living will

[franksolich]

I'm trying to seek illumination about something, but perhaps probably only those of the Roman Catholic faith have even the slightest idea of what I'm looking for.

Many years ago, when I still lived in Lincoln, Nebraska, I was "house-sitting" for an affluent couple who had gone to eastern Africa for a couple of months.  They subscribed to the New York Times, and one day while lazing in the sun-room, I read a news-article about a most-unusual sort of "living will," that had been devised by a couple in Connecticut, and apparently adopted by many others.

Responsibility over life and death is no small matter, and of course I myself--beginning at far too young of an age--have had to deal with deciding whether to shut off the machine, or to wait a little while.  It's a bitch.

The couple who devised this sort of living will took the personal responsibility off the shoulders of an individual, or family, entrusting it instead to a disinterested third party.

It was a long time ago that I read the news-article, about twenty years ago; I vaguely recall that a certain entity is given that power, and when the time comes, that entity gives the power to a faraway Roman Catholic priest intimately acquainted with the Catholic definitions of "life" and "death;" a priest who is affiliated with a Catholic medical school somewhere, and an M.D. himself.

No one is told the identity of this individual, other than the bed-side physician.

Again, the individual (of which apparently there are many, chosen in rotation), with his medical training and understanding of Roman Catholicism, judges each case using the Catholic criteria of when one is irretrievably gone from this time and place; whether to cease life-sustaining measures or to continue them.

The regular physicians interviewed for the news-story said it worked very well, taking a lot of pressure off those closely involved--no self-imposed guilt, no second thoughts--but it works only for those willing to accept the traditional and doctrinal Roman Catholic definitions of life and death, and with those who know and understand that death is much more than just a material event.

I rather like this idea, but can't find any information on how it's done.

[Ballygrl]

frank, I never heard of that at all.

My Mom had minor surgery last month, we did a living will for her where I was to make decisions on her behalf if necessary.

[debk]

Me neither, Frank.

I do know, that for years...at least 20 or more....hospitals have asked if patients have a living will, during the admission process. Obviously, that is more difficult if one is emergency admitted.

I also know that living wills can be generic or very specific...and if a certain situation is not mentioned, the living will is not considered.

Example: My dad had a living will, and while in a nursing home, was going into kidney failure. If I had not made an off-hand comment to one of the nurses, about not doing anything to prevent the kidney failure, he would have been treated for it. Neither my brother - who had medical power of attorney for our dad - nor I, had any idea that treatment for kidney failure ....dialysis in this case...was not considered to be an "extreme measure". We also found out that amputating his feet was also not considered an "extreme measure"!! At least my brother found that out, before it was done and then, only because my dad mentioned it to him that it was going to be done.

In our non-medical, non-legal minds...both procedures were extreme for someone in his physical and mental condition. But neither procedure was mentioned -under any circumstances - in his living will....which is the guideline that a medical facility follows when there is one on record. We had already found out that resuscitating him 3 times within a few hours, was also not considered to be "extreme".

M and I also found out the hard way, with his father, that even a more specific living will may not be specific enough. In his father's case, it was a surgically implanted feeding tube.

Yes, it would keep him nourished better than an IV, and keep him alive. But it was going to do nothing to cure the pnuemonia that was the result of fluid buildup in the lungs, which was being increased by the IV's and would also be, by the feeding tube. If all nourishment was stopped he would die within days. If nourishment continued, the pneumonia... that was not responding to any single antibiotic, or combination of as many as 4 at one time...would eventually cause death by drowning from the fluid build-up. It was a catch-22. Either way, he was not going to be able to go back to life as he knew it, (the pneumonia was rapidly increasing the Parkinson's and dementia) he was going to die, it was just a question of when and how much would he suffer in the process.



I do know that a person can write their own living will. It probably should be notorized. I do know that both a regular Power of Attorney and a Medical Power of Attorney, have to be notorized. Neither take the place of the other, but someone with an MPoA, can "pull the plug" so to speak, and override a Living Will.   

[Ballygrl]

I don't know why people would feel guilty if they're abiding by someone's wishes. My Mom basically wants me to do decide to have the Hospital do everything possible to keep her alive and not make a rash decision if the Hospital says it's hopeless, and my Aunt is the opposite, she wants me to tell the Hospital to just make her comfortable and not go too any extraordinary means if the Hospital says it's hopeless, so I would have no guilt making either 1 of those decisions on their behalf although it would make me sad.

[franksolich]

Well, here's where my situation is somewhat different than those of Ballygrl and debk.

Not married, no children, all siblings deceased.

"Closest" relatives are six nephews, three of whom are married.  But they do not live anywhere close to me, and we ourselves were never close, usually because of distance.

Tons of close friends, but I wouldn't dream of imposing upon them.

I am of course eminently comfortable with the Roman Catholic definitions of "life" and "death," which is why I'm trying to figure out exactly how this is done.

[Ballygrl]

Well, here's where my situation is somewhat different than those of Ballygrl and debk.

Not married, no children, all siblings deceased.

"Closest" relatives are six nephews, three of whom are married.  But they do not live anywhere close to me, and we ourselves were never close, usually because of distance.

Tons of close friends, but I wouldn't dream of imposing upon them.

I am of course eminently comfortable with the Roman Catholic definitions of "life" and "death," which is why I'm trying to figure out exactly how this is done.

frank, BlueStateSaint is Catholic too, maybe he's heard of it. If you'd like, after Mass I can see if I can speak to the Priest and ask him about this?

[franksolich]

frank, BlueStateSaint is Catholic too, maybe he's heard of it. If you'd like, after Mass I can see if I can speak to the Priest and ask him about this?

Oh man.

I forgot all about muddyems, now known as BlueStateSaint.

I'll direct him here.

And yeah, if you could inquire of your own priest, I'd appreciate it.

[thundley4]

Oh man.

I forgot all about muddyems, now known as BlueStateSaint.

I'll direct him here.

And yeah, if you could inquire of your own priest, I'd appreciate it.

Frank, you're worrying me, by making this seem like there is a pressing need for this.

[BlueStateSaint]

Frank, you're worrying me, by making this seem like there is a pressing need for this.

Gotta agree with thundley here.  I'll talk to my parish priest about the Catholic implications of a living will.  As I understood it, a living will was for specific instructions as to what measures to prolong one's life could be taken, if said person was incapacitated by a condition.

[Ballygrl]

Gotta agree with thundley here.  I'll talk to my parish priest about the Catholic implications of a living will.  As I understood it, a living will was for specific instructions as to what measures to prolong one's life could be taken, if said person was incapacitated by a condition.

BSS, I'll rely on you to ask your Priest instead of me because I know you're more involved in the Mass then I am, I'm just 1 of the parishioners whereas you're more involved.

[debk]

I think Splashdown is also Catholic, and maybe Celtic Rose too.

[Thor]

Speaking of, I need to get another one of those in place. I had one in place before my scheduled surgery in April of 2010 that never happened. I need an all-inclusive one, now.

[Ballygrl]

frank, I didn't get to ask the Priest, we had a Baptism at Mass and the Priest was busy with the family afterwards, hopefully BSS can get some info.

[vesta111]

Just found this and I have radical ideas on the living will project.

I worked in nursing homes where people needed a guardian as perhaps they could not walk or could not live alone.  Family generally came into the picture and if money is involved then you get the dark side of life.

Don't get me wrong here as some poor people had been bed ridden for a few years and could not communicate with others.  I could understand the Red NR over their beds that denoted no recessation. ----But, it was the others that worried me.

It was the lively intelect of some who but for a health issue had been talked into by family to decide that they were safer and more secure in that environment.

One old dude perhaps 70 years old needed assistance living, he was a master Historian on Ancient boat building and created models of ancient ships with tooth picks.    Very wealthy with only a few cousins left in his family.

His family had taken over the mans finances and care, were his legal guardians.  Had his full power of attorney.  The family decided to have the big red NR posted over his bed.  His relatives were just by a generation or so blood and he trusted them, did not really know them but they were all he had.

   He had no idea what that meant and went on his merry way to eat meals in the dining room and wander about making friends and going on short day trips that were offered.  Very lively man, often on 3 rd shift coming to the nurses desk with his new plans  for his craft or to give us a history lesson on Viking ships and how they crossed the sea.

Came the day that by coincidence the shift of  the nurses had changed and a few new nurses came in.

 God blew the paper  with NR off the wall and under his bed.   This old timer was feeling not so good so rang for a nurse and she called for a doctor, he had had a slight stroke.

His distant relatives went WILD when they found out he had been resuscitated.  Sued the Nurse that found him, the director of Nursing AND the cleaning staff for not finding the upside down sign under his bed.

Meanwhile the old dude made a full recovery but found he was in one hell of a spot.  He had to borrow change from us nurses to make phone calls to find a different lawyer, And now for the really scare part.

We came in one day to find his door to his room closed and an order that he could not leave his room---Per order of the family.    We were to only enter the room to bring him his meals, change his bed and remove soiled clothing.  He was not allowed visitors or allowed to make phone calls.  He was not given one penny to buy books, or to work on his models that were soon removed from his room--Per order of the family.

He was the very first human I have ever met that was in a box he could not get out of.  Yes we did break the rules, after 11 pm we allowed him to get out , walk the halls and watch TV,--His TV and radio had been removed from his room Per-order of the family.

Back on subject, say you are 70 years old and make out a living will and down the line regret it, you decide you want to live for every breath you can take.  You put your trust in modern medicin and pray they can get you back on your feet.     This is done a thousand times a day.

Who will remember making a living will with NR on it 10 years ago, so you are in an accident and cannot vacate that , your wishes at the time will not be followed.

Frank be careful of what you sign today , 2 weeks down the road you may feel different.
 You wish to trust the Church--good choice, but try to find a lawyer that will keep an eye out, the Mother Church is one thing and its priests are another.

I am just a survivor from the dark side of life all Nurses see every day.   I was a really rotten nurse, I had too much empathy for that job. And when it came to seniors I was and still am a bull dog for their rights even if I had to place my own job or liberty  on the line.

[SaintLouieWoman]

Vesta, you make that living will very scary. I have one, so does SR. When he had his stroke, it was the first thing they asked in the ER. I told them he had one, but they didn't make me produce it.

I hope the gentleman you were talking about eventually got a new attorney. 70 isn't old, at least not down in Sarasota. One of my neighbors is 80; you'd think she was in her late 50's. I guess the average age in our development is at least late 70's. They are all in their own houses, living active lives.

My mom had a living will with the do not resuscitate. She had Alzheimer's or some variation of it. A stroke was what finally got her. My sis and I went through hell in her room. The doc didn't put her in the hospital, but kept her in her room at the nursing home. Because of the do not resuscitate, the doc would only give her oxygen, no IV. I'm not sure which would have been worse, seeing her fade away in 4 days or having it played out longer with the IV.