The Conservative Cave
Interests => Living Off of the Grid & Survivalism => Topic started by: The Village Idiot on January 04, 2010, 07:51:35 AM
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If you had 5 acres of land. I guess it would depend on the region.
Let us say the human waste hits the oscillation device? You need to live off your 5 acres.
Hopefully good fertile land, what would you grow? What grain/vegetable gives the most return per space? What fruit trees would you add? Would you raise chickens? A cow? pigs? Knowing you have to feed them too?
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I'd keep some chickens and possibly a goat or two, but I don't think I could look after much more livestock than that. As for food, I'd probably grow fruit and vegetables rather than grain as that will be more difficult to harvest. Fruit trees take quite a while to get established so I wouldn't use up too much space on them. I'd prioritise having something to harvest most months rather than a major glut in late summer/autumn. So all the usuals potatoes, onions, garlic, green vegetables, tomatoes and herbs. Raspberries are low maintenance and hardy so I'd go for them. I'd also want to get a beehive as I'd have no way of sweetening anything otherwise (that would depend on me knowing how to keep bees!).
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One need only to look at the Ukrainian peasants, who even during the worst years of socialist totalitarian repression, were allowed a small private plot of land, on which they kept 2-3 goats, a couple of pigs, and a bunch of chickens and geese. Very few trees. The usual potatoes, beets, other hearty vegetables that would keep, once harvested, for a very long time in crude dug-out cellars. I don't recall seeing much fruit grown, although surely there was more than what I saw.
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I'd also want to get a beehive as I'd have no way of sweetening anything otherwise (that would depend on me knowing how to keep bees!).
Honey is good. Very tradeable too. sugar beets?
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One need only to look at the Ukrainian peasants, who even during the worst years of socialist totalitarian repression, were allowed a small private plot of land, on which they kept 2-3 goats, a couple of pigs, and a bunch of chickens and geese. Very few trees. The usual potatoes, beets, other hearty vegetables that would keep, once harvested, for a very long time in crude dug-out cellars. I don't recall seeing much fruit grown, although surely there was more than what I saw.
back to medieval times I suppose. I would defintely want some fruit trees, hopefully ones that do not require too much work. Apples, pears, oranges, lemons, peaches, plums, pecans etc etc. Could grow grapes along a fenceline I guess. Definitely chickens and hopefully a cow, goat, pig. If you have space a horse would be good, with a saddle or wagon.
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Honey is good. Very tradeable too. sugar beets?
Beets seem quite difficult to process, I was imagining 5 acres being farmed with only one or two adults and if TSHTF then maybe little or no machinery.
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I would probably start by focusing on hardy, calorie dense root vegetables,such as potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, parsnips, etc., with other vegetables that store well, like cabbage and winter squash. I would grow plenty of tomatoes because they can be made into salsa and pasta sauce and provide good winter food as well be eaten when fresh. I'd add in plenty of fast growing prolific vegetables such as green beans, peas, and summer squash. I would also probably grow good drying beans such as kidney beans, chickpeas, and the like. Corn would be another good calorie dense item that would store well. It could also serve as an easy to grow grain item.
I would have berry plants before I tried growing fruit trees because you can get a better harvest faster. I would grow herbs, especially perennials to make my food taste good. Many aren't too terribly difficult to grow.
Goats and chickens would be my choice for livestock. They can both forage through most of the year so they won't take a lot food that is necessary for human consumption until winter and they will provide good protein food on a consistent basis.
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Beets seem quite difficult to process, I was imagining 5 acres being farmed with only one or two adults and if TSHTF then maybe little or no machinery.
Thats the scenario, you are correct. I didn't know how much processing beets would require.
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So how do we get some traffic in here?
This board is lonelier than a Baptist church in San Francisco.
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Typically, one large animal per acre or grassland would be acceptable. Giving that one acre would probably be a garden and some sort of food bearing trees (e.g., apples, peaches, pears, pecans) That would allow for almost four acres of potential grassland. I would hope to have one horse, a breeding/ milk cow, a pig, some chickens and maybe a couple of turkeys. A beehive would be nice, too, as others have mentioned.
My question would be is how many people have the skills to make the farm work?? (such as, mechanical repairs, fencing, home repairs, etc) Many people I know don't know enough because they have been raised in the modern society where we take out vehicles to the repair shop, call out a handyman for home repairs, etc etc etc
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Typically, one large animal per acre or grassland would be acceptable. Giving that one acre would probably be a garden and some sort of food bearing trees (e.g., apples, peaches, pears, pecans) That would allow for almost four acres of potential grassland. I would hope to have one horse, a breeding/ milk cow, a pig, some chickens and maybe a couple of turkeys. A beehive would be nice, too, as others have mentioned.
That sounds right. There would need to be a well or other water source as well.
My question would be is how many people have the skills to make the farm work?? (such as, mechanical repairs, fencing, home repairs, etc) Many people I know don't know enough because they have been raised in the modern society where we take out vehicles to the repair shop, call out a handyman for home repairs, etc etc etc
and many of those people live in the big cities, they'll mostly die when TSHTF. Some will become part of roving bands of pillagers and bandits.
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That sounds right. There would need to be a well or other water source as well.
Yep. People would need to insure that there was water available. I've seen many parcels that have no water available unless it's DEEP in the ground.
and many of those people live in the big cities, they'll mostly die when TSHTF. Some will become part of roving bands of pillagers and bandits.
And many would die in their attempts at looting, at least around where I live.
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One need only to look at the Ukrainian peasants, who even during the worst years of socialist totalitarian repression, were allowed a small private plot of land, on which they kept 2-3 goats, a couple of pigs, and a bunch of chickens and geese. Very few trees. The usual potatoes, beets, other hearty vegetables that would keep, once harvested, for a very long time in crude dug-out cellars. I don't recall seeing much fruit grown, although surely there was more than what I saw.
My Ukranian Grandmother, during the depression, grew cabbage, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, potatoes.
Canned constantly.
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Yep. People would need to insure that there was water available. I've seen many parcels that have no water available unless it's DEEP in the ground.
And many would die in their attempts at looting, at least around where I live.
I saw a 5-acre tract of land for $3000 or so. But it was in the desert near Mexico. No way Jose. Don't want to live on a tiny tract right on a lake that could flood me annually either.
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Now I'm pretty much a city boy, but how about planting certain ground cover which might attract wild game. Don't deer like clover for instance?
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Now I'm pretty much a city boy, but how about planting certain ground cover which might attract wild game. Don't deer like clover for instance?
Another thing I hadn't thought about. Texas has whitetail and wild hogs.... hhmmmm
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Now I'm pretty much a city boy, but how about planting certain ground cover which might attract wild game. Don't deer like clover for instance?
Mine are pretty fond of my hybrid daylillies.... ::)
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Mine are pretty fond of my hybrid daylillies.... ::)
Hmmm, maybe that's why you have hunters roaming around your neighborhood...
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Mine are pretty fond of my hybrid daylillies.... ::)
Tried your Italian dressing/breadcrumb chicken this weekend. Turned out great.
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Hmmm, maybe that's why you have hunters roaming around your neighborhood...
The woman who owns the property up behind us called over the weekend.
Told me two hunters, with guns, came up on her 2 older boys down by the creek between our two properties....asking if they could hunt in here.
She was royally pissed!
Also said she found 2 guys on the property that said they were harvesting gingseng. She said, huh? They told her they'd been coming here for years to get it. She told them this was now all private property and they weren't grandfathered in and that the next time she saw them here, she'd call the cops!!
Told her to make sure that the boys knew they could come here for help at any time or if they got scared, and we'd bring them home.
Guess we need to be a bit more diligent....
So much for living in a "gated" community.... :(
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So much for living in a "gated" community.... :(
If the gates don't work, start a militia.
:p
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So much for living in a "gated" community.... :(
I guess the "gate" only keeps out the folks who drive right up to it.
Good luck with this. I don't mean to make light of your situation.
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It wouldn't hurt to learn how to can, if you don't know already. Freezing may not be an option, if electricity isn't.
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It wouldn't hurt to learn how to can, if you don't know already. Freezing may not be an option, if electricity isn't.
We'd need a bauxite mine, a metal processing plant and a can factory though. :naughty:
seriously though, how did humans survive this? heh.
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We'd need a bauxite mine, a metal processing plant and a can factory though. :naughty:
seriously though, how did humans survive this? heh.
Along with digging that garden....you would need to dig a root celler, an ice house, and build a smokehouse.
Piece of cake.... :lmao:
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We'd need a bauxite mine, a metal processing plant and a can factory though. :naughty:
seriously though, how did humans survive this? heh.
Smarty pants. Dontcha know we CAN in JARS?
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Smarty pants. Dontcha know we CAN in JARS?
The survivors are going to have to scavenge for a while for mason jars etc. But after a while they are going to have to start manufacturing certain things again. That will be interesting, seeing civilization resetting.
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Along with digging that garden....you would need to dig a root celler, an ice house, and build a smokehouse.
Piece of cake.... :lmao:
dig the root cellar under the floor. ice house? probably not, probably have one in each "village" though, between the brewery and tavern/Inn. Smokehouses can be pretty small right?
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The survivors are going to have to scavenge for a while for mason jars etc. But after a while they are going to have to start manufacturing certain things again. That will be interesting, seeing civilization resetting.
I ain't scavenging. Thanks to my G-mom, I have CASES of em. :evillaugh:
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With an ample garden, deer will automatically be attracted. They LOVE corn, soybeans, apples, melons and other fruits & veggies. I wouldn't waste productive garden land just to attract deer. That said, it wouldn't hurt to allow a little clover in the pasture land as cattle like that, too. Just remember, clover is a weed and will take over a lot of good native grasses. A better thing to plant would be alfalfa. Deer like that, too.
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With an ample garden, deer will automatically be attracted. They LOVE corn, soybeans, apples, melons and other fruits & veggies. I wouldn't waste productive garden land just to attract deer. That said, it wouldn't hurt to allow a little clover in the pasture land as cattle like that, too. Just remember, clover is a weed and will take over a lot of good native grasses. A better thing to plant would be alfalfa. Deer like that, too.
What are the easiest, hardiest (durable) things to grow?
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What are the easiest, hardiest (durable) things to grow?
Squash, zucchini, cucumbers, beans (if you keep the deer away). You can also make bread from the squash and zucchini.
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Squash, zucchini, cucumbers, beans (if you keep the deer away). You can also make bread from the squash and zucchini.
blech. I meant good ones like potatoes. heh. Beans are always good, they'll store for a long time.
Does anyone know how to grow peppercorn? to make black pepper? where would we get salt at? home made medicines?
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blech. I meant good ones like potatoes. heh. Beans are always good, they'll store for a long time.
Does anyone know how to grow peppercorn? to make black pepper? where would we get salt at? home made medicines?
Beans and potatoes will both keep for a long time if kept in a cool dry place.
Hmmm...no idea how to grow peppercorns.
Home made medicines? You will need to talk to someone who knows that stuff like Patriot Lady or Inga....they both know a lot about "folklore" medications.
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Beans and potatoes will both keep for a long time if kept in a cool dry place.
Making sure there is food all year 'round would be a pain. So would starving. If the apples are going bad, make apple sauce, make apple butter... mmmmmm apple butter...
Anyways... olives? They grow olives in the middle east don't they? Oughtta grow in Texas, I would think.
If the crap happens, I do not envy the people who are going to really miss coffee.... I'll miss chocolate of course. I wonder how long before people would specialize again? At least on the side of growing their own food?
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Making sure there is food all year 'round would be a pain. So would starving. If the apples are going bad, make apple sauce, make apple butter... mmmmmm apple butter...
Anyways... olives? They grow olives in the middle east don't they? Oughtta grow in Texas, I would think.
If the crap happens, I do not envy the people who are going to really miss coffee.... I'll miss chocolate of course. I wonder how long before people would specialize again? At least on the side of growing their own food?
I'll miss beer.
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I'll miss beer.
You got 5 acres in this scenario but I guess if you shoot the neighborhood lefty and use his 5-acres to raise hopps and barley, ain't nobody going to say nothing.
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I'll miss beer.
Yeah. But, if you have honey, you can have mead. And that is WAY stronger than beer. :naughty:
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You got 5 acres in this scenario but I guess if you shoot the neighborhood lefty and use his 5-acres to raise hopps and barley, ain't nobody going to say nothing.
Well there ya go...I like the way you think. Then I can barter beer with someone growing food. Dead lefty, food, beer...everybody's happy ('cept the lefty.)
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Yeah. But, if you have honey, you can have mead. And that is WAY stronger than beer. :naughty:
Now, I'm allergic to bees, so you collect the honey and we'll talk.
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Now, I'm allergic to bees, so you collect the honey and we'll talk.
Meh, so am I. But I happen to have a connection with a mead maker. :uhsure: Who also makes beer. :uhsure: But, with grain and hop prices increasing, not so much these days.
That is why I am learning how to can. Trading canned vegetables, sauces and jellies, for BEER. Or Mead.
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It would be cool if someone came into enough cash to set up his own version of Galts Gulch, a defensible place with a dozen or so families, each with a specialty and each with a garden.
Could end up rebuilding society through the generations.
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Well there ya go...I like the way you think. Then I can barter beer with someone growing food. Dead lefty, food, beer...everybody's happy ('cept the lefty.)
Someone has to run the Viking Kitty Inn after all.
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Someone has to run the Viking Kitty Inn after all.
That's something I could do. Whew, looks like I'll have a place in society after all.
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I'm just about to close on 5 acres in Arizona. Barn, chicken coop, well, fruit trees ect... Just put down some dough on a Winchester...got some bags of rice and beans (I actually like Mesikin food and can make some dishes fairly well)
I figure if stuff gets so bad that people indeed, have to fend for themselves, I'll grow and process delicacies. Stuff people would trade basics for. Apple pie, pate, junk like that. Where I live now is horse and game country so I suspect I already have some neighbors who are in "survivalist" mode.
Swell. We can go hunt Javalinas together and form some sort of bacon consortium.
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blech. I meant good ones like potatoes. heh. Beans are always good, they'll store for a long time.
Does anyone know how to grow peppercorn? to make black pepper? where would we get salt at? home made medicines?
From seeds. (http://www.reimerseeds.com/peppercorns-black-pepper.aspx)
Piper nigrum. Perennial. Plant produces black peppercorns. Peppercorns are dried and used to make black pepper. You can grow this tropical tree in containers and bring them indoor in the fall. Try growing your own black pepper plant! pk/20
Planting Instructions: Black pepper requires rich soil, plenty of water, humid conditions, and partial shade. Plant seeds indoors 1/2" deep. Keep temperature between 75 and 85 degrees. After seeds have germinated, keep soil moist and from drying out. Transplant in larger pots as seedling grows.
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That's something I could do. Whew, looks like I'll have a place in society after all.
You would be an evil, capitalist, "rich" Publican!! :naughty:
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I'm just about to close on 5 acres in Arizona. Barn, chicken coop, well, fruit trees ect... Just put down some dough on a Winchester...got some bags of rice and beans (I actually like
Swell. We can go hunt Javalinas together and form some sort of bacon consortium.
Isn't Arizona kind of hot and dry?
Well if enough of us peasants get together we can build a keep! heh.
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From seeds. (http://www.reimerseeds.com/peppercorns-black-pepper.aspx)
from seeds. Of course :thatsright: why didn't I think of that?
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I suppose some parts of Arizona get hot. I don't know. I live up in the mountains about an hour from Flagstaff. The flat "hot" bits of the state seem exceedingly well suited for insane, helmetless banzai motorcycle runs across the desert floor.
But if stuff gets bad I'll most likely stay up in the mountains and put around on the Triumph. (It has carburetors so I can convert it to run on practically anything...take that EFI jerks.)
But you can't survive alone. I plan on exploiting...um, cooperating as much as possible with my neighbors even if everything turns out O.K. and the economy starts farting pixie dust out of its butt.
Oh, and although beer is tasty, Whiskey is where its at as far as trading purposes go.
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5 acres for Galts Gulch isn't really enough - but in a "complete society collapse" type survival situation I strongly suspect that 5 acres would grow somewhat.
Anyway..
As for meat crops - Chickens , Goats , Pigs. Maybe some bunnies or guinea pigs.
Fruit crops - Mango, lychee , assorted citrus , guava , and a whole bunch of other crops that grow quite well in the climate I have to work with.
Grain type crops - yams , rice , sweet potato , macadamia nuts , coconuts and some others I can't think of right now.
I still need to figure out a decent producer of usable sugar for fermentation.
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Oh, and although beer is tasty, Whiskey is where its at as far as trading purposes go.
It is also remarkably easy to produce once you've had a bit of practice.
The base product can also be used to fuel generators once they're modified to burn it correctly.
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What? Aren't you up in Queensland? Isn't that where sugar cane comes from? If Australia doesn't produce cane, sugar beets work pretty well...I guess...even though it fugged' up the recipe for Coke here in the states.
But being where you are, wouldn't you have to work less to survive?
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Oh all right. Just use raisins for fermentation. And sugar...plums, maybe a lil' brandy. Just dump it all in a big wooden keg for a few months. It comes out all bubbly and sweet.
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What? Aren't you up in Queensland? Isn't that where sugar cane comes from? If Australia doesn't produce cane, sugar beets work pretty well...I guess...even though it fugged' up the recipe for Coke here in the states.
But being where you are, wouldn't you have to work less to survive?
Sugarcane is a very land and labor intensive crop per ton of refined product. It's also quite bad for the land. There's gotta be a way to get more value from less acreage and toilage from another product.
Ideally yes , I will have to work "less" to survive given the rich variety of crops that can be grown on the north tropical coast here.
I can make a pretty nice sweet wine from several types of fruit, as well as ginger. Coconuts ferment well too. Most of the things that can be fermented that grow around here- I'd fermented and drunk. Before I hit 16.
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Excellent!
But now we get to the nitty gritty. Sure cane is tough on dirt, so is tobacco. I doubt however, if the demand for those two items would diminish. So how do we keep the survivors well fed and content with lady nicotine?
Indentured Servitude. Yup. Lots of folks won't have the land, resources or skill to make it in "Galts Gulch". And I'm sure some of them will find some way of surviving that will inconvenience the rest of us. So why not use that surplus labor to make your life easier? I'd much rather sit on a horse all day long with a bull whip in my hand than grub in the dirt for my food.
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Excellent!
But now we get to the nitty gritty. Sure cane is tough on dirt, so is tobacco. I doubt however, if the demand for those two items would diminish. So how do we keep the survivors well fed and content with lady nicotine?
Indentured Servitude. Yup. Lots of folks won't have the land, resources or skill to make it in "Galts Gulch". And I'm sure some of them will find some way of surviving that will inconvenience the rest of us. So why not use that surplus labor to make your life easier? I'd much rather sit on a horse all day long with a bull whip in my hand than grub in the dirt for my food.
As a matter of fact - there used to be a big tobacco growing region around here - the government legislated it away. If you're careful you can get packages of land that still have the drying sheds on them.
Indentured servitude I'm not real big on. Slaves need to be fed and watered and looked after to make good labor which costs many valuable resources.
I'm more a fan of the extended family - or an organized unit of like minded and equally contributing individuals.
Externally that translates to a barter system or even establishing a local area currency for use between nearby groups of people.
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Yes, I would like to find some tobacco seeds and experiment. But they're harder to find than pot seeds. Pot seeds.
But I'm not talking about slavery. All I'm suggesting is that the inhabitants of Galts Gulch be prepared to deal with...um...unprepared people. Indentured servitude would give this human flotsam and jetsam, dare I say it, Hope.
And it would give me an excuse to ride around my property with a bullwhip.
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What? Aren't you up in Queensland? Isn't that where sugar cane comes from? If Australia doesn't produce cane, sugar beets work pretty well...I guess...even though it fugged' up the recipe for Coke here in the states.
But being where you are, wouldn't you have to work less to survive?
Not so sure on betting the farm on vegies. Living on the coast there is a world of food out there just waiting to be fried up. Can be caught in nets or on a hook.
So much depends on the weather when planting crops.
5 acres is fine for scrub goats that give milk and hair to weave into clothing. Beef cows are just left on their own to survive as are hogs that get fat on acorns. The woods up here yield tons of nuts and berrys, have to look at what the indeginous people lived on if they were hunter gatheres.
Today we have all these plant diseases that we never had before, with nothing to combat the bugs, we will have to go to a meat eating society. Lots of vegies grow wild, grapes and greens.
Humans need fat, animal fat, one can starve to death eating rodents, or non fat carrying anamals.
What is that group in Africa that survives on just the blood and milk from their cows.?
Escomos that survived for 2,000 years on fat and the meat of what they could catch. Not one Vegetable in their intire life.
Places in the Andies people raise and comsume Ginnie pigs, some societies eat pigeon, we call it Dove, same thing.
We ajust to conditions and food is perhaps the most important. We milk and use for butter,yougert and cheese, camels, yacks and any thing that gives out milk, including humans.
Harvesting food from the ground is one heck of a hard thing to do, milking a sheep and eating lamb chops is oh so much easier.
We have to wait 90 days for vegies to mature, in that time one hog can drop 8-10 piglets that can fatten up in the field.
We are talking about survival here, our bodys change to what foods we injest. I have seen the drawings of the people from the far north when we first began exploring, their livers had expanded to process the high fat diet. Then there is the diet of the Norse Men and familys that was very high in cows milk, their hight began to grow.
Use what you have, never depend on nature to feed you, go with what you know will feed you and yours. A tomato may one day cost a fortune, but one can live without that treat.
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I better figure out a way to obtain chocolate....cause if I run out...it won't matter if there are any "bad guys" left....I will be able to take care of them all by myself... :uhsure:
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Just for the hell of it, August of last year my son and I planted some peas....my mother would have kicked my butt for the way I did it... :rotf: I chopped a 20 foot long trench in the lawn with a hacket and put peas in it about an inch deep and 2 inches apart....they came up and did well....I put grass clippings around then to kill the grass so I wouldn't have grass growing in them....6 weeks later I was eating peas....then the frost killed them. I just wanted to see if it would work.
So if push came to shove you could grow some stuff most any kind of way.
I got a 100+ acres (I rent it to farmers) but I have been thinking about cutting 20 or so acres out and getting a couple or three cows.
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Yes, I would like to find some tobacco seeds and experiment. But they're harder to find than pot seeds. Pot seeds.
http://www.thetobaccoseed.com/
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Vestas' right on the money. I hope you keep that assessment to yourself though, as it would tend to undermine the whole premise of my sla..um..indentured servitude labor force.
Here's where I live, this is the end of my driveway.
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/121/l_787bf7ad8e7b438884acd2c52e90126f.jpg)
So I'm going to be eating a lot of meat. But I like the way Mrs. Deb thinks. Were I able to grow coco beans, I would use my surplus labor force to build some sort of evil Willy Wonka factory. A serious chocoholic wouldn't mind that the salt required for chocolate manufacture came from the bitter tears of my surplus labor force...who for legal reasons will henceforth be referred to as "Umpa Lumpas".
But yeah, Mr. Efa definitely has us all beat when it comes to access to natural resources.
On Edit: Bookmarked the tobacco link. Who knew the interwebs were good for anything like that? And I'm envious of Mr. Reb. Hell, after I'm done consolidating the land adjacent to Casa De Burr, all I'll have is 11 acres.
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But I'm not talking about slavery. All I'm suggesting is that the inhabitants of Galts Gulch be prepared to deal with...um...unprepared people. Indentured servitude would give this human flotsam and jetsam, dare I say it,
If it gets mideival, people who are desperate will work insanely cheap. Room and gruel even. You won't need slaves for that. Water down some beer for the grown-ups and you won't need to worry about them rebelling, stealing maybe.
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So if push came to shove you could grow some stuff most any kind of way.
I got a 100+ acres (I rent it to farmers) but I have been thinking about cutting 20 or so acres out and getting a couple or three cows.
100 acres to boot off squatters and then defend. Maybe hire those farmers, make yourself into a feudal lord.
We need someone to get a good quarry and start getting ready to build a nice castle.
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No,no. We're Americans. I'll probably throw my lot in with the local ranchers and rule with an iron fist from the auspices of the local Grange Hall. It can't get Medieval, a lot of places will still have electrical power for one thing, and a lot of people have gunz. I'm leaning towards more of a rural, Jeffersonian benign despotism myself. Think Judge Roy Bean...but more literate.
And I'm perfectly content to let FedGov take care of the cities. I hope the biggest one I see for the next 20 years is Flagstaff.
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No,no. We're Americans. I'll probably throw my lot in with the local ranchers and rule with an iron fist from the auspices of the local Grange Hall. It can't get Medieval, a lot of places will still have electrical power for one thing, and a lot of people have gunz. I'm leaning towards more of a rural, Jeffersonian benign despotism myself. Think Judge Roy Bean...but more literate.
And I'm perfectly content to let FedGov take care of the cities. I hope the biggest one I see for the next 20 years is Flagstaff.
If TSHTF the cities are going to burn and die.
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Well yeah, I was being tongue in cheek about FedGov taking care of the cities. The implication being that the cities would take FedGov down with them.
But about that 5 acres. I'm going with chickens, apples and blue agave cactus's so I can make tequila to sell. The Triumph converts to bio goop fuel and I shoot the landless hordes roaming the countryside seeking gainful employment as indentured servants and/or Umpa Lumpas.
Low overhead, less paperwork, and the transportation costs for freighting my Tequila to Prescott is pretty much nil.
I still think keeping a sizable population alive is the way to go, but some of you are just hard cases I guess and don't want to share. Fine. More coco beans for me.
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Well yeah, I was being tongue in cheek about FedGov taking care of the cities. The implication being that the cities would take FedGov down with them.
But about that 5 acres. I'm going with chickens, apples and blue agave cactus's so I can make tequila to sell. The Triumph converts to bio goop fuel and I shoot the landless hordes roaming the countryside seeking gainful employment as indentured servants.
Low overhead, less paperwork, and the transportation costs for freighting my Tequila to Prescott is pretty much nil.
I still think keeping a sizable population alive is the way to go, but some of you are just hard cases I guess and don't want to share. Fine. More coco beans for me.
I have lots of chocolate stashed... just in case... :shucks:
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I figure anything I have will be wanted by anyone who doesn't have.
I think I would dry meat and have hard tack to start(both can be made pretty quickly and quietly) and try to avoid everyone else.
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I'm too gregarious to avoid everyone. I'm hoping at least one of my neighbors knows how to make sweet potato pie.
And we'll still keep the space program up and running. I mean, NASA might not, but I bet I could achieve a temporary low earth orbit using an alcohol based fuel.
I'm just not a doom and gloomer. If stuff gets bad, you have to adapt. So I'll do my part by being prepared and wait for the inevitable opportunity where I can exploit...um...extend a helping hand to my fellow man.
Or I'll just write my cabin manifesto and grow a beard. I'm good either way.
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A preliminary essential is a dehydrator. I have two of them at my beck and call. TONS of foods can be dehydrated, storing very easily and very well. In addition, a vacuum sealer would be nice, too. Then there's all of the equipment for canning.
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Say, that's right. Dehydrating would mean I get to have pineapple chunks year round.
Canning deserves it's own thread though. Lots of fiddly bits on the pressure boiler gizmo.
O.K. so we might need...solar panels or what not for electricity, dehydrators and canning junk, cultivation implements and seeds, some reloading equipment, anvil...maybe a forge...dang. How did our ancestors do all this?
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Canning equipment check. Knowledge how to use it? WORKING ON IT.
Dehydrator~ check.
Food Saver~ on the list.
Cheese Making? Working on it.
Bread baking? Got someone.
Beer/Wine/Soda~ Got someone.
I need to learn how to sew.
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Beans and potatoes will both keep for a long time if kept in a cool dry place.
Hmmm...no idea how to grow peppercorns.
Home made medicines? You will need to talk to someone who knows that stuff like Patriot Lady or Inga....they both know a lot about "folklore" medications.
Peppercorn seeds are heirloom seeds. They can be bought athttp://www.cherrygal.com/herb-piper-nigrum-heirloom-seeds-2010-p-11774.html.
This is also a medicinal herb for an astringent and to stop minor bleeding. Once you get your seed to grow into plants, leave a bunch of seeds to dry for your next years crop. You may have to wrap them in a netting such as panty hose to keep the birds from stealing them.You could take the second years seeds and throw them into the fields or forest, for they will come back each year. They are perennial plant ( they come back each year).
There are many herbs to gather in the forest and fields. They could be harvested for food and medical usage. That would be good to purchase a book of your area, to identify plants. And books for herbal preparation.
I would be glad to help anybody needing help in this area for survival purposes only. This is not to take the place of doctors or medicines.
Heirlooms are best for survival. They keep longer.
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I wonder what kind of climate peppercorns need? I guess I am going to have to do some research.
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I'm getting a soil test to determine acidity and PH and whatnot. Then I'll know what will thrive and...um...grow. I'm pretty sure the coco plantation will have to be inside the solarium though. I may go with some hardy berry plants outside. Boysenberry being the money berry of course.
I'll miss rice and flour though, unless the total breakdown of society leads to a return of the steam locomotive and the paddle wheel boat. Otherwise I'll have to portage my wares down the Verde river via doeskin canoe. Ah. And somebody better come up with the instruction manual for growing popcorn plants.
Oh yeah, and Castille soap.
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Canning equipment check. Knowledge how to use it? WORKING ON IT.
I need to learn how to sew.
Chinese masseuse girls!
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I thought you were agin' slavery. Or, as we refer to the unfortunate surplus population here at Burrs' Trading Post, Umpa Lumpas.
You'd be better off hitching the masseuse up to a plow and getting an honest days labor out of her before she has to soap up your feet each evening while getting the corn bread out of the dutch oven and the yams on the table.
Meanwhile, I've decided to open up a bank in Galts Gulch. I figure people are going to need the financial services and stability offered by an institution of the caliber and reputation as the First Bank of Burr. I'll back my notes with Tequila and coco beans while I accumulate enough gold, titles, deeds and/or wampum belts to make my bank a going concern.
Once Galts Gulch becomes a financial powerhouse in the "Second Republic," we'll raise an army staffed with our Umpa Lumpas and convene another Constitutional Convention somewhere in Kansas.
Oh, and we'll renegotiate the Gadsden purchase along the way.
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Once Galts Gulch becomes a financial powerhouse in the "Second Republic," we'll raise an army staffed with our Umpa Lumpas and convene another Constitutional Convention somewhere in Kansas.
It won't be slavery, it'll be funployment. heh.
Long Live the Second Republic!! At least until the politicians go crook again!
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I was kinda' hoping to beat them to it.
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https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/food_storage/year_supply_of_food_deluxe.htm
Clear out that spare bedroom!!
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https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/food_storage/year_supply_of_food_deluxe.htm
Clear out that spare bedroom!!
Gotta wonder what the freight is on 802lbs over here :p
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Gotta wonder what the freight is on 802lbs over here :p
I guess you could always rent a U-Haul and pick it up yourself.
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I allready pretty much garden, can, dehydrate and smoke meats. Gardening is not a easy as you might think. There are lots of pests and blights and stuff out there to ruin it. Alot to learn!
I figure where I live 100 miles north of the Big Apple it will be horror from the mass exodus. So I have a hunting cabin deep in the woods and lots of guns and ammo. I'll just eat the citiots as long as I can. :yum:
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I allready pretty much garden, can, dehydrate and smoke meats. Gardening is not a easy as you might think. There are lots of pests and blights and stuff out there to ruin it. Alot to learn!
I figure where I live 100 miles north of the Big Apple it will be horror from the mass exodus. So I have a hunting cabin deep in the woods and lots of guns and ammo. I'll just eat the citiots as long as I can. :yum:
Just at a guess - but I'd imagine that Manhattan Long Pig wouldn't taste so great.
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I've sorta already had this plan in mind for a while. I have three acres that used to be an apple orchard. Still have a few apple trees left, so I'm set for apples. Have been meaning to put in a couple each of cherries, apricots, pears, and the one kind of peaches that are said to survive here. I would also like to build a self-powered chicken house, with enough solar and wind generation to keep a font heater and a light bulb going. Couple of goats, couple of pigs, and a garden, plus an occasional deer, should keep me from starving.
Speaking of deer, I have a lifetime supply of brass and bullets, but I sold all my primers and powder when I moved cross country. Need to stock those back up.
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Vesta's' right on the money. I hope you keep that assessment to yourself though, as it would tend to undermine the whole premise of my sla..um..indentured servitude labor force.
Here's where I live, this is the end of my driveway.
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/121/l_787bf7ad8e7b438884acd2c52e90126f.jpg)
So I'm going to be eating a lot of meat. But I like the way Mrs. Deb thinks. Were I able to grow coco beans, I would use my surplus labor force to build some sort of evil Willy Wonka factory. A serious chocoholic wouldn't mind that the salt required for chocolate manufacture came from the bitter tears of my surplus labor force...who for legal reasons will henceforth be referred to as "Umpa Lumpas".
But yeah, Mr. Efa definitely has us all beat when it comes to access to natural resources.
On Edit: Bookmarked the tobacco link. Who knew the interwebs were good for anything like that? And I'm envious of Mr. Reb. Hell, after I'm done consolidating the land adjacent to Casa De Burr, all I'll have is 11 acres.
Hummmmm your property has some good possibilities. Have you considered fencing the whole shebang off, buying perhaps 6 baby pigs and turning them loose.? After 2 years the hogs will have tripled if not more and gone wild. Charge hunters to come and hunt the suckers one hog per person. At $350 per head and a day of hunting where only the biggest hogs are taken first year you can clear $3,500 with just 10 hunters.
You can sweeten the pot by selling raffle tickets at $1.00 each in the bars and truck stops and once a week draw a ticket to allow one hunter to pay the fee and hunt -----this way there will just be one hunter a week on your property and you can keep an eye on them.
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I'll just eat the citiots as long as I can. :yum:
Keep this link, you'll need it.
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2008/12/12/cannibals-in-papua-new-guinea/japanese-taste-best-whites-are-too-salty.html
The experts say that the Japanese taste the best. White people are to salty and black females are the best eating. I'd start with dark meat and work my way down to the worst....that is if I had a choice. But if the SHTF, I guess I'd just have to take whatever came my way.
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If the SHTF....depending on who is leading the charge for destruction...we may not have to worry about it.
Being only 20 minutes from Oak Ridge...where the largest supply of nuclear materials is kept.....we could end up just going KA-BOOM....
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If the SHTF....depending on who is leading the charge for destruction...we may not have to worry about it.
Being only 20 minutes from Oak Ridge...where the largest supply of nuclear materials is kept.....we could end up just going KA-BOOM....
Not if it is a biological attack.......... ;)
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Not if it is a biological attack.......... ;)
Have you looked on a map where I live? Smack dab in the middle of the TVA system! We are more concerned here about a biological attack into our waters than anything.
About the only way to hit the Oak Ridge plants is by air. Since 9/11, the gates have been moved further away from the buildings, there are lots of concrete barriers....and the guards are mostly former military...particularly Marines. I'm blanking on the name of the company that provides the security. But I had a client that worked for them. Former Marine who won awards for sharpshooting(his wife had them framed and I saw them on the wall).
We have thousands of miles of accessible shoreline...on waters that provide not only our drinking water, but also our electricity.
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Have you looked on a map where I live? Smack dab in the middle of the TVA system! We are more concerned here about a biological attack into our waters than anything.
About the only way to hit the Oak Ridge plants is by air. Since 9/11, the gates have been moved further away from the buildings, there are lots of concrete barriers....and the guards are mostly former military...particularly Marines. I'm blanking on the name of the company that provides the security. But I had a client that worked for them. Former Marine who won awards for sharpshooting(his wife had them framed and I saw them on the wall).
We have thousands of miles of accessible shoreline...on waters that provide not only our drinking water, but also our electricity.
Deb, there is typically no "Ka-BOOM" associated with a biological attack, therefore making your Nuc Pwr Plant irrelevent. Even a NUC attack on Knoxville probably wouldn't make the Pwr plant explode. (Sparky could answer that better than I)
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Deb, there is typically no "Ka-BOOM" associated with a biological attack, therefore making your Nuc Pwr Plant irrelevent. Even a NUC attack on Knoxville probably wouldn't make the Pwr plant explode. (Sparky could answer that better than I)
Let's try this again....
Bad guys aren't going to hit Oak Ridge by biological attack. The only way to hit Y-12 would be by air or an insider. Y-12 is not a nuclear power plant. Y-12 is a huge compound, covering miles, it is where the Manhattan Project was. K-25 is also over there and it is currently being dismantled....and has been in the process for several years and will continue for several years more.
I know there is not a KA-BOOM with a biological attack. :tongue:
The TVA system is totally separate from the OR facilities....though the OR facilities have had a very detrimental effect on the TVA system due to all the contaminates that OR has put into the waters and water table for 40-50 years.
Obviously they no longer do, but the damage was done years and years ago. There is so much nuclear contaminated materials buried in the OR area...that no one even knows where it's all buried. Which is why so much of the wildlife over there is "altered" - extra eyes, missing legs, etc....and why only those desperate for food will eat the fish caught in the waters downstream from OR.
Back on a biological attack....it has been a major concern around here since 9/11, that it would be so easy for terrorists to contaminate the TVA system or to blow up one of the dams. Obviously the dams are well patrolled but it is impossible guard the shorelines against terrorists.
Although...those TVA guys are very good at determining if you've put in an illegal dock or you cut down any trees on your property that TVA has an easement. TVA has easements along every bit of shoreline in the TVA system. While a landowner may "own" the land several feet - sometimes 100's of feet - out into the water, they are not allowed to build within a specified footage of the "TVA high water line". In most cases, that high water line is never going to see water unless The Great Flood arrives...but nevertheless...TVA makes the rules and a landowner is not even allowed to cut down a tree on that easement. TVA routinely takes shoreline pictures, and woe to the landowner who makes any changes without written permission from TVA. The fines imposed on the landowner are quite high. (the only reason I know as much about this is because I have had buyers who bought waterfront property and sellers who have sold waterfront - lots of additional paperwork concerning shoreline, docks, permits, etc. must accompany the documents)
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Speaking of deer, I have a lifetime supply of brass and bullets, but I sold all my primers and powder when I moved cross country. Need to stock those back up.
Throw down some corn and potatoes and it sounds like a plan
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(http://blog.spout.com/wp-content/uploads/blinky.gif)
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(http://blog.spout.com/wp-content/uploads/blinky.gif)
You've been fishin' over here?
Seriously, there are 3-eyed fish.
Depending on where certain deer are hunted, they are supposed to be taken to the TWRA to be checked with a geiger counter.
I won't even show houses over there, let alone sell them.
Had a client that was moved here with Bechtel to do K-25 clean-up (he was an environmental engineer)...he asked to see houses in OR and I suggested he work with an agent from OR. He laughed and said nope, I'll keep you. Just wanted to see if I would show him OR. He had no intentions of wanting to live there.
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You've been fishin' over here?
Seriously, there are 3-eyed fish.
Does not sound a good place to live to me. either.
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O.K. After a meeting with the board members it's been unanimously decided that Vesta is now the new C.F.O. of the First Bank of Burr. I'll be consolidating my acreage this year and hope to have the first Alexander Hamilton Memorial Pig Shoot sometime this fall.
In the meantime we're still stuck with 5 acres, just like Floyds' doomsday scenario.
So to survive I'm going to need.
Canning Junk
Dehydration junk
Lead and Lead delivery systems
Seeds and the wherewithal regarding their usage
Water
Livestock
Soap making materials
And oh yeah, either a lathe or spare parts for every conceivable gizmo, widget and funny looking metal dealie that I would ever possibly need.
So I guess I have to build a brick oven outside for when the propane runs out and the stove doesn't work anymore.
Wouldn't this whole scenario work out better if our country was the one blasting all the other ones back to the stone age? I've decided I like the modern world and all it's conveniences.
Toothpaste springs to mind. As does toilet paper. Screw chocolate hoarding. The new king of America is going to be the guy with a warehouse full of Charmin.
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AB - I recommend having some things that can work in several ways. You mention toothpaste. How about baking soda which can be used for brushing teeth, as an abrasive for cleaning, and to soothe an upset stomache if you try to eat something that doesn't agree with you, but doesn't kill ya either.
Just an example, I'm not picking on ya.
That's kind of how we pack when we go to cow camps. For some interesting reading the Outward Bound books and some of the old Firefox stuff gives good ideas on reducing the number of things you need. I haven't had to spend months in a camp for a few years, but I still live a pretty minimal existance as far as stuff goes. I think I'd miss the internet the most! And my cell phone! :whatever:
If things didn't get too squirrely, I think most hard working people would adapt just fine. And a bunch of the others don't know how to shoot.
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Keep this link, you'll need it.
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2008/12/12/cannibals-in-papua-new-guinea/japanese-taste-best-whites-are-too-salty.html
The experts say that the Japanese taste the best. White people are to salty and black females are the best eating. I'd start with dark meat and work my way down to the worst....that is if I had a choice. But if the SHTF, I guess I'd just have to take whatever came my way.
Back in the gold-rush days on the Palmer River goldfield here , the natives had a clear preference for the Chinese miners. The Chinese had a much better diet - far more greens and less meat than the European miners.
You are what you eat indeed.
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O.K. After a meeting with the board members it's been unanimously decided that Vesta is now the new C.F.O. of the First Bank of Burr. I'll be consolidating my acreage this year and hope to have the first Alexander Hamilton Memorial Pig Shoot sometime this fall.
In the meantime we're still stuck with 5 acres, just like Floyds' doomsday scenario.
So to survive I'm going to need.
Canning Junk
Dehydration junk
Lead and Lead delivery systems
Seeds and the wherewithal regarding their usage
Water
Livestock
Soap making materials
...
Soap is fairly easy to manufacture - animal fat and lye essentially.
Depending on what timber is available, lye can be made by leeching the ash from your stove or heater ash pan.
As for the luxury of toilet paper - I believe "paper" money is washable. Ain't gonna be much good for anything else.
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. As does toilet paper. Screw chocolate hoarding. The new king of America is going to be the guy with a warehouse full of Charmin.
Must have TP.....MUST!!!
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Must have TP.....MUST!!!
What's the matter?? You don't like "drip dry"???
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Hmmm. So it looks like Galts Gulch would be a success were it populated solely by members of this website. It looks really, really hard for one family to be completely self sufficient. Neighbors would be an invaluable asset in a scenario like Floyds.
I like the baking soda idea and others like it. 90% of stuff in the modern world most of us could get by without having. But it looks like Galts Gulch will be the main exporters of coco beans and toilet paper during the initial months of the Second Republic.
Since I really am about to move into 5 acres in a rural area, I think I might start a thread about the perils and pitfalls of self sufficiency. I'll make soap and pies and whatnot, jerk venison and learn up on candle making and leather curing.
Oh. And it looks like besides generating my own power I'm going to have to become my own internet service provider. Fine. But I'll be charging usurious rates to keep all you internet addicts up and running.
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Funny. This has been a discussion for a year or so with my boyfriend and me. I would like to say it is because we are worried about the SHTF, but really, we just don't like big crowds of stupid people.
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I saw a neat trick on Les Stroud's survival show yesterday... cotton balls smeared with petroleum jelly make a good kindling/firestarter.
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I saw a neat trick on Les Stroud's survival show yesterday... cotton balls smeared with petroleum jelly make a good kindling/firestarter.
If you can still find the individual wrapped "wet-naps" that have alcohol on them, they work well too, but burn faster.
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I saw a neat trick on Les Stroud's survival show yesterday... cotton balls smeared with petroleum jelly make a good kindling/firestarter.
Any wicking material should do the same job. Paper at a pinch. Wrap it around a stick if need be.
I think it was petroleum jelly that we used to fuel lamps made from a shoe polish can - a piece of cotton - and a paperclip.
(No Mcguyver cracks)
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Great Scott!! Why don't we rub sticks together to make fire and simply grunt at one another in order to communicate? No,no. BurrInc. and its subsidiaries will survive this imaginary apocalypse in style. Coco trees in the Solarium and toilet paper manufacturing plant out back. Toilet Paper (http://www.ehow.com/how_4514690_make-toilet-paper.html)
Floyd's original scenario imagines an America gone Medieval. I dunno', maybe in the big cities, who knows? I imagine an America gone Deadwood. I guess I'd get depressed if all my neighbors started getting bowl cuts and began wearing burlap. Casual gunplay and horse droppings I can deal with.
Anyway, it turns out in order to make decent soap I have to use olives. So I started thinkin'. Let's say we're trading in post meltdown America. What's a bar of soap worth? I had to use olives to make them. Olives that would otherwise have been eaten....not by me of course, maybe the Mrs. would have enjoyed them.
How many chocolate bars would I get for a bar of Ivory? Conversely, what's a bottle of Tequila worth? Cloth? Hell, I know I'm not about to spin, weave and sew me up a new shirt. How many of my precious coco beans will it take to get some peanut butter?
Since I live in the high country all I'd potentially bring to the bargaining table would be animal hides and the aforementioned tequila. Maybe some T.P. What cha' got to trade, flatlanders? Gunpowder? Delicacies? Old comic books?
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Must have TP.....MUST!!!
Deb,Think newspaper. http://ezinearticles.com/?Disaster-Preparedness---Coping-Without-Toilet-Paper&id=1050229
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Deb,Think newspaper. http://ezinearticles.com/?Disaster-Preparedness---Coping-Without-Toilet-Paper&id=1050229
read the article.....and the proper way to use water....ewwwww.
I'm going to be stocking up on toilet paper and chocolate... :-)
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Madame. I popped out my monocle reading that article. If TP is the defining element of civilized society, then Burr Industries will be prepared to meet the sanitary needs of post apocalyptic America with gold edged, double ply, embroidered "curl papers."
I may have to put the TP manufacturing plant on double shifts to keep up with the expected demand.
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Since I really am about to move into 5 acres in a rural area, I think I might start a thread about the perils and pitfalls of self sufficiency. I'll make soap and pies and whatnot, jerk venison and learn up on candle making and leather curing.
On that five acres, you're going to want to think "security". Good vision of any people coming to your house, no "blind spots", alarm systems of some sort, etc. You'll need to consider what walls will protect you and what walls won't. (If it's vinyl siding and drywall, most bullets will penetrate those with ease. Brick houses will be the best. Then there's the whole home defense issue. Ammunition will be at a premium. IMO, it may even become the new "currency" in this kind of situation.
Floyd will be screwed as he lives in a metro area. I don't know if he has friends/ family in the rural areas.
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Damn, it's like this place has turned into Megaton City. :-)
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Damn, it's like this place has turned into Megaton City. :-)
Always good to see another Fallout fan around :cheersmate:
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I guess it's Galts Gulch, although eventually I'm hoping to rename it Aaronopolis. Floyd will most likely head over to my place (if you fall in the Grand Canyon you've gone too far) after dodging Injuns', Mad Max dudes on dirt bikes and the obligatory mutated and giant Gila monsters that inevitably appear across the landscape after any apocalyptic nightmare. I'll swap out his burlap sack for some Justins and canvas britches and he can be my Overseer, riding herd over my (eventual) 11 acre agave empire and toilet paper factory.
But about that 5 acres...
House is on a knoll, a grassy knoll, and has stone walls for 3 of the 4 walls on the first floor. I got's me a well and pressure tanks. Mature tress surround the house, some fruit, mostly pine. Barn with 4 horse stalls, chicken coop. Big flat area fenced off from the bigger, less flat area with house on another flat area above. It's been fenced and gated with an electric top wire for horses. I have a few neighbors and they mostly have the same or much bigger sized lots and homes. The Ruger manufacturing plant is right down the road and Chino Valley is packed cheek to jowl with gun shops, smiths, specialists, hand loaders, training facilities and guide services. Please believe me when I say that obtaining gunz n' ammo won't be an issue. Hhhmm. If bullets become currency, I may find myself living in quite a cosmopolitan setting after all.
I think the town library was originally constructed out of spare ammunition and saltpeter.
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I sure hope it don't come to this. That said I have thought about it for quite some time. In my vision the first year or so will decide who lives or dies. I'm sure it will be horror blood and guts. Then it my settle down with neighbors helping and trading. But to live through the inital onslaught you will have to be prepared and in my case living so near NYC I'm sure it will be hit or miss. I allways thought I might have to bug out and head for the big woods. You people that live out west and far away from big citys are the lucky ones but it will trickle to you eventually.
I have 2 packs of bug out gear ready at all times. Guns, ammo, firestarter, water filters, tent and camp gear and many cases of MRE's. The plan is to load the 4 wheeler and the truck and head for the hills I have a few destinations acording to what happens on the road war along the way. I am prepared to kill or be killed. Heven help us if it comes.
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I guess it's Galts Gulch, although eventually I'm hoping to rename it Aaronopolis. Floyd will most likely head over to my place (if you fall in the Grand Canyon you've gone too far) after dodging Injuns', Mad Max dudes on dirt bikes and the obligatory mutated and giant Gila monsters that inevitably appear across the landscape after any apocalyptic nightmare. I'll swap out his burlap sack for some Justins and canvas britches and he can be my Overseer, riding herd over my (eventual) 11 acre agave empire and toilet paper factory.
But about that 5 acres...
House is on a knoll, a grassy knoll, and has stone walls for 3 of the 4 walls on the first floor. I got's me a well and pressure tanks. Mature tress surround the house, some fruit, mostly pine. Barn with 4 horse stalls, chicken coop. Big flat area fenced off from the bigger, less flat area with house on another flat area above. It's been fenced and gated with an electric top wire for horses. I have a few neighbors and they mostly have the same or much bigger sized lots and homes. The Ruger manufacturing plant is right down the road and Chino Valley is packed cheek to jowl with gun shops, smiths, specialists, hand loaders, training facilities and guide services. Please believe me when I say that obtaining gunz n' ammo won't be an issue. Hhhmm. If bullets become currency, I may find myself living in quite a cosmopolitan setting after all.
I think the town library was originally constructed out of spare ammunition and saltpeter.
Saltpeter, was that not what the US Army gave to the troops in WW1.? Seems like I have a vague memory of my grandmother telling me that she was amazed when she went to NM. [ Demming] got married and became pregnant as my Grandpa was being fed this stuff everyday on base.
Who is that woman, the evangelist, she has a large following and all live in cement underground bunkers. Sara Christian something.? I wonder if her group still has goats feeding on the roofs of the homes.?
One must throw out anything with an electric cord, forget the public water works, find someone with an artesian well. Dig a 3 holler out back, no sewage treatment -----Lord who will collect the trash.? No electric curlers for woman's hair, time to rip up rags and make curls as woman have done for 5,000 years.
As mentioned before by a poster the Fox Fire books are the top of the survival manuals, step by step on how to do most anything and survive following the lives of those who built America 200 years ago.
If for instance I could see into a Chrystal ball and see disaster in the next year, first thing I would do is to search the country for a Singer Treadle sewing machine. Owning one of these machines would be a gold mine for barter. A peck of potatoes in exchange for doing a repair job that takes 5 minutes on a garmet that would take 4 hours to do by hand.
I do believe I would scour the shops for used bicycles, tires and frames. Nails ,screws ,bolts and all manual tools, would be great to find a peddle driven wet stone to sharpen knives and saws that have gone dull. Old tools, manual planes and 2 man saws.
It will take a very long time before we would have to relearn how to card and turn wool into cloth.
We will have to go back to the old time distrust of strangers, anyone different could carry plague and contagion. New ideas that could transform the comunity. Throw them out, they may have radiation poisoning and raise a family of 3 eyed kids.
Possible trading items=====
Pencils, old fashion with eraser.
Tweezers and tongs.
A few thousand yards of cheese cloth------For drying meat and vegetables. also used for medical emergency's.
For Cats, I would advise him to take all his bugout gear and rent beg buy or steal a big Haul. No one is going to come looking for the truck in an all out disaster.
Drive until you run out of gas and hope there is good water to access. The tent can be pitched inside the truck, no worry about high winds or bears. The body of the truck will be dry and a better shelter then a cave.
Drain the oil from the engine, it may be usefull for oiling weapons or getting rid of head lice.
There are those old time pot wood burners still for sale that with a small hole in the roof of the truck for ventilation heat up the shebang at 40 below outside and 80 degrees inside safely.
Heading out with a tent and ammo is crazy, one cannot carry a years worth of freeze dried food on their back-----
OK Cats, say I have 5 acres up north to head to for safety. I as an old lady am going to walk 150 miles to get to a place that has nothing but a roof and walls.?
Get real, we never or seldom do gets the heads up warning. You may be at work 25 miles from home, you can have $2,000 worth of bug out equipment but what does that do for you at the place you are when the SHTF.
Everything depends on the timing, if at home and hear that a large city has been KA_BOOMED or 25 miles from home.
Me at my age I hope to heck I am directly under the BOOM-----I do not want to give a thought to my family much younger then I and the horrors they will face.
Remember the old movie where the pilot of a plane road down the the atom bomb.
If you are at the dentists getting a root canal and the staff run in to say a city 80 miles away have been nuked, all electricity goes out , now what do you do,?????
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Remember the old movie where the pilot of a plane road down the the atom bomb.
Yeah...DR. Strangelove....watched it on TV Sunday. My son laughed his butt off at Slim Pickens riding the A-Bomb down.
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I guess it's Galts Gulch, although eventually I'm hoping to rename it Aaronopolis. Floyd will most likely head over to my place (if you fall in the Grand Canyon you've gone too far) after dodging Injuns', Mad Max dudes on dirt bikes and the obligatory mutated and giant Gila monsters that inevitably appear across the landscape after any apocalyptic nightmare. I'll swap out his burlap sack for some Justins and canvas britches and he can be my Overseer, riding herd over my (eventual) 11 acre agave empire and toilet paper factory.
But about that 5 acres...
House is on a knoll, a grassy knoll, and has stone walls for 3 of the 4 walls on the first floor. I got's me a well and pressure tanks. Mature tress surround the house, some fruit, mostly pine. Barn with 4 horse stalls, chicken coop. Big flat area fenced off from the bigger, less flat area with house on another flat area above. It's been fenced and gated with an electric top wire for horses. I have a few neighbors and they mostly have the same or much bigger sized lots and homes. The Ruger manufacturing plant is right down the road and Chino Valley is packed cheek to jowl with gun shops, smiths, specialists, hand loaders, training facilities and guide services. Please believe me when I say that obtaining gunz n' ammo won't be an issue. Hhhmm. If bullets become currency, I may find myself living in quite a cosmopolitan setting after all.
I think the town library was originally constructed out of spare ammunition and saltpeter.
Your setup sounds pretty decent with one exception, the well. How are you going to access the water if the power goes out?? Do you have solar or wind power that will power the well pump?? A generator will only last so long and the fuel for it even less.
While there is not a LOT of land where we live, there are deer, coons, and other wildlife in the vicinity. Not to mention that there are several creeks and Lake Texoma very near by. Water should not be a major problem. Then there's the whole fishing thing at the lake & the Red River (all within 1/2 mile)
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Your setup sounds pretty decent with one exception, the well. How are you going to access the water if the power goes out?? Do you have solar or wind power that will power the well pump?? A generator will only last so long and the fuel for it even less.
While there is not a LOT of land where we live, there are deer, coons, and other wildlife in the vicinity. Not to mention that there are several creeks and Lake Texoma very near by. Water should not be a major problem. Then there's the whole fishing thing at the lake & the Red River (all within 1/2 mile)
Windmills have been used to drive pumps for wells for hundreds of years.
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Windmills have been used to drive pumps for wells for hundreds of years.
I'm not arguing that. I know that very well. However, if one doesn't have something already in place when the SHTF, it's probably too late to get something in place.
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Must have TP.....MUST!!!
Didn't the Romans use a rag ties to a stick?
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Wouldn't olive trees grow well out there?
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Wouldn't olive trees grow well out there?
Oh my.
You wanted a long thread, and you got one, sir.
Congratulations!
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Floyd will be screwed as he lives in a metro area. I don't know if he has friends/ family in the rural areas.
SIL's parents have 11 acres with a pond outside of Terrel! That sounds good as long as we have ammo. Still a bit close to a major metro area though
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Damn, it's like this place has turned into Megaton City. :-)
I liked that game... I think its was #3
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House is on a knoll, a grassy knoll, and has stone walls for 3 of the 4 walls on the first floor. I got's me a well and pressure tanks. Mature tress surround the house, some fruit, mostly pine. Barn with 4 horse stalls, chicken coop. Big flat area fenced off from the bigger, less flat area with house on another flat area above. It's been fenced and gated with an electric top wire for horses. I have a few neighbors and they mostly have the same or much bigger sized lots and homes. The Ruger manufacturing plant is right down the road and Chino Valley is packed cheek to jowl with gun shops, smiths, specialists, hand loaders, training facilities and guide services. Please believe me when I say that obtaining gunz n' ammo won't be an issue. Hhhmm. If bullets become currency, I may find myself living in quite a cosmopolitan setting after all.
I think the town library was originally constructed out of spare ammunition and saltpeter.
Cool.
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Oh my.
You wanted a long thread, and you got one, sir.
Congratulations!
I doubt this whole topic would have been as popular a few years ago. But with the economy and the idiots in charge, it does look like some grim times for at least a few years.
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O.K. about that well. Sure I'm going to need an alternative source of power. As mentioned, solar and wind would work. But I'm a fan of machinery so I'm going with a big fat sterling engine to power a dynamo to produce electricity to run the pump to keep my corrupt and corpulent slag heap of a body less stinkafied.
But first I need to close on the property.
Chino Valley Arizona sits on top of a giant aquifer. It's so big that it serves as the headwaters of the Verde river. Look on Mapquest for Chino and you'll see the river dumping out all over the ground up by Paulden. We've got lakes and mountains, forests and enormous tracks of open grassland. Best of all is the location. I live in no-wheresville daddy-o and I love it.
If I could figure out how to capture a picture off of Mapquest I'd post the aerial shot of the spread. That way everybody could tell me where to put the outdoor oven, smokehouse, icehouse and pig sty.
And just for the record, I'm doing this not because I think the whole world is going to Hell in a hand basket but because I want a different lifestyle.
Plus, I want a Cowboy hat.
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And just for the record, I'm doing this not because I think the whole world is going to Hell in a hand basket but because I want a different lifestyle.
Plus, I want a Cowboy hat.
Good for you! I am on that path, and hope to be somewhere like that within the next 10 years, provided the Mayans were wrong, and the S hasn't HTF yet.
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First of all, a REAL cowboy EARNS their hat........
I'd keep the outdoor over, smokehouse and ice house fairly close to the house (within 25 yards). The Pig sty I would put far enough away from the house as to avoid any drifting or wafting odors from it, but close enough to draw a bead on any trespassers after your pigs.
While machinery is fine, you would require something to power said machinery, such as gas or diesel. Those will run out or not be available fairly quickly. You need to think back to the 1800s, when machinery wasn't all that popular or necessary. Solar or wind (windmills work quite nicely when there IS a breeze). In the SW, solar would be pretty practical as you have many more sunny days than not. Also, contemplate solar water heating. I remember when I was in Desert Storm. WE has natural hot water because of the heat. I rarely used the hot water in the showers as the "cold" water was sufficiently hot.
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No,no. I can assure you that all I have to do is go down to the local boot barn and pick out a hat. I've done it before so I know that method works.
But sterling engines have been around since 1895.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBZDJn6B0cs&feature=PlayList&p=A95452048044BEF7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3[/youtube]
Or I could go with an 8 stroke old timey engine. If I didn't have a fire source, I'd use a Fresnel lens to heat the engine. But yeah. I plan on coasting though the Apocalypse in my 62' Chevy and clean underwear.
And speaking of coasting though something... how did we get this far without posting any recipes? Let's start with the essentials. Bacon.
Anybody know how to slaughter a hog, dress the meat and smoke it? How long will a side of smoked bacon last?
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When you are off the grid - petroleum products are like gold.
You're going to have to use more old fashioned direct motivation products like steam, wind and horse to drive most things - lathes and tools , pumps , mills , tilling and planting machines etc.
One can produce alcohol or methane fuels (methane is especially convenient if you also grow ruminants) which can be burned either as heating fuel for a boiler or in a remanufactured internal combustion engine.
My main concern has been refrigeration - without that in this climate and you must pretty much preserve everything off directly off the field all year round. Which brings me to something that many non-coastal dwellers may not have considered.
Salt. Where do you get it if you don't live on the coast ?
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[Texan] Well, maybe in AZ. Those "cowboys" that just go out and buy a hat without properly "earning' it are usually referred to as "Rexall Raiders" or "Drugstore Cowboys". This is also how the adage, "all hat and no cattle" came into being. [/Texan]
As far as smoking hog belly sidemeat, one needs a smoker. Then, they need to make sure that they can "cold" smoke something. That entails re-routing the smoke away from the heat into a different smoking vessel. As far as it "lasting", I would suppose that it would last as long as a smoked, salt cured ham. Once cut into, then the "keep rate" would diminish. I couldn't find a definitive answer on that. I DO know that Virginia Hams are smoked and salt cured and last quite a while. Any mold is then cut off, the ham is soaked in water or milk to reduce it's saltiness and then cooked. Once cooked and carved for serving, they tend to only last a week, maybe two in the fridge.
LC EFA, there are salt mines that are inland. I have one not too far from here in Texas (3 Hr Drive in today's world): http://www.grandsaline.com/edb/salt01.htm
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Burrs' Trading Post already has a drayage contract with Camp Verde across the valley. They've got a salt mine. But that is an excellent point, people need to know where salt licks are, or how to pump it out from underground. Just one more reason that a cohesive neighborhood would stand a far better chance of survival than a loner. Teamwork allows for specialization. So while I'm off squashin' Agave to get Tequila juice, Floyd can take the hay cart across the valley, dodging Injuns', Mad max dudes on motorcycles and revenue agents, whom I have no doubt, would survive the atomization of this entire planet. All so I can have some fuggin' salt on my spaghetti.
As far as the hat goes, I figure a big 10 gallon one would be a good place to keep my lunch. Besides, we're talking post Apocalypse. People with cowboy hats will be looked upon as natural civic leaders. Therefore, I may wear several right on top of each other. After a few hunting seasons I will most likely switch over to a war bonnet made of eagle feathers, maybe one of those buffalo horn dealies Dustin Hoffman wore in Little Big Man.
And really? No tips on how to capture a Mapquest image?
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I loathe Mapquest. Google maps has a way to provide a link to a satellite image, I think. You could always right click the image, save it to your PC, upload it to a photo sharing site such as Photobucket and post a link from there.
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Mapquest has better resolution for my area. I tried saving the image but it comes up blank. I'll try again. It's a nice area though.
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...
And really? No tips on how to capture a Mapquest image?
You can capture the part of it that's displayed on your screen - by pushing the PrtScr button on your keyboard when what you want to capture is displayed. Then open up mspaint or your preferred program and click edit - paste (or Ctl-V) to dump that capture in there.
Edit it to remove anything you don't eant displayed and save it as a jpeg.
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Just checking to see if this works....
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/140/l_1ea6ebb66ea743c58ead23745e7ed0e9.jpg)
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Excellent, or as the kids say...groovy.
So, Casa De Burr, AKA Black Oaks, has trees, water, barn, coop, open space and room for a bowling alley. Neighbors already have pigs and horses, so I won't stand out for having other animals.
To the right of the property is 4 acres possibly for sale and across the dirt road is another 3 definitely for sale. To my left are hills full of tasty critters and across the valley is the salt mine. I'll go get some books on self sufficiency and once we get out of escrow at the end of the month we'll have the general contractor and the plumber come over to bring everything up to code. Once all that's done we'll start setting up the alternative power plant, smokehouse, solarium, wood oven and whatever else I'll conceivably need to entertain Frank Solich on his buggy whip tour across post Apocalyptic America.
I'll have all my Umpa Lumpas lined up for inspection
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Just checking to see if this works....
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/140/l_1ea6ebb66ea743c58ead23745e7ed0e9.jpg)
Beautiful!!
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We need a new category for this thread, I think.
Anyways, did anybody watch Apocalypse Man?? What are y'all's thoughts??
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It is an epic thread. We've pretty much tried to cover every conceivable scenario that might be of interest to the potential survival of whatever apocalyptic scenario Floyd has planned for Joe and Jane American. Everything from locating real estate, animal husbandry and apiary pursuits to proper etiquette concerning hats, or hatiquette, as it were.
I figure it will come down to cooking oil, which I'll use olives and lard for, and grain. I can grow taters and yams, herbs and fruit trees, raise some chickens, but that's about it. The agave won't need much water or care but where I live isn't ideal for grain or rice production. Once again Mr.E will be spending more quality time in the hammock as the denizens of Galts Gulch barter black powder and hides for wheat.
But if someone can figure a better use for the above piece of land, knock yourselves out.
On Edit: If only Floyd had asked for more recipes we would still be in the all things edible forum instead of down here in the slightly creepy Armageddon and Survivalism forum. It's just as well I suppose, I wasn't looking forward to reading the 87 different ways to cook grubs over an open dung pattie fire.
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But if someone can figure a better use for the above piece of land, knock yourselves out.
When I said mideival times, I meant eventually. Once the economy collapses we might become a 3rd world country, but that will send shockwaves around the world. Africa will depopulate rather quickly as nobody sends them any food aid. The technological level of man is likely to drop for a while and wars will erupt for natural resources. Will the US still be able to do much if China takes the Spratley Islands? Hong Kong? Heck, maybe even most of Asia?
The cities will erupt in riots and starvation, the useless government will collapse. This is when TSHTF for real. It will be all out hand to hand combat in the cities and even the suburbs for a bag of chips. It won't be long before mass exodus from the cities and metro areas begin, this is when you guys have to step up and whack a bunch of baddies. Maybe even hiring some of the smarter and more polite ones as sentry guards, farm workers and Umpa Lumpas.
Over a few generations the country and the world will drop from the old west to even more primitive levels. Eventually we may reach the mideival times or even the Roman Empire type of technology level. The knowledge lost will be incalcuble.
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and now we have our own section to play in!
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Perhaps chivalry may make a comeback?? I don't see us digressing much more than the old west era. If anything, I see the US ripe for a take over by some other country, probably China. Who can say, though?? Of course, if we are forced off the grid, it may be due to another country's meddling or influence. Once off the grid, we could be easily overtaken. That will be the time when Americans will have to prove what we're made of.
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Is that what's bothering you? Don't worry my friend, it won't get that bad. Rich people won't let it get that bad. Rich people like creature comforts and tummy tucks and personal watercraft. If America doesn't have at least one orbiting casino by the time Aaron Jr. is old enough to gamble in outer space, and this is after the great American meltdown, then I'd be pretty fuggin' depressed.
Did the world slip into permanent chaos as a result of the depression and two world wars? No, we went on to litter the Moon and invent adult book stores and deep fried snickers bars.
But I'll play along.
It's 2020. 4 years after President Chelsea Clinton failed to protect America from the disaster that befell the planet after it passed through the tail of a dirty comet. No mo' electricity grid and essential services have gone to pot.
But I'm chillin' down in Black Oaks because my alternative power and gardening skills keep me fat and happy. I got's a salt lick near by and plenty of game to shoot. Eventually me and the rest of the survivors will get bored and build a barn to have a dance in and society will take off from there.
I just cant accept the other premise for this scenario because it always ends up looking like the ending of The Omega Man.
But just thinking about all the herbs and junk I'll need to make pancakes, bacon and O.J. on a daily basis really makes me lean towards employing the few straggling survivors that made it out of Fohinex, up the 17, past the Black canyon shooting range, off the 17 to Dewey, Prescott Valley, Prescott and out to my place, as Umpa Lumpas.
I just won't have the time to clean the pool if I have to make candles out of bees wax and grind my own pepper corns.
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AB, I dunno. Just because a group may be wealthy doesn't mean they can prevent or survive the onslaught of a deadly disease, an asteroid hit or whatever else may come. Sure, they like their "toys" and fanciful life. IMO, it's that fanciful life that will get them killed. What WILL they do when money, gold, diamonds, etc have little or no value?? I can just see Paris Hilton trying to live off of the land. Hell, she couldn't hardly do any physical labor on her one show. I laughed my ass off at that spoiled little wench. (Her good looks MIGHT help her, but even then, a burden is a burden)
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I guess I was too flippant. What I meant was that people will be hard pressed to do without toilet paper and unnecessary junk like that forever. Peoples innate drive to better themselves and their situation will keep civilization up and running. It was one of the premises for the founding of this wicked awesome nation.
People who have real wealth, bullets, demonstrable skills, or just plain moxie will always be able to get other people to do stuff for them after any Apocalypse, thus creating some leisure time for themselves, and if all goes well after a few years, a leisure class as well.
And I'd pick Rome over the medieval period any day. Those dudes knew how to make the chariots run on schedule.
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And I'd pick Rome over the medieval period any day. Those dudes knew how to make the chariots run on schedule.
Those Roman Centurions had some style points too. lol.
A strong castle on a steep hill would be nice in the aftermath.
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I'm pretty sure that last phrase was found on some ancient papyrus when the archeologists first dug out Masada.
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I'm pretty sure that last phrase was found on some ancient papyrus when the archeologists first dug out Masada.
lol.
Thats true too.
Btw, did you forget about Liberty Fiction?, its seems to be a little vacant lately.
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I'm pretty sure that last phrase was found on some ancient papyrus when the archeologists first dug out Masada.
Hey! I've been to Masada! Sorry, had to throw that out there. How many times can you use THAT in conversation. :-)
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Hopefully quite often, as long as you can steer the conversation towards the 10th Legion, the Sicarii rebels or Lucius Flavius Silva. Once your audience is hooked, then you can slowly reveal the horrific tale of bloody siege and mass suicide that the Sicariis' underwent.
And no Floyd, I haven't forgotten to keep you updated on my ongoing "unsanctioned" Polo matches. I have been somewhat distracted by this thread and a website that I have apparently inherited. EvilConservatives.org (http://evilconservatives.org/forums/portal.php) A website you will note, that is sadly lacking in Floyds membership.
But it's not all about mass suicide and obscure websites. We gots us a survival situation to deal with over here...one which I'll attend to shortly as I hear Aaron Jr. waking up.
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And no Floyd, I haven't forgotten to keep you updated on my ongoing "unsanctioned" Polo matches. I have been somewhat distracted by this thread and a website that I have apparently inherited. EvilConservatives.org (http://evilconservatives.org/forums/portal.php) A website you will note, that is sadly lacking in Floyds membership.
I am now a member
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Interesting read...if this were to ever happen, I would hope my parents were still alive.
They grew up living off the land, with chicken, goats, grains, and just about every vegetable that would grow beneath the sicilian sun. When I visited, the streets were lined with sun dried tomatoes.
My parents canned everything from tomato sauce to eggplant, artichokes to orange marmalade.
My father still grows his vegetable garden and fruit trees...unfortunately, they never passed this knowledge on to me. Maybe it's time I spend some time with them to learn..One never knows when this knowledge will come in handy.
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Interesting read...if this were to ever happen, I would hope my parents were still alive.
They grew up living off the land, with chicken, goats, grains, and just about every vegetable that would grow beneath the sicilian sun. When I visited, the streets were lined with sun dried tomatoes.
My parents canned everything from tomato sauce to eggplant, artichokes to orange marmalade.
My father still grows his vegetable garden and fruit trees...unfortunately, they never passed this knowledge on to me. Maybe it's time I spend some time with them to learn..One never knows when this knowledge will come in handy.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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I`m curious about something and didn`t read through every page here but if this is truly off the grid you have to remember that electricity/gasoline won`t be available.
Not only will you have to grow crops for your own consumption and animals but they will have to be such as can easily save seeds from to plant another year.
You don`t call up a seed company and order them.
If you want animals you obviously need 2 for that to replenish itself.
Keep in mind all male farm animals are nasty and ornery with a male bovine of any breed being one of the most dangerous animals in the country.
They will kill you for no other reason except you are there.
I would opt for potatoes to grow as any that are not consumed will sprout from the eyes and can be replanted.
Squash and pumpkins the same.
Corn will provide fodder for animals to eat as well as human consumption plus ears can be dried to replant.
For animals chickens will be a natural and can eat the corn.
Pigs will eat almost anything so spoiled tomatoes and other vegetables can be used for food.
They will farrow yearly with 4-8 piglets/litter so they reproduce well.
A note from past experience in real life...if you move your hog yard around it is quite likely that you will have tomatoes and other vegetables fit for transplanting growing in the previous years hog yard.
On that note pig and chicken manure are high in nitrogen and will make a good compost for fertilizer.
Two cows would consume quite a bit of feed and need large quantities of water daily.
Only one calf will be produced in a year and if something happened to it the cycle is thrown off.
It takes 13 months for a calf to mature to breed if it is a heifer and then 9 months gestation.
Too much of a gamble to rely on for a sustaining food source.
Just a few thoughts...grew up on a dairy farm so am familiar with the process.
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I`m curious about something and didn`t read through every page here but if this is truly off the grid you have to remember that electricity/gasoline won`t be available.
Not only will you have to grow crops for your own consumption and animals but they will have to be such as can easily save seeds from to plant another year.
You don`t call up a seed company and order them.
If you want animals you obviously need 2 for that to replenish itself.
Keep in mind all male farm animals are nasty and ornery with a male bovine of any breed being one of the most dangerous animals in the country.
They will kill you for no other reason except you are there.
I would opt for potatoes to grow as any that are not consumed will sprout from the eyes and can be replanted.
Squash and pumpkins the same.
Corn will provide fodder for animals to eat as well as human consumption plus ears can be dried to replant.
For animals chickens will be a natural and can eat the corn.
Pigs will eat almost anything so spoiled tomatoes and other vegetables can be used for food.
They will farrow yearly with 4-8 piglets/litter so they reproduce well.
A note from past experience in real life...if you move your hog yard around it is quite likely that you will have tomatoes and other vegetables fit for transplanting growing in the previous years hog yard.
On that note pig and chicken manure are high in nitrogen and will make a good compost for fertilizer.
Two cows would consume quite a bit of feed and need large quantities of water daily.
Only one calf will be produced in a year and if something happened to it the cycle is thrown off.
It takes 13 months for a calf to mature to breed if it is a heifer and then 9 months gestation.
Too much of a gamble to rely on for a sustaining food source.
Just a few thoughts...grew up on a dairy farm so am familiar with the process.
I am thinking about the Irish Potato Famine. What went wrong there, storeys of whole family's starving to death. May not hurt to read as much as possible about that tragedy.
Russia and the Famine they had 100 years ago, why, how did it start.
We have to look backward in time to learn the lessons of what to avoid.
As much as the climate changes year to year, the new crop diseases and the bug problem farmers will have a problem planting crops and protecting them with all organic growing.
Critter control -----In a box my mom found these weird whale bone thingamajigs that had been carved and were about 3 inches long. The contraption was so old had yellowed through the ages to look like the teeth of an old man that smokes every day.
We were naturally very curious as the item was too big to be used as earrings. Mom went on the hunt and found out what this item was used for.
Finally after a few months we found out we had an 18 century flee catcher. Seems that men and woman would place a few drops of blood inside and the flees on their body's would run into the device for supper.
These absolutely beautiful carved flee catchers were hung from belts and both sexes placed them in their hats.---------Strange that these catchers we had had Asian carvings on them---someone in the family had brought them home on a sailing ship, I have never seen anything like them and the pair now live at the Peabody Museum in Mass.
I have an old bright red well pump I bought for the garden, but I know how to use one and if I needed water from a well all I would need is a pipe attached and one cup of water to prime the sucker and all the water one needs.
Keep the old gray cells working, first know your capabilities what can you actually do, what is laying about the house that could be put to some valuable use-----like cast iron cook ware.
Just remember the food source if animal, it has to be fed and cared for. With the snow up to our Butts if we have chickens and nothing to feed them------
How does one make bread withour Yeast or fat.?
Refrigeration is a huge problem, this is a very very new invention----Smoking, jerking, salting and other forms of perserving food, can you do any of the above .?
Light on the inside of whereever you live, where is that coming from.?
You can have 40 acres of wheat but with no knowledge into how to turn it into flour what now.?
I hate to say this but from reading old medical texts, the big killer was back then WORMS. Oh Yuck. Kids today still get pin Worms's memory here ----Woman in the late 1900 actually swallowed tape worm eggs for weight control.
Read everything you can about the things that bedeviled humans in the past because these things will be there to make you miserable in what ever age you are in.
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The Irish Potato Famine was caused by England. England controlled Ireland at the time, it made their laws for them. They soon had the island dependant on a single type of potato, bad idea. Their response with the work houses and stuff was classic government stupidity, ostensibly helping people by impoverishing them further. Or at least that is how I remember it.
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I`m curious about something and didn`t read through every page here but if this is truly off the grid you have to remember that electricity/gasoline won`t be available.
Not only will you have to grow crops for your own consumption and animals but they will have to be such as can easily save seeds from to plant another year.
You don`t call up a seed company and order them.
If you want animals you obviously need 2 for that to replenish itself.
Keep in mind all male farm animals are nasty and ornery with a male bovine of any breed being one of the most dangerous animals in the country.
They will kill you for no other reason except you are there.
I would opt for potatoes to grow as any that are not consumed will sprout from the eyes and can be replanted.
Squash and pumpkins the same.
Corn will provide fodder for animals to eat as well as human consumption plus ears can be dried to replant.
For animals chickens will be a natural and can eat the corn.
Pigs will eat almost anything so spoiled tomatoes and other vegetables can be used for food.
They will farrow yearly with 4-8 piglets/litter so they reproduce well.
A note from past experience in real life...if you move your hog yard around it is quite likely that you will have tomatoes and other vegetables fit for transplanting growing in the previous years hog yard.
On that note pig and chicken manure are high in nitrogen and will make a good compost for fertilizer.
Two cows would consume quite a bit of feed and need large quantities of water daily.
Only one calf will be produced in a year and if something happened to it the cycle is thrown off.
It takes 13 months for a calf to mature to breed if it is a heifer and then 9 months gestation.
Too much of a gamble to rely on for a sustaining food source.
Just a few thoughts...grew up on a dairy farm so am familiar with the process.
This is the sort of response I was hoping for in here.
Most survivalist type scenarios are just that - survival.
I'm more focused in long term living without having the comforts of civilization as readily available.
Which is why I initially suggested pigs , goats and chickens as suitable stock for a small family or group oriented situation.
They're far less trouble than beef or dairy cattle to maintain, replenish and harvest.
I know a couple of people that grow them - every year the chicken run and the pig pen are relocated and the well fertilized ground is then great for growing all manner of things.
Life without the comforts and convenience of such things as electricity, veterinary services and agricultural supplies is possible but my grasp of it is mostly theoretical.
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Ever hear of grass fed cattle?? Given enough grassland/ field, feeding a couple or three head of cattle wouldn't be all that tough. Of course, trying to acquire cattle AFTER TSHTF, they will be costly and will take a while to grow/ propagate. Cattle theft will be rampant, too. I would try to raise as many different feed animals as I could. I don't like pigs because they really stink. Feral hogs, OTOH, are plenty available in my neck of the woods. Being placed in a survival situation, I'd disregard any game laws and property rights, well, that would be on a case by case basis.
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Ever hear of grass fed cattle?? Given enough grassland/ field, feeding a couple or three head of cattle wouldn't be all that tough. Of course, trying to acquire cattle AFTER TSHTF, they will be costly and will take a while to grow/ propagate. Cattle theft will be rampant, too. I would try to raise as many different feed animals as I could. I don't like pigs because they really stink. Feral hogs, OTOH, are plenty available in my neck of the woods. Being placed in a survival situation, I'd disregard any game laws and property rights, well, that would be on a case by case basis.
Same here as far as whitetail deer.
I should have noted as you did acquiring the first years worth of seeds and the initial livestock take sort of an invisible leap of faith assuming that this was a sudden and out of the blue scenario.
I didn`t address the obvious issues there.
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MORMONS!
We've completely forgotten about the demonstrated masters of survivin' in America. Once you join the clip on tie set set you get "counseled" to stock up a years supply of food. What's a Brigham Young graduate to do? These guys got ya' covered. Everything. (http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/foodpak1.aspx) Yup. Everything. Food, oil, goop to keep your gasoline from gunking up, waffle irons, apple presses....and even sweetener made from Agave. Damn I'm good.
Just save up for a few months and buy a years worth of food. We'll pick late October for the meltdown date. (It helps if we're all on the same page for something like this.)
And yes, I know people have linked to other food places, but these guys have everything. Except tobacco and we done got's a link for that already.
So I may end up even fatter after the Apocalypse. Hell, I wont even have to take off the bathrobe and dirty slippers. Ever.
I wonder if Frank Solich has ever taken a buggy whip ride past the Pleasant Hill Grain Company processing plant. I'm betting it's 30 story's of soot stained windows under a perpetual cloud of smoke.
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Mormons early on. (Maybe in another forum, I forget) Either way, that's MY goal. A years worth of stockpiles of necessities. Some I can live without, like TP, but foodstuff, juices, coffee, and basic survival needs would be nice.
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Mormons early on. (Maybe in another forum, I forget) Either way, that's MY goal. A years worth of stockpiles of necessities. Some I can live without, like TP, but foodstuff, juices, coffee, and basic survival needs would be nice.
I posted a link to a place selling "a years worth of food" based on a 3000 calorie diet, this said it did not include 4 gallons of cooking oil. This place sells dry beans like pinto's by bags of 25 to 100 pounds. Things you would never think of buying in bulk. Beef bullion, kind of like the stuff in the packets of Ramen Noodles. Good for stew too. They have 50 lb bags. They have everything from dried margarine to instant potato flakes. If someone could stock up this stuff in an underground survival bunker they would have time to grow their own food.
50 lb package of iodized salt. That might come in handy. Yeast?
https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/
Of course shipping would be expensive. heh. The front page doesn't look like much but the site is a doozy if your looking for things you won't have after TSHTF.
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A lot of that bulk stuff already gets used by restaurants (Sysco is a big bulk seller/distributor). Hell, I'd buy some of that stuff just for convenience. A 25-pound bag of pancake mix? Count me in!
:lmao:
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I posted a link to a place selling "a years worth of food" based on a 3000 calorie diet, this said it did not include 4 gallons of cooking oil. This place sells dry beans like pinto's by bags of 25 to 100 pounds. Things you would never think of buying in bulk. Beef bullion, kind of like the stuff in the packets of Ramen Noodles. Good for stew too. They have 50 lb bags. They have everything from dried margarine to instant potato flakes. If someone could stock up this stuff in an underground survival bunker they would have time to grow their own food.
50 lb package of iodized salt. That might come in handy. Yeast?
https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/
Of course shipping would be expensive. heh. The front page doesn't look like much but the site is a doozy if your looking for things you won't have after TSHTF.
They have most of that stuff at Sam's Club or COSTCO. I keep beef & chicken base on hand. It tastes better than bullion and cooks better. It also stores easily. Yeast is finicky. There is one kind that stores well and lasts long. Most of it doesn't because yeast is a live bacteria. Dried noodles would be a good thing to store, mainly spaghetti noodles as the rest may take up too much room. Potato flakes are good storage items.
My next project is to dehydrate some beef and then vacuum seal it. I may pursue other meats, too.
Chris, I'd opt for a baking mix because pancake mix is less adaptable. BUT, that, too, will go "bad" after too long a time (the ingredients will just not work right)
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Where ver you get it, it would come in handy in a bad situation