To produce or not produce? (undergroundpanther rages on)

[Carl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2976355

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 02:43 PM
Original message
To produce or not produce?   
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Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 02:51 PM by undergroundpanther
Everyday I hear it, Get a job succeed be"productive" It is the same old lines one would read on a motivational poster.Would 1 more person making stuff we do not need shuffling paper make this world better? If so for WHOM?

What if what is required to be "productive" is intolerable to you?
I myself do NOT want to get involved in the job "market" because I can't stand corporate culture.It HURTS me. I don't want to produce for any corporation, I hate corporations. I hate bullies. And corporate culture is crazy- making and it is psychopathic.
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/corpru.html


What if a person just wants their own time for them self instead of feeding an insatiable capricious corporation that could care less if they live or die.Is that really so bad?


What if I want my time to contemplate this culture of make believe, heal at my own pace and create for my pleasure and health and live in peace,care for my friends and strangers,explore the unknown to not be harangued by busybody people trying to"fix" me, change me, telling to "be somebody" or "make it" as in a "success" story.
I can't take the stress..of that kind of success.

To me the form of "success" advocate for the people in mental health rehab,homeless shelters, would kill me literally.I have had enough trauma and domination by assholes so now I detect and despise bullies and exploiters with an unquenchable hatred.. So I openly say, I want NONE of the thing called a job, or 'success'.I will resist it for my own sake. With every advance in income comes more work more labor more toil to maintain it and survive.. It never ends. Success is a soul sucking TRAP.

From a historical perspective, the cultural norm placing a positive moral value on doing a good job because work has intrinsic value for its own sake was a relatively recent development (Lipset, 1990). Work, for much of the ancient history of the human race, has been hard and degrading. Working hard--in the absence of compulsion--was not the norm for Hebrew, classical, or medieval cultures (Rose, 1985). It was not until the Protestant Reformation that physical labor became culturally acceptable for all persons, even the wealthy.

How come it's so evil for anyone to be so overwhelmed by the sick system they wish to NOT participate in it's abuses and exploitation? Why is it taboo to refuse to comply with all those disgusting corporate trappings?
Why should I take the carrots and submit to the stick, just because other people tolerate it and find satisfaction playing that game?

Why is it intolerable for any one to admit to having a stronger desire for ones own heath and happiness and finds their sanity is in not "going for it" and getting a job ?


I don't want to produce more shit for the very market driven process that is slowly killing us all on the inside out,as well as killing the earth we all depend on. I don't want to fall apart for profits sake.
http://www.cavalcadeproductions.com/ace-study.html


What's so WRONG about that? As I see it work is crazy making and over production is toxic. We as a species do NOT need any more growth or production or success because these are the very things that are destroying us..and the lack of time to seek within,enrich ourselves has made us overly dependent upon this sick game of haves and have nots,and the corporate system to survive,and we live so far away from each other or so clustered together the very earth cannot sustain us in those situations should the system and culture of make believe crash too fast.It's tragic.
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/corpru.html

And it is about time we realized working even more hours will not give us the things we really desire like,time to explore,learn, learn to survive,know our children,help others,develop empathy love and good relationships.We need to get comfortable with ourselves,silence and each other,re learn social skills and managing our own time,finding out who we are..
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html

We traded the inhuman market and we gave away a humane community.

And we got shafted into a raw deal,
http://www.stress.org/job.htm
http://workplaceviolence.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/bully... /
http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/Types/faces.htm

one we think is rational or the only way to live and conforming to it has made so many suffer and we have learned to focus on the individual to avoid admitting we are all complicit in this mess and it is a social error. It is time humanity told the greedy corporates to **** off and die, threw away their clocks, shared this earth, and confiscated the wealthiest 'families' land,resources and stolen assets and cleaned up the chemical and trash mess all their consumer crap ,sick ideologies ,grandiose schemes of civilization and greed for profits gone overboard that in a few thousand years has made too much of a wasteland of our of the world, us,and our lives and minds..

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/EndCorpGov.html

I just can't participate in the toxic corporate culture without being driven over the edge. At least I am aware of my limits and can admit it.Many people never do and when they crash and burn they never figure out why..
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B0CEFDC...
http://cultronix.eserver.org/martz /
http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/workplace.htm...


"Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live." Norman Cousins

Probably shouldn`t pick on the obviously insane but it is put in the GD forum for all to see.

At least one took issue with it.

Common Sense Party  (1000+ posts)        Sat Mar-08-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. So are you going to live on a deserted island?
   Or do you have a 100% self-sufficient farm somewhere? Or are you independently wealthy?

It's great that you want to take more time off to get comfortable with yourself and find out who you are. I'm all for that.

But you don't expect me to foot the bill for you...do you? Surely not. You can't possibly be suggesting that society should take care of you because you find corporate culture too hurtful.

That is about it though.

kineneb (1000+ posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. I "produce" but no one pays for handwork
   I spin wool, I knit, I sew, I do woodworking, I paint in oils, I teach piano lessons. I like working by myself, at my own pace; in fact, I must work at my own pace.

Handwork and the arts are not valued in American society, only cheap shit from offshore is.

Quantity has won out over quality; we have the ultimate disposable "culture".

I can no longer work for The (Wo)Man, unless I wish to end up in the psych ward. The stress will send me over the edge.



I understand, U.P.

bobbolink  (1000+ posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. We progressives need to do some massive rethinking!
   Thanks for this!!

Herdin_Cats (507 posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. Few people ever question the conventional wisdom on this.
   Probably because the answers are too disturbing. Yes, what most of us spend most of our lives doing is pointless. But the alternatives are unbearable to most people, who aren't willing to give up a certain standard of living. And most think that any alternatives to the current soul-killing system are unrealistic.

bobbolink  (1000+ posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. You are much more productive, undergroundpanther, than any damned CEO!!
   With all your research and vast knowledge, you have added more wisdom to DU and those around you than most people could ever hope to accomplish!

The problem is, what you offer and others like you, isn't valued in this damned society!

It isn't that you don't "produce".... it's that it's invisible because you don't have a paper claiming you are an "expert".

We at DU are very fortunate to have you, and the smart people here sit up and take notice of what you have to say!

 

 

Two Americas  (1000+ posts)        Sat Mar-08-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. the demand that we produce
   Excellent post. Thank you undergroundpanther.

We are coerced to produce, and we must produce only that which benefits the few at the expense of the many. So even the meaning of the word "produce" has itself been corrupted.

Look around and it is easy to see that those who are producing things or providing services of real value, or things that cannot be easily controlled by the corporate juggernaut and harnessed to use for the benefit of the few, are either being "privatized" or are under horrendous assault and persecution - artists, teachers, nurses, farmers, to name but a few examples. Not only are our worst urges rewarded and praised and admired, our best urges are punished.

This corrupted and perverted notion of production has also corrupted every other aspect of our culture. Material success - most easily gained by committing oneself mind, body, and soul to anti-social predation and exploitation - has come to also mean "moral righteousness" and "mentally healthy" and "good citizenship." Good art is only that art which sells best on the "free market."

The demand that we "produce," and the severe and cruel penalties leveled against those who refuse to cooperate and are then called "losers" and "mentally ill" and "immoral," is actually a demand that we become slaves - physically, morally, and intellectually - that we become morally depraved, that we knuckle under to bullying and fully accept and contribute to the destruction of all that is truly good, truly productive, and truly healthy.

Not much doubt as to what side of productive/non-productive society they are on.

[Dixie*Darling]

Dear God in Heaven!  Carl you scared the crap outta me!  I thought UGP was perplexed by whether or not to reproduce!  <whew!>  Hopefully that thought never crosses her/his/its warped mind! 

[Chris_]

Quote
Two Americas  (1000+ posts)        Sat Mar-08-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. the demand that we produce
   Excellent post. Thank you undergroundpanther.

We are coerced to produce, and we must produce only that which benefits the few at the expense of the many. So even the meaning of the word "produce" has itself been corrupted.

Look around and it is easy to see that those who are producing things or providing services of real value, or things that cannot be easily controlled by the corporate juggernaut and harnessed to use for the benefit of the few, are either being "privatized" or are under horrendous assault and persecution - artists, teachers, nurses, farmers, to name but a few examples. Not only are our worst urges rewarded and praised and admired, our best urges are punished.

This corrupted and perverted notion of production has also corrupted every other aspect of our culture. Material success - most easily gained by committing oneself mind, body, and soul to anti-social predation and exploitation - has come to also mean "moral righteousness" and "mentally healthy" and "good citizenship." Good art is only that art which sells best on the "free market."

The demand that we "produce," and the severe and cruel penalties leveled against those who refuse to cooperate and are then called "losers" and "mentally ill" and "immoral," is actually a demand that we become slaves - physically, morally, and intellectually - that we become morally depraved, that we knuckle under to bullying and fully accept and contribute to the destruction of all that is truly good, truly productive, and truly healthy.

Not much doubt as to what side of productive/non-productive society they are on.

What, are these guys like 13?  I thought similar things when I was a child and didn't understand what creates wealth.  Your efforts are worth what the market will pay for them.  Period.  Even government jobs, so prized by liberals, still require you at least show up and pretend to work.

[Airwolf]

As much as it is wrong to say it but reading UGPs post reminds me of why Tigers eat their young

[Carl]

Dear God in Heaven!  Carl you scared the crap outta me!  I thought UGP was perplexed by whether or not to reproduce!  <whew!>  Hopefully that thought never crosses her/his/its warped mind! 

 

Sorry.

[franksolich]

Well, damn.

I don't suppose it's occurred to the subway cat that someone worked to build whatever she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the food she eats.

Or that someone worked to produce the clothes she wears.

Or that someone worked to build the city she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the pharmaceuticals she consumes.

Or that someone worked to involuntarily give the money that is her welfare benefits.

[Chris_]

Well, damn.

I don't suppose it's occurred to the subway cat that someone worked to build whatever she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the food she eats.

Or that someone worked to produce the clothes she wears.

Or that someone worked to build the city she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the pharmaceuticals she consumes.

Or that someone worked to involuntarily give the money that is her welfare benefits.

Nope -- they all appeared by magic.  That is why she is a liberal -- because the world is here to cater to HER.

[Carl]

Well, damn.

I don't suppose it's occurred to the subway cat that someone worked to build whatever she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the food she eats.

Or that someone worked to produce the clothes she wears.

Or that someone worked to build the city she lives in.

Or that someone worked to produce the pharmaceuticals she consumes.

Or that someone worked to involuntarily give the money that is her welfare benefits.

Not just this one,but most of them.
I find it perfectly normal to assess where things come from and why they are but the primitives have an unusual revulsion to that concept concerning.......uhm......everything it seems.

[PatriotGame]

What if what is required to be "productive" is intolerable to you?
I myself do NOT want to get involved in the job "market" because I can't stand corporate culture.It HURTS me. I don't want to produce for any corporation, I hate corporations. I hate bullies. And corporate culture is crazy- making and it is psychopathic.
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/corpru.html

Tell ya what freak, how about we withhold your gummint food for the next week. Then get back with me, ok?

[DumbAss Tanker]

Relax, UP, there is really no chance of you getting a job and being productive, so why worry about it?  You might as well ask "Ya know what I'm gonna do when I'm rich and famous and makin' my speech at the Academy Awards???  Do ya???"

 

[Lord Undies]

The word "corporation" seems to have so much power over DUmmies.  It's cute how they act like they know what it means. Just like they won't admit we live in a representative republic and not a democracy, DUmmies cannot admit "corporations" are made up of people trying to make a living.  

"Corporation" has become the new C-word in moonbat alley.  Heck, even *I* was the "president" of a "corporation" for almost thirty years.  I never once killed a puppy or slammed a black lady's hand in a car door.  

[DixieBelle]

If only she/he/it spent as much time "producing" as she/he/it does on the internet! She/he/it would be one of those wealthy CEO's!!!

*Okay, not really because of she/he/it's profound mental illness...but you get my point. She/he/it is the proverbial child who spends more time aruging about doing something than it would take to actually do it!

[Splashdown]

It needs to just shut up and lay down.

[dandi]

Being "productive" is a generic term. It could mean anything from assembling widgets on a production line for an eeeevul corporation to reviewing books for a magazine to mowing lawns. The point is you're doing something that adds to society rather than takes away and you're self-supporting. If you want to lie around on your sorry pseudofeline ass and turn your nose up at honest work, seeking some kind of nobility in sloth, that's fine. Just don't expect me to subsidize your statement against The Man with the fruits of my productivity.

[PatriotGame]

kineneb (1000+ posts)         Sat Mar-08-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. I "produce" but no one pays for handwork
   I spin wool...

"I spin wool..." - HA HA HA HA!
Spin wool ?!?!

Good gawd you freak, the sixteenth century is O-V-E-R!!

You need to get together with mythsage - you can spin yarns and he can tell them.

[ScubaGuy]

seriousstan  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Mar-08-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. Then don't ask for anything others work to produce. You know...health care, food, shelter.
   
I guess us poor delusional working saps will just have to do without your drain on our production. However, I am sure you feel entitled to the fruits of our labors.

Two Americas  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Mar-08-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. of course you do
   
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 11:24 PM by Two Americas
Particularly when it comes to agriculture, your food is heavily subsidized in many ways and developed through the contributions of tens of thousands of people throughout history, none of whom were adequately compensated at all, let alone by you.

The most essential things upon which we are most dependent are the most poorly compensated. Without human beings working for the love of working, rather than in your paradigm of enforced labor, and without their main motivation being the well-being of others, your imaginary world, a world of selfishness - of two dogs fighting for one bone - where all must submit or starve, would not be possible. Therefore your life is the parasitical one, and the people focusing on something greater than what you can see and whom you are suggesting are the parasites, are actually subsidizing you.

The rest of us could survive without your contributions. I am not so sure we can without the contributions of the OP and others like her.

Do people exist for the sake of the economy, or does the economy exist for the sake of people? Is society merely an aggregate of activity driven by selfish individualism, or are all of our notions of individualism completely dependent upon centuries of cooperative community building? These are but two of the foundational and essential questions that you are not only failing to answer adequately, but are not even asking.

Yes the world need more male/female human/cat beings who do nothing but post complaints on internet message boards.

Lorien  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Mar-08-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. It sounds like you've turned yourself into a bad cliche of what the
   
Right Wing always says that we are: lazy, self indulgent self involved people who want everything given to them. Just HOW do you feed yourself? Are you homeless? Do you beg on the street? That sounds more degrading to me than working for a corporation, working for yourself (which still means that you work for clients), or working in the service industry.

Growing up, my VERY productive mother would always send us off to school with "have a productive day" instead of "have a great day". She certainly drove us to be productive from day one-and yes, there could have been more of a balance in our lives. More fun, more time for reflection-but I've discovered over the years that we often find out just who we are through our work. We build relationships through work, we often find our loved ones through work.

Today is a case in point: this morning I got an email from a friend who was once an employee of mine. Another email came in from a friend who I met when she bought art that I PRODUCED on eBay. My friend Jose called-I met him through our mutual friend Tom, who was one of my best buddies when I worked for Walt Disney Feature Animation (yes, one of the biggest bullies of any corporation). Later my friend Renee called-I met her when she was my supervisor on "Beauty and the Beast"-a movie made quite a few years ago. Lastly my good buddy Jeff called to tell me that Warner Brothers (another big mean ol' corporation) had bought his intellectual property and would be making a movie out of it. I met Jeff in 1984 when he was my boss at a little animation studio in Ohio and we've been friends ever since.He's really happy about the movie deal; it's exciting and fun, not just profitable.

The point of all this is that I wouldn't know A SINGLE ONE of these people if I weren't "productive". I love them dearly and they enrich my life. Work is about more than simply producing; it's a way of connecting to others and the world around us. It can also be about exploring, learning, and becoming enlightened, even when we're not doing work that we love. As I said in another thread; I create stuff that I really hate sometimes. When times are tough I design toys for MGAE, the company that makes the "Bratz" dolls. I hate them and all that they stand for, but I find something good to take away from the experience: a). I'm drawing for a living, that's what I always wanted to do and the subject matter should not be important, b). I work with people at MGAE whom I really like and enjoy, 3). paying for food, shelter, and medical bills is good. I like being self sufficient-it improves my mood considerably (I'm prone to depression). Gandhi said "The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in service to others". That service doesn't have to be in creating "stuff", nor must it only be volunteer work. Doctors, waitresses, psychologists, musicians, writers, journalists, artists, lawyers, janitors...all serve the rest of us. Some are compensated well for it and others are not, but they are a part of society-not sitting outside of it, believing that by being alone and doing ONLY what what they desire at any given moment they will rise above the maddening crowd. Work can be a challenge; no doubt about it. I've been beaten up by the best of them. People in the entertainment industry can be brutal and ruthless. But I didn't crumble, I didn't let it kill me; I took the bitter with the sweet. I left that industry with valued friends and experience, both of which I still enjoy to this day.

I hope that some day you can rise above self pity and pain to embrace another way of life. I've read many of your posts over the years, and in all seriousness, I think that much of your suffering comes from isolation and deeply ingrained beliefs (some imposed on you by others) that need very much to be altered. The only way that will ever happen is by leaving your comfort zone and venturing out into the world as something other than a victim. You are more than that, much more, and it's past time to release your hold on that identity that you've clung to for so long.

Well said.

[Bondai]

I can't help but wonder why UP hasn't been committed to a facility? I am beginning to think that her entire persona is nothing but BS.

[Airwolf]

I can't help but wonder why UP hasn't been committed to a facility? I am beginning to think that her entire persona is nothing but BS.

It could be . I mean look at TiT. Nothing but lies in just about every post he puts up. If it's true I can't imagin how anyone that lives near it that wouldn't turn her fat ass into the humane society at least.

[jtyangel]

Oh geez...where to start? Is this is a surprise to anyone though? They should be paid to merely sit and contemplate society.  Really...

I hope OMC gets in this thread to add something of real value and actual commen sense.

And something tells me that anyone who expects UP to actually work for the money it earns and meet the goals set for that job is a 'bully' by its standards. Sometimes I feel sorry for UP, other times I think it is loathsome...this is one of the loathsome times.

[jtyangel]

The word "corporation" seems to have so much power over DUmmies.  It's cute how they act like they know what it means. Just like they won't admit we live in a representative republic and not a democracy, DUmmies cannot admit "corporations" are made up of people trying to make a living. 

"Corporation" has become the new C-word in moonbat alley.  Heck, even *I* was the "president" of a "corporation" for almost thirty years.  I never once killed a puppy or slammed a black lady's hand in a car door. 

Slacker...

[Rebel]

Translated: I want to sit on my fat, lazy, deformed, and mentally-ill ass and have everything given to me.

[Chris_]

Translated: I want to sit on my fat, lazy, deformed, and mentally-ill ass and have everything given to me.

..."so the rest of you, get off your asses and get to gitten'!  I'm hungry and I don't see no Cheetos in front of me now, do I?"

[DixieBelle]

Translated: I want to sit on my fat, lazy, deformed, and mentally-ill ass and have everything given to me.

..."so the rest of you, get off your asses and get to gitten'!  I'm hungry and I don't see no Cheetos in front of me now, do I?"

or cat chow....

[ScubaGuy]

I can't help but wonder why UP hasn't been committed to a facility? I am beginning to think that her entire persona is nothing but BS.

undergroundpanther  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sun Mar-09-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
46. Society   Updated at 12:20 PM
   
let me be abused tortured at home ,I called them as a KID,the police never bothered to arrive,at school I was tortured and nobody stood up, no teachers stood up even though I asked them for help.Than because of societies ignorance about abuse and psychopathy and my desire to heal from my past I was tortured again in mental hospitals.So I think I have paid my dues with a broken mind and body to the psychopaths running this so called society.

So SSI which is WAY below the poverty line.A check I know most people could not bear, isn't asking too much for you is it oh you comfortable and miserly one?

I cannot stand bullies and the workplaces is FULL of them.Would you rather me work a week,lose it and kill a bunch of people because I DESPISE them and they trigger the **** out of me? Or pay me a ridiculously small amount and leave me alone and let me survive in the way that works for ME?
You can't let society look the other way(by-stand) and break someones body and mind and expect them to like it, or trust said society again.

Only psychopaths believe in "willing victims".They try their damnedest to create the illusion willing victims exist.

If this really is her then she most certainly should be locked up. 

I work for workers  (432 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sun Mar-09-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. I would rather you grow up.
   
It's ok if you want to be a homeless person. It's not smart, but it's ok.

It's not ok for you to threaten us, the working members of the board, because you don't want to support yourself. Using violence or the threat of violence to coerce people into doing what you want is not just morally reprehensible, it's easily definable; terrorism. If you are so unhinged that you don't trust yourself not to kill your coworkers, then maybe you should be hospitalized. I wouldn't feel comfortable working with someone who feels that way, and I would be downright scared to have them slinking around my neighborhood as a desperate street person.

If this post is serious, then you should consider getting help.

If this is an offensive troll post designed to stereotype the homeless and mentally ill, then grow up.

[DixieBelle]

^wow. just wow. So she's terrorizing and extorting everyone else? That has worked wonders for others....