Author Topic: My communist manifesto  (Read 12529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
My communist manifesto
« on: April 06, 2013, 12:53:46 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm a college student. I come from a liberal perspective. I grew up with a supportive, liberal family. My father runs a small business. We're relatively well off.

I am currently in a class analyzing Marx's Capital Vol I (his theory on capitalism).

In questioning some of the perspectives of Marx, I'm trying to understand the perspective outside of my institutionalized ideology. I am not interested in any emotionally-driven quarrel with anybody here and just aim to gain new perspectives.

All I ask is you give me some common decency, and I can promise I will not go out of my way to provoke ideological fights. Feel free to shoot me a private message if you want to talk with me one on one.

Here is my working "communist manifesto," as EagleKeeper recommended I post. It's still changing.

First and foremost, I have faith in humanity. I believe there can be more than one reality — liberals and conservatives are just one example of this — and more than one reality can be understood and respected.

I think corporations and the accumulation of money-power are the biggest threats to individual and collective liberty. I believe market fundamentalism is naive. I am still working out my own understanding of the economy.

People and corporations with obnoxious accumulations of wealth have the social power and monetary power to manipulate the political system, which is not the way it was intended to work.

I believe in voluntary community organization, not involuntary collectivism, and I think there is power in community and crowds that must be embraced to overcome the destructive forces of corporate and money power.

Government is too big to be effective and is so wasteful. Smaller government is good.

Individual creativity, passion, empathy, and responsibility are important. Cooperation and collaboration are just as important.

Ethically, I believe every human being has a right to real food, clean water, a decent home, and connection with their community. I think the solution to that is not cheaper McDonalds food, not government welfare, but community's coming together, working together to help support one another. This doesn't mean special places for poor people. I mean respectable places where poor people are no longer suffocated by poverty, but able to connect with their community and have a better opportunity to have a decent life.

Tell me what you think. If you're interested in starting an in-depth conversation, let's start a new thread.

Thanks to EagleKeeper for recommending I start this thread.

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 12:59:19 PM »
Welcome!  :cheersmate:

Couple of points, if you simply said you were a college student, we would assume you were of the liberal perspective unless you stated otherwise, because what other chance have you had.

Secondly, you should do your research and find out who financed Karl Marx. It will open your eyes.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline EagleKeeper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Reputation: +133/-100
  • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 12:59:50 PM »
Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
- Napoleon Bonaparte

If you wait by the river long enough the bodies of your enemies will float by.
-Sun Tzu

Offline Dori

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7964
  • Reputation: +406/-39
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 01:14:35 PM »
Welcome oFrosty.

If you are sincere about wanting to know the conservative point of view, I would love to give you mine and I'm sure others here would like to too.  But some will think you are a troll.

I kind of thought when I read your post of the "10 conservative things",  that you were in school and possibly here doing research for maybe a class paper.

However, I hope we can set you straigt on capitalism and Marx.  It's really not your fault either, as most of you kids have been brainwashed with this kind of  thinking.





   
“How fortunate for governments that the people     they administer don't think”  Adolph Hitler

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 01:18:32 PM »
Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?

Imagine all the poor people a compassionate liberal could bleed for with that triple-the-rate-of-inflation tuition!

Instead, he finances a few radical Marxist professor's luxurious swimming pools and saunas!
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 01:29:30 PM »
Welcome!  :cheersmate:

Couple of points, if you simply said you were a college student, we would assume you were of the liberal perspective unless you stated otherwise, because what other chance have you had.

Secondly, you should do your research and find out who financed Karl Marx. It will open your eyes.

Thanks! I do suppose that's the norm..

I know that Marx was commissioned to write the Communist Manifesto, which I'm not all that interested in. I think his partner (the son in law of a rich capitalist, I believe) funded most of his other work. Otherwise, I think he was a smart dude with some critical insights into the how the economy functions that have been lost as his name has grown increasingly toxic.

Additionally, what he hated about capitalism would be appalling to most business owners today — for example, in a world of no such thing as the weekend or a standard 8 hour working day, is it right for factory owners to force workers to labour for 12 - 20 hours a day, every single day, in appalling conditions?

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 01:32:22 PM »
Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?


To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.

It is expensive.

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 01:36:39 PM »
Welcome oFrosty.

If you are sincere about wanting to know the conservative point of view, I would love to give you mine and I'm sure others here would like to too.
Thank you Dori.

But some will think you are a troll.

Any advice on dealing with that?

I kind of thought when I read your post of the "10 conservative things",  that you were in school and possibly here doing research for maybe a class paper.

It's not for a class, but sort of provoked by a class.

However, I hope we can set you straigt on capitalism and Marx.  It's really not your fault either, as most of you kids have been brainwashed with this kind of  thinking.

I don't know how I feel about being "set straight." :) But I would love to get a better understanding of your perspective, so I can form my own perspective as opposed to adopting a prescribed ideology!

Thanks again!

Offline EagleKeeper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Reputation: +133/-100
  • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 01:37:39 PM »
Why?

For what reason are you attending collage?

Is it so you can be educated and go out to the unwashed populace and help us be better people?

Or are you attending collage in an effort to make yourself more hireable?
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
- Napoleon Bonaparte

If you wait by the river long enough the bodies of your enemies will float by.
-Sun Tzu

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 01:37:59 PM »
Imagine all the poor people a compassionate liberal could bleed for with that triple-the-rate-of-inflation tuition!

You're right.

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 01:47:15 PM »
Why?

For what reason are you attending collage?

Is it so you can be educated and go out to the unwashed populace and help us be better people?

Or are you attending collage in an effort to make yourself more hireable?

To explore for the sake of wonder, curiosity, personal-growth, and passion. I'm into physics and political economy.

I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.

After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 01:54:55 PM »
To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.

It is expensive.
You could do all that and maybe even get an education by spending that money on travelling.

There used to be some credit card commercial or something where an Australian dude made that point. I always thought it was quite a brilliant point.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline JohnnyReb

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32063
  • Reputation: +1997/-134
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 01:59:03 PM »
To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.

It is expensive.

DAMN! College must have changed since I went in the 1960's.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Splashdown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6729
  • Reputation: +475/-100
  • Out of 9 lives, I spent 7
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2013, 02:24:30 PM »

Additionally, what he hated about capitalism would be appalling to most business owners today — for example, in a world of no such thing as the weekend or a standard 8 hour working day, is it right for factory owners to force workers to labour for 12 - 20 hours a day, every single day, in appalling conditions?

Know what's funny? That evil capitalist Henry ford doubled workers' wages and shortened their work day. He did it to improve his product and reduce turnover.

Don't you think the market corrects things? Or do you assume that a McDonald's worker deserves a $20-$25 per hour "living wage"?
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
--St. Theresa of Avila



"No crushed ice; no peas." -- Undies

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 02:25:54 PM »
You could do all that and maybe even get an education by spending that money on travelling.

There used to be some credit card commercial or something where an Australian dude made that point. I always thought it was quite a brilliant point.

Oh, I considered it. But college also covers $15,000 a year in scholarship for me and there's the degree at the end. It's a trade off.

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 02:32:32 PM »
Know what's funny? That evil capitalist Henry ford doubled workers' wages and shortened their work day. He did it to improve his product and reduce turnover.

Don't you think the market corrects things? Or do you assume that a McDonald's worker deserves a $20-$25 per hour "living wage"?

Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.

I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.

I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23048
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 02:41:18 PM »
I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.

After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.

Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.

I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.

I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.

 :rotf:
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 02:49:39 PM »
Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.

I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.

I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
Couldn't have been much of a 'worker's revolution' then.

And are you saying that if I do the work, start a business, get it going, keep it running in spite of insane and inane government regulations then you come along and tell me how to run it?

NO!
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline marv

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2194
  • Reputation: +124/-28
  • Resident Grandpa
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 02:51:13 PM »
I sense that this thread is more about seeking identity than professing one's convictions.
FOUR BOXES KEEP US FREE: THE SOAP BOX, THE BALLOT BOX, THE JURY BOX, AND THE CARTRIDGE BOX.

THIS POST WILL BE MONITORED BY THE NSA

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 02:52:16 PM »
Further more, I do not want to walk into a Noodles & CO an not get the food I like to get from a Noodles & CO because some stupid, young, idiotic Marxists think they know what is good for me and what I should want.

Leave them to their poverty of mind!
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Dori

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7964
  • Reputation: +406/-39
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 02:53:56 PM »
I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.

You do know minimum wage jobs like McDonalds is an entry level type job for kids don't you?  Have you ever worked in a place like that?  If not, maybe to expand on your education you should.  And before you branch out into your chosen career, you should also try starting your own business for profit. The best teacher in the world is experience.  



 
“How fortunate for governments that the people     they administer don't think”  Adolph Hitler

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »
I sense that this thread is more about seeking identity than professing one's convictions.

It is.

Offline oFrosty

  • Probationary (Probie)
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: +0/-21
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 03:08:25 PM »
And are you saying that if I do the work, start a business, get it going, keep it running in spite of insane and inane government regulations then you come along and tell me how to run it?

Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.

Offline JohnnyReb

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32063
  • Reputation: +1997/-134
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 03:15:45 PM »
Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.

So, get off your ass, find 22,000 workers, several billion dollars and start a car manufacturing business where the workers get a living wage and decide everything......even the color as long as it's red, I guess, huh.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Dori

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7964
  • Reputation: +406/-39
Re: My communist manifesto
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 03:25:27 PM »
Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.

What kind of cooperatives?  How on earth are you going to get people to work in a cooperative?  Even William Bradford of the Mayflower failed at trying that;

'"The experience that we had in this common course and condition tried sundry years... that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing -- as if they were wiser than God. ... For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense.'"
“How fortunate for governments that the people     they administer don't think”  Adolph Hitler