http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6346384Oh my.
The forked primitive, who doesn't know excresence about sports, but who did donate to Skins's island:
Forkboy (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 01:50 PM
Original message
Taking the law into your hands.
Back when I was 19 (I'm 41 now) my best friend's younger sister was raped. She was thirteen. Too scared to talk to the police or even her parents, she did however tell her brother and I what had happened, and who had done it, a character we had already had run ins with (he had pointed a gun at my head the year previous). My friend and I scoured the area looking for him, fully intent on murder. After a fruitless search we called it a day, knowing we'd find him sooner or later.
It was sooner. I found him the next evening. I figured I'd let him know why I was about to kill him, and his response was, "I tried to split the bitch in half." He was well built guy, bigger than me, and clearly had no fear of me. His mistake. I proceeded to beat the **** out of him. After he was unconscious, I slammed his face into the sidewalk a half dozen times, ruining his face forever, I kicked him the nuts just as many times, and then I broke his fingers one by one, knuckle by knuckle. He clearly deserved it, and then some, in my opinion. What stopped me from actually killing him is still a mystery to me, but I didn't do it.
When I got home I took a shower to get the blood off of me, and then went to bed, where I proceeded to think about the night's actions. By morning I hated what I had done. Not because he didn't deserve it. He clearly did. It was because that wasn't the person I wanted to be. I didn't want to be a murderer, and it really hit me hard just how close I had come to being one.
I got up and got sick, the first time hurting someone had ever made me feel that way. I had been in almost a fight per week for a year and half up to that point, often for money, often just for fun. I had deliberately caused injuries that some of these people must still be suffering from, yet I had never felt a moment's remorse for it. This time was different, even though the person I beat up was the one who deserved it the most out of all the people I had fought. I realized that night that it wasn't about this guy and whether he deserved it or not, it was about me and whether I had the right to do that, and what kind of person did that make me if I was willing to consider murder to satisfy my anger?
That night was an epiphany for me, the only one I've ever had. 22 years ago I told myself that I wouldn't be the person I was clearly becoming. I wouldn't set myself above the law, I wouldn't pretend I had a special right to do this just because the crime was so heinous. I didn't. None of us do. How can we say Bush should be held accountable when we won't even hold ourselves accountable? I can promise each and every one of you that I fully understand the anger and the urge to act on it. I did it.
When we talk of going after pedophiles, rapists, whatever, we often say we'll do exactly what I did 22 years ago, and I'll never argue over whether or not they deserve it. There's a special section in Hell reserved for these people. What I will argue, and have from that day, is that we don't have the right to commit a crime in response to another crime. It doesn't make us better people, it doesn't make the victim not a victim. The only thing it really changes is us. I became firmly against the death penalty that same day. It was no longer about the crime or the perp. It was about me, about what kind of person I wanted to be, and about what kind of country I wanted to live in.
The cop primitive, who has NOT donated to Skins's island:
vadawg (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. It all depends on what you consider justice
Is taking it into your own hands the only way to achieve justice, if not for you then the person gets away scot free/ type of crime etc, a lot of variables, i got a look at both sides of this argument, as someone who is a LEO i gotta say no to vigilante justice but as someone who grew up with justice being in the hands of one man, whose word was law, a system that works well in some ways, i gotta say it all comes down to the particular situation...
Forkboy (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And in the end the choice is ours in how we act.
As are the consequences.
In my case I had options. My sister's husband at the team was the lead detective in the city, and he knew the guy I went after from
And let's be clear, taking the law into your own hands isn't justice, it's revenge. Call it what it is. Another crime isn't justice, it's another crime, good reason or not.
vadawg (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. depends what you term a crime, from an american point of view justice is totally different thatn from justice in other societies, i think people think in terms of its justice if its the state giving the punishment but revenge if its the family or victim meting out the punishment, but what happens when there is no state, or the state has no law that covers the particular crime and the family or victim exact justice, would you still say that it dosent meet the standards of justice.
Forkboy (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. You're veering into very hypothetical realms here, or at least realms that aren't related to the U.S
There is a state here, and we do have laws that cover this.
I'll try to answer your point honestly as it applies to societies where these things aren't in place. If there are no laws that cover these crimes, then the family can seek revenge/justice if they choose, but it's still something they have to reconcile with themselves. In a place with no laws, there are no standards except the ones we apply to ourselves. And that's up to the individual and what they're comfortable with being.
For the record, in the case of the death penalty, I don't consider that state justice, but state sanctioned revenge. I think in any case where the death penalty is present it should be the decision of the victim's family. It's revenge either way, so those most affected by it should be the only ones with the right to make that choice. Many would do so in a heartbeat, but there are many other victim's families that still don't want it, even when they state does. I still don't agree with it, but I'd respect the family making that decision more than I do the state.
And also, this is far from the only reason I'm against the death penalty. Things like the government deciding who lives and who doesn't, the racial disparity, the amount of innocent people on death row, etc, all play a part in my position. This event was just the jumping off point for me.
vadawg (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. appreciate the answers, but hypothetically in the US frinstance there are a lot of sub cultures and ethnic groups here who view stuff diferently, what happens it the state dosent supply justice to the family/victims, is it automatically revenge no matter the reasons why they act as they do, think of the putting down a rabid dog scenario, not that i advocate vigilantism but i come from a culture where we were outside of the state and all our legal issues where heard and dealt with by one man who had absolute power in rendering punishments.. So this question always interests me... thanks...
The G-man primitive, who has NOT donated to Skins's island:
Gman2 (611 posts) Wed Aug-19-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Situation:
Guy in Hummer towards end of his red turn light gets tired of waiting. He roasts rubber, and almost causes a pileup of 10 cars. I am on Mcycle. They go to Wacovia bank, park in handicapp, and as they went towards there, I saw them laughing all the way. I roll up, and tell a woman to call police. She says I dont know. I say, then cuz of you, I have to face them. Two guys. I call him a ****ing piece of shit. I tell those watching, and ready to take youtube series on their phones, instead of calling police. I am telling all to call police. The jerk starts to move on me, and I tell him I will take his ****ing head off. He backs up. Police come way late. I call police, to report his liscence, and they tell me they are warning me about being a vigilanty. I scold her loudly, asking what is her better solution. She says call 911. I say you just told me they would do nothing.
The system is ****ed up. When a good citizen cannot intervene to save lives, there is something wrong.
The gorpled primitive, who has NOT donated to Skins's island:
gorfle (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. I will not judge you or your choice.
And not having been in your shoes, I will not say definitively how I would respond in a similar situation.
But I currently believe this: If there are, in fact, people among us who deserve "special section in Hell", then these people have placed themselves outside of civilized society. Consequently, they no longer deserve the benefits that come with being in a civilized society.
To me, it is exactly the same as putting down a rabid dog. You can feel sorry for the dog, and you can feel sorry for all the dog could have been and was not. But you shouldn't feel bad about yourself for preserving civilization by putting down the rabid dog.
To me, people who are an active, physical threat to civilized society have, through their own actions, lost the privilege of expecting civilized behavior from that society, and while I can feel sad for them and the opportunity they lost I won't feel bad about removing them from civilized society.
Now, I can see how taking pleasure in such removal, or drawing out the agony of such removal, in search of some kind of vengeance, would be a bad thing.
Forkboy (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-19-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. I was overdue with my monthly serious post.
So this was it. Now we can get back to discussing important things, like football!
Oh, I dunno. The forked primitive doesn't know shit about football.
There's lots more to the bonfire, at the link above.
