Senator John McCain dead at 81

[J P Sousa]

Aw, geez! Is that article now the current version of this conspiracy theory, a "light" version?

When, in a space of 2-3 minutes one goes from preparing to launch to a rocket going off in your midst to escaping from one's plane one's memory is not likely to be very precise. Why the hostility of reading intentional exaggeration into McCain's account?

McCain had to scramble over the nose of his A-4, in full flight suit. Why the hostility of snarking about the much encumbered McCain not joining the trained damage control people.

Further, McCain managed to escape his jet and got clear of the area before the bomb exploded. IOW, McCain left fighting the fire to the properly trained damage control people. This Conspiracy Light article implies that McCain left his plane after the bomb explosion in asking why he didn't immediately join the untrained personnel's efforts to fight the fire. Why the deceptive snark?

As for McCain's supposed haste to leave the Forrestal, pretty much all the aviation personnel left the ship fairly quickly. When it came to enabling the Forrestal to get out of the combat area and heading to the States for repairs, the aviation personnel would have been encumbrances that consumed food. Further, their skills were needed in the ongoing campaign. The article notes McCain requested transfer to the USS Oriskany, in other words, back to the combat where his skills would be used. What's with the article's haste to spin common sense actions to get back into combat into something sort of like cowardice?

Whether the version of this conspiracy theory which had the rocket coming from McCain's plane, or the version in which McCain's start of his jet engines started the fire, or now this version that tries to make McCain a coward, all three have three things in common:

* They are false and so badly concocted that they cannot withstand fact-checking plus cursory critical thought;

* They are rooted in irrational hatred rather than fact;

* They dishonor the men who died that day by trying to twist their sacrifice into a hate-driven false attacks on John McCain.

Pete, I don't think you read the entire article.
I was NOT trying to continue any McCain bashing, or conspiracies but rather linked the article for people to get a better picture of McCain.

I highlighted a phrase you put in your reply; "McCain left fighting the fire to the properly trained damage control people."

In fact the article states;

Whatever the circumstances of the fire’s origins, McCain did not stay on deck to help fight the blaze as the men around him did.
With the firefighting crew virtually wiped out, men untrained in fighting fires had to pick up the fire hoses, rescue the wounded or frantically throw bombs and even planes over the ship’s side to prevent further tragedy.

Another part of the article I thought interesting was;

Aside from any questions about his Forrestal actions, McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”

The article SEEMS well sourced with many quotes. Believe or not there were questions about McCain's character.

[DumbAss Tanker]

My understanding is that significant changes were made to carrier damage/fire control doctrine after the USS Forrestal fire, from training specialists to training widely among crew. And that this change was because of the team of specialists being more or less wiped out by that first bomb explosion.

One of the minor uncertainties as to what exactly ignited the fire is that in the process of tearing open the A-4 fuel tank and unshackling the bomb, the Zuni rocket broke apart. So the fire might have been ignited by rocket motor exhaust or hot fragments. Similarly, it is possible that McCain's A-4 was struck by a fragment of the Zuni.

There was some sort of video camera monitoring deck operations. Evidently it had the resolution necessary to discern which plane the Zuni struck first. But whether it had adequate resolution and frame rate to analyze the progress of events in good detail is doubtful (if the normal NTSC video of that time, the frame rate would be 30 per second; the persistence of the image orthicon camera tube might also affect the quality of captured video).

Little known fact, flight operations are routinely filmed on carrier decks, a policy that goes back to WWII.  Both a training and accident investigation thing.

[Ptarmigan]

Little known fact, flight operations are routinely filmed on carrier decks, a policy that goes back to WWII.  Both a training and accident investigation thing.

Very interesting.

[SVPete]

Aside from any questions about his Forrestal actions, McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”

Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.

As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".

[Eupher]

Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.

As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".

I've caught a lot of the back-and-forth in this discussion and in other places concerning the Forrestal, plus I read the book a couple of decades ago The Nightingale's Song, an account of 5 graduates of the Naval Academy, McCain being one of them.

What I remember from having read that book is the flippant disregard that McCain had toward people, the incessant shenanigans he pulled, and how he interacted with others. To say that he was immature is putting it mildly.

The ring-knocker's club in the Naval Academy with Daddy being an influential flag officer of high rank just possibly might fit into this equation.

[SVPete]

I've caught a lot of the back-and-forth in this discussion and in other places concerning the Forrestal, plus I read the book a couple of decades ago The Nightingale's Song, an account of 5 graduates of the Naval Academy, McCain being one of them.

What I remember from having read that book is the flippant disregard that McCain had toward people, the incessant shenanigans he pulled, and how he interacted with others. To say that he was immature is putting it mildly.

The ring-knocker's club in the Naval Academy with Daddy being an influential flag officer of high rank just possibly might fit into this equation.

All true, and John McCain III was just a few midshipmen above the "Anchor Man". Were this a discussion of the last 18 years or so of John McCain's crap, all that would be relevant. But with regard to the fire on the USS Forrestal, all McCain's immaturity does not change simple facts:

* McCain was a member of an active airgroup;

* The Zuni rocket, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 1.0 came from an F-4, not John McCain's A-4;

* The exhaust and/or hot fragments from the Zuni ignited the leaking fuel, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 2.0;

* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, the bomb had not exploded, and specially trained personnel were fighting the fire, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;

* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, he was encumbered by his flight gear, making going back immediately after the explosion an irrational, useless move, again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;

* John McCain immediately volunteered for and was transferred to USS Oriskany, indicating that McCain's safety, performance, and courage were not in question, yet again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0

I get that people hate John McCain III. False accusations, like the three versions of this stupid conspiracy theory, just make those making the false accusations look stupid and irrationally vindictive. And, as I posted above, dishonors those who died in the fire.

[Eupher]

All true, and John McCain III was just a few midshipmen above the "Anchor Man". Were this a discussion of the last 18 years or so of John McCain's crap, all that would be relevant. But with regard to the fire on the USS Forrestal, all McCain's immaturity does not change simple facts:

* McCain was a member of an active airgroup;

* The Zuni rocket, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 1.0 came from an F-4, not John McCain's A-4;

* The exhaust and/or hot fragments from the Zuni ignited the leaking fuel, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 2.0;

* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, the bomb had not exploded, and specially trained personnel were fighting the fire, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;

* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, he was encumbered by his flight gear, making going back immediately after the explosion an irrational, useless move, again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;

* John McCain immediately volunteered for and was transferred to USS Oriskany, indicating that McCain's safety, performance, and courage were not in question, yet again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0

I get that people hate John McCain III. False accusations, like the three versions of this stupid conspiracy theory, just make those making the false accusations look stupid and irrationally vindictive. And, as I posted above, dishonors those who died in the fire.

A Lieutenant Commander in the Navy is "just a few midshipment above the "Anchor Man?"

Not disputing your statements about the Zuni rocket, where it came from, what it did when the electrical glitch fired it, and whether or not it hit McCain's A-4.

I guess even chumps like McCain do the right thing once in a while -- in his case, he got out of his aircraft and made it to safety while Dollarhide lay prostrate on the deck with a broken hip. OK, let's assume that McCain didn't see Dollarhide through all the smoke and flames. But then he flies out to Saigon to meet with the NY Times reporter RW Apple and becomes a PR officer. Doesn't bother attending the memorial services held on the Forrestal.

What kind of selfish creep does that?

OK, then he figures out he's got only 5 missions under his belt and decides he's going to be Johnny Hero by flying off the Oriskany.

Sounds like ticket-punching to me.

For me, it isn't the actual event on the Forrestal that bothers me about McCain. It's all the other crap before and after that is the mark of a punk who didn't get his ass handed to him often enough.

[SVPete]

A Lieutenant Commander in the Navy is "just a few midshipment above the "Anchor Man?"
...
OK, then he figures out he's got only 5 missions under his belt and decides he's going to be Johnny Hero by flying off the Oriskany.

Sounds like ticket-punching to me.
...

US Naval Academy students are called midshipmen; the "Anchor Man" in any USNA class is the graduate with the lowest rating, based on grades, military performance, and other factors. It's not an honor, but evidently some "anchors" went on to become Admirals.

Requesting transfer to combat duty on a carrier conducting combat missions is "ticket-punching"? I must not understand that obviously derogatory term correctly.

[Eupher]

US Naval Academy students are called midshipmen; the "Anchor Man" in any USNA class is the graduate with the lowest rating, based on grades, military performance, and other factors. It's not an honor, but evidently some "anchors" went on to become Admirals.

Thanks. I wasn't familiar with the term "Anchor Man" but I did know what midshipmen are.

Requesting transfer to combat duty on a carrier conducting combat missions is "ticket-punching"? I must not understand that obviously derogatory term correctly.

You've never heard of some officers who would seek (and get) an assignment to Vietnam for 30 days, just to become eligible for the Vietnam Service Medal? Not saying that characterized McCain as he was already in-country on board the Forrestal. But he was new having had only 5 combat missions under his belt. He clearly wanted more. And he definitely got more - probably more than he bargained for.

Ticket-punching is as old as the hills.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.

As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".

Yeah, I don't think you really have a vet's appreciation for just how many chances an Academy grad whose Daddy was a three- or four-star in the same service gets in any of the branches, or how the services treat any other officer in an at-fault aircraft loss.

[SVPete]

Yeah, I don't think you really have a vet's appreciation for just how many chances an Academy grad whose Daddy was a three- or four-star in the same service gets in any of the branches, or how the services treat any other officer in an at-fault aircraft loss.

That's relevant to McCain getting chances after his antics flying Skyraiders. But it's irrelevant to the Forrestal fire, irrelevant to his actions after escaping his cockpit, and, given his several mission over the North, his being accepted on the Oriskany.

IOW, what's up with moving the "goalposts" from claiming McCain caused the fire to claiming McCain was a coward to claiming his getting transferred to the Oriskany was "ticket-punching"?! McCain has been backstabbing the Rs and betraying the American people in Congress for 18 years. What's the fixation with McCain's Forrestal and Oriskany service? And to where do the goalposts get moved next?  

[DumbAss Tanker]

I'm not blaming him for the fire, but you're starting to go over the edge on this and seem to be assuming everyone that thinks he had an especially privileged career and a shitty record that would have gotten an ROTC commission or Mustang officer cashiered believes that.  I'm just trying to reel you in.  If he wasn't a ring-knocker 'Legacy,' he would have lost his wings and been on the street after losing a plane to power lines for nothing. 

[Eupher]

That's relevant to McCain getting chances after his antics flying Skyraiders. But it's irrelevant to the Forrestal fire, irrelevant to his actions after escaping his cockpit, and, given his several mission over the North, his being accepted on the Oriskany.

IOW, what's up with moving the "goalposts" from claiming McCain caused the fire to claiming McCain was a coward to claiming his getting transferred to the Oriskany was "ticket-punching"?! McCain has been backstabbing the Rs and betraying the American people in Congress for 18 years. What's the fixation with McCain's Forrestal and Oriskany service? And to where do the goalposts get moved next?  

When Daddy "suggests" that little Johnny "be accepted" on the Oriskany, there aren't a lot of Navy personnel officers who are gonna say "No, Admiral, Little Johnny needs to finish his time on the Forrestal."

Goalposts, schmoalposts. Politics in the military are just as rampant - perhaps moreso - than they are on Capitol Hill.

I have no problem talking about McLame's backstabbing his own alleged party - the discussion came up about the Forrestal and a lot of information came out of that, some of which was suspect and other info pretty solid.

While we're at it, let's talk about McLame's refusal to have DJT attend the funeral - but I guess in Johnny's world, it's better to pull the rug out first rather than have DJT piss on it. Either way, Johnny winds up looking like the snotnose brat.

[Happy Fun Ball]

While we're at it, let's talk about McLame's refusal to have DJT attend the funeral - but I guess in Johnny's world, it's better to pull the rug out first rather than have DJT piss on it. Either way, Johnny winds up looking like the snotnose brat.

As bad as that is, disallowing Sarah Palin, his 2008 running mate of all people, from the funeral makes him look far more petty. She didn't say anything bad about him (as far as I can remember), so why block her from attending?

[docstew]

I'm not blaming him for the fire, but you're starting to go over the edge on this and seem to be assuming everyone that thinks he had an especially privileged career and a shitty record that would have gotten an ROTC commission or Mustang officer cashiered believes that.  I'm just trying to reel you in.  If he wasn't a ring-knocker 'Legacy,' he would have lost his wings and been on the street after losing a plane to power lines for nothing.

This.


Any class A accident (total destruction of aircraft) should trigger an investigation.  A pilot found at fault for said accident, for example hotdogging and hitting some power lines, will pretty quickly find themselves driving a desk and on their way out of the service.  McCain didn't have that happen.  Although he may not have asked for it, and his father may not have asked either, there would be a "reluctance" among some commanders to take action against the admiral's son.


For comparison, the Marine aviator who clipped the cable car in 1998 in Italy ended up being tried for manslaughter and was eventually drummed out.  And he had more seniority than McCain did at the time of his accident.

[Eupher]

As bad as that is, disallowing Sarah Palin, his 2008 running mate of all people, from the funeral makes him look far more petty. She didn't say anything bad about him (as far as I can remember), so why block her from attending?

Agreed, and that's an even better example of how petty McClain was.