Author Topic: The Saqqara Bird  (Read 5373 times)

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Offline Thor

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The Saqqara Bird
« on: June 15, 2010, 11:54:10 PM »
Please explain your vote & reasoning behind your vote .....
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Offline Alpha Mare

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 02:49:29 AM »
I think it's a toy. One of the people buried there was Princess Idut, a child. Maybe a young friend made it for her journey.  Or maybe it was a burial gift from a young relative to the first guy buried there. It's a bird.
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 04:04:57 AM »
I vote it's a wind vane because of the tail section - probably modeled on a bird and perhaps intended as a toy. It may have been a cherished childhood memento of one of the people interned in that vault.

If it was a representation of an actual aircraft there would be indications of control surfaces which appear to be lacking.

If it was a direct model of a actual bird the tail section would have been different.

Offline vesta111

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 07:02:52 AM »
I vote it's a wind vane because of the tail section - probably modeled on a bird and perhaps intended as a toy. It may have been a cherished childhood memento of one of the people interned in that vault.

If it was a representation of an actual aircraft there would be indications of control surfaces which appear to be lacking.

If it was a direct model of a actual bird the tail section would have been different.



I vote for some kind of fertility symbol to be used when she became old enough in Heaven to mate with the Gods.

Why was she sacrificed in the first place, what made her so special that her people chose her over all the other girls in their society.?-------Interesting that there was also a male sacrificed with her,   who was he and what made him special.??

Why just these two and not hundreds of other catches of animal bones and funeral goods. 

Heck I still cannot get any information on the Muslim faith that believes the men will be given Virgins as a reward in Heaven.  When I ask a Muslim male what he will to do with his virgins I get this blank look.  Why have sex in Heaven with a virgin, once the deed is done there can be no children conceived from the act. [Another blank look.]   I ask what happens when they have had their fun with their allotted virgins and run out-- Do these EX virgins  suddenly become virgins again ??



Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »
LOOK, Look up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane.......It's Superman.
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Offline Thor

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 09:41:20 AM »
There's evidence & speculation that there MIGHT have been a rear stabilizer but that it may have fallen off and been destroyed over the years. The stranger thing is that a larger scale model was made and the aerodynamics were astonishing. Also, the way the wings were constructed are very similar to modern aeronautical engineering with the inward sides of the wings being heavier in width that the outward sides of the wings.

As I see it, there is no right or wrong answer at this point, but the model does fly  and very well, at that.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline vesta111

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 04:53:53 PM »
There's evidence & speculation that there MIGHT have been a rear stabilizer but that it may have fallen off and been destroyed over the years. The stranger thing is that a larger scale model was made and the aerodynamics were astonishing. Also, the way the wings were constructed are very similar to modern aeronautical engineering with the inward sides of the wings being heavier in width that the outward sides of the wings.

As I see it, there is no right or wrong answer at this point, but the model does fly  and very well, at that.

I would like to compare the bird to the drawings found from the early Hindu books on their faith and fables.  The millions of baked clay tablets that have so far been translated do have story's and crude drawings of a civilisation that fought wars in flying craft---is this where the flying carpet comes from.?

The head is that of a bird or so it seems and it brings up the figure heads of wild beasts on the ancient ships of war around the globe.

Do we have any water mammals or fish with that tail design ?

 Is this beautiful whatever the heck it is, any possibility of it being constructed on the eyewitnesses to flying fish from ancient mariners.?

The artifact is in such good shape I wonder if it could have been a toy, few childhood toys will survive a child's childhood especially one that may have been lobed off a roof to "fly".

I would not put anything past any Archaeologist from ---"salting the mine''

In the Ancient world symbolism was in everything, we can only put our own today's life interpretation on things from the past.  The AUNK has fascinated me for years,

Then those darn clay jars with copper wire found by the ton in some places, with some vinegar could this cause some kind of spark, ancient battery's??

The pyramids, the big one is dated on the fact that when a stone was removed the word KUFU was painted behind it.  How do we know that at the time of the building Kufu was not as common as Smith today and a laborer did not get board waiting for material and do a Killroy was here?


BUNK, I cannot believe that the at the time society built that thing, I believe the other pyramids the lopsided ones were the attempt to replicate the big one.

What fun to speculate on the past and its mystery's.   Somewhere out in the mid west there is a rune carved in ancient Viking symbols.  Fraud our scientist yell, yet who had the time, money or knowledge to pull this off?

Big money to be had looking for the Lock Nessi Monster, even today after 2 men both college students on their death bed admitted they faked the photos, told how they did it, as a joke that took off beyond their wildest dreams.  They left documents giving details of the Hoax but human nature causes people to need to face the non- reality and still look for something that is not there.


Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 05:20:38 PM »
I vote for toy.  If it were symbolic, it would be more stylized and would be unlikely to have outstretched wings...especially wings large enough so it might actually fly.    It's not decorated the way symbolic objects would be.    It was a toy for the child to have in the next life.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 05:31:46 PM »
I vote for toy.  If it were symbolic, it would be more stylized and would be unlikely to have outstretched wings...especially wings large enough so it might actually fly.    It's not decorated the way symbolic objects would be.    It was a toy for the child to have in the next life.

Where did the idea for the toy come from? Birds?

What about some of the artifacts found in Central America?

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 05:43:03 PM »
Where did the idea for the toy come from? Birds?

What about some of the artifacts found in Central America?

There has always been speculation that flying wasn't all that new an idea...especially given things like the Nazca lines.  What's the point to huge drawings that can only be seen from the air, if no one can see them?

However, the object you have is far more ornate and stylized.  The little bird was extremely simple in comparison.  Very much like the little gliders we still make for kids.  And how many of us have seen our kids run all over the yard with a toy like that, pretending they are flying?  Why wouldn't children back then have pretended the same way?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 05:50:38 PM »
There has always been speculation that flying wasn't all that new an idea...especially given things like the Nazca lines.  What's the point to huge drawings that can only be seen from the air, if no one can see them?

However, the object you have is far more ornate and stylized.  The little bird was extremely simple in comparison.  Very much like the little gliders we still make for kids.  And how many of us have seen our kids run all over the yard with a toy like that, pretending they are flying?  Why wouldn't children back then have pretended the same way?

I remember some of the balsa wood gliders, and even ones made from Styrofoam, but the Saqqara Bird doesn't look much like a bird. It looks like something that was meant to be thrown , much like our toy planes.

The artifacts from Central America are more like planes than anything.  The Nazca Line drawings always held a certain fascinatio for me.

Offline vesta111

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 06:05:12 PM »
Where did the idea for the toy come from? Birds?

What about some of the artifacts found in Central America?


Wow that is beautiful.    We have to remember  the natives in Central America and beyond had the religious idea that the God came from the stars.  He was of white skin with red hair and taught them how to build their Pyramids and raise Maze.

This God taught the elders how to  track the stars, how to know when to plant and  what to plant.  This God taught the people the increadable art of building temples pyramids and gave them a written language to record their lives. He taught them how to read and write and make books for the future.

So one day this God went home  back to the star he came from  with a promiss to return to better their lives even more.  He even gave them a date on his return and for century's the people waited for him.

Would you just know it, at about the time of his return the people were on the look out for him, and over the horizon comes Ships from the sea, big white sails and once on shore these white men, some with red hair off loaded these beasts the people had never seen before.  Worse was these Gods sat upon their backs and proceded to rape. pillage and burn their books that were precious to them.

These new Gods were out to destroy not help the people.    All the magnificent gold art work was melted down to make gold bars--- All in the Court of Spain waited for mail from the conqueror's, then the Church came in to further inslave the people.

It is a miracle that anything is left of that time to display in museums.

Offline Wineslob

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 04:27:02 PM »
Early Adam and Eve catalog item............
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2010, 08:55:45 AM »
The orientation of the tail is ready fuel for speculation about it being an aircraft, or representing one as best the person making it could interpret what he had seen.  The lack of control sufaces isn't completely dispositive, after all the Wright flyer used wing warping instead of ailerons, and an ancient artisan interpreting an aircraft in his own cultural context might not attach any significance to elevators, ailerons, and flaps.  However the tail orientation could also be accounted for as a gripping surface for the someone to hold the object and move it in either a child's playing or an adult's storytelling or religious use.  It's not totally impossible that it represents an aircraft of some sort, but I'll go with bird. 
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Offline Thor

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 07:01:54 PM »
Then why, when upscaled and placed in an airflow chamber, did it "fly". It has a glide path as good, if not better, than most gliders. From the replicas, it's difficult to discern any control edges or powerplant. Hell, a Revelle model has a difficult time depicting the control surfaces of an aircraft.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline vesta111

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 08:49:21 PM »
Then why, when upscaled and placed in an airflow chamber, did it "fly". It has a glide path as good, if not better, than most gliders. From the replicas, it's difficult to discern any control edges or powerplant. Hell, a Revelle model has a difficult time depicting the control surfaces of an aircraft.

Not all that long ago I took my grandkids to the Science Museum in Boston.

As we sat having a cold drink outside the Museums Store there was a man demonstraiting a toy plane for sale in the store.

This very simple, but complex cardboard plane when thrown in the correct fashion would glide out about 30+ feet and like a boomerang come back to the hand that threw it.

This led me to wonder how the Aborigines had devised this weapon the boomerang when they could not read, write, build towns or city's. They did not make  or sew and never invented the shoe.

Their life was upside down from the rest of the world, they believed they lived only when they slept and had dreams---Being awake was the time to fill their bellys, and produce children.    Their only true reality was in what they call Dream Time.

BTW, the face of this bird seems wrong to me, I have yet to see any representation of birds from that area where the beak is not as that of a bird of pray with the hooked beak.  Why would a toy for children in that era be one that represents food pray for other birds.?

Offline LC EFA

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2010, 03:49:20 AM »
...

This led me to wonder how the Aborigines had devised this weapon the boomerang when they could not read, write, build towns or city's. They did not make  or sew and never invented the shoe.

Their life was upside down from the rest of the world, they believed they lived only when they slept and had dreams---Being awake was the time to fill their bellys, and produce children.    Their only true reality was in what they call Dream Time.

...


Most of the time the boomerang doesn't come back. It was developed by accidental discovery I'd imagine. Given the other pinnacle of their "technology" was a hollow stick that one makes farting noises into.

As for awake time - it also made for a good time to kill and eat the other tribes in the surrounding area.

Just FYI.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The Saqqara Bird
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2010, 01:36:38 PM »
Then why, when upscaled and placed in an airflow chamber, did it "fly". It has a glide path as good, if not better, than most gliders. From the replicas, it's difficult to discern any control edges or powerplant. Hell, a Revelle model has a difficult time depicting the control surfaces of an aircraft.

Without horizontal stabilization either fore or aft of the wing, it wouldn't be stable in pitch, however putting a model into a wind tunnel with some form of strut to keep it in the flow will artificially damp that problem unless you are specifically designing the test structure to test for that.  Bird wings are airfoils too, and a reasonably accurate rendering of them will product aerodynamic lift in a wind tunnerl.   
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.