GM to cut 21,000 US factory jobs, shed Pontiac

[thundley4]

DETROIT – General Motors Corp. said it will cut 21,000 U.S. factory jobs by next year, phase out its storied Pontiac brand and ask the government to take more than half its stock in exchange for half of GM's government debt as part of a major restructuring that would leave current shareholders holding just 1 percent of the company.
The struggling automaker said it will offer 225 shares of common stock for every $1,000 in notes held by bondholders as part of a debt-for-equity swap that aims to retire most of GM's $27 billion in unsecured debt.
The announcements came in a filing Monday with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
GM is living on $15.4 billion in government loans and faces a June 1 deadline to restructure and get more government money. If the restructuring doesn't satisfy the government, the company could go into bankruptcy protection.
GM said it will ask the government to take more than 50 percent of its common stock in exchange for canceling half the government loans to the company as of June 1. The swap would cancel about $10 billion in government debt.

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One way or another, the taxpayer will end up holding the bag and the UAW will end up giving up very little.  Gotta keep the voting base happy.

[Eupher]

I wouldn't have a GM vehicle if you gave one to me.

[Chris_]

I wouldn't have a GM vehicle if you gave one to me.

Amen to that.  I've had several.  The last was a Chevy, aka "The P.O.S.".

Hmm, how many of those 21k employees will be union bosses?   

[thundley4]

I wouldn't have a GM vehicle if you gave one to me.

We have a Saturn, does that count? It's a 2002 that we got in 2003 with 31K miles.  Other than routine maintenance, I've had to replace the idler pulley, but that's it.

[Chris]

We have a Saturn, does that count? It's a 2002 that we got in 2003 with 31K miles.  Other than routine maintenance, I've had to replace the idler pulley, but that's it.

I think Saturn has been cribbing from Opel and Holden for a while.  Probably some of their better vehicles.

[Crazy Horse]

And again nothing about the Union renegotiating their contract.

[Chris_]

And again nothing about the Union renegotiating their contract.

My wife said she heard on the local (yokel) news this morning that Uncle Zer0 has said that all existing union contracts will stand regardless of GM's financial situation. 

[thundley4]

My wife said she heard on the local (yokel) news this morning that Uncle Zer0 has said that all existing union contracts will stand regardless of GM's financial situation. 

What I heard on FNC was that the feds we the tax payers will be on the hook for the retirees pensions and medical insurance.

[DumbAss Tanker]

I've had pretty positive experiences with all US car makes, actually.  I have found the weak point of Chevy/GM vehicles to be automatic trannies that don't last the life of the rest of the powertrain, Fords to be plagued by shitty electrical systems, and Chryslers to really need a Ford or Chevy engine, but you rarely find everything you need in a single package in this life.

[Eupher]

We have a Saturn, does that count? It's a 2002 that we got in 2003 with 31K miles.  Other than routine maintenance, I've had to replace the idler pulley, but that's it.

I owned a 2000 Saturn and put about 80K miles on it before trading it in on a Toyota, which I'll probably drive until it has 300K on it (It's got 120K on it now.)

I traded the Saturn in because I didn't trust it any more. Nothing specific, I just didn't trust it.

The car was noisy, the 5-speed shifter felt like I was driving a Mack truck, the air conditioning was ineffective, and the power plant (a 4-cylinder) was underpowered for what the car needed. Besides regular maintenance, I had to pony up $200 to replace a rear taillight assembly.

I guess Saturn figured that it doesn't cost you enough money to just replace a freakin' $1.50 lightbulb, therefore you've got to replace the whole damned thing. For $200.

Other than that, it was a good car. 

[Eupher]

I've had pretty positive experiences with all US car makes, actually.  I have found the weak point of Chevy/GM vehicles to be automatic trannies that don't last the life of the rest of the powertrain, Fords to be plagued by shitty electrical systems, and Chryslers to really need a Ford or Chevy engine, but you rarely find everything you need in a single package in this life.

One of those rare finds is the Toyota that I wrote about. Great vehicle.

Ford - OMG, I could write a book about the 1993 Taurus wagon that I bought new. Built in Chicago - or, rather better said, cobbled together in Chicago on a Monday by drunks still reeling from their activities from the night before, if they showed up at all.

Chevy/Chrysler - With these cars, I learned to like rust. A lot.

[Chris_]

The last Pontiac I had was a Grand Prix. The transmission went out at about 36800 miles (800 miles past the warranty). The mechanic said he'd never seen a transmission so fubar. I called Pontiac and told them I'd like them to chip in on the cost. Here is the general conversation:

PONTIAC: Why should we pay any of the cost.
ME: Because your transmission was faulty.
PONTIAC: How can you say that?
ME: Well, do you purposely build them so that they go out at 36800 miles?
PONTIAC: No.
ME: So it must be faulty because it DID go out at 36800 miles.
PONTIAC: Ummm...Did you take it to one of our service departments?
ME: No because all of your service departments that I've dealt with in the past are crooked and tear up more than they fix.
PONTIAC: Well, that's why we can't pay anything. None of our people actually got to see the damage to the transmission.
ME: That's no problem. I have it all in a box in the shed. Give me your address and I'll ship it right to you.
PONTIAC: Ummm...how would we know that it's the transmission in question?
ME: I don't know. Do you think I collect junked Grand Prix transmissions in my spare time?
PONTIAC: No, but we don't know how you treated the transmission.
ME: I put it in "D" to go forward. I put it in "R" to go backwards. I put it in "P" to park it.
PONTIAC: Yeah, but we don't know how you serviced it.
ME: That's easy. I have the service records.
PONTIAC: Ummm...but it's not from one of our service departments.
ME: But he's a certified mechanic.
PONTIAC: But it's not one of our service departments.

Now, unlike the DUmmies, I'm not saying the above is verbatim, but it is pretty close because I took notes. Needless to say GM didn't chip in any money. Honestly, I really didn't expect them to pay anything. I was just mad because I'd never had a transmission go out at such low mileage before. Several months after fixing the transmission I traded the car and haven't bought a GM product since.

[seabelle]

I hear the Corvette's going to get the ax soon    Will this mean my husband's '67 Sting Ray convertible will finally be worth something ?

Otherwise, we love our Trailblazer and Silverado too.  We a Chevvy Family :innocent:

[Crazy Horse]

Now, unlike the DUmmies, I'm not saying the above is verbatim, but it is pretty close because I took notes. Needless to say GM didn't chip in any money. Honestly, I really didn't expect them to pay anything. I was just mad because I'd never had a transmission go out at such low mileage before. Several months after fixing the transmission I traded the car and haven't bought a GM product since.

I had a 1996 Chevy S-10, Tranmission dust at 28,000 and blew a head gasket at 33,000 miles..................was told that anti freeze was in the oil.  Did every thing after that to drive the motor hard................................blew at 35,935 miles.

made the warranty..........................that 4 banger was 4,575.


Back to the topic.............the UAW now ownes Chysler and the USG ownes GM

[JohnnyReb]

Seems the US government has been chipping away at GM since the early 50's. They've finally busted them and gained control.

GM bought EUCLID truck co. way back and started manufacturing heavy earth moving equipment. I was a kid then and those big green machines were awesome in my eyes. EUCLID was kicking ass and taking names with the many advances and innovations they were coming up with......that is until the government stepped in with anti-trust suits. EUCLID, or later TEREX, and GM has been going down hill since then.

[NHSparky]

One of those rare finds is the Toyota that I wrote about. Great vehicle.

Ford - OMG, I could write a book about the 1993 Taurus wagon that I bought new. Built in Chicago - or, rather better said, cobbled together in Chicago on a Monday by drunks still reeling from their activities from the night before, if they showed up at all.

Chevy/Chrysler - With these cars, I learned to like rust. A lot.

And with the 2001 Toyota Tundra I had, I could write and equally thick book about how shitty it was, starting with the undersized brakes that needed to be replaced every 15K miles (and rotors replaced every 30K) and the transmission where the master cylinder went out not once but TWICE before 30K miles.  Happiest day I had with that truck was the day I got rid of it.

[USA4ME]

GM, specifically Olds and Cadillac, did me and my family well.  Got a Saab now and it does OK.  Never had any luck with Ford.  Chrysler never was a consideration (though the Dodge Hemi Cuda would have been fun).

I keep remembering as a kid seeing the USSR vids on TV in the 70's and their cars all looked like they were made in the late 40's.  Then there's the Chinese all wearing gray and riding bikes.  Welcome to the Dems/libs view of how America should be.

.

[Eupher]

And with the 2001 Toyota Tundra I had, I could write and equally thick book about how shitty it was, starting with the undersized brakes that needed to be replaced every 15K miles (and rotors replaced every 30K) and the transmission where the master cylinder went out not once but TWICE before 30K miles.  Happiest day I had with that truck was the day I got rid of it.

Umm, okay, you're not a fan of Toyota Tundra trucks. Fair enough. But I'm puzzled - transmissions have "master cylinders?" I know that brakes have master cylinders, but it's the first I've heard of trannies havin' em.

Some day when I have more time, I'll tell you about my Ford Taurus woes. Unbelievable. Motor mounts that are designed to go out? WTF is THAT about? Trannies that are designed to last only 65,000 miles? (This precious little fact Ford acknowledged, but still failed to address). The list goes on and on and on.

[NHSparky]

Umm, okay, you're not a fan of Toyota Tundra trucks. Fair enough. But I'm puzzled - transmissions have "master cylinders?" I know that brakes have master cylinders, but it's the first I've heard of trannies havin' em.

Some day when I have more time, I'll tell you about my Ford Taurus woes. Unbelievable. Motor mounts that are designed to go out? WTF is THAT about? Trannies that are designed to last only 65,000 miles? (This precious little fact Ford acknowledged, but still failed to address). The list goes on and on and on.

Sorry--I brain-farted.  It was the solenoids which went out.  Fortunately they were under warranty, but still, had they not been...

And as far as Fords and trannys go, I know your pain.  When Mrs. Sparky and I first met, she had a 1996 Ford Probe.  Tranny died at 36,077 miles, and Ken Grody Ford refused to honor the warranty despite the fact she purchased an extended warranty.  Needless to say, I've been VERY leery of Ford unless they're a proven commodity, like their trucks.  My dad drives nothing but Ford pickups/SUV's and swears by them.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

I owned a 2000 Saturn and put about 80K miles on it before trading it in on a Toyota, which I'll probably drive until it has 300K on it (It's got 120K on it now.)

I traded the Saturn in because I didn't trust it any more. Nothing specific, I just didn't trust it.

The car was noisy, the 5-speed shifter felt like I was driving a Mack truck, the air conditioning was ineffective, and the power plant (a 4-cylinder) was underpowered for what the car needed. Besides regular maintenance, I had to pony up $200 to replace a rear taillight assembly.

I guess Saturn figured that it doesn't cost you enough money to just replace a freakin' $1.50 lightbulb, therefore you've got to replace the whole damned thing. For $200.

Other than that, it was a good car. 

Just wait till something goes out on the Toyota! You'll wish you had two of those Saturns!

[Eupher]

Just wait till something goes out on the Toyota! You'll wish you had two of those Saturns!

Well, let's face it, getting ANY kind of work done on a car or truck today is pricey. Get your oil changed lately? In one of those quick change places, they cost more than $30. (I don't use 'em unless I'm on the road somewhere and even then, I watch 'em like a hawk.)

On this Toyota 2004 mini-van with 120K on it, the only things I've done to it were part of regular maintenance, but even still, changing out the timing chain is pricey - because, of course, if you're gonna do that, you might as well change out the water pump while you're there.

Platinum spark plugs (try getting to the rear bank of the transverse V-6 sometime!  ) at about $10 a pop, brakes, transmission flush & fill a couple of times now (due again soon), tires, and yes, even a new battery this winter.

Oh, and a set of rear shocks.

When it's time to do the boots and front axle, that's when I take a second mortgage out.   

But even with all that, this car is going to LAST.

I didn't trust that Saturn. It might well be running today, but I didn't trust it.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

Well, let's face it, getting ANY kind of work done on a car or truck today is pricey. Get your oil changed lately? In one of those quick change places, they cost more than $30. (I don't use 'em unless I'm on the road somewhere and even then, I watch 'em like a hawk.)

On this Toyota 2004 mini-van with 120K on it, the only things I've done to it were part of regular maintenance, but even still, changing out the timing chain is pricey - because, of course, if you're gonna do that, you might as well change out the water pump while you're there.

Platinum spark plugs (try getting to the rear bank of the transverse V-6 sometime!  ) at about $10 a pop, brakes, transmission flush & fill a couple of times now (due again soon), tires, and yes, even a new battery this winter.

Oh, and a set of rear shocks.

When it's time to do the boots and front axle, that's when I take a second mortgage out.   

But even with all that, this car is going to LAST.

I didn't trust that Saturn. It might well be running today, but I didn't trust it.

I hear ya Euph...I had an 87 Honda Prelude that was extremely reliable{the body was falling off of the damn thing at 200,000 miles because the Japs hadn't grasped the concept of rust inhibition at that point }but man whenever I had to do just the most basic repair it seemed to cost twice as much as the American cars I had owned and was a complete pain in the ass to work on! I think the Japanese must have had 7 year olds as mechanics because everything is so damned close to everything else and turned sideways and upside down I hated working on the damn thing.... a complete pain in the ass!

[Gratiot]

The last Pontiac I had was a Grand Prix. The transmission went out at about 36800 miles (800 miles past the warranty). The mechanic said he'd never seen a transmission so fubar. I called Pontiac and told them I'd like them to chip in on the cost. Here is the general conversation:

PONTIAC: Ummm...but it's not from one of our service departments.
ME: But he's a certified mechanic.
PONTIAC: But it's not one of our service departments.

I believe by law, they're not allowed to mandate or state that a warranty is revoked by not going to a given brands official dealership for repairs.  All though representatives from all brands will often attempt to imply such.

[Doc Savage]

I have a 06 V-6 Vue.  Has a Honda engine in it.  71K in a little over 38 months. Runs like a champ.  Bought my kid a 03 Saturn SC2.  Little old lady owned it, meticulous maitenance records.  70K on that, runs great.  Just traded a Pontiac SV2 mini-van.  Cost a fortune out the door, at 50K cost a fortune to maintain.  Traded that for a Ford Fusion (3 months ago).  Very surprised when I sat in it the first time, and even more surprised when I drove it the first time.  Not the same ford that I grew up with that is for sure.  And then there is my 109K 318I rag top.  stays in the garage in the winter, top down during the summer.  Fun car, little 4 banger that gets great gas mileage.  Don't let it break though, unless you have a few dollars in the bank to fix it.

[Chris_]

I believe by law, they're not allowed to mandate or state that a warranty is revoked by not going to a given brands official dealership for repairs.  All though representatives from all brands will often attempt to imply such.

The problem was that my car was a few miles OUTSIDE of the warranty miles.