Author Topic: Trip - You and Yellowstone  (Read 60045 times)

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Offline Billy_Bob

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #225 on: May 05, 2012, 09:02:51 PM »
I'm more concerned over the Long Valley caldera since it's kind of in my backyard.  I'm in Las Vegas, NV.  I'm sure the ash fall would be oh-so-wonderful near us.

Initially that would.. just as Yellowstone would make me have a bad day.. (I live less than 200 miles from it)  that said, its the long term affects of a prolonged eruption which will kill millions.. The initial eruption will kill those close. The ash and fall out those within 2-5 hundred miles will be greatly affected.  Its the sulfur dioxide and particulate matter high in the atmosphere that will rapidly cool the planet.  Then its a matter of who prepared for a long period of reduced food growing seasons who will survive.

The actual eruption will be minor in comparison to the long term problems...

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #226 on: May 06, 2012, 12:08:24 PM »
Initially that would.. just as Yellowstone would make me have a bad day.. (I live less than 200 miles from it)  that said, its the long term affects of a prolonged eruption which will kill millions.. The initial eruption will kill those close. The ash and fall out those within 2-5 hundred miles will be greatly affected.  Its the sulfur dioxide and particulate matter high in the atmosphere that will rapidly cool the planet.  Then its a matter of who prepared for a long period of reduced food growing seasons who will survive.

The actual eruption will be minor in comparison to the long term problems...

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Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #227 on: May 07, 2012, 05:41:30 PM »


Hey, Gepetto, you keep striking out, despite your double at-bats.  No, unlike "some", I don't need to fabricate false support for my position in such a manner.

You don't have any contribution to the thread by any chance, do you?  Or is your stock-in-trade purely ad hom gibberish and drool?


Incidentally, have you found any reference yet to back your claim that the Constitution is not based on "unalienable rights", and that the founding fathers were frauds when they wrote the Declaration of Independence? Surely there must be some flaky Leftist Progressive that has so little understanding of the Constitution that they actually would claim such a thing, no?


Offline Carl

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #228 on: May 08, 2012, 04:28:03 AM »
Trip,you have been told to knock that crap off in this forum by two different staff members...now three.
It would be wise that you listen.

Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #229 on: May 08, 2012, 06:13:55 AM »
Trip,you have been told to knock that crap off in this forum by two different staff members...now three.
It would be wise that you listen.


I'm sorry, what? I have this clown,  following me around, personally attacking me on whatever forum, and accusing me of all sort of nonsense.

Why do you see fit to weigh in now against me, after he has plastered the same image in numerous threads making a false accusation, and threads he was in no way participating in?

What exactly are you telling me to "knock off" here?  What "crap"? Defending myself? Knock off the truth? What exactly?



 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:36:37 AM by Trip »

Offline Carl

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #230 on: May 08, 2012, 07:19:23 AM »
Discussions of your Constitutional theories,do not do it in Science Club.

Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #231 on: May 08, 2012, 08:00:22 AM »
Discussions of your Constitutional theories,do not do it in Science Club.

It is not *my* constitutional theory;  it is a fact of the American constitution itself and is supported by numerous writings on the matter, and constitutional law as well. And I only asked if he yet found any reference at all to support his own claim that the Constitution is NOT founded on "unalienable rights".  

I have no intention of actually discussing that topic here, though it may be a worthy discussion topic on a political forum. I do sincerely apologize if my aside gave the impression I was intending to debate that here.


Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »
I repeat, Billy_Bob, what do we do?  Why are you still living in the initial kill zone if all signs are pointing at a massive eruption in the near future?
 

He lives in the vicinity of Yellowstone because that is where his house is, and that is where his family settled, and where he was when we began to consider the seismic data on January 25th 2011.


What the USGS is saying publicly obviously does not jibe with what you and Trip know to be true.  

That's not true actually. What the USGS is saying, and has been saying, does jibe with what BB and I have said.  We know that there has been an ongoing escalation of Yellowstone volcanism since 2003, which has involved continuing uplift, and quake swarms, which even the USGS have indicated are the result of magma migration, and not hydrothermal activity.

What the USGS has not said is the full extent of their concern, and they have an obligation to not speak their concerns, as we've indicated in this thread, due to the political filtration of statements through the "Scientific Integrity" policy.

Nonetheless, what USGS has said publicly does indeed "jibe with" what BB and I have said.


Are you guys still working from the two different (public and actual) data sets?


Still?  Is this like, "do you still beat your wife?"

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the data BB and I have access to is obviously less than what USGS itself has.

You seem to want to imply that BB and I are reaching conclusions that differ from the USGS geologists. This is untrue.

In fact, at the onset, we went and corroborated our concerns with USGS geologists attached to Yellowstone, without any absolute conclusions yet made by us, because we knew we didn't have all the relevant information to do so.  Our concerns and beliefs were subsequently validated, and continue to be so, by the continuing heightened state of alarm regarding YS, even involving relocation of the data and those geologists themselves to a more remote location, not to mention the continuing GPS displacement, and regional quake activity.
 


« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:14:36 PM by Trip »

Offline wasp69

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2012, 05:12:21 PM »
That's not true actually. What the USGS is saying, and has been saying, does jibe with what BB and I have said.  We know that there has been an ongoing escalation of Yellowstone volcanism since 2003, which has involved continuing uplift, and quake swarms, which even the USGS have indicated are the result of magma migration, and not hydrothermal activity.

What the USGS has not said is the full extent of their concern, and they have an obligation to not speak their concerns, as we've indicated in this thread, due to the political filtration of statements through the "Scientific Integrity" policy.

Nonetheless, what USGS has said publicly does indeed "jibe with" what BB and I have said.

Now, wait a minute, you said in the second paragraph that the USGS has not stated the full extent of their concerns publicly.  If that is the case, wouldn't it be true that what they (USGS) are saying does not exactly line up with what you and Billy_Bob are saying?

Quote
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the data BB and I have access to is obviously less than what USGS itself has.

You seem to want to imply that BB and I are reaching conclusions that differ from the USGS geologists. This is untrue.

No, that is not what I am saying at all.  You have been very clear, for well over a year now, that the USGS is not being forthcoming about what is going on and you had an indirect contact through a friend that said public updates were off the table.  That, to me, implies that they are not putting forth a clear picture and they are withholding more damning data.  Am I wrong?

Quote
In fact, at the onset, we went and corroborated our concerns with USGS geologists attached to Yellowstone, without any absolute conclusions yet made by us, because we knew we didn't have all the relevant information to do so.  Our concerns and beliefs were subsequently validated, and continue to be so, by the continuing heightened state of alarm regarding YS, even involving relocation of the data and those geologists themselves to a more remote location, not to mention the continuing GPS displacement, and regional quake activity.

So, was your indirect contact able to tell you more without putting themselves at personal risk?  Is the USGS putting out more data but not really saying anything about it?
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

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A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #234 on: May 10, 2012, 06:58:22 PM »
Now, wait a minute, you said in the second paragraph that the USGS has not stated the full extent of their concerns publicly.  If that is the case, wouldn't it be true that what they (USGS) are saying does not exactly line up with what you and Billy_Bob are saying?

No, because evertying they've specifically said about Yellowstone, is incorporated in what we've indicated.

No, that is not what I am saying at all.  You have been very clear, for well over a year now, that the USGS is not being forthcoming about what is going on and you had an indirect contact through a friend that said public updates were off the table.  That, to me, implies that they are not putting forth a clear picture and they are withholding more damning data.  Am I wrong?

They are not putting forth their accurate or full appraisal of what is going on.

'Data' in and of itself is often useless. Each analyticalmethods must be reduce the data to some usable form to enable its use. There is also other information and newer sources of information that are not being represented.  Of itself, this is not necessarily indicative of a lock-down because the public would have no use for much of the data, nor any means to interpret it, having no knowledge of the particular survey parameters.

"Transparency" can quickly become a relative thing. Overall the reduction and analysis of the data are what have signicance to the public.

So, was your indirect contact able to tell you more without putting themselves at personal risk?  Is the USGS putting out more data but not really saying anything about it?

They are getting more data, by various means, and we're not getting thorough appraisals of that data by public channels. For instance they did at least 2 direct seismic refraction surveys, and we really have not heard the implication of those surveys, in the form of tomographic mappings,  and especially not in regard to an update on the chamber melt constituency.

We also know  that since our contact received a reprimand with his job threatened, and the relocation to Houston, we have not heard anything at all by that means. A decades long familial friendship has been discarded in order to maintain absolute silence.


Offline rich_t

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #235 on: May 10, 2012, 07:30:54 PM »
Damn it.  I misplaced my tinfoil hat again!

 :popcorn:
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Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #236 on: May 10, 2012, 07:53:35 PM »
Damn it.  I misplaced my tinfoil hat again!

 :popcorn:

I'm a geologist and geophysicist. What are you? See, "tinfoil" doesn't apply when people are actually doing good science, and that science is being relied upon.    The only thing at play here is your own fear of the facts.


Offline wasp69

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2012, 12:32:07 PM »
No, because evertying they've specifically said about Yellowstone, is incorporated in what we've indicated.

Okay, understood.

Quote
They are not putting forth their accurate or full appraisal of what is going on.

'Data' in and of itself is often useless. Each analyticalmethods must be reduce the data to some usable form to enable its use. There is also other information and newer sources of information that are not being represented.  Of itself, this is not necessarily indicative of a lock-down because the public would have no use for much of the data, nor any means to interpret it, having no knowledge of the particular survey parameters.

"Transparency" can quickly become a relative thing. Overall the reduction and analysis of the data are what have signicance to the public.

So the USGS is not putting forth all of the data they normally do?  You don't think they're hiding anything or watering down what they put out to the public, do you?

Quote
They are getting more data, by various means, and we're not getting thorough appraisals of that data by public channels. For instance they did at least 2 direct seismic refraction surveys, and we really have not heard the implication of those surveys, in the form of tomographic mappings,  and especially not in regard to an update on the chamber melt constituency.

I remember a seismic refraction survey being done last year (January), have they released the findings from that?  If there is something in the public domain, is it accurate in your opinion?

Quote
We also know  that since our contact received a reprimand with his job threatened, and the relocation to Houston, we have not heard anything at all by that means. A decades long familial friendship has been discarded in order to maintain absolute silence.

Why did that happen?  Was it for talking to you and Billy_Bob?
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

C.S. Lewis

A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2012, 01:48:30 PM »
So the USGS is not putting forth all of the data they normally do?  You don't think they're hiding anything or watering down what they put out to the public, do you?

I've not made any claims about them withholding data, but then the data  itself is not of any real use to the public at large on its own.  

I'm nor really interested in asserting any sort of active "conspiracy" or "cover-up", as this only implies a conclusion, rather than positively arguing what the facts and data indicate. Ultimately such an approach is just an enormous waste of everyone's time, my own included.  Despite this, I've recognized that the USGS has seemed relucatant to address cutting edge data, which may be a function of bureaucratic constraints on the open discussion of science imposed by the "Scientific Integrity" memorandum. An example of this would be the 2009 "Naked Science: Super Volcano" documentary, actually referencing on a monitor inSAR data that was as old as 1996-2000.

I do believe, and even know to a certainty, that they are "watering down" their public statements regarding the implications of that data.
I remember a seismic refraction survey being done last year (January), have they released the findings from that?  If there is something in the public domain, is it accurate in your opinion?

They actually have not publicly acknowledged that January 2011 survey, and even denied it ever occurred in email contact, while turning around and repeatedly asking for, quote, "specific locations, equipment and vehicles types, investigator names, etc" for a survey that allegedly did not occur. They were looking for the source of the leak... and they eventually did find it.  

Why did that happen?  Was it for talking to you and Billy_Bob?

Yes, despite the fact that no data, nor conclusions regarding that data, nor any clear indication as to the cause of their focus was ever stated in their own words , the contact was reprimanded, and job threatened.  In that reprimand, statements were included from an online IRC chat room, and ties were made to these statements to real individual's names.

Shortly thereafter both BB and myself had our IP's banned on the USGS site, for a period of a week plus. I managed to bypass my IP ban.  However BB contacted the site webmaster directly, who had "no idea" why the IP bans were instituted, recognizing that the there had been no inappropriate use of the site, and therefore removed those IP bans.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:03:59 PM by Trip »

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #239 on: May 11, 2012, 04:34:39 PM »
.......Shortly thereafter both BB and myself had our IP's banned on the USGS site, for a period of a week plus. I managed to bypass my IP ban.  However BB contacted the site webmaster directly, who had "no idea" why the IP bans were instituted, recognizing that the there had been no inappropriate use of the site, and therefore removed those IP bans.


Honest to the good Lord, you just can't make this shit up if you wanted to.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #240 on: May 11, 2012, 08:09:51 PM »
I'm a geologist and geophysicist. What are you? See, "tinfoil" doesn't apply when people are actually doing good science, and that science is being relied upon.    The only thing at play here is your own fear of the facts.



What makes you think my comment was directed at you?

 :whatever:

What fear of the facts are you assuming that I have?
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Offline Billy_Bob

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2012, 01:25:59 PM »
What I find stunning is the absolute obtuse nature some here have to things they do not understand.

I have spent many years watching Yellowstone, learning about it, watching changes, watching events....

You all can keep your tinfoil...  your gonna need it to survive when it goes...

I'm sure the all knowing sock puppet who posted above will tell you...http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,54746.0/msg,862752.html
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 01:29:59 PM by Billy_Bob »

Offline Trip

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #242 on: May 13, 2012, 11:30:11 AM »
Earlier in this thread TVDoc and I had an exchange regarding the corruption of the scientific process, as applied to NASA, Climate science, and the geosciences of Yellowstone.  This is an examination of the Yellowstone  Hazard Response Protocols that furthers that discussion.


Protocols for
Geologic Hazards Response
by the Yellowstone Volcano Observatory


http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1351/

The above document was approved for publication June 9, 2010, and reflects the influence of the Presidential Memorandum on "Scientific Integrity" issued the previous year.

What's interesting about this document is that it demonstrates an enormous "loophole" in between response protocols and actual volcanic activity, with this loophole allowing for the political influence upon publicly stated scientific conclusions.


IN section 4e, that document discusses "Information Releases":

  • As of March 2010, YVO issues a monthly update on the status of the Yellowstone volcano on or around the first of each month. The update synthesizes the monitoring information and expert opinion solicited from YVO cooperators and collaborators. After a notable earthquake, earthquake swarm, hydrothermal explosion or other geological event, the YVO may choose to release an information statement that provides details on the event and possible outcomes. During an event response or an upgrade in alert level, YVO will release daily updates.

    Currently, the UUSS policy is to issue a press release after any earthquake greater than magnitude 3.5 within the UUSS reporting area for the Yellowstone region. They typically do the same after the onset of any notable earthquake swarm, especially those that attract public interest or include felt events. YVO then re-issues the press release as an information statement; YVO might include in the information statement additional content as it relates to potential volcanism. Press releases by any of the three YVO partners are normally vetted through the other partners. As discussed above, during a Volcano Advisory or Watch, YVO will release daily updates. Any separate press releases by the USGS, YNP, or UU will be closely coordinated with the public information team (or the Joint Information Center organized through the ICS structure) if there is the potential for related volcanic activity.


The problem with the above, is that the "extraordinary caldera deformation" was a precursor which occurred over a period of 6 years (and actually continues today), and then led to a series of minor quakes, quake swarms (with no eruption), few of which triggered any sort of 3.5 level notification response, and these swarms only involved voluntary public statement anyway. Yet all these events, and more, have been working toward the same end over an extended period of time.

This bureaucratic warning system, and its alert triggers, is not framed to address this sort of extended geologic time frame.

Furthermore, the widespread evidences of "volcanic tremors" are not actually localized quakes, and do not trigger any absolute response, yet they are an ominous precursor to volcanic activity, particularly given the lengthy period of "extraordinary caldera deformation" associated with those tremors.  Given this, the cumulative impact of events, when examined by these bureaucratic standards, does not trigger any obligatory response with a public statement, nor disclosure.

Even had all events occurred with in a given time-frame, the response would still remain discretionary, and subject to political, bureaucratic oversight.

What we have here is the public's "Right to Know" being suppressed by the bureaucratic process and somewhat loose and arbitrary standards, with that bureaucratic process greatly inhibiting any sort of candid statement. This has become even more relevant because the activation of Yellowstone's volcanism has been such a gradual and lengthy process, over nearly a decade. The extended time-frame allows political oversight to dismiss the events occurring over extended periods, as not having any urgency to them.

These same oversights are glaringly obvious in the very next paragraph, section 5, "Alert Notification Scheme and Decision Criteria". Here they contrast Yellowstone to "many stratovolcanoes" regarding behavior, to justify this even-more-lax notification "scheme", while Yellowstone clearly is not any sort of stratovolcano. They're using the stratovolcano framework to evaluate Yellowstone - which is quite probably a very dangerous paradigm.

YVO's Hazards Response scheme is not only tailored to stratovolcano conditions, but even when those 3 conditions ( EQ swarm, rapid displacement, significant hydrothermal explosion ) are met in a short period of time, the response still remains discretionary, i.e. subject to political input!

The result is, even if one or two geologists professionals, directly attached to Yellowstone, were to recognize serious warning signals and cause for concern, these would be muted by the overall stratification of the "vetting process", which has undue influence by political parties, who are not scientists. Yellowstone's monthly status has never been anything but "Normal/Green", and is likely to be as useful as the 'idiot gages" on a car dashboard.

What we have here is the bureaucratic process at its most dangerous. This is yet another example of the corruption of the scientific process by its politicization, also seen in regard to "Climate Change", NASA policy, and even the actions of the FDA and other government agencies.

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #243 on: May 13, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »
Earlier in this thread TVDoc and I had an exchange regarding the corruption of the scientific process, as applied to NASA, Climate science, and the geosciences of Yellowstone.  This is an examination of the Yellowstone  Hazard Response Protocols that furthers that discussion.


True.......

And as a note to the remainder of the members, I reopened this thread to continue the discussion of this premise as well as Yellowstone specifically, and vulcanology in general, as both Trip and Billy Bob have some expertise in this area (they are NOT the same person)....if members wish to present alternative views of the material presented, feel free to do so, however, confine it to the subject please.

There are a number of you which take issue with Trip's constitutional positions.....understood.....but this is not the place for that, start another thread, if you desire to discuss those.

Granted, this is not my field, however, as a physicist, I find the discussion interesting, as do other members.  As a service to the general membership, and as an educational tool, I'd like to see this discussion continue, subject to the framework that I've established, for the general enlightenment of those who wish to participate.

Other subjects, personal grudges, etc., can take place elsewhere.....

That is all......

doc
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #244 on: May 13, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »
I find it a fascinating discussion.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #245 on: May 13, 2012, 01:18:39 PM »
What I find stunning is the absolute obtuse nature some here have to things they do not understand.

I have spent many years watching Yellowstone, learning about it, watching changes, watching events....

You all can keep your tinfoil...  your gonna need it to survive when it goes...

I'm sure the all knowing sock puppet who posted above will tell you...http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,54746.0/msg,862752.html

Do not misconstrue what many regard as hyperbole,doomsday predictions,insinuated cover ups and lack of evidence of reality as being obtuse,nor presume you have to lecture anyone here.
Add insight you may have based on actual knowledge and there is no problem...go off onto opinions and expect them to be challenged.
It is not a hard recipe to follow.

Offline Billy_Bob

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #246 on: May 13, 2012, 01:23:10 PM »
Do not misconstrue what many regard as hyperbole,doomsday predictions,insinuated cover ups and lack of evidence of reality as being obtuse,nor presume you have to lecture anyone here.
Add insight you may have based on actual knowledge and there is no problem...go off onto opinions and expect them to be challenged.
It is not a hard recipe to follow.

So... why admonish me and not those imitating a sock puppet?

they give no input just silly crap... yet you choose me to admonish? No hyperbol, no doomsday, just facts as i have viewed them..

rather interesting choice.... and telling
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 01:27:04 PM by Billy_Bob »

Offline Carl

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #247 on: May 13, 2012, 01:36:12 PM »
So... why admonish me and not those imitating a sock puppet?

they give no input just silly crap... yet you choose me to admonish? No hyperbol, no doomsday, just facts as i have viewed them..

rather interesting choice.... and telling

Quite honestly because you chose to lash out at anyone in disagreement as being obtuse,your words and nothing more then a reminder that when opinion moves away from fact it needs to be stated as such and accepting of differing ones.
Get the chip off the shoulder and understand what give and take of ideas are.
Enough said and carry on with whatever facts you wish to present and clearly explain what your personal interpretation of them may be and be willing to accept some may disagree.
It really is simple so just do it.

If you are here to simply expect people to take your word as gospel and call any disagreement stupid then it won`t get far and whatever valid points you may have will get lost. :cheersmate:

Offline Billy_Bob

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #248 on: May 13, 2012, 02:03:29 PM »
Quite honestly because you chose to lash out at anyone in disagreement as being obtuse,your words and nothing more then a reminder that when opinion moves away from fact it needs to be stated as such and accepting of differing ones.
Get the chip off the shoulder and understand what give and take of ideas are.
Enough said and carry on with whatever facts you wish to present and clearly explain what your personal interpretation of them may be and be willing to accept some may disagree.
It really is simple so just do it.

If you are here to simply expect people to take your word as gospel and call any disagreement stupid then it won`t get far and whatever valid points you may have will get lost. :cheersmate:

The protection of the establishment is the same problem we have in politics today..  Those good ol boys are ok to demean and not address the facts presented.. Then as a persons of power they do not admonish those in the club, they admonish the person who is giving them facts...  where did Mr sock puppet address even one fact?  again behavior is telling...

I dont expect people to take me at my word,  I expect them to treat me as an adult, and respond as an adult, addressing facts, or even expressing a reason for their not giving the assertions credence.... something that is not being equally distributed here..

In any event I now see how this site is moderated and how it is applied..
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 02:05:47 PM by Billy_Bob »

Offline obumazombie

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Re: Trip - You and Yellowstone
« Reply #249 on: May 13, 2012, 02:12:45 PM »
I've voiced problems with moderators before on other sites. It never got me too far. From what I have seen here, and other places, this is the best moderation team on the net.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.