Author Topic: Can someone please explain this to me?  (Read 9088 times)

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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2008, 03:48:22 PM »
Don't the Palestinians serve a larger purpose in terms of the Muslim world though? I can't help but think that their plight is somewhat used to serve a greater goal when it comes to making the world answer for supposed injustices against Muslims.
Exactly.  After WW II there were 50 MILLION displaced persons in Europe.  They were absorbed in a generation.  The 3 or so million "Palestinians" are NOT accepted into their "brother muslim" countries so they can remain a festering sore next to Israel.

islam -- it's all about the hate.


If you haven't already, you must watch the documentary that played on cable about the Palestinian girl who blew herself up and also killed a Jewish girl. The documentary followed the Jewish girl's mother and her attempts to meet with the suicide bomber's parents. They finally arrange a video conference between them. Very enlightening on how that overall conflict is allowed to fester. The Palestinians came off as dogmatic and brainwashed. It was sad. They are holding to their hatred out of principle now. They refuse to blink. Now, I'm no political scholar and I certainly can't begin to understand what life is like in that part of the world. But it doesn't take a genius to see the writing on the wall.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2008, 03:49:20 PM »
I will agree that they are used as a tool by the rest of the muslim world to garner sympathy,  but if you look at their history, they have been most oppressed by the muslims themselves.....

The "rest of the world", has made a large number of "muslim nations" rich beyond their wildest dreams, and still they bitch and complain.  We have no control over what they have accomplished with their wealth, but they are only subject to injustices as a result of their own actions.

Damn, you said that better than I could, and shorter too.

The "Palestinians" have been used by their own.

The "Palestinians" got a homeland in 1947; it's called "Jordan."

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2008, 03:59:19 PM »
You know, what really annoys me about the "Palestinian" issue is, that I've spent some time in that part of the world, and when I went to Gaza, I could only sadly shake my head........Gaza could be the "Riviera" of the middle east, but for some reason, they prefer to lob home made rockets into Israel, than build high-rise condos and beach resorts......

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2008, 04:03:07 PM »
You know, what really annoys me about the "Palestinian" issue is, that I've spent some time in that part of the world, and when I went to Gaza, I could only sadly shake my head........Gaza could be the "Riviera" of the middle east, but for some reason, they prefer to lob home made rockets into Israel, than build high-rise condos and beach resorts......

doc

I have not been there, but I have heard the same.  Anyone else gets pristine, beautiful seaside beach property, they START DEVELOPING and create resorts and the like.  Not the muslims  -- they just see it as a big rocket launch pad for lobbing rockets into Israel.
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2008, 04:05:11 PM »
That's because it full of filthy joooooooooos!!!!!!

Somebody had to say it!!! :-) :-)

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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2008, 04:10:38 PM »
My memory is faulty, but someone once said something like...."the fighting will stop when the Palestinians learn to love themselves more than they hate Israel....."

doc
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2008, 04:14:32 PM »
Well, they don't subscribe to the notion of places like holy sites ever becoming anything other than Muslim places. Once a Muslim place, always a Muslim place. They will never be able to say, "okay halfsies?" Or something along those lines.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

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Forget change, bring back common sense.
-------------------------------------------------

No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2008, 04:22:29 PM »
Well, they don't subscribe to the notion of places like holy sites ever becoming anything other than Muslim places. Once a Muslim place, always a Muslim place. They will never be able to say, "okay halfsies?" Or something along those lines.


Well....prophesy says that there will be a THIRD Jewish temple built on the "temple mount".........so something is going to have to give at some point.

doc
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2008, 04:23:19 PM »
My memory is faulty, but someone once said something like...."the fighting will stop when the Palestinians learn to love themselves more than they hate Israel....."

I believe it was Golda Meir--again, in the mid-1970s--who said peace would never come to the Middle East until the Arabs stopped killing their own children.

Or something like that.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2008, 04:46:34 PM »
I will agree that they are used as a tool by the rest of the muslim world to garner sympathy,  but if you look at their history, they have been most oppressed by the muslims themselves.....

The "rest of the world", has made a large number of "muslim nations" rich beyond their wildest dreams, and still they bitch and complain.  We have no control over what they have accomplished with their wealth, but they are only subject to injustices as a result of their own actions.

Damn, you said that better than I could, and shorter too.

The "Palestinians" have been used by their own.

The "Palestinians" got a homeland in 1947; it's called "Jordan."



I believe,and correct me if I am wrong,that the Jordanians under King Hussein expelled them for a variety of reason one of which was to create an antagonism towards Israel.

As to your point where the left turned against Israel in 1974 I would propose it coinicided with their feeling of superiority in the wake of Nixons resignation.
Remember I was 9 years old throughout 1974 so was not very politically aware as it related to international politics but given the dem party had embraced the pacifist,surrender at all cost McGovernite viewpoint in 1972 and they just got rid of the hated Nixon.
They thought they had complete political control in this country forever at that point and began to view Israel as an imperialist pariah on the world stage.

To add to that was the energy crisis that had swept through and the libs viewed Israel as a destabilizing force which irritated the OPEC nations.
Libs always think if you give a bully what they want they will be nice and go away so Israel standing up to the moslem countries instead of cowtowing aggrivated them and they blamed them for the increase in energy costs instead of the shieks.




Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2008, 04:54:20 PM »
I believe,and correct me if I am wrong,that the Jordanians under King Hussein expelled them for a variety of reason one of which was to create an antagonism towards Israel.

There was something that happened in 1970--for some reason, I recall S Downing (dutch508) commenting upon it in the other place--but I'm not sure what it was, where King Hussein had to expel a whole bunch of "Palestinians" because of their trouble-making.

It wasn't so much the "Palestinians" themselves, but their "leaders" (Yassir Arafat, &c.), who were seeking to destabilize Jordan.  It sticks in my mind that S Downing knows a lot about this particular instance.

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned the former British mandate there, creating Israel and Jordan.  Jordan was meant to be the homeland for any "Palestinians" who got displaced, but their "Palestinian" "leaders" wouldn't let their people go to the new Promised Land; they forced them to stay where they were.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2008, 05:16:25 PM »
I believe,and correct me if I am wrong,that the Jordanians under King Hussein expelled them for a variety of reason one of which was to create an antagonism towards Israel.

There was something that happened in 1970--for some reason, I recall S Downing (dutch508) commenting upon it in the other place--but I'm not sure what it was, where King Hussein had to expel a whole bunch of "Palestinians" because of their trouble-making.

It wasn't so much the "Palestinians" themselves, but their "leaders" (Yassir Arafat, &c.), who were seeking to destabilize Jordan.  It sticks in my mind that S Downing knows a lot about this particular instance.

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned the former British mandate there, creating Israel and Jordan.  Jordan was meant to be the homeland for any "Palestinians" who got displaced, but their "Palestinian" "leaders" wouldn't let their people go to the new Promised Land; they forced them to stay where they were.

I would also ask as a corollary to Dixies original question why,in light of the fact many or most libs would surrender Israels existence in a heartbeat to appease the islamofacists,do so many of the Jewish population here support the dem party?

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2008, 06:58:15 PM »
But it seems to be a conveinent scapegoat for all of America's ills. I get sick and tired of hearing people say "Bush's neocon this and that..." I've had no fewer than three people say something along those lines in face to face conversations.

I think the word "neo-con" has become a catch-all phrase, at least in the last few years.

"Neo-con" has a very specific meaning to me.  It was primarily Jewish Democrats who became fed up with how the Democratic party consistently undermined the US military, and they became "new conservatives."  Basically it's big gov't libs who want a powerful military, and since they were Jewish then Israel was important to them.

Given the definition as I described, I don't consider GWB to be a neo-con.  He had some advisors who were neos, but that was it.  In the past few years, "neo-con" has been redefined to mean Republicans who approve of the GWOT, and that was never what they were.

Edit:

The modern interpretation of "neocon" comes from a group of liberal/centrist politically active Jews (in the late 80's and 90's) that were/are supporters of Israel, and generally hawkish on the application of military force as an instrument of US foreign policy......they found a home in the republican party when the democrats fell under the control of the anti-war crowd....

This is what I get for posting before reading the whole thread.  I could have just quoted this and said "Ditto."

.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 07:02:17 PM by USA4ME »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2008, 12:47:59 PM »
[\quote]

I would also ask as a corollary to Dixies original question why,in light of the fact many or most libs would surrender Israels existence in a heartbeat to appease the islamofacists,do so many of the Jewish population here support the dem party?

Carl....That is the great unanswered question in all of this, and I have heard a number of (somewhat unsatisfactory) explanations from several Jewish friends of mine over the years.

The most prevalent one is "guilt".....in other words jews feel guilty about the plight of the underclasses through empathy over their oppression in Europe and other areas historically placing them politically in the "liberal" camp.......however most of these same Jewish friends live their lives in a very socially and fiscally "conservative" manner.

It simply doesn't compute in my mind that Jewish folks would align themselves with a political party that would throw Israel under the bus in a heartbeat if given the chance.  One could also postulate that American Jewish people are really not that connected with Israel in present terms, but only in an ecumenical sense........

I don't have a really good explanation........

doc
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2008, 06:56:08 AM »
I believe,and correct me if I am wrong,that the Jordanians under King Hussein expelled them for a variety of reason one of which was to create an antagonism towards Israel.

There was something that happened in 1970--for some reason, I recall S Downing (dutch508) commenting upon it in the other place--but I'm not sure what it was, where King Hussein had to expel a whole bunch of "Palestinians" because of their trouble-making.

It wasn't so much the "Palestinians" themselves, but their "leaders" (Yassir Arafat, &c.), who were seeking to destabilize Jordan.  It sticks in my mind that S Downing knows a lot about this particular instance.

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned the former British mandate there, creating Israel and Jordan.  Jordan was meant to be the homeland for any "Palestinians" who got displaced, but their "Palestinian" "leaders" wouldn't let their people go to the new Promised Land; they forced them to stay where they were.

Not exactly the way the Jordan thing happened.  The people expelled from Jordan were not Jordanians and Jordan was not established as a place for all the Muslims in the partitioned Palestine Mandate land to move to.  Prior to the end of the mandate, it was known as 'The Transjordan,' and the population of it on the end of the Mandate was only intended to be the people who lived there, i.e. on the east side of the Jordan River plus the West Bank.  During the Israeli war for independence, a lot of Arab leadership urged the Palestinians to flee the Israeli areas (based apparently on a totally unjustified belief that the combined Arab forces would soon crush the Israelis, and probably so the Arabs could commit unrestrained destruction when they did win, but that's just speculation on my part).  The Israelis, for their part, didn't exactly have clean hands in creating the problem either, as they aggressively went to conquer areas that had not been allotted to them (mostly for sound tactical reasons from their point of view) and although nobody likes to admit it, there was also a certain small number of gross atrocities and a lot of terroristic threats by Israelis to 'encourage' Palestinians to leave.  Neither the Israelis nor the Arabs really accomplished jack shit to end the whole 'Refugee Crisis' despite an occasional attack of good intentions on one side or the other.  What happened in Jordan was that the refugees (whom the Jordanians do NOT view as Jordanians) and their militant hijinx came to be viewed (accurately) by King Hussein, a very smart and perceptive gent actually, as a destabilizing radical force that threatened the internal security of his country, so he kicked their asses out -- "I don't care if you go home, but you can't stay here."
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 09:03:16 AM by DumbAss Tanker »
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2008, 08:25:05 AM »
Thanks, Tanker; I appreciate the illumination.

My "remembrance" of 1970 in Jordan was from old Time and Newsweek magazines, and as one might reasonably imagine, given that those accounts were on-the-spot-at-the-time, they were sketchy and sometimes erroneous.

It's like that HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales thing from December 1941; because Time and Life magazines of that month were based upon speculation, I had always assumed the two ships were sunk WEST of Malaya, when in fact they were sunk EAST of Malaya.

Sometimes I forget that people on-the-spot-at-the-time misinterpret what they're seeing and hearing, or even base their "news" reports upon speculation.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2008, 12:31:20 PM »
Since the time of Trans-Jordan, the "Palestinians" have also been, to one degree or another, thrown out of Egypt, Yemen, UAE, and to a lesser degree Saudi (they are allowed to stay only so long as they work, and don't cause trouble)....

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2008, 01:39:02 PM »
My memory is faulty, but someone once said something like...."the fighting will stop when the Palestinians learn to love themselves more than they hate Israel....."

I believe it was Golda Meir--again, in the mid-1970s--who said peace would never come to the Middle East until the Arabs stopped killing their own children.

Or something like that.

It was Golda Meir and the quote was "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us (Israel)." It is probably one of the most repeated quotes since it distills the entire conflict and is still quite true.
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2008, 01:41:32 PM »
Since the time of Trans-Jordan, the "Palestinians" have also been, to one degree or another, thrown out of Egypt, Yemen, UAE, and to a lesser degree Saudi (they are allowed to stay only so long as they work, and don't cause trouble)....

doc
Which kind of shows how they are used as tools of a larger conflict. They don't seem to always be good houseguests either.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline NHSparky

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2008, 05:59:47 AM »
I recall mid-December 1974, because from a reading of magazines of the period, from the extreme left-wing Nation to the mildly conservative National Review, that appears to have been when a convulsive shift took place; suddenly, among Democrats, liberals, academicians, whatnot, Israel changed from a cherished cause to an enemy.

I'm not sure what happened; it was almost as if the uberfuerhrerliberal of the liberals picked up a red telephone and called all other liberals in America, "Okay, we're doing an about-face here, starting right now, and so fall in line," sometime the middle of December 1974.

Might have had to do a lot with the overwhelming defeat of Republicans at the polls during the 1974 midterms.  Remember, that's the election we got folks like Joe Biden, Pat Leahy, and the like.  Also remember the economy (in no small part thanks to Nixon's price controls) was in the tank, and he had just left office versus getting thrown out of office.

Also recall the 1973-74 oil embargo.  That was the Arab "punishment" for our support of Israel in the Yom Kippur War.
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Offline daveman

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2008, 08:29:42 AM »
it's a horribly misused word these days.  I agree with your definition for the most part, although I have always
operated under the definition of a "neoconservative" as a classical liberal*, complete with an fairly expansionist
foreign policy and belief in somewhat activist government, that was chased to the republican party when the
democrat party became a haven for anti-anti-communitsts.

an "anti-anti-communist" is, IIRC, a term bill buckley coined to describe the leftists that perhaps couldn't bring
themselves to become communists themselves, or to support communism outright, but fought the republicans
at every turn in their efforts to defeat communism
.

not much of a difference in the two definitions, if you ask me.

*"liberal" used to be a rather complimentary term.  today, we would call them "moderates".

Chickenreds.  People who hide behind the protections of the Constitution to call for its downfall, but too cowardly to move to an actual Communist country and live what they advocate, and too cowardly to foment revolution.

"Neocons" has been coopted by the Left to mean "JOOOOS!!"
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 08:31:53 AM by daveman »
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Offline daveman

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2008, 08:31:32 AM »
Don't the Palestinians serve a larger purpose in terms of the Muslim world though? I can't help but think that their plight is somewhat used to serve a greater goal when it comes to making the world answer for supposed injustices against Muslims.
The Arab world will fight Israel to the last Palestinian.


They're cannon fodder, walking ordnance, and PR tools -- nothing more.
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2008, 01:57:57 PM »

The Arab world will fight Israel to the last Palestinian.


They're cannon fodder, walking ordnance, and PR tools -- nothing more.

How I see it, Palestinians are pawns for them. Many Arab states do not like Palestinians, especially Gulf States. Palestinians are often discriminated in Saudi Arabia. 
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2008, 02:04:37 PM »
Ironically, Soviet Union was the first nation to recognize Israel. Soviet Union was bent on destroying Israel and were involved in the wars. Another thing is many Nazis fled to the Middle East, particularly Egypt, Syria, and Iraq. They were ruled by Pan-Arabists, which includes the Baath Party. Pan-Arabism shaped Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat, and Osama bin Laden. These Muslim terrorists evolved from Arab nationalists. Middle East was plagued with terrorism in the 1960s and 1970s, but they were nationalists at the time. Groups like Fatah and PLO are more socialists, than religious. Lot of this problem in the Middle East is rather recent and it is due to the legacy of Fascism and Communism. Hitler and Stalin maybe long dead, but their spirit lives on.   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 02:07:06 PM by Ptarmigan »
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2008, 02:20:23 PM »
Can I just say.......that I appreciate the intelligent conversation on this subject. :-)
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

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Forget change, bring back common sense.
-------------------------------------------------

No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle