The Conservative Cave
Interests => Around the House & In the Garage => Topic started by: ChuckJ on June 17, 2013, 03:22:59 PM
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I have a 1999 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4-wheel-drive. This morning nothing on the instrument panel was working. Everything else was working fine, but I didn't have any working gauges or warning lights.
Before I go any farther let me admit that I am as far from being an auto mechanic as nadin is from being a genius, but I do have at least a small amount of common sense so my first thought was: fuses.
Unfortunately all of the fuses are good, but as I was pushing on the fuses to make sure that they were all seated properly the instrument panel lit up. As soon as I shut the door to walk back around to the drivers side the instrument panel went dead again. I reached back in and pushed on the fuse box and things lit back up.
All of this leads me to believe that I have a connection problem at the fuse box.
For those who may not know, the fuse box is located on the passenger side just in front of the door.
My problem is the trim piece that covers the area where the fuse box is located. Is there anything on the net that would show what screws/bolts are where in regard to removing this trim piece?
Oh. And one more thing. Do those of you who do have mechanical knowledge agree that with my assessment? I mean of the problem and not whether or not I have mechanical know-how.
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Sounds like a ground problem to your fuse panel. You'll have to remove it (after disconnecting the battery) and check for any corrosion.
This is a common issue on some older Japanese cars (*cough*Datsun*cough*).
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Before you do any work on the fuse box disconnect the negative battery terminal. Make sure you have identified the proper fuse (good info incl. schematics can be found on the internet). I'm betting the connector that attaches the service wires to the back of the fuse box is loose or corroded.
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Sounds like a ground problem to your fuse panel. You'll have to remove it (after disconnecting the battery) and check for any corrosion.
This is a common issue on some older Japanese cars (*cough*Datsun*cough*).
....and Buicks.....and Ford Rangers........and Dodges. All makes now have more than one ground and if any one of them fails all kind of things can happen.
The wife's Buick was in the shop for a week once and 3 weeks the next time for a bad ground. The first ground failure was under her left foot, under the carpet, move foot right way and car would quit and not start again. I would get in screw around with key and it would crank. She would get in, move seat, and it would quit..... :banghead: :mad:
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....and Buicks.....and Ford Rangers........and Dodges. All makes now have more than one ground and if any one of them fails all kind of things can happen.
The wife's Buick was in the shop for a week once and 3 weeks the next time for a bad ground. The first ground failure was under her left foot, under the carpet, move foot right way and car would quit and not start again. I would get in screw around with key and it would crank. She would get in, move seat, and it would quit..... :banghead: :mad:
For both of you that suspect a ground problem, He says that if he shoves on the front of the fuse box the lights come on. Usually (for good reason) the grounds are nowhere near the fuse box. I'll put my money on a bad connector for the posi. wires going out to the dashboard.
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For both of you that suspect a ground problem, He says that if he shoves on the front of the fuse box the lights come on. Usually (for good reason) the grounds are nowhere near the fuse box. I'll put my money on a bad connector for the posi. wires going out to the dashboard.
I wasn't trying to help.....just commenting about how much trouble grounds could be.
ETA: Had a John Deere motor grader that all the blade functions except up/down were controlled by rocker switches and solenoids. The blade wouldn't circle but I had electricity to the solenoid switch. Called the dealer and asked for a mechanic and solenoid right now. The solenoid was buried in a hydraulic motor and I didn't want to mess with it. I needed the grader right then.Mechanic came, he checked the amperage on the wire and it was shy a few amps.....checked back into the gooseneck and found the wire broken....all but one small strand broken.....just enough to light up a test light.....cut and skinned the wire....put on a stake on connector....all was well.....except the $330 bill for a connector..... :lmao:
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I wasn't trying to help.....just commenting about how much trouble grounds could be.
Roger that.
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Before you do any work on the fuse box disconnect the negative battery terminal. Make sure you have identified the proper fuse (good info incl. schematics can be found on the internet). I'm betting the connector that attaches the service wires to the back of the fuse box is loose or corroded.
Based on what it is doing I suspect the bolded is correct. My problem at the moment is figuring out how to remove the trim piece that is around the fuse box.
I've only disassembled the interiors of two vehicles: A '72 Pontiac Catalina and an '82 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Naturally those were both years ago.
On this Jeep I see one screw in the trim near the door, but that's all that I see visible.
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Roger that.
Read what I added.....being in a hurry to fix things can cost you.
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For both of you that suspect a ground problem, He says that if he shoves on the front of the fuse box the lights come on. Usually (for good reason) the grounds are nowhere near the fuse box. I'll put my money on a bad connector for the posi. wires going out to the dashboard.
That's what I meant. :p
O-)
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Based on what it is doing I suspect the bolded is correct. My problem at the moment is figuring out how to remove the trim piece that is around the fuse box.
I've only disassembled the interiors of two vehicles: A '72 Pontiac Catalina and an '82 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Naturally those were both years ago.
On this Jeep I see one screw in the trim near the door, but that's all that I see visible.
Not familiar with the vehicle but most plastic interior trim is held on with molded clips or those push in plastic pins. I would remove any screws visible and start gently prying the trim piece. You should be able to feel where the clips are.
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If any of you happen to check this thread I have some new info.
Now I don't think it is the fuse box because everything else that runs off of the fuse box is okay. I think it was just a coincidence that pushing on the fuse box caused the gauges to work because I can't recreate that scenario.
I took the dash apart today and checked the connections to the instrument panel. Everything is clean and connected tightly.
I did notice that even when the gauges aren't working other parts of the panel are working. The dash light works. The highbeam indicator works. The turn signal indicators work. The rear door ajar indicator works.
What does not work is the gauges, the odometer, and the warning lights (such as the check engine light).
Is it possible that there is some sort of bad connection at the ignition switch?
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If any of you happen to check this thread I have some new info.
Now I don't think it is the fuse box because everything else that runs off of the fuse box is okay. I think it was just a coincidence that pushing on the fuse box caused the gauges to work because I can't recreate that scenario.
I took the dash apart today and checked the connections to the instrument panel. Everything is clean and connected tightly.
I did notice that even when the gauges aren't working other parts of the panel are working. The dash light works. The highbeam indicator works. The turn signal indicators work. The rear door ajar indicator works.
What does not work is the gauges, the odometer, and the warning lights (such as the check engine light).
Is it possible that there is some sort of bad connection at the ignition switch?
You really need a schematic of your wiring system. Your entire dashboard would not be powered by a single fuse. I'm sure there is some logic to what fuses go to what systems but I've never figured it out. The only power connections at your ignition switch are probably ACC and RUN both of which go to the fuse box. The things you mentioned above would not normally be powered by the instrument power fuse. Back to basics, how do you know which fuse is instrument power and how do you know it is good?
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You really need a schematic of your wiring system. Your entire dashboard would not be powered by a single fuse. I'm sure there is some logic to what fuses go to what systems but I've never figured it out. The only power connections at your ignition switch are probably ACC and RUN both of which go to the fuse box. The things you mentioned above would not normally be powered by the instrument power fuse. Back to basics, how do you know which fuse is instrument power and how do you know it is good?
I'm going by the fuse box diagram to know which fuse. Though I admit I'm curious as to the accuracy of the diagram because the fuse is only 10amp. I don't know much about electrical systems but I would figure that it would take more than 10amps to run the entire instrument panel.
As for knowing the fuse is good, I guess it would be best to say that I know it's not blown because I pulled it and examined it. I also cleaned the contacts on it.
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I'm going by the fuse box diagram to know which fuse. Though I admit I'm curious as to the accuracy of the diagram because the fuse is only 10amp. I don't know much about electrical systems but I would figure that it would take more than 10amps to run the entire instrument panel.
As for knowing the fuse is good, I guess it would be best to say that I know it's not blown because I pulled it and examined it. I also cleaned the contacts on it.
10 amps is plenty for instrument power. Sometimes it is very hard to tell visually if a fuse is good. Just for the heck of it replace it with a new one.
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10 amps is plenty for instrument power. Sometimes it is very hard to tell visually if a fuse is good. Just for the heck of it replace it with a new one.
But if the fuse was bad wouldn't it not work at all instead of intermittently?
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But if the fuse was bad wouldn't it not work at all instead of intermittently?
What do you have to loose?
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What do you have to loose?
True. I'll give it shot in a bit.
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Tried a new fuse. It didn't help so I'm still at a loss.
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Tried a new fuse. It didn't help so I'm still at a loss.
Between the fuse box and the dash will be several connectors so that the dash can be removed. You might be able to trace the wire from the fuse box to the connector and inspect it. The tough part is that most fuses have more than one wire going out You are probably at the point that you need a wiring diagram and circuit tester to find your problem.
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During my online searchings I found out about a self-diagnostic test for the instrument panel where you press the odometer reset while turning the key to the 'on' position. The test works fine when the instrument panel is working. When the panel is not working nothing happens when the test is performed.
Is this a sign that the panel is bad? Or is it just evidence that power is not always getting to the panel?
I really hate not having a clue about this mechanical stuff. This must be how a DUmmie would feel about everything if it ever lost its delusion.
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During my online searchings I found out about a self-diagnostic test for the instrument panel where you press the odometer reset while turning the key to the 'on' position. The test works fine when the instrument panel is working. When the panel is not working nothing happens when the test is performed.
Is this a sign that the panel is bad? Or is it just evidence that power is not always getting to the panel?
I really hate not having a clue about this mechanical stuff. This must be how a DUmmie would feel about everything if it ever lost its delusion.
If it wasn't getting power in the first place it wouldn't test. The thing I keep going back to is that the panel worked intermittently when you jiggled the fuse panel. I know from personal experience that I have identified (and replaced) the wrong fuse and had difficulty identifying the correct wires on the back of the box. If you have the box out, I would power up the system and carefully (being careful to not inadvertently ground yourself or the box) jiggle the wires coming out the back and see if you can repeat the intermittent panel power. That way, you might ensure you have the right fuse terminal.
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I don't have the fuse panel removed yet.
Sometimes I just can't seem to get a break.
This was my plan for today...
There are two 10-pin connections that go to the instrument panel. I was going to pull the dash again. Then use the mulitmeter to see if those connections had power.
The multimeter registered nothing on everything. The reason: my multimeter is screwed. I've replaced the battery and the fuse. Still doesn't work. If you beat the living hell out of it while using profanity it will work for a split second.
Now I plan to borrow my dad's multimeter tomorrow and try to tinker with it tomorrow afternoon.
I've searched the net in vain for a diagram that shows the pin assignments for the two 10-pin connectors. This is probably a stupid question, but am I safe in assuming that each of the 10-pin connectors have 1 ground?
If I can ever get this thing whipped I'm going to take a break and do something less irritating and stressful. Like maybe wrestle an alligator.
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I don't have the fuse panel removed yet.
Sometimes I just can't seem to get a break.
This was my plan for today...
There are two 10-pin connections that go to the instrument panel. I was going to pull the dash again. Then use the mulitmeter to see if those connections had power.
The multimeter registered nothing on everything. The reason: my multimeter is screwed. I've replaced the battery and the fuse. Still doesn't work. If you beat the living hell out of it while using profanity it will work for a split second.
Now I plan to borrow my dad's multimeter tomorrow and try to tinker with it tomorrow afternoon.
I've searched the net in vain for a diagram that shows the pin assignments for the two 10-pin connectors. This is probably a stupid question, but am I safe in assuming that each of the 10-pin connectors have 1 ground?
If I can ever get this thing whipped I'm going to take a break and do something less irritating and stressful. Like maybe wrestle an alligator.
Absolutely not, they may well have more than one or none. You are thinking about this like a human you must think like an electrical engineer.
Sorry about the (unfortunately true) EE joke. The multimeter sounds like a good idea but, I doubt you have found all the connectors. When I built my Cobra replica, the kit used an 88-93 Mustang wiring harness. After a serious wire diet I still have 54 circuits going to the dash.
You are really at the point that you need a diagram to help you identify the color coded wires. I did a quick search and found several sites that sell diagram files pretty reasonable. You could also get a detailed list of the circuits served by each fuse (yes I still suspect the fuse box).
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Absolutely not, they may well have more than one or none. You are thinking about this like a human you must think like an electrical engineer.
Sorry about the (unfortunately true) EE joke. The multimeter sounds like a good idea but, I doubt you have found all the connectors. When I built my Cobra replica, the kit used an 88-93 Mustang wiring harness. After a serious wire diet I still have 54 circuits going to the dash.
You are really at the point that you need a diagram to help you identify the color coded wires. I did a quick search and found several sites that sell diagram files pretty reasonable. You could also get a detailed list of the circuits served by each fuse (yes I still suspect the fuse box).
Don't worry about engineering jokes. While contorting myself to get to the interior fuses I came to the conclusion that the designer doesn't have kids because if he thought that was the best place to stick a fuse panel he probably screws his wife in the ear.
One last thing that I forgot to mention earlier and I'm not going to worry about it again until tomorrow afternoon.
I had the instrument panel unplugged and out of the dash sitting on the passenger seat. I was just going to lock it up and leave things there. I hit the electronic door lock to lock the doors and nothing happened. If you pressed it to UNLOCK the doors it would work but not to LOCK the doors.
I didn't think much of it. I shut the door and used the key to lock the driver's side. Then attempted to do the same on the passenger side. The passenger side door would not lock with the key. I could turn the key to left or to the right and it was like nothing was happening.
I went back to driver's side. Plugged the panel back in. Locked all the doors. Then re-pulled the panel before shutting the door.
What would the instrumental panel have to do with the electronic door locks and how in the hell could it affect the manual locking of the door?
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"What would the instrumental panel have to do with the electronic door locks and how in the hell could it affect the manual locking of the door?"
There you go thinking like a human again. I have no idea. I could guess but it would confuse the issue. If you have the cluster out you might be able to take it to a dealer and have it tested.
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Okay. Here is where I'm at now.
According to the multimeter only 2 of the 20 wires that connect to the cluster have power. I'm sure that some of the 20 are grounds and would have no power, but I assume that all of the remaining 18 aren't grounds which leads me to assume that it is a wiring problem and not the instrument panel.
Here's where things get squirrelly.
Below is a diagram of the interior fuse panel. Fuse 9 is shown as being on the circuit with the instrument cluster. According to the multimeter this particular fuse is getting power, but fuses 3 through 7 are NOT getting power. I tested them kind of rushed because we look to have some bad weather rolling in. Maybe I just wasn't getting a good connection. I'll test them again in the morning.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss137/Bucket_pail/fusepanel_zpsb901042c.jpg)
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Most of the wires going to the cluster probably are signal wires & wouldn't be powered unless the car is running . You should be able to match the color coding coming out of the fuse box to the connector wires to ID the inst. power wire/wires. Ground wires are pretty much either solid black or black with a stripe. If one or both of the two hot wires you have now are inst. power wires your problem may well be the cluster.
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I had it on, but I hadn't thought about actually having it running. I tried it again with it running and with everything that I could think of turned on.
Below is a diagram. There are three wires that are black. All three with a different colored stripe. The wires labeled "TS" are apparently the turn signal indicators because the meter would jump from 0-12 as the blinkers flashed. I have the lower right-hand wire in the left connector labeled "0-1" because no matter how I worked the connection the reading would fluctuate between 1 and 0.
Since the dash light works I'm assuming that one of the wires getting power is going to the dash light. Since the highbeam indicator light and door ajar indicator light work I assume that either one or two of the other wires getting power serve those. The only indicator light that I didn't think to check before I pulled the instrument panel was the emergency brake light.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss137/Bucket_pail/Dash1_zpsb32a08e9.jpg)
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Here's the latest update. I've purchased a service manual. Below are the pin assignments for the cluster connectors.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss137/Bucket_pail/Dash_Pins_zps33dde6c8.jpg)
Below is a wiring diagram.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss137/Bucket_pail/Dash2_zps28c833e8.jpg)
Since I'm getting power to the Fused B(+) and the the Fused Ignition Switch Output (Start/run) does that mean the panel itself is screwed?
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Starting to sound like it. Your dealer may be able to test it or, if by some miracle, you know some one with the same vehicle, you could plug it into theirs.
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I've been running through the diagnostics list in the service manual. One of the steps involved reinstalling the instrument panel and engaging the emergency brake to see if the brake indicator on the instrumental panel is functioning. When I reinstalled the panel everything began working.
I turned it off and on several times and it worked each time. I drove it to town and back. It worked except for when I was on a very bumpy dirt road. Of course, I didn't have it screwed into place. I just had the two connectors connected.
Is it possible that the connectors had just enough oxidation (or whatever) on them to prevent a good connection and the friction of my repeatedly connecting and disconnecting the panel scraped some of the oxidation off?
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This is why I hate electrical problems. They make tools to clean the connectors. Radio shack might be a good source. Also for the final connection a liberal coat of silicone grease helps prevent corrosion.
Also, trace your ground wires to where they connect to the body & clean & grease them.
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This is getting to be more of a headache than I wanted.
It's back to not working. I cleaned everything. I didn't get any grease. I also haven't checked the ground wire because of the weather.
I had a thought that may or may not be correct. I figured since I now know the pin/wire assignments on the panel itself that I could set the multimeter to ohms, touch the black lead to the ground pin and the red lead to the Fused B(+) pin and then to the Fused Ignition Switch Output pin to see if there was a good circuit. I'm not getting one on those two lines, but I am getting a circuit on the things that I know are working which would bring me back to a screwed instrumental panel.
Based on the wiring diagram both the Fused B and Fused Ignition appear to be tied into both ground pins. At least it looks so to me.
Does the above make sense?
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This is getting to be more of a headache than I wanted.
It's back to not working. I cleaned everything. I didn't get any grease. I also haven't checked the ground wire because of the weather.
I had a thought that may or may not be correct. I figured since I now know the pin/wire assignments on the panel itself that I could set the multimeter to ohms, touch the black lead to the ground pin and the red lead to the Fused B(+) pin and then to the Fused Ignition Switch Output pin to see if there was a good circuit. I'm not getting one on those two lines, but I am getting a circuit on the things that I know are working which would bring me back to a screwed instrumental panel.
Based on the wiring diagram both the Fused B and Fused Ignition appear to be tied into both ground pins. At least it looks so to me.
Does the above make sense?
You are getting beyond my expertise (shade tree mechanic). However, the ohm meter is to measure resistance so you don't want to use it on a hot wire. I think you would want to use the volt meter to check a positive circuit. You could check the ground circuits by connecting the ohm meter to the ground wire/wires at the connector and any good ground point on the frame like a screw or bolt head. Low resistance = good ground.