of the appraisal (which means they will agree to the labor rate the appraiser wrote the appraisal at -- this is a big deal that claimants are not aware of and sometimes find themselves screwed when they got to pick up the vehicle to find a bill waiting for them). Lastly, the insurance carrier will guarantee the work done at the autobody shop, which for those who have have done battle with autobody shops over faulty work will tell you, that is a nice guarantee to have.
Insurance companies can not guarantee the repairs of another business!
The shop carries all the liability of the repair...and there are alot of unsafe reapirs out there.
Sorry, I won't take a car that needs to keep my family safe after a repair, to a shop that is willing to let the adjuster set the price of the repair! What other short cuts will they take to make their insurance partners happy???
How can an insurance company set labor rates??? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Shops agree to this? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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I am sorry, but I have to laugh at loud at an assertion that adjusters count on ignorance, or take marching orders from our insureds. Not the case I can assure you. We are extremely well trained and educated in the field of insurance, and adjust claims in good faith and based on very strict regulations. Insurance carriers are audited yearly by the state -- trust me, they aren't screwing people to save money. They will however complete an settlement evaluation with a high and low figure range, with low pretty much being reflective of the information they have on hand. High taking into consideration some what if scenarios. If you don't like the figure presented then you are going to need to provide more commentary other than you don't agree with it. You will need to be prepared to submit solid reasons as to why you feel it should be higher. Note that 90% of my day was negotiating with attorneys who are extremely good at the art of negotiations. An insured would not intimidate me in the slightest. Give me reasons and solid arguments why you should get more and if I agree with you I will give you more. It really is that simple
I throw the BS flag on this one. I have had insurance companies try every trick in the book. My favorite is "we haven't completed our investigation" when the other party was guiltier than sin, and -- my favorite -- if you don't go to our body shop you have to pay and then get reimbursed by us (implicitly "at our leisure.") "I am OK with that" has brought more than obe agent/adjuster/whatever to a screaming halt.
Insurance companies want to pay as little as possible -- that's OK. But insured and victims especially need to know their rights. The words "bad faith" go a LONG way in getting calls answered when the company is clearly dragging their feet and low-balling their "appraisals."
Sorry, buddy, but in the real world where the rest of us live, that is what really has happened. And more than once with pretty much every insurance company I have ever dealt with. At one point I had to sue my own company for an uninsured motorist claim -- I, of course, killed them in arbitration. But the fact we even had to go there belies your "we don't rely on the ignorance" assertion.
I agree 100% and love the fact that you are an educated consumer.
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Never heard of an offer of $12/day for rental. As a claimant you are entitled to be placed in a comparable vehicle to the one involved in the accident. So you aren't getting a Cadillac Escalade if you own an Escort.
Well actually it's called "loss of use" and there is a money value put on it...if the claimant wishes to rent a car with that money, it is up to them...
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Uh Rob, honestly -- that is some bizarre posts there that I really shouldn't polute the thread with by responding.
1) The insurance carrier guarantees the repairs in the sense that if they are faulty they will pay to have the repairs done again.
2) The insurance carrier doesn't set the rate, never said that. RIF. I said that the appraiser writes for the rate. The insurance carrier pays the appraisal. If a higher rate is necessary from what the appraiser wrote for the adjuster must speak with the appraiser to clear this, or they must seek approval by a staff appraiser -- either way, the increase has to be written for by a licensed appraiser in that state.... and why yes, autobody shops do accept that industry standard rate as accidents are their bread and butter. They want business to stay in business? then they accept what the industry standard is.
3) That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
4) Loss of use may be the term they use in IL, however, in general terms the at fault party is responsible for puting the claimant in a comparable vehicle while their vehicle is being repared (actually, it is based on the # of labor hours written for on the appraisal, 4 hours a day of work on the vehicle, factor in weekends, and time to get parts and you get a number of days they can be in the rental). While some carriers may cut a check for whatever figure that represents, I caution people to have the carrier actually pay the rental company so you are in the rental for the full time you need it. You accept a payment based on the original appraisal, then learn you vehicle needs a lot more work, or that a part will take a few weeks to come in -- you don't want to fight the carrier for more money, just have them pay the rental company directly.
Loss of use by the way is the term usually referred to for the downtime of a rental vehicle that was involved in an accident. Not only does the at fault party's carrier pay for repairs, they must also pay for the down time of the rental vehicle (or taxi, limo, etc).
Consumer beware indeed.
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Uh Rob, honestly -- that is some bizarre posts there that I really shouldn't polute the thread with by responding.
1) The insurance carrier guarantees the repairs in the sense that if they are faulty they will pay to have the repairs done again.
You crack me up...or they really did keep you in the dark? I have seen this many times before...it's not your fault and I have been on both sides!
I'm sorry, but the vehicle owner has always had recourse for "re-repairs"....even if it is not an insurance company's "selected shop"
I know you have heard of Wreck Check.
Re-repairs happen every day, body shops often have to buy back vehicles that have made a "total loss" due to improper repair...it scares me what is out on our highways...especially with ins urnace adjusters trying to make things look good on paper! I know how it works...
When an insurance company writes an estimate, that is simply a settlement offer in dollars. For some reason a body shop employee and adjuster agree to what the consumer is owed....without the consumers input...maybe the vehicle owner does not even want the car repaired, or can live with that scratch on the hood, and elects for only a partial repair due to a high deductable, etc...there are alot of situations...
Insurance companies should not be paying for repairs, they should be paying to make the claimant whole. Most shops never achieve anything even close to pre-loss condition. This is where diminished value comes in....but let's skip that discussion for now...another long topic!
In my shops the consumer/vehicle owner was presented a very accurate final bill on the shop's letterhead that fully details the repair....not simply a repair order that says "repair per insurance estimate sign here
There are still adjusters that try to cap paint and materials at $350, even for a complete! These adjusters are just doing what they are told, but do not fully understand the legal ramifications. By putting a cap on paint and materials, using a "one size fits all" method of adjusting a claim, the claim then no longer gets careful individual examination that is required by most state's dept of Insurance.
If you are interested check out the Illinois Collision Repair Act some time, it's very interesting.
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will imput the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper reapir authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechaical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
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If it sounds like this is a topic that makes my blood boil....that is true!
I have really seen some people get the shaft, including a young couple that both had major health problems, including cancer while they were just trying to get their car fixed right....I used to put my professional ass on the line for the consumer.
:-)
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Uh Rob, honestly -- that is some bizarre posts there that I really shouldn't polute the thread with by responding.
1) The insurance carrier guarantees the repairs in the sense that if they are faulty they will pay to have the repairs done again.
You crack me up...or they really did keep you in the dark? I have seen this many times before...it's not your fault and I have been on both sides!
I'm sorry, but the vehicle owner has always had recourse for "re-repairs"....even if it is not an insurance company's "selected shop"
I know you have heard of Wreck Check.
Re-repairs happen every day, body shops often have to buy back vehicles that have made a "total loss" due to improper repair...it scares me what is out on our highways...especially with ins urnace adjusters trying to make things look good on paper! I know how it works...I have even inspected and wrote damage appraisals for insurance companies where I have had to make it look good on paper...for years State Farm did not have a DRP shop in my little town and it was hard for them to get adjusters out there...they would pay me to write the sheet and often times this was a tear down inspection....I was and I am still very well respected in this industry. I was also the key person in a metro area for American Family...it was up to me if the loss was a total....they would spot check one every once in a while to make sure I was within their standards...
When an insurance company writes an estimate, that is simply a settlement offer in dollars. For some reason a body shop employee and adjuster agree to what the consumer is owed....without the consumers input...maybe the vehicle owner does not even want the car repaired, or can live with that scratch on the hood, and elects for only a partial repair due to a high deductable, etc...there are alot of situations...
Insurance companies should not be paying for repairs, they should be paying to make the claimant whole. Most shops never achieve anything even close to pre-loss condition. This is where diminished value comes in....but let's skip that discussion for now...another long topic!
In my shops the consumer/vehicle owner was presented a very accurate final bill on the shop's letterhead that fully details the repair....not simply a repair order that says "repair per insurance estimate sign here
There are still adjusters that try to cap paint and materials at $350, even for a complete! These adjusters are just doing what they are told, but do not fully understand the legal ramifications. By putting a cap on paint and materials, using a "one size fits all" method of adjusting a claim, the claim then no longer gets careful individual examination that is required by most state's dept of Insurance.
If you are interested check out the Illinois Collision Repair Act some time, it's very interesting.
If you are able to find a back issue of the March 2003 Body Shop Business Magazine you will see my picture and a "published article" so I just might know what I am talking about....but I have found many adjusters are simply green in some of these areas...and so are many shops....they are simply techs that decided to be business owners, and they know nothing about running a business...in fact they let insurance company labor rate surveys set their rates! I always billed in dollars, not hours...but once again that is another topic...
I have helped hundreds of customers out of bad repair situations everything from adjusters trying to simply pay to have a "door bar straightened" rather then a new door....to adjusters steering work to their own garage at home and tweeking the estimate to save the deductable! I have seen shops attempt to repair hail damage three or four times on a car with only 3000 miles...in which they ended up with a total loss on their hands...the consumer won in arbitration, the insurance company refused to pay the arbitrators award and I collected over $10,000 in tear down, admin and storage fees while all this was going on...and the customer continued to make payments on a car while their insurance carrier dicked them around...and this was a BIG insurance company that was all too familiar with state supreme courts....
I have enjoyed this discussion....thanks for keeping it real.
I have no idea where it is I am losing you in this conversation, but let's try again. The preferred shop list is a list that insurance carrier puts together of autobody shops in the state that pass pretty strict checklist of standards. If the claimant is not happy with the repairs, the insurance carrier will guarantee the repairs will be done again so they meet industry standards for repair. As I stated previously, getting an autobody shop who has completed pretty piss poor repairs to your vehicle to try to make it right can be a futile attempt. Accordingly, it's a nice guarantee to have.
You can do whatever you want with your damaged vehicle -- leave it in your garage, or sell it for parts. However, you want to file a claim then a licensed appraiser has to submit an appraisal of the damage -- that is pretty much defined in each state's regulations. The appraiser will write for what he can visually inspect so unless it is on a lift, or is in the process of being broken down by the shop, you are limited to what is visible for your appraisal amount. Unless the damage is minor, then supplemental appraisal are extremely common pratice. Now it would be nice to whine and point the finger at the insurance carrier as "dicking" their claimants around, but 9 out of 10 times the hold up is due to the autobody shop letting the car sit there for a week or so before they get to it, then they call the appraiser for the supplement, then they have to order the parts..... but but it's the adjuster that is making the claimant wait. Appraisers aren't sitting by the phone waiting for the shop to call. They make their rounds, and if you call on Tuesday and they were just in your area the day before, then you are waiting until they are in your area again to get out there to write the supplement. It's a circus, but it's the adjuster who gets the whining calls.
The whole total loss process? sometimes it is an easy call, the appraiser starts writing and once you reach that dollar figure that totals it then they are done, call it a day. Sometimes it isn't that simple, and I can see hail damage being a difficult one. It really is state reg dependent on what does and does not total a vehicle, so the insurance carrier has very little to do with that. Break down fees, storage, etc. -- it is all a part of the process, and believe me, our SIU (special investigation units) have piles of files with sleazy autobody shop antics on damage to vehicles on break downs. You would be amazed at the damage that is found when these shops break down a vehicle. :whatever:
Diminished value is something that is allowed in a handful of states. It usually is a % of the appraisal as a payout. You really don't see too much of it anymore.
I am adjuster -- or was an adjuster prior to having children. The important part of my job was the injury claim (s). The property damage claim was just the total PIA paper pushing portion. I am hardly green to the process, quite the opposite.
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will imput the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper reapir authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechaical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
Spend one day with a contracted appraiser, and he can tell you about the sleaze of the sleaze with regard to shops and mechanics. The insurance carrier I worked for had many dealers on their preferred list, and those dealers accepted industry standard rate for repairs (which 6 years ago was $32/hour for domestic vehicles). An appraiser that copies the estimate of an autobody shop should lose his license, and I would have no problem making that call.
There is a reason why insurance premiums are so high.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
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By all means exert your Rights. Even if exerting your rights costs 3 times as much as just fixing the damage on your own but by golly you didn't let anyone push you around you sure showed them who is boss. :whatever:
Doesn't cost me a freaking dime.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
That is who I have as well. So far, the process has been painless. *knocks on wood*
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.
I have no idea where it is I am losing you in this conversation, but let's try again. The preferred shop list is a list that insurance carrier puts together of autobody shops in the state that pass pretty strict checklist of standards. If the claimant is not happy with the repairs, the insurance carrier will guarantee the repairs will be done again so they meet industry standards for repair. As I stated previously, getting an autobody shop who has completed pretty piss poor repairs to your vehicle to try to make it right can be a futile attempt. Accordingly, it's a nice guarantee to have.
You can do whatever you want with your damaged vehicle -- leave it in your garage, or sell it for parts. However, you want to file a claim then a licensed appraiser has to submit an appraisal of the damage -- that is pretty much defined in each state's regulations. The appraiser will write for what he can visually inspect so unless it is on a lift, or is in the process of being broken down by the shop, you are limited to what is visible for your appraisal amount. Unless the damage is minor, then supplemental appraisal are extremely common pratice. Now it would be nice to whine and point the finger at the insurance carrier as "dicking" their claimants around, but 9 out of 10 times the hold up is due to the autobody shop letting the car sit there for a week or so before they get to it, then they call the appraiser for the supplement, then they have to order the parts..... but but it's the adjuster that is making the claimant wait. Appraisers aren't sitting by the phone waiting for the shop to call. They make their rounds, and if you call on Tuesday and they were just in your area the day before, then you are waiting until they are in your area again to get out there to write the supplement. It's a circus, but it's the adjuster who gets the whining calls.
The whole total loss process? sometimes it is an easy call, the appraiser starts writing and once you reach that dollar figure that totals it then they are done, call it a day. Sometimes it isn't that simple, and I can see hail damage being a difficult one. It really is state reg dependent on what does and does not total a vehicle, so the insurance carrier has very little to do with that. Break down fees, storage, etc. -- it is all a part of the process, and believe me, our SIU (special investigation units) have piles of files with sleazy autobody shop antics on damage to vehicles on break downs. You would be amazed at the damage that is found when these shops break down a vehicle. :whatever:
Diminished value is something that is allowed in a handful of states. It usually is a % of the appraisal as a payout. You really don't see too much of it anymore.
I am adjuster -- or was an adjuster prior to having children. The important part of my job was the injury claim (s). The property damage claim was just the total PIA paper pushing portion. I am hardly green to the process, quite the opposite.
If you want to keep repeating yourself rather then answer my questions that is fine.
So you were not a property damage adjuster? Or did you just not work out in the field?
Then I doubt you actually seen the things I am talking about. I can understand that. Alot has changed in six years, that is for sure.
I know how an estimate works, including tear down, etc...remember when everyone used to think they needed to get two estimates? On thousands of repairs, my estimate was the only one used, either by the vehcile owner, or the insurance company. Like I said, every state is different. I also was very well trusted in the community and industry. We did the repair right and that often meant a more expensive repair then the "other guys"
I have never installed or had any trouble getting paid for anything but OEM parts either, but that is another topic. I am sure you know adjsuters that write "after market parts"
This discussion is wearing me out, and is too much like work....
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will input the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper repair authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechanical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
Spend one day with a contracted appraiser, and he can tell you about the sleaze of the sleaze with regard to shops and mechanics. The insurance carrier I worked for had many dealers on their preferred list, and those dealers accepted industry standard rate for repairs (which 6 years ago was $32/hour for domestic vehicles). An appraiser that copies the estimate of an autobody shop should lose his license, and I would have no problem making that call.
There is a reason why insurance premiums are so high.
Six years ago my shop rate was $50 in a small midwest town and the PCP set by State Farm was $48...how can you do work for $32 an hour and still pay your help.....I would of liked to inspected some of those repairs and see just what all those shops were really doing for their "insurance partners"....I love to audit final bills!
So now you want to blame body shops for insurance premiums being high? Whatever. Did you ever think the value of the cars have gone up on top of the risk?
The appraiser would copy my estimate as a guide, as my estimates were always very complete...its easier to input the numeric codes of each line (I had both ADP and Mitchell) then to try and figure out your handwritten notes when they got back to the office....I would have it all torn down so they could verify, etc....
I simply charged for what we repaired and did not charge for what we did not do....
If a customer can't trust the shop without an adjuster with them, why would they want to take the car there for repairs? :rotf:
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
That is who I have as well. So far, the process has been painless. *knocks on wood*
Glad to hear it!
Minor damage results in a simple claim!
You shouldn't have any trouble.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
And then you have Allstate owning Sterling Collision Centers and forcing all their claims through their shops.
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.
I have no idea where it is I am losing you in this conversation, but let's try again. The preferred shop list is a list that insurance carrier puts together of autobody shops in the state that pass pretty strict checklist of standards. If the claimant is not happy with the repairs, the insurance carrier will guarantee the repairs will be done again so they meet industry standards for repair. As I stated previously, getting an autobody shop who has completed pretty piss poor repairs to your vehicle to try to make it right can be a futile attempt. Accordingly, it's a nice guarantee to have.
You can do whatever you want with your damaged vehicle -- leave it in your garage, or sell it for parts. However, you want to file a claim then a licensed appraiser has to submit an appraisal of the damage -- that is pretty much defined in each state's regulations. The appraiser will write for what he can visually inspect so unless it is on a lift, or is in the process of being broken down by the shop, you are limited to what is visible for your appraisal amount. Unless the damage is minor, then supplemental appraisal are extremely common pratice. Now it would be nice to whine and point the finger at the insurance carrier as "dicking" their claimants around, but 9 out of 10 times the hold up is due to the autobody shop letting the car sit there for a week or so before they get to it, then they call the appraiser for the supplement, then they have to order the parts..... but but it's the adjuster that is making the claimant wait. Appraisers aren't sitting by the phone waiting for the shop to call. They make their rounds, and if you call on Tuesday and they were just in your area the day before, then you are waiting until they are in your area again to get out there to write the supplement. It's a circus, but it's the adjuster who gets the whining calls.
The whole total loss process? sometimes it is an easy call, the appraiser starts writing and once you reach that dollar figure that totals it then they are done, call it a day. Sometimes it isn't that simple, and I can see hail damage being a difficult one. It really is state reg dependent on what does and does not total a vehicle, so the insurance carrier has very little to do with that. Break down fees, storage, etc. -- it is all a part of the process, and believe me, our SIU (special investigation units) have piles of files with sleazy autobody shop antics on damage to vehicles on break downs. You would be amazed at the damage that is found when these shops break down a vehicle. :whatever:
Diminished value is something that is allowed in a handful of states. It usually is a % of the appraisal as a payout. You really don't see too much of it anymore.
I am adjuster -- or was an adjuster prior to having children. The important part of my job was the injury claim (s). The property damage claim was just the total PIA paper pushing portion. I am hardly green to the process, quite the opposite.
If you want to keep repeating yourself rather then answer my questions that is fine.
So you were not a property damage adjuster? Or did you just not work out in the field?
Then I doubt you actually seen the things I am talking about. I can understand that. Alot has changed in six years, that is for sure.
I know how an estimate works, including tear down, etc...remember when everyone used to think they needed to get two estimates? On thousands of repairs, my estimate was the only one used, either by the vehcile owner, or the insurance company. Like I said, every state is different. I also was very well trusted in the community and industry. We did the repair right and that often meant a more expensive repair then the "other guys"
I have never installed or had any trouble getting paid for anything but OEM parts either, but that is another topic. I am sure you know adjsuters that write "after market parts"
This discussion is wearing me out, and is too much like work....
Well if you want to pay more for your insurance premiums than your car payment then by all means -- the appraiser should always write for OEM. :whatever:
Huge difference between salvage yard and aftermarket parts also -- the former is not written for on a two year old vehicle (this is from your other post). No idea what everyone is smoking in IL, but there is a profession that needs to be overhauled in your state.
Oh and I was a PD adjuster, which is the bottom of the totem pole in the insurance world. I moved on to casualty adjuster, which is the front line so to speak. Different worlds, but we get the process. We are the ones with checkbook, so it is kind of a requirement of the job.
ETA: Salvage yard part actually equating to a used OEM by the way.
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State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
They spend a lot of time in court? for property damage claims?
:lmao:
:rotf:
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will input the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper repair authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechanical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
Spend one day with a contracted appraiser, and he can tell you about the sleaze of the sleaze with regard to shops and mechanics. The insurance carrier I worked for had many dealers on their preferred list, and those dealers accepted industry standard rate for repairs (which 6 years ago was $32/hour for domestic vehicles). An appraiser that copies the estimate of an autobody shop should lose his license, and I would have no problem making that call.
There is a reason why insurance premiums are so high.
Six years ago my shop rate was $50 in a small midwest town and the PCP set by State Farm was $48...how can you do work for $32 an hour and still pay your help.....I would of liked to inspected some of those repairs and see just what all those shops were really doing for their "insurance partners"....I love to audit final bills!
So now you want to blame body shops for insurance premiums being high? Whatever. Did you ever think the value of the cars have gone up on top of the risk?
The appraiser would copy my estimate as a guide, as my estimates were always very complete...its easier to input the numeric codes of each line (I had both ADP and Mitchell) then to try and figure out your handwritten notes when they got back to the office....I would have it all torn down so they could verify, etc....
I simply charged for what we repaired and did not charge for what we did not do....
If a customer can't trust the shop without an adjuster with them, why would they want to take the car there for repairs? :rotf:
I think I would have laughed myself sick if I got a a/b shop demanding $50/hour for labor (as would the appraiser). The shops in MA actually all took that rate, again it was a few years back and I am sure it has increased since then
Six years ago in MA appraisers had a nice computer program on their laptops which would require them to designate the area of the vehicle damaged and the program would spit out the repair list, search and locate the parts and pricing, and provide a generous allotment for labor time to repair the vehicle. No need to take any estimate from an autobody shop, no matter how detailed it was thanks. I guess the appraisers in IL still travel around in a horse and buggy too. :lmao:
I am glad you are an honest autobody shop, however autobody shops are hardly strong armed to be on insurance carrier's preferred list, they don't even have to apply.....and if you feel that the insurance carrier uses mob tactics then pick up the phone and call their boss -- your state's insurance commissioner, who I can assure you is most unforgiving for carriers who process claims in bad faith and in an unethical manner.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
And then you have Allstate owning Sterling Collision Centers and forcing all their claims through their shops.
I would want to see the stats on repairs for their customers before commenting if this is a bad idea to purchase collision centers. If the purchase equates to quicker turnaround times on repairs then they did it for customer service reasons, and certainly as a good business decision as they are taking another piece of the auto accident market. I can't fault them for that.
That said, they must proceed with caution on how they present these centers to claimants. Forcing them to their shop is certainly a conflict that could and would be deemed as bad faith business practices. In that regard I don't know if it is worth the risk.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
And then you have Allstate owning Sterling Collision Centers and forcing all their claims through their shops.
I would want to see the stats on repairs for their customers before commenting if this is a bad idea to purchase collision centers. If the purchase equates to quicker turnaround times on repairs then they did it for customer service reasons, and certainly as a good business decision as they are taking another piece of the auto accident market. I can't fault them for that.
That said, they must proceed with caution on how they present these centers to claimants. Forcing them to their shop is certainly a conflict that could and would be deemed as bad faith business practices. In that regard I don't know if it is worth the risk.
Look up the case, it went to the Texas Supreme Court and was decided this year. Allstate is going to have to sell Sterling, I believe. It's been a month or two since I've seen a report on them. That was the gist of the complaint, Allstate was forcing their customers to use Sterling for their repairs.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
And then you have Allstate owning Sterling Collision Centers and forcing all their claims through their shops.
I would want to see the stats on repairs for their customers before commenting if this is a bad idea to purchase collision centers. If the purchase equates to quicker turnaround times on repairs then they did it for customer service reasons, and certainly as a good business decision as they are taking another piece of the auto accident market. I can't fault them for that.
That said, they must proceed with caution on how they present these centers to claimants. Forcing them to their shop is certainly a conflict that could and would be deemed as bad faith business practices. In that regard I don't know if it is worth the risk.
Look up the case, it went to the Texas Supreme Court and was decided this year. Allstate is going to have to sell Sterling, I believe. It's been a month or two since I've seen a report on them. That was the gist of the complaint, Allstate was forcing their customers to use Sterling for their repairs.
Looks like some idiot VP got greedy or just plain stupid. This is one of those when theory meets practice disasters that they should have learned about in business 101.
I will look up the case though, thanks for the info.
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
And then you have Allstate owning Sterling Collision Centers and forcing all their claims through their shops.
Very true! Hi5 for Miss Mia!
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State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
They spend a lot of time in court? for property damage claims?
:lmao:
:rotf:
I have a feeling you never left the office.
State Farm was in a twenty year battle over aftermarket parts and consumer fraud.
Ever hear of Senator Trent Lott (R)......and Katrina?
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will input the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper repair authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechanical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
Spend one day with a contracted appraiser, and he can tell you about the sleaze of the sleaze with regard to shops and mechanics. The insurance carrier I worked for had many dealers on their preferred list, and those dealers accepted industry standard rate for repairs (which 6 years ago was $32/hour for domestic vehicles). An appraiser that copies the estimate of an autobody shop should lose his license, and I would have no problem making that call.
There is a reason why insurance premiums are so high.
Six years ago my shop rate was $50 in a small midwest town and the PCP set by State Farm was $48...how can you do work for $32 an hour and still pay your help.....I would of liked to inspected some of those repairs and see just what all those shops were really doing for their "insurance partners"....I love to audit final bills!
So now you want to blame body shops for insurance premiums being high? Whatever. Did you ever think the value of the cars have gone up on top of the risk?
The appraiser would copy my estimate as a guide, as my estimates were always very complete...its easier to input the numeric codes of each line (I had both ADP and Mitchell) then to try and figure out your handwritten notes when they got back to the office....I would have it all torn down so they could verify, etc....
I simply charged for what we repaired and did not charge for what we did not do....
If a customer can't trust the shop without an adjuster with them, why would they want to take the car there for repairs? :rotf:
I think I would have laughed myself sick if I got a a/b shop demanding $50/hour for labor (as would the appraiser). The shops in MA actually all took that rate, again it was a few years back and I am sure it has increased since then
Six years ago in MA appraisers had a nice computer program on their laptops which would require them to designate the area of the vehicle damaged and the program would spit out the repair list, search and locate the parts and pricing, and provide a generous allotment for labor time to repair the vehicle. No need to take any estimate from an autobody shop, no matter how detailed it was thanks. I guess the appraisers in IL still travel around in a horse and buggy too. :lmao:
I am glad you are an honest autobody shop, however autobody shops are hardly strong armed to be on insurance carrier's preferred list, they don't even have to apply.....and if you feel that the insurance carrier uses mob tactics then pick up the phone and call their boss -- your state's insurance commissioner, who I can assure you is most unforgiving for carriers who process claims in bad faith and in an unethical manner.
It's alot higher then $50 now.
Laugh all you want...shops in Bloomington, IL (You know the home of State Farm, and others) are way above that as well now....what do you pay an electrical contractor, or plumbing contractor...ever taken a car to a mechanical shop?
It's all about Body Shop owners taking back control and running the shops like a business. Appraisers used to write "funny times" to make up for the low rate, but if you have never wrote an estimate, you would not know about this and the other things I am talking about.
As far as your comment about adjusters being back in the "horse and buggy days" once again you simply have no clue...these were guys from Crawford and Company, PDA and others, that had many cars to inspect in one day...and it was easier to write the sheet from the office then to fumble with a laptop in the car especially with the sun glare. On top of there is a little more to it then a computer that just "spits out" a repair list....LOL
Yes, there is an application process for more then one insurance company DRP (direct repair program) out there....I'm just not finding alot of truth within your posts. In fact I know several guys from the MABA (MA Auto Body Association) that might enjoy reading your posts! In fact, last I checked Direct Repair Programs were still not legal in MA....so I am not sure what "insurance shops" you are talking about....
http://www.massautobody.org/
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I think I would have laughed myself sick if I got a a/b shop demanding $50/hour for labor (as would the appraiser). The shops in MA actually all took that rate, again it was a few years back and I am sure it has increased since then
Six years ago in MA appraisers had a nice computer program on their laptops which would require them to designate the area of the vehicle damaged and the program would spit out the repair list, search and locate the parts and pricing, and provide a generous allotment for labor time to repair the vehicle. No need to take any estimate from an autobody shop, no matter how detailed it was thanks. I guess the appraisers in IL still travel around in a horse and buggy too. :lmao:
I am glad you are an honest autobody shop, however autobody shops are hardly strong armed to be on insurance carrier's preferred list, they don't even have to apply.....and if you feel that the insurance carrier uses mob tactics then pick up the phone and call their boss -- your state's insurance commissioner, who I can assure you is most unforgiving for carriers who process claims in bad faith and in an unethical manner.
It's alot higher then $50 now.
Laugh all you want...shops in Bloomington, IL (You know the home of State Farm, and others) are way above that as well now....what do you pay a plumber ro computer tech? $32 an hour? :rotf:
It's all about Body Shop owners taking back control and running the shops like a business. Appraisers used to write "funny times" to make up for the low rate, but if you have never wrote an estimate, you would not know about this and the other things I am talking about.
Enjoy your day!
If you can find a body shop in Los Angeles that will bill for as little as $50 an hour, I will buy them, sight unseen, and bill at prevailing rates and retire a multi-millionaire in a year or 2.
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Well if you want to pay more for your insurance premiums than your car payment then by all means -- the appraiser should always write for OEM. :whatever:
Huge difference between salvage yard and aftermarket parts also -- the former is not written for on a two year old vehicle (this is from your other post). No idea what everyone is smoking in IL, but there is a profession that needs to be overhauled in your state.
So adjusters do try to save the insurance company money by writing the use of aftermarket, non-OEM parts, you know the ones made in China that have poor fit and corrosion resistance? The shop carries the liability if these parts fail. As long as the hood does not fly open due to weak spot welds when you are going down the highway, every thing should be ok right?
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
I take my car to the dealership for body repairs; that way I know they are not using shitty parts because they have to show me a detailed billing of original parts. BTW, if State Farm is ok. Who is better?
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My experience with insurance companies and adjusters has been a good one. My insurer is State Farm which may explain that. I think when you go with the best, you get good service. I have had several accidents and never had a problem with getting my vehicle fixed at a non-preferred body shop.
I was a preferred shop for three carriers at a dealership....most of them do a good job....but when you won't play the game....its like dealing with the mob, and you soon find yourself kicked off. They direct repair programs want you to cut costs on "their repairs" and don't care how or where you make it up....that is the problem....
For example, I know a shop that would not use salvage yard parts on two year old cars...so guess what...off the program!
State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
I take my car to the dealership for body repairs; that way I know they are not using shitty parts because they have to show me a detailed billing of original parts. BTW, if State Farm is ok. Who is better?
Good move with the dealership....it's always good to ask for that final bill. Some dealerships do use a/market parts...at the direction of the insurance company....or try to use, then the parts dont fit, which creates delays in the repair...
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and if you feel that the insurance carrier uses mob tactics then pick up the phone and call their boss -- your state's insurance commissioner, who I can assure you is most unforgiving for carriers who process claims in bad faith and in an unethical manner.
Now that is funny......most DOI's are full of ex-insurance company employees!
Hopefully everyone always has smooth claims or repair processes....but if you ever have any questions or concerns, I am easy to find.
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State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
They spend a lot of time in court? for property damage claims?
:lmao:
:rotf:
I have a feeling you never left the office.
State Farm was in a twenty year battle over aftermarket parts and consumer fraud.
Ever hear of Senator Trent Lott (R)......and Katrina?
I testified in three insurance fraud cases, two of which sent the attorneys to jail.
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That is nice you throw the appraisal in the trash. Let's place a nice twist on this. Say joe consumer needs some autobody work done on his vehicle that he will pay for out of pocket -- no insurance companies involved. He should 100% trust the guy at the autobody shop (or mechanic for that matter) that whatever is written on the "estimate" as final. We all know that autobody shops and mechanics are the most ethical profession around, and we should never questions and always accept their estimates and labor rates. <---- seriously?!!!! A licensed appraiser can only write for visual damage. If the vehice is broken down in front of him he can keep writing. You find more damage, you call for a supplemental appraisal. This isn't rocket science.
Like I said, there are good appraisers out there, that simply write and agree with the shop's opinion. Many simply copy the shop's sheet! Just like if I know the appriser is good, I will input the same lines on my sheet and double check everything...in most states the estimate has to be on the shop's letterhead for a proper repair authorization...of course this is not always obeyed.
An insurance guy calling a mechanical or body shop unethical? Pot? Kettle? Let's not go there! I think most consumers are able to shop around and find a shop they are comfortable with, mechanical or body.....in fact, I have a feeling these insurance company "labor surveys" are what keeps the rates down and the fraud up! Body rates are lets say $38...and mechanical at the same deaership might be $80...why is this? Most guys I know set their own rates and have no troubles getting paid...profit is a good thing!
Spend one day with a contracted appraiser, and he can tell you about the sleaze of the sleaze with regard to shops and mechanics. The insurance carrier I worked for had many dealers on their preferred list, and those dealers accepted industry standard rate for repairs (which 6 years ago was $32/hour for domestic vehicles). An appraiser that copies the estimate of an autobody shop should lose his license, and I would have no problem making that call.
There is a reason why insurance premiums are so high.
Six years ago my shop rate was $50 in a small midwest town and the PCP set by State Farm was $48...how can you do work for $32 an hour and still pay your help.....I would of liked to inspected some of those repairs and see just what all those shops were really doing for their "insurance partners"....I love to audit final bills!
So now you want to blame body shops for insurance premiums being high? Whatever. Did you ever think the value of the cars have gone up on top of the risk?
The appraiser would copy my estimate as a guide, as my estimates were always very complete...its easier to input the numeric codes of each line (I had both ADP and Mitchell) then to try and figure out your handwritten notes when they got back to the office....I would have it all torn down so they could verify, etc....
I simply charged for what we repaired and did not charge for what we did not do....
If a customer can't trust the shop without an adjuster with them, why would they want to take the car there for repairs? :rotf:
I think I would have laughed myself sick if I got a a/b shop demanding $50/hour for labor (as would the appraiser). The shops in MA actually all took that rate, again it was a few years back and I am sure it has increased since then
Six years ago in MA appraisers had a nice computer program on their laptops which would require them to designate the area of the vehicle damaged and the program would spit out the repair list, search and locate the parts and pricing, and provide a generous allotment for labor time to repair the vehicle. No need to take any estimate from an autobody shop, no matter how detailed it was thanks. I guess the appraisers in IL still travel around in a horse and buggy too. :lmao:
I am glad you are an honest autobody shop, however autobody shops are hardly strong armed to be on insurance carrier's preferred list, they don't even have to apply.....and if you feel that the insurance carrier uses mob tactics then pick up the phone and call their boss -- your state's insurance commissioner, who I can assure you is most unforgiving for carriers who process claims in bad faith and in an unethical manner.
It's alot higher then $50 now.
Laugh all you want...shops in Bloomington, IL (You know the home of State Farm, and others) are way above that as well now....what do you pay an electrical contractor, or plumbing contractor...ever taken a car to a mechanical shop?
It's all about Body Shop owners taking back control and running the shops like a business. Appraisers used to write "funny times" to make up for the low rate, but if you have never wrote an estimate, you would not know about this and the other things I am talking about.
As far as your comment about adjusters being back in the "horse and buggy days" once again you simply have no clue...these were guys from Crawford and Company, PDA and others, that had many cars to inspect in one day...and it was easier to write the sheet from the office then to fumble with a laptop in the car especially with the sun glare. On top of there is a little more to it then a computer that just "spits out" a repair list....LOL
Yes, there is an application process for more then one insurance company DRP (direct repair program) out there....I'm just not finding alot of truth within your posts. In fact I know several guys from the MABA (MA Auto Body Association) that might enjoy reading your posts! In fact, last I checked Direct Repair Programs were still not legal in MA....so I am not sure what "insurance shops" you are talking about....
http://www.massautobody.org/
Again, RIF. I never said or inferred that MA has insurance shops. We provide a list of preferred shops, the claimant uses one on the list or not. They sign direct payment, we pay them directly.
From you link:
Preferred or referral repair shops represent the insurance company in both negotiations and the repair of the vehicle. They contract with insurance companies regarding the repairs, the costs and the repair procedures. The insurance company sets the rules and the repair shop simply follows them to keep the insurance company's costs down. But the cost reduction has to come from somewhere. It may affect the quality and thoroughness of the repair service and/or the quality and condition of the parts used. You have paid your insurance premiums with the expectation of receiving safe and proper repairs – not cheap repairs.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. This is the biggest crock of scare tactic bullshit I have ever read. The autobody shop does not work for the insurance carrier, and never at any time bows to them. To be on the preferred list they agree to 1) repair vehicles in a timely fashion; 2) do it for the appraisal amount (meaning no hidden bullshit costs that an insurance carrier would never pay, gee -- an autobody shop would never do anything unethical would they in pricing....) and 3) the vehicles they repair must pass pretty strict standards when the carrier reinspects them (which they do). This is a business. They want a lot business from accidents, then they become a preferred shop. No one is twisting their arm, and if they choose to "make up" profit by doing a piss poor job then they won't be staying on the preferred shop list long as their repairs will not pass reinspection AND the work there is guaranteed by the carrier, and the insurance carrier would not be too pleased with paying appraisals twice.
Hmmm, Crawford and Company is an independent appraisal firm -- I thought you said these are all insurance carrier hacks? I am so confused. They carbon copy an estimate then they should lose their license, and you should be reporting them. You, or someone in your shop, should be a licensed appraiser also. Play with fire long enough, screw over the wrong person, and then you risk kissing it goodbye.
From your state's insurance commissioner's site:
May I Choose My Own Repair Shop?
Yes. You are not required to use your company's suggested repair shop. However, if your repair shop charges more than the company's suggested shop, you may have to pay the difference.
Can My Insurance Company Deduct for "Betterment"?
Yes. If your vehicle is being repaired with newer parts, your company doesn't have to pay for the "betterment." For example, if your vehicle's muffler is five years old, your insurance company would have to replace it with a five-year old muffler. If a five-year old muffler can't be found, the repair shop could use a new muffler, but you'd have to pay the difference.
Can My Insurance Company Deduct for Things Like Unrepaired Damage or Rust?
Yes. Your insurance company may deduct an unlimited amount from the value if your vehicle has old, unrepaired collision damages. They may also deduct an additional amount up to $500.00 for wear and tear, missing parts and rust. Your company must itemize and specify the dollar amounts of those deductions.
Do I Have to Accept Replacement Crash Parts?
No. Although insurance companies aren't required to use original equipment manufacturer (OEM) replacement parts, such as GM or Ford, you have the final choice of which parts will be used to fix your vehicle. However, if your company wants to use non-OEM parts, and you request more expensive OEM parts, you may have to pay the difference.
http://www.idfpr.com/DOI/autoinsurance/auto_own_claim.asp
Oh my. I guess everyone is out to screw the poor autobody shop and claimant aren't they?
:whatever:
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Well if you want to pay more for your insurance premiums than your car payment then by all means -- the appraiser should always write for OEM. :whatever:
Huge difference between salvage yard and aftermarket parts also -- the former is not written for on a two year old vehicle (this is from your other post). No idea what everyone is smoking in IL, but there is a profession that needs to be overhauled in your state.
So adjusters do try to save the insurance company money by writing the use of aftermarket, non-OEM parts, you know the ones made in China that have poor fit and corrosion resistance? The shop carries the liability if these parts fail. As long as the hood does not fly open due to weak spot welds when you are going down the highway, every thing should be ok right?
Same along the lines of generic Rx drugs rights? Sorry, unless the vehicle is a year or less old then aftermarket it is unless it is a safety item. Like health insurance, you could not afford auto insurance if OEM parts were written for as standard.
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“Good Hands†Slapped — US Supreme Court Tells Allstate “Nay†(http://www.vehicleinfo.com/AutoMuse/?p=342)
-snip-
The district court decision found that Allstate actively referred unsuspecting claimants to its Sterling shops — even when those shops were providing poor service and some were given failing marks by Allstate’s own surveys. Yet, Allstate had a financial interest in making Sterling profitable, so claims representatives continued to shove insureds and third parties to the Sterling shops, many of whom naively patronized the collision repair facilities on Allstate’s recommendation. As a result, the court had no trouble appreciating the Texas Legislature’s concerns and desire to protect consumers.
-snip-
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Wow...
Interesting thread.
I think I have learned a thing or two.
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Well if you want to pay more for your insurance premiums than your car payment then by all means -- the appraiser should always write for OEM. :whatever:
Huge difference between salvage yard and aftermarket parts also -- the former is not written for on a two year old vehicle (this is from your other post). No idea what everyone is smoking in IL, but there is a profession that needs to be overhauled in your state.
So adjusters do try to save the insurance company money by writing the use of aftermarket, non-OEM parts, you know the ones made in China that have poor fit and corrosion resistance? The shop carries the liability if these parts fail. As long as the hood does not fly open due to weak spot welds when you are going down the highway, every thing should be ok right?
Same along the lines of generic Rx drugs rights? Sorry, unless the vehicle is a year or less old then aftermarket it is unless it is a safety item. Like health insurance, you could not afford auto insurance if OEM parts were written for as standard.
You pay insurance on a vehicle built with OEM parts.
Generic Drugs and Generic Parts are not the same, and you know it....keep beating your drum consumers know the truth. First off, I know of no Generic Drugs that are made in China....
You put aftermarket on a two year old vehicle that still has warranty on the rest of the car???? Sheet metal warranty on most new cars is 6/60000....
Aftermarket sheet metal parts are not even galvanized.......you really are not selling anyone on that "it will keep your rates down" :lmao:
It's pretty funny that State Farm uses no aftermarket sheet metal and everyone seems to be able to afford their rates...... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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Hmmm, Crawford and Company is an independent appraisal firm -- I thought you said these are all insurance carrier hacks? I am so confused. They carbon copy an estimate then they should lose their license, and you should be reporting them. You, or someone in your shop, should be a licensed appraiser also. Play with fire long enough, screw over the wrong person, and then you risk kissing it goodbye.
Crawford writes by following guidelines set by each individual carrier. Did you not read my post, or do you just like to twist things around? Like I said, they had many cars to look at, and would take a copy of my sheet back to the office with them. Once again, they carbon copy the estimate after they verify it is accurate.
In IL is it against the law to work off any estimate that is not on the shop's letterhead...as per the IL Collision Repair Act...(Public Act 093-0565) http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?name=093-0565 I don't know how you are used to doing things, but I am used to following state laws. This law actually protects consumers from both repair facilities and insruance companies....a vehcile owner even has to sign off on any supplements...it's their car and you need their authorizatrion...plain and simple.
Once again........THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LICENSED APPRAISERS IN ILLINOIS...... :banghead: :banghead: But I forgot, you know more about this then I do because I am just one of those unethical body shops.
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“Good Hands†Slapped — US Supreme Court Tells Allstate “Nay†(http://www.vehicleinfo.com/AutoMuse/?p=342)
-snip-
The district court decision found that Allstate actively referred unsuspecting claimants to its Sterling shops — even when those shops were providing poor service and some were given failing marks by Allstate’s own surveys. Yet, Allstate had a financial interest in making Sterling profitable, so claims representatives continued to shove insureds and third parties to the Sterling shops, many of whom naively patronized the collision repair facilities on Allstate’s recommendation. As a result, the court had no trouble appreciating the Texas Legislature’s concerns and desire to protect consumers.
-snip-
:-)
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State Farm is ok....they have spent alot of time in court! They are pretty good about letting you take it where you want to have it fixed.
They spend a lot of time in court? for property damage claims?
:lmao:
:rotf:
I have a feeling you never left the office.
State Farm was in a twenty year battle over aftermarket parts and consumer fraud.
Ever hear of Senator Trent Lott (R)......and Katrina?
I testified in three insurance fraud cases, two of which sent the attorneys to jail.
Now that would be fun. I had the opportunity to help send a lawyer to prison once and I cooperated to my fullest extent. He did not harm me as much as he ripped off some other folks. (Missing money in his trust)
Like I said before I am sure you did a great job for your company.
I know I did as well, just different sides of the fence.
I did such a good job that when the agency manager for Country Companies/Farm Bureau had an accident, he insisted that I was the guy to oversee the reapairs and I had to take off my tie and paint the vehicle for him....his wife was even more picky with her Lexus, but I was able to always keep him happy and coming back they had alot of wrecks/deer hits... particular customers like particular managers...on top of both of our State Farm Agents and their employees, a Pekin and Erie agent, the State Police, City Police and Sheriff Dept Employees...all wanted me to work on their cars for some reason....and we had five shops in town in competition with us...you don't get to that point by being fraudulent. My door rate was also the highest...quality is not free!
I do know one thing for sure, more and more people are paying out of pocket for repairs and others if it was not for insurance would not get the car fixed in the first place....so insurance is a necessary evil in the equation!
As for aftermarket parts...China did such a good job with crayons and our children's toys, we should trust them with crash parts as well?
I have enjoyed this debate, give those kids a hug!
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Well if you want to pay more for your insurance premiums than your car payment then by all means -- the appraiser should always write for OEM. :whatever:
Huge difference between salvage yard and aftermarket parts also -- the former is not written for on a two year old vehicle (this is from your other post). No idea what everyone is smoking in IL, but there is a profession that needs to be overhauled in your state.
So adjusters do try to save the insurance company money by writing the use of aftermarket, non-OEM parts, you know the ones made in China that have poor fit and corrosion resistance? The shop carries the liability if these parts fail. As long as the hood does not fly open due to weak spot welds when you are going down the highway, every thing should be ok right?
Same along the lines of generic Rx drugs rights? Sorry, unless the vehicle is a year or less old then aftermarket it is unless it is a safety item. Like health insurance, you could not afford auto insurance if OEM parts were written for as standard.
You pay insurance on a vehicle built with OEM parts.
Generic Drugs and Generic Parts are not the same, and you know it....keep beating your drum consumers know the truth. First off, I know of no Generic Drugs that are made in China....
You put aftermarket on a two year old vehicle that still has warranty on the rest of the car???? Sheet metal warranty on most new cars is 6/60000....
Aftermarket sheet metal parts are not even galvanized.......you really are not selling anyone on that "it will keep your rates down" :lmao:
It's pretty funny that State Farm uses no aftermarket sheet metal and everyone seems to be able to afford their rates...... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
You pay insurance on the age of the vehice you own. Read the definition of betterment and you will understand the difference. OEM parts are extremely expensive, and unnecessary for the most part. You want them then pay betterment and you will get them.
There are no licensed appraisers in IL? HAHAHA, well that explains a great deal then. Nevermind.
State Farm -- you mean this case?
Illinois Supreme Court Overturns $1 Billion State Farm Judgment
Consumer Advocates See It As A Bad Omen for Other Class Action Cases
The Illinois Suprme Court has thrown out a $1 billion class action judgment against State Farm Insurance over the use of so-called aftermarket auto parts for repairs.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/il_state_farm.html
The nation's No. 1 auto insurer, State Farm outlined three specific reasons for its appeal. First, the company's auto crash-parts costs were $4.8 million more than it expected in November 1999, which was the first full month after State Farm announced it was suspending the use of aftermarket crash parts. State Farm claims that costs will go even higher in the future.
I clicked out of this article before capturing the link, but this was from 2000 -- Ia not an actuary so I cannot give you the ramifications of this significant increase in costs as it relates to premium increase, but I can imagine the increase was significant (if they are still doing it).
Someone in the thread had asked which insurance carrier is the best, I would have to reply that USAA is. Been with them for 20 years I think it is now and never have had a problem. Customer service is always top notch.
I need a break from this thread. Property Damage claims bore me to absolute tears. :yawn:
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CAPA oversees aftermarket parts don't they? Honestly, I have to stop thinking about this stuff. BAAAAAAH!!!
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CAPA oversees aftermarket parts don't they? Honestly, I have to stop thinking about this stuff. BAAAAAAH!!!
CAPA is owned by insurance companies. Enough said.
OEM parts are necessary, especially if you car is still under factory warranty. You could actually void your warranty.