Author Topic: Suggestions on generators? (Read 6653 times)

crockspot · « **on:** October 19, 2009, 09:05:18 PM »

I think it's finally time to get a portable generator for power outages. I'm told that during the ice storm about ten years ago, my island had no power for a week. I just packed my chest freezer to the brim, and I have a shallow well, so I depend on power for water and water pressure. I also have two Monitor type vented kerosene heaters for my primary heat, and they won't kick on without power.

So the things I need to power in an outage are:
Refrigerator
Chest freezer
Two heaters (pretty minimal draw I'm guessing, they each have a fan and ignitor)
1/2 hp jet pump that runs for a minute every five gallons of water.
And if the power is out for an extended period, like a week, I will need to run a 1/4 hp sump pump to keep the basement from flooding.

I'm hoping not to spend more than about 400 bucks.

Suggestions? Comments?

bkg · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:10:17 PM »

The items you've mentioned will have a lot of amerage draw, especially if they all hit at the same time. I don't think you're going to find a QUALITY generator that will meet the needs you've mentioned for < $1200.

I had ordered a Honda 5500, but it never came in. So I picked up TWO Onan/Cummin's generators (6500 and a 3500) plus a transfer switch for less than the Honda. I think I paid $2100 total.

crockspot · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:20:16 PM »

I did find this one, it is highly rated on a consumer site:

Generac 5724 (3200 watt)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30196371/i/1/productInfo.web

I'm not above unplugging the fridge when I have to flush the toilet or pump out the basement, especially if it will save me $1500. Hopefully, this thing would never get used at all.

Odin's Hand · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:20:26 PM »

Like bkg said, even with a 5000-watt generator, you'd be looking at enough amps for only about half the things you listed.

I have a Coleman 5000 that I paid $450 for last April and that was a post-winter sale price.

Thor · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:22:01 PM »

Quite honestly, I had been contemplating the same thing with the house that I had that was custom built. I was seriously considering one of those Generac generators that would run off of Natural Gas or Propane. (Preferably natural gas, propane in a gas emergency) The entire setup would have been a significant expenditure, but the generator would not be easily stolen, has automatic monthly "test" times, and seemed like it would have been the right thing. During a severe power outage in St Paul, MN, the cable company got generators to keep the cable system running. I mounted one of them on a utility pole, above the CATV power supply, chained and locked, and it "disappeared". It turns out that not only was the cable company getting generators stolen, but also many homeowners.

This is one like I was looking at:

bkg · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:25:33 PM »

Do some reading here:

http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/wattageguide.html
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/calculations.html

Bear in mind that most generators are listed as PEAK power. I would guess you'll need at least 6500 continuous to run your list.

Don't buy less than you need. It's wasted money.

Thor is spot on WRT to propane/Nat gas conversions. It's on the list for my 6500... someday.

formerlurker · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:55:49 PM »

The heaters suck a great deal of watts. We had an ice storm last winter where we were out of power for 8 days. We have a 5,500 generator with 8,000+ starting watts that we could plug the boiler, fridge, tv and some lamps to. I had to unplug the fridge to run the coffee maker. You would be surprised how much watts your everyday appliances use.

You will have to go really big to run all the things you have listed.

Gratiot · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2009, 10:08:17 PM »

Quote from: crockspot on October 19, 2009, 09:05:18 PM

So the things I need to power in an outage are:
Refrigerator
Chest freezer
Two heaters (pretty minimal draw I'm guessing, they each have a fan and ignitor)
1/2 hp jet pump that runs for a minute every five gallons of water.
And if the power is out for an extended period, like a week, I will need to run a 1/4 hp sump pump to keep the basement from flooding.

I'm hoping not to spend more than about 400 bucks.

Suggestions? Comments?

How close are your neighbors, will obscene noise levels be an issue?

With all that you have listed, a $400 generator wouldn't even be in the ball park. You're easily looking at spending 2-3x that. Sorry.

Gratiot · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2009, 10:16:19 PM »

Quote from: Thor on October 19, 2009, 09:22:01 PM

Quite honestly, I had been contemplating the same thing with the house that I had that was custom built. I was seriously considering one of those Generac generators that would run off of Natural Gas or Propane.

....During a severe power outage in St Paul, MN, the cable company got generators to keep the cable system running. I mounted one of them on a utility pole, above the CATV power supply, chained and locked, and it "disappeared". It turns out that not only was the cable company getting generators stolen, but also many homeowners.

Residential automatic standby generators are a marvelous blessing

But if someone was hopefully looking at only a $400 expense, they might be a little out of the price range... I think since i installed one at my grandfathers a few years ago, he still goes outside to watch it run it's self-diagnostic start up on saturday mornings

Spot on about generators being a beckoning call for thieves. People do cruise neighborhoods just listening for generators to come back and steal, and regularly do so.

debk · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2009, 10:48:19 PM »

Check Craig's List.

Also check in your local/area paper for auctions for manufacturing companies (small businesses) that are going out of business.

The other half is a facilitator between manufacturing businesses and a auction company that specializes in manufacturing business liquidation.

He did one last week that I helped him with. It was a family owned business, and the owners are either past retirement age or close, and none of the next generation wanted to continue to run the business. A forklift sold for just a couple of hundred dollars! When it's a total business liquidation, like this one was....all items are sold...regardless of how low the bids are.

You just never know what you can pick up at those things....most of the buyers will turn around and sell what they bought and make money.

NHSparky · « **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2009, 06:46:48 AM »

I've got a Coleman--6500 watts normal load, 8000 watts starting surge. Cost me $800.

HOWEVER...

I would HIGHLY recommend a transfer switch. You can pretty easily do it yourself, including the mounting and wiring. Those go for about $150-200. Beats having an electrician come in and disconnect your main and reconnect when power comes back. And if you think of backfeeding, you will NOT like what happens. Do NOT be one of those assholes who backfeeds into your dryer plug and forgets to open the main breaker while someone is trying to work on the line.

zeitgeist · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2009, 07:52:57 AM »

Quote from: NHSparky on October 20, 2009, 06:46:48 AM

I've got a Coleman--6500 watts normal load, 8000 watts starting surge. Cost me $800.

HOWEVER...

I would HIGHLY recommend a transfer switch. You can pretty easily do it yourself, including the mounting and wiring. Those go for about $150-200. Beats having an electrician come in and disconnect your main and reconnect when power comes back. And if you think of backfeeding, you will NOT like what happens. Do NOT be one of those assholes who backfeeds into your dryer plug and forgets to open the main breaker while someone is trying to work on the line.

Ditto the transfer switch. I don't do electricity so I had mine wired. It was cheap peace of mind. I have a 5k Coleman which I can switch circuits on depending on season. In winter I switch to the boiler, summer to the freezer. Other than that there is enough reserve to run a few lights and the fridge. Finding a good used unit should be no challenge on craigslist or the classified guides like Uncle Henry's. People who buy them tend to have short memories and sell them when they 'get in the way'.

That said I would make a couple observations: I did put a wheel kit on the beast. Unless you plan on building a storage shack outside it is a bit of a pain to move. When we had a transient outage this sumer I pulled it out to the patio and fired it up. Yes, there is noise, however, even though I run the unit a couple times a year, this time I had a puddle of oil on the patio. It appears a seal has gone bad. Now the question, fix or farm the repair out?? Anyone ever do a seal job on a 10 hp Tecumseh without the proper pullers?

NHSparky · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2009, 08:25:50 AM »

Find a reputable small engine repair shop near you and have it done. You know there are plenty of places up here that do that kind of stuff, but of course you don't need me to tell you to do it now and avoid the rush.

Wineslob · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2009, 09:54:21 AM »

Try Small Engine Warehouse. An example:

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=CTG5000&desc=Coleman-Powermate%20Generator%20%205000/6250%20watt%2010hp%20Tecumseh,%20Cast%20Iron%20Sleeve,%20LOS

Here's another at Overstock:

http://www.overstock.com/Auto-Parts/PowerMax-8500-watt-16-Hp-Electric-Start-Generator/3572929/product.html

zeitgeist · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2009, 10:55:46 AM »

Quote from: NHSparky on October 20, 2009, 08:25:50 AM

Find a reputable small engine repair shop near you and have it done. You know there are plenty of places up here that do that kind of stuff, but of course you don't need me to tell you to do it now and avoid the rush.

Probably right Sparky. I have been avoiding it for a while so I need to get it resolved, in the event of a real emergency keeping it supplied with oil would be a greater challenge than filling the gas.

As an aside, last spring I wanted to have the blower tuned and belts changed. I had used this place on Route One before for the lawn tractor, it was always free pick up and delivery, well sir, not any more, they quoted me $60.00 pick up and delivery. I have yet to contact the other place further down to see what their policy is, they have only recently changed ownership and I have never had to have them pick up and deliver.

Again, there is more to a generator than sometimes meets the eye. As I mentioned earlier I have a 5k Coleman which I put wheels on (check Wineslob's link to see what it looks like without wheels, although mine is an older model without the twist plug option ( 220V ). Then note the weight about 135 lb, which, in my book, makes it a two man lift if you want to get it into a non lift truck for service. A bike or snowmobile trailer with gate is far preferred to a honkin' four wheel drive pick up ( not that there is anything wrong with that ) when you have to move stuff unless you are built like Gorilla Monsoon with large friends.

Also one needs to factor in the cost of good patch cord, weather head and hard line ( mine was a 4 wire 220V, at about fifty feet long 'cause it had to go across the house....) to the transfer switch. Copper ain't cheap. These costs do mount up fast. My patch cord is about twenty feet so I can get the unit a ways away from the house. (Noise and smell).

Texacon · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2009, 11:05:26 AM »

Talking about generator thieves ...

During hurricane Ike we were all on generators (Rita too but that is beside the point). In a town not far from here some thieving bastards were driving around at night looking for generators to steal and they found one running in a garage and it wasn't chained up.

To keep from waking the home owner they started the lawn mower sitting there then unplugged and stole the generator! The home owner woke up a couple of times thinking his 'generator' didn't sound right but blew it off until he tried to turn on a light.

If a thief is smart enough to do that they should get a job, I'm sure they are management material! LOL

KC

Chris_ · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2009, 12:06:26 PM »

We have an old Honda EX 5500, which is a model that is not built in its current configuration any longer, and it is great........it will actually produce over 6500 watts at constant load, and is so quiet that if it is running in the garage you can't hear it in the house with the door closed. It will run for about 10 hours on a tank of gas, is liquid cooled, and portable to the extent that it is on wheels (It weighs around 500 pounds).

During the big ice storm here in Kansas City in 2001, we were without power for close to two weeks, and it ran the following:

Refrigerator
Forced air gas furnace
Freezer
TV, stereo, all the lights in the house
Microwave
Sump pump.
It would also run one surface burner on the electric range if we turned the furnace off for a while.

We were the only house in the area with power and heat, and we had the neighbors over to keep warm, and prepare meals, etc.

The problem that we encountered was getting gasoline for it during the outage, as the power was off over such a wide area, I had to drive at times over thirty miles to get my gas cans filled........

Back in the late 80s when this model was made, it sold for around $2199, so I would suppose that a similiar capacity model by Honda would probably run twice that much today, but you might find a used one somewhere, and if it needed repair, parts are readily available (but expensive).

Needless to say, I doubt that you will find anything with the capacity that you need for $400, unless you locate one that needs repair, and do it yourself.

doc

NHSparky · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2009, 12:26:16 PM »

Quote from: zeitgeist on October 20, 2009, 10:55:46 AM

As an aside, last spring I wanted to have the blower tuned and belts changed. I had used this place on Route One before for the lawn tractor, it was always free pick up and delivery, well sir, not any more, they quoted me $60.00 pick up and delivery. I have yet to contact the other place further down to see what their policy is, they have only recently changed ownership and I have never had to have them pick up and deliver.

Not Philbricks (or are they 179 Seacoast Power), by any chance? Stay the hell away from them.

zeitgeist · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2009, 12:56:22 PM »

Quote from: NHSparky on October 20, 2009, 12:26:16 PM

Not Philbricks (or are they 179 Seacoast Power), by any chance? Stay the hell away from them.

You are correct, they are 179 Seacoast Power now. What is the skinny on them? I have dealt with them when they were Philly in the past. Never had a problem with them.

NHSparky · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:20:05 PM »

Quote from: zeitgeist on October 20, 2009, 12:56:22 PM

You are correct, they are 179 Seacoast Power now. What is the skinny on them? I have dealt with them when they were Philly in the past. Never had a problem with them.

A co-worker of mine was badly ripped off by them.

zeitgeist · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:26:26 PM »

Quote from: NHSparky on October 20, 2009, 01:20:05 PM

A co-worker of mine was badly ripped off by them.

Repair work or buying? I bought a new mower this spring and when I checked with them I kept on going to the Homeless despot where I got the same unit for a couple bills less .......

Come to think of it one of the BIL bought a snowblower from them which seezed the first time he used it and all they would do was provide a short block ( but they might have still been Philly's). BTW oil is a great lubricant.

Eupher · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:40:10 PM »

Quote from: crockspot on October 19, 2009, 09:20:16 PM

I did find this one, it is highly rated on a consumer site:

Generac 5724 (3200 watt)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30196371/i/1/productInfo.web

I'm not above unplugging the fridge when I have to flush the toilet or pump out the basement, especially if it will save me $1500. Hopefully, this thing would never get used at all.

Generac is a highly popular (translation - there's a huge distribution network) generator, but you have to be careful about a couple things. First, Generac offers a cabinet made of aluminum in certain areas of the country, namely close to the sea. They do that because their steel cabinet has nasty tendency to rust out.

The engine in the Generac has valves that have to be manually adjusted. For that reason, I favor the Kohler 12RES, which has hydraulic lifters - no need to pony up those bucks to have someone do that.

My Kohler is a 12KW model, but I wanted something that was going to power the heat, the lights, garage door openers, water heater, sump pump, oven, two freezers, a refrigerator, and lots of other things that are nice-to-haves. The transfer switch was a requirement.

The big money comes when you have to hire a licensed electrician to wire all this stuff. But I've got peace of mind knowing that when the lights go out, they go out for a fraction of a second before the generator kicks on.

ETA: My Kohler is powered by LP gas. Can't get natural gas out here because we live in the boonies, but I have a big-assed 500 gallon LP tank that the Kohler just sips from.

NHSparky · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:41:21 PM »

Quote from: zeitgeist on October 20, 2009, 01:26:26 PM

Repair work or buying? I bought a new mower this spring and when I checked with them I kept on going to the Homeless despot where I got the same unit for a couple bills less .......

Come to think of it one of the BIL bought a snowblower from them which seezed the first time he used it and all they would do was provide a short block ( but they might have still been Philly's). BTW oil is a great lubricant.

Repair. For starters, they tried to charge him over $200 to "tune up" his snowthrower.

Doc · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:55:54 PM »

Quote from: Eupher on October 20, 2009, 01:40:10 PM

knowing that when the lights go out, they go out for a fraction of a second before the generator kicks on.

ETA: My Kohler is powered by LP gas. Can't get natural gas out here because we live in the boonies, but I have a big-assed 500 gallon LP tank that the Kohler just sips from.

Minor nitpick......the fastest genset/transfer switch combination takes an absolute minimum of 8 seconds to come on line after an outage (hospital rated units)........the average is around fifteen to twenty seconds.

By the time that the transfer switch senses that an outage has occurred (usually 2 seconds), and the generator engine starts and comes up to proper RPM (usually about 4 seconds at the very best), and the transfer switch "syncs" the voltage and 60 cycle current, you have the eight second minimum. Anything less and you run the risk of powering your load with lower than necessary voltage (bad), something other than 60 cycle AC (even worse), and unless the governor has stabilized the engine speed, your output in both voltage and frequency will vary all over the map (disastrous).......

doc

On edit: If I were going to buy a "full power" genset for my home that was the absolute best in reliability and efficiency, Cummins-Onan would be what I would recommend. They ain't cheap, but they are the best........

zeitgeist · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2009, 01:58:18 PM »

Quote from: NHSparky on October 20, 2009, 01:41:21 PM

Repair. For starters, they tried to charge him over $200 to "tune up" his snowthrower.

I just checked them out.

They are getting $75.00 / hour labor. I don't think the Benz dealer gets much more than that!!

( their pick up and delivery is only $40.00 ) and they have a $40.00 fee for an estimate..........

Bottom line ladies and gentleman, skip sending the kids to college, enroll them in Small Engine Repair at the local voc tech.

( The seal is $8.00 )

News:

Author Topic: Suggestions on generators? (Read 6653 times)