Author Topic: I have a question for all  (Read 2449 times)

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Offline 5412

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I have a question for all
« on: December 19, 2009, 07:18:36 PM »
Hi,

While we all know and feel that the true liberal socialism has finally started to come up big time, the one common question we old farts are asking and asked constantly is this.  Why would any member of congress vote for a piece of legislation like health care when they know it is a terrible bill, know that the vast majority of the people that hired them are violently opposed to it, and they well may lose thier job because of it?  Why the hell would they do that anyway?

I had a long talk with a guy who worked with Holder for many years yesterday and I am going to save his answer for awhile, be interested in learning how all of you are addressing that question.

Why would they support this bill which is bad for America and the public absolutely does not want?

BTW, Merry Christmas everyone,

5412

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 07:30:58 PM »
I'm still pondering this question.  You are not the first to ask.

Merry Christmas to you, Mr. 12.

Offline rustybayonet

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 07:37:49 PM »
5412 - No nads to rock the party boat, plus they know even when they lose the election - their retirement has them fixed for life, with the millions they have gotten in kick backs and payoffs coupled with the jobs [very loose term] as lobbyists they will get.  They don't give a rats a*s about their low life voters - it's obvious their only concern is re-election and/or lobbying jobs after.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 07:40:02 PM by rustybayonet »
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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 07:39:36 PM »
Simple, they desire to be our rulers and not our fellow citizens and representatives. Granting themselves dominion over issues concerning the very vital functions to our physical health expedites that.
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Offline ReardenSteel

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 07:40:59 PM »
martyrdom?

ignorance of history?

an actual desire to so evil? (history is full of folks who "want to rule the world"... why stop in modern times?)


 For one week of good press from the MSM... so out of touch are they?
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Offline RightCoast

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 07:44:30 PM »
There are two kinds of idiots that represent Dummies.

1) Those that truly believe its a good bill that will save lives, magically create more doctors, and reduce the deficit

2) Those that think the money/ power/ control that the government gains is worth it
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Offline Schadenfreude

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 07:49:55 PM »
There was a column I read recently that postulated the best explanation for this irrational behavior is that the Dems are in too deep to do anything else but complete the job. They are like bank robbers who have passed the point of no return and are going to be guilty of something. That and the fact that  they have lusted for this since FDR.... still, it seems like a kamikaze run to me.


 
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Offline Carl

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 07:52:08 PM »
Simple,they vote for things that will keep them liked on the hill while hoping that the constituents back home will either forget,forgive or not care.

Offline Baruch Menachem

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 08:01:27 PM »
1) They are set either way.
2) they lose their seat, they still get to be lobbyists, which is more renumeritive than congresscritter anyway
3)they can get enough goodies for the boys that matter back home to make it worthwhile, despite the damage to the public at large.
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Offline bkg

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 08:04:06 PM »
1) They are set either way.
2) they lose their seat, they still get to be lobbyists, which is more renumeritive than congresscritter anyway
3)they can get enough goodies for the boys that matter back home to make it worthwhile, despite the damage to the public at large.
4) if they've been in congress for over 2.5 years (IIRC) they get full pay for life.

who cares about re-election when you're set?

Offline Freeper

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 08:12:04 PM »
They are counting on the fact that there will be 11 months or so (assuming it gets passed by year's end) for most people to get distracted and forget all about it. Plus I believe a lot of them have been bought out anyway. If they lose then they will get a cushy position somewhere in the Obama admin.
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Offline bkg

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 08:14:09 PM »
They are counting on the fact that there will be 11 months or so (assuming it gets passed by year's end) for most people to get distracted and forget all about it. Plus I believe a lot of them have been bought out anyway. If they lose then they will get a cushy position somewhere in the Obama admin.

TRUTH.

Offline Oceander

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2009, 08:23:31 PM »
Because they all know that everything is going to go to hell in a handbasket anyway in about 20 years or so when medicare, medicaid, and social security finally hit real bankruptcy and the United States itself becomes literally insolvent.  At which point, everything simply collapses.  So, if you're too chicken to actually do anything about the nation-destroying entitlements your political philosophy has already created, and if you won't be around when the shit really hits the fan and everything gets worse than it is in Argentina right now, then why not simply throw a little more fuel on the fire now so that everyone's a little toastier, a little more merry, as we sink slowly into the miasma of nation-killing debt?

In other words, they don't give a damn that they are consigning us all to an even more certain hell than before, and therefore the only rational choice for the rest of us is to start watering Jefferson's tree as soon as possible.


Offline Pat

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2009, 08:44:03 PM »
They don't care if they are individually voted out. It's the collective party and platform that are important.

Offline 5412

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2009, 09:04:49 PM »
.............In other words, they don't give a damn that they are consigning us all to an even more certain hell than before, and therefore the only rational choice for the rest of us is to start watering Jefferson's tree as soon as possible................

Hi,


Wonder if Jefferson watered the tree the same way we did as kids......

I am all for that with every member of congress.

reagrds,
5412

Offline DefiantSix

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2009, 09:38:04 PM »
Both parties are being driven by the 'Progressive' elements of their organization.  For the progressives, this has been a long time coming, and it isn't so much about the content of each of these bills as it is two other things. 

First, is the need to overwhelm the current system: everything that has crossed The Øne's desk this year has been at least a thousand pages long.  Nobody in Congress reads them; mostly because nobody in Congress could possibly have the time under the rapid pace these monstrosities come flying at them.  They're part of an Alinsky-esque plan to overload the current system in place (remember how The Øne promised he was going to "re-build" America?), in order to cause it's collapse.

The second factor is what's actually in the bills that nobody's reading.  While The Øne and the Congress-shits have been distracting everyone with debates and entirely to public attempts to ramrod through the most controversial and least well polled aspects of each of these things, what nobody talks about is the underlying infrastructure that is being laid into our contry's legal framework.  For example: while 'single-payer' or 'public option' health insurance plans may not be in the text of the bill currently being greased through the Senate, 170-some odd NEW federal bureaucracies are, along with all of the tax hikes and a whole string of regualtory powers meant to lay the groundwork for single-payer sometime in the near future.

The progressives have been patient for over 100 years in their slow, methodical corruption of the Federal Government.  They're not about to be impatient now, when the plum is about to drop into their laps.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2009, 10:51:03 PM »
.............In other words, they don't give a damn that they are consigning us all to an even more certain hell than before, and therefore the only rational choice for the rest of us is to start watering Jefferson's tree as soon as possible................

Hi,


Wonder if Jefferson watered the tree the same way we did as kids......

I am all for that with every member of congress.

reagrds,
5412


At the very least!

Offline 5412

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2009, 11:01:43 PM »
Both parties are being driven by the 'Progressive' elements of their organization.  For the progressives, this has been a long time coming, and it isn't so much about the content of each of these bills as it is two other things.  

First, is the need to overwhelm the current system: everything that has crossed The Øne's desk this year has been at least a thousand pages long.  Nobody in Congress reads them; mostly because nobody in Congress could possibly have the time under the rapid pace these monstrosities come flying at them.  They're part of an Alinsky-esque plan to overload the current system in place (remember how The Øne promised he was going to "re-build" America?), in order to cause it's collapse.

The second factor is what's actually in the bills that nobody's reading.  While The Øne and the Congress-shits have been distracting everyone with debates and entirely to public attempts to ramrod through the most controversial and least well polled aspects of each of these things, what nobody talks about is the underlying infrastructure that is being laid into our contry's legal framework.  For example: while 'single-payer' or 'public option' health insurance plans may not be in the text of the bill currently being greased through the Senate, 170-some odd NEW federal bureaucracies are, along with all of the tax hikes and a whole string of regualtory powers meant to lay the groundwork for single-payer sometime in the near future.

The progressives have been patient for over 100 years in their slow, methodical corruption of the Federal Government.  They're not about to be impatient now, when the plum is about to drop into their laps.

Hi,

i think you are on to the game.  Democracy and freedom was a great thing and I suspect will not give it up quite so easily.  Once they get the old farts dead the next generation won't have anything to compare it to.

Before I head for the sack, I will add what my friend and i concluded today.

You aluded to Sol Alinsky and overwheming the system.  Totally agree, it is all about wealth redistribution.  My wife came in to me today and said one of the provisions of the bill is a 9% tax on people making over $200,000.00 a year.  Now having been self employed, by the time you added both halves of my social security and medicare to my income taxes i paid just a hair under 50% of my income to the federal government.  Well, were I still working it would be 59%, plus another 3% as I recall once the Bush tax cuts are rescinded.   of course you must factor inflation which is going to skyrocket and pretty soon $200,000 will be the mean income and it won't buy a whole heck of a lot, but the government will suck 90% of the earned income out of the system for taxes and redistribution to those who keep them in power.

Now add the cap and trade which basically will tax people with nice cars, big homes, anything that is a product of achievement, boats, planes, 4-wheelers, snowmobiles......all the toys that are a result of people working hard and enjoying the fruits of their labors.  

By the time you add the state and local taxes on top of that you will totally destroy the middle class and have sucked a tremendous amount of wealth out of the economy, which by the way costs thousands of jobs when folks who make and service all those industries are out of work.

Sol Alinsky said collapse the system, then goes to anarchy, then people will sacrifice freedom for security as some savior comes in and vows to stop all the violence if only you give them the power to do so.......kinda like Hitler did.  People do not realize what happened until it is too late.......Castro did the same thing.    

My friend and I honestly concluded that there are lot of democrats who feel that indeed will be the result and they will end up in the ruling class as part of the proletariat.  Somehow I suspect that the system will collapse in time for Obama to suspend elections or the government will find a way to get around presidential term limits because he is the only man on earth that can save us from the impending doom.

So far the only way we can see that not happening is when they try to dump term limits or stop an election.  That is when a Tommy Frank or McCrystal goes in and takes over the military and tells the commies the party is over.  It will be a military person who has the moral authority to lead that the military will follow.  

Much like Glenn Beck has said, God I hope we are wrong and this does not happen.

regards,
5412
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:21:17 AM by 5412 »

Offline Pat

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2009, 06:46:03 AM »

So far the only way we can see that not happening is when they try to dump term limits or stop an election.  That is when a Tommy Frank or McCrystal goes in and takes over the military and tells the commies the party is over.  It will be a military person who has the moral authority to lead that the military will follow.  

regards,
5412

I disagree
This will arise from the street level. Currently there's a 60% against health care poll number. Add in all the new programs and spending. Then no one will buy T-Bills. Money supply dries up for the moochers. They will get restless.
I believe a majority of the military will walk, always family first. This will leave a corrupt military attempting to defend the actions of lawmakers.

Offline formerlurker

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2009, 06:57:36 AM »
Because the American voter has a very short memory..... couple that with this not going into effect until after the next presidential election cycle, and there is PLENTY of time to spin this any which way they want. 

Offline rich_t

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2009, 07:22:41 AM »
Because the American voter has a very short memory..... couple that with this not going into effect until after the next presidential election cycle, and there is PLENTY of time to spin this any which way they want. 


You beat me to it.  That is what I was going to say.
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Offline 5412

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2009, 07:23:49 AM »
I disagree
This will arise from the street level. Currently there's a 60% against health care poll number. Add in all the new programs and spending. Then no one will buy T-Bills. Money supply dries up for the moochers. They will get restless.
I believe a majority of the military will walk, always family first. This will leave a corrupt military attempting to defend the actions of lawmakers.

Hi Pat,

While I agree with everything you say, when the money dries up for the moochers, the jobs dry up and people are starving to death.  Then we have anarchy.

It would appear to me that is what they are banking on, a complete collapse of the system.  The goal is to first destroy capitalism, God-forbid one person would work harder and have more than another.  Then to rebuild the system where there is no middle class and the government is the upper class and has all the power.

I will be very glad to be wrong, believe me.

regards,
5412

Offline Pat

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2009, 07:26:31 AM »
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html

Quote
5:51 pm - To be presented on Tuesday, December 5th 2006.
I've just heard that the UT Society for Environmental Education has accepted my abstract and the presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, December 5th at 7PM (location presently unknown). You should be there, because it's going to be like nothing any of these people has ever seen.

“Dedevelopment and the Problems of Cost-Benefit Environmentalism”

Abstract:

In order to understand the problems of environmental degradation, we must be willing to investigate how representative democracy and capitalism make these kinds of problems inevitable. Because our economic and political systems are based on property rights, we are socialized to consider human beings as owners, and of everything else as owned. This kind of subject-object distinction has allowed humanity to rationalize the worst kinds of atrocities, and must be overcome. Eternal pursuit of affluence dooms the entire planet. We must live simply so others can simply live. This presentation will address the reasons why participatory democracy and conservation are critically important to reformulating our interactions not only with the rest of the natural world, but also with each other.

Selected Bibliography:

Meszaros, Istvan. Beyond Captial: Toward a Theory of Transition. New York: Merlin Press. 1996.

Mishan, Edward J.. The Economic Growth Debate. New York: Franklin Watts. 1978.

Ophuls, William and Stephen Boyan. Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity Revisited: the Unraveling of the American Dream. New York: WH Freeman & Company, 1992.

Ryan, Michael. Marxism and Deconstruction: A Critical Articulation. Washington, DC: Johns Hopkins University Press. 1984.

Trainer, Ted. Abandon Affluence. London: Zed Books, 1985.

-----. The Conserver Society: Alternatives for Sustainability. London: Zed Books, 1995.

from
http://dedevelopment.livejournal.com/

Quote
Can Renewable Energy Sources Sustain Affluent Society?

F. E. Trainer

University of New South Wales 1995

 

Figures commonly quoted on costs of generating energy from renewable sources can give the impression that it will be possible to switch to renewables as the foundation for the continuation of industrial societies with high material living standards. Although renewable energy must be the sole source in a sustainable society, major difficulties become evident when conversions, storage and supply for high latitudes are considered. It is concluded that renewable energy sources will not be able to sustain present rich world levels of energy use and that a sustainable world order must be based on acceptance of much lower per capita levels of energy use, much lower living standards and a zero growth economy.

excerpt from
http://eco.consumercide.com/ted_renewaff.html


The Progressive Party is well aware they have raised the ire of the American people. They have proven that they are willing to commit political suicide to further the agenda.
I fully expect to see the following issues/bills brought to a vote in the next 11 mos.
Amnesty, Cap and Tax, VAT tax, Blair Holt or some form of gun control. I expect as the media sours, the regulations for them will increase. This is all barring some unforeseen national emergency that ushers in Marshal law.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 08:10:48 AM by Pat »

Offline bkg

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2009, 10:08:06 AM »
They don't care if they are individually voted out. It's the collective party and platform that are important.

WhoooHoooo.  Pat's here!  :cheersmate:

Offline kenth

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Re: I have a question for all
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2009, 12:39:01 PM »
Hi,

While we all know and feel that the true liberal socialism has finally started to come up big time, the one common question we old farts are asking and asked constantly is this.  Why would any member of congress vote for a piece of legislation like health care when they know it is a terrible bill, know that the vast majority of the people that hired them are violently opposed to it, and they well may lose thier job because of it?  Why the hell would they do that anyway?

It gets their foot in the door. It may not be exactly what they want, but it is more power. Once "public health care" is enacted, the degree is merely a matter of rules, not votes.

As for why do it at all, when the public doesn't want it? The type of people who go in to politics today do not do it for public service, they do it for themselves. I've always been of the opinion that wanting to run for public office should be an automatic disqualification for said office. Democrat politicians want to exert control over us. They desperately want to increase that control while they can. If they wait too much longer, it may not happen, especially after the '10 elections.