Why vote GOP back in?

[formerlurker]

The Department of Education needs to be disbanded.  PERIOD.

That will never ever ever ever ever ever happen.   Ever.  Period.  

ETA:  I don't care if you had a supermajority of ultra-conservatives, it will never happen.   

[rich_t]

That's why I'm more interested in supporting a voting bloc than a party. Any political strategy has to account for the fact that a large portion of the voting public is comprised of headline skimmers.

The tea parties created headlines and--despite the MSM's best efforts--portraying them as racist hicks did not blunt their impact.

Not that I'm not sympathetic to your notion of voting conservative only. Palin is the only thing that got me out of the house in 2008 and that was only because I was salivating at the prospect of voting for her in 2016. I took a lot of heat on this very forum for railing against McCain and none of his subsequent behavior has done nothing to alter my opinion of him. At least with Obama the enemy is more readily recognizable (no, lurking libs, it isn't his swarthy skin). With McCain the GOP would be dragged into healthcare reform and crap-n-trade.

Excellent point.

[Carl]

Carl,

You have to start thinking more long term.  Yes, 2010 is critical as far as congress goes.  But then what?  2012 right?

What about 10 years from now?  Or 20?  Ya have to start somewhere and continuing to vote for a party that claims to be conservative yet doesn't comport themselves as such is NOT a long term answer.

If the GOP expects to remain a viable entity it needs to start living up to what it claims to be...  C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-V-E.

Otherwise it needs to stop calling itself or even attempting to call itself a conservative group.

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.



As long as folks cotninue to focus on merely the next election, the problems will only continue to remain problems.

I just want to push the GOP to a more conservative position and let the party voters come along.
To reinvent the wheel at this point seems to be a desperate and too long term a task given what we face with o and the libs in power.
I will take any realistic possibility of stopping that in the next year..the next year not 10 or 20 from now as if we don`t I believe that time frame wont matter.
My opinion and admit that and don`t adhere to over the top histrionics but do truly believe we are at that point so am willing to accept whatever it takes to stop it.

Think on it,did anyone think Newt could have led the way to what happened in 1994?
I didn`t...so what is to say that in 2010 with the reality of what has been pushed on the country it can`t again and is hope for that less realistic then one of a third party insurgency. (I don`t mean that word as an emotional trigger either,just can`t think of a better one right now).

[Carl]

Well, the only starting point I can think of is to start electing conservatives to the local school boards.  The next step, which I don't see happening without a major fight is getting the FED out of the public education arena.

The Department of Education needs to be disbanded.  PERIOD.

That would take a vast majority in Congress and again if one can show how that is ever remotely possible with an upstart third party I will listen and join up..
Hell,just as the dems have rebellious in their party so does the GOP.
Voting them out for true conservatives that would maintain a majority by party because that is how it works would be great.
It is doubtful that would happen so the third party stuff goes nowhere either for the same reasons.

It may make a person feel good but accomplishes nothing in reality.

[rich_t]

Doing it in 1980 to give Reagan a Senate majority and a working majority wasn`t a bad thing.
It sure helped check Clinton in 1994 after he lurched to the left once President.

Look at history as it was.

I try to look at history as it was.  What better way to learn what mistakes not to repeat?

But one can't live in the past.  One must look to the future and work to make it a better place than the past or present.

Continuing to vote for the same party candidates just cuz they have the right "letter" behind their name ain't gonna fix squat.

Nor is continuing to vote for the lesser of two evils in perpetuity.  At some point one must start taking a longer view to try to implement the changes they desire.  It can't always be "the next election".

If you opt to vote for a person because you feel they honestly will represent your views then fine, go for it.

But if the only reason you vote for them is because you think they are or will be less harmful, but harmfull none the less....

Well, you do the math.

[rich_t]

Start making some calls then to  your local reps.  It has to start somewhere.

Jesus Christ...  You DO like to make assumptions don't you?  You seem to be assuming that I don't. 

I DO call them.

I DO write them.

I DO e-mail them.

I DO fax them.

Just as I do with my Congressperson and Senators at the state and federal level.

I haven't taken a baseball bat to one yet, but I'm keeping that option on the table.   

[rich_t]

That will never ever ever ever ever ever happen.   Ever.  Period.  

ETA:  I don't care if you had a supermajority of ultra-conservatives, it will never happen.   

I know that.  But it needs to happen.

[Carl]

I try to look at history as it was.  What better way to learn what mistakes not to repeat?

But one can't live in the past.  One must look to the future and work to make it a better place than the past or present.

Continuing to vote for the same party candidates just cuz they have the right "letter" behind their name ain't gonna fix squat.

Nor is continuing to vote for the lesser of two evils in perpetuity.  At some point one must start taking a longer view to try to implement the changes they desire.  It can't always be "the next election".

If you opt to vote for a person because you feel they honestly will represent your views then fine, go for it.

But if the only reason you vote for them is because you think they are or will be less harmful, but harmfull none the less....

Well, you do the math.

I have the perspective of living for now in NY where the best (R) I can hope for would be a dem in a lot of places.
Will that ever change in this state?
Doubtful but if one thinks it can then please tell me how.
Not being sarcastic but realistic.

So it goes with national politics,if one can tell me how the GOP is replaced with a more conservative third or alternative party then I am all ears.
Otherwise it really is all just talk amongst ourselves with a certain amount of wishing.

I guess I am sorry that is the case but tell me where it isn`t and how we stop the undoing of our country in the meantime.
Anyone here think Social Security is a great system and valuable?
If not tell me how we undo it now?

I think it is a horrible thing but to suggest it be halted just because will get me the ire of conservatives who also think the same as long as they get the money paid in back.
Bottom line is that until it reaches a critical mass it won`t be touched.
That is the stuff they are building into the system today,right now.

It scares me and I am not interested in idealistic yearnings right now,hate me for that I guess but am not.
I want it confronted and stopped and will support the most viable and realistic means to do that even if I am disappointed.
The end result is the same as a guaranteed failure.

[Carl]

I know that.  But it needs to happen.

Have to chuckle at that statement as it is most likely correct but why then do you argue for things that are also not going to happen...a third party pushing the GOP to the side?

[rich_t]

I just want to push the GOP to a more conservative position and let the party voters come along.
To reinvent the wheel at this point seems to be a desperate and too long term a task given what we face with o and the libs in power.
I will take any realistic possibility of stopping that in the next year..the next year not 10 or 20 from now as if we don`t I believe that time frame wont matter.
My opinion and admit that and don`t adhere to over the top histrionics but do truly believe we are at that point so am willing to accept whatever it takes to stop it.

Think on it,did anyone think Newt could have led the way to what happened in 1994?
I didn`t...so what is to say that in 2010 with the reality of what has been pushed on the country it can`t again and is hope for that less realistic then one of a third party insurgency. (I don`t mean that word as an emotional trigger either,just can`t think of a better one right now).

If you think you have a way to make that happen let me know.  I'll be right there with you.  But you seem to have a LOT more faith in the Republican party than I do.

All I have to do is look at their history over the last 20+ years.  Doing so doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about them suddenly changing their tune.

[Carl]

I also need to say it is enjoyable to engage in a courteous and thoughtful discussion Rich.
We may not agree completely but is nice to talk it out.

[Carl]

If you think you have a way to make that happen let me know.  I'll be right there with you.  But you seem to have a LOT more faith in the Republican party than I do.

All I have to do is look at their history over the last 20+ years.  Doing so doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about them suddenly changing their tune.

Yeah I know but still think it is the most practical option giving what we face like it or not.

Honest though and hypothetical but even supposing a third party could rise up,with the system we have without term limits do you think they would not turn to the power of the treasury to use for reelection?

[rich_t]

Have to chuckle at that statement as it is most likely correct but why then do you argue for things that are also not going to happen...a third party pushing the GOP to the side?

If you keep making comments like that then I am going to start questioning your cognitive reasoning skills.   

I never once stated nor implied that I thought a 3rd party would push the GOP aside.

Please point out what post of mine you misinterpreted to mean that.

I will admit that I can on occassion be less clear than I intended on these threads.

I fully expect that the GOP will be around for a long time yet to come.  It will merely be the party of lib-lite instead of conservative if things continue as they have been the past decade or so.

That whole "big tent" thing is really working out well for them.  They have managed to lose the WH and both houses of congress.

[rich_t]

I also need to say it is enjoyable to engage in a courteous and thoughtful discussion Rich.
We may not agree completely but is nice to talk it out.

Hey... If we all agreed about everything this board would get boring real quick.

But I feel compelled to point out that bkg was no less courteous than I have been IMO.

[Carl]

Hey... If we all agreed about everything this board would get boring real quick.

But I feel compelled to point out that bkg was no less courteous than I have been IMO.

I would disagree a bit on that and the wording of posts I believe proves me out on that one..at least until called on it.
So be it and not going to take that any farther.

[Carl]

If you keep making comments like that then I am going to start questioning your cognitive reasoning skills.  

I never once stated nor implied that I thought a 3rd party would push the GOP aside.

Please point out what post of mine you misinterpreted to mean that.

I will admit that I can on occassion be less clear than I intended on these threads.

I fully expect that the GOP will be around for a long time yet to come.  It will merely be the party of lib-lite instead of conservative if things continue as they have been the past decade or so.

That whole "big tent" thing is really working out well for them.  They have managed to lose the WH and both houses of congress.

Okay,so if you don`t then what is the discussion here... you don`t like where the GOP has been for the last few years and neither do I.
What is the alternative or is there one.
We can say we will never vote again for another Republican candidate unless he/she agrees ? percentage with me but what is the reality of what one will do?

[rich_t]

Okay,so if you don`t then what is the discussion here... you don`t like where the GOP has been for the last few years and neither do I.
What is the alternative or is there one.
We can say we will never vote again for another Republican candidate unless he/she agrees ? percentage with me but what is the reality of what one will do?

You thought there was a point to this discussion?

And here I thought you and I were merely conversing.

The point, if there is one, is the same point that bkg brought up in the OP.

IMO that point is, why vote for the GOP if they are merely the lessor of two evils.

Is not voting for the lessor of two evils still voting for evil?

Is it worth it to merely slow down the destruction of the republic, knowing full well that the destruction will happen anyway?

Is not a death of a thousand slow cuts still death at the end of the day?

Can you convince me that the GOP will rise to the task and save the day?

What will they do differently if elected in 2010 and 2012 than they have in the past?

[Carl]

You thought there was a point to this discussion?

And here I thought you and I were merely conversing.

The point, if there is one, is the same point that bkg brought up in the OP.

IMO that point is, why vote for the GOP if they are merely the lessor of two evils.

Is not voting for the lessor of two evils still voting for evil?

Is it worth it to merely slow down the destruction of the republic, knowing full well that the destruction will happen anyway?

Is not a death of a thousand slow cuts still death at the end of the day?

Can you convince me that the GOP will rise to the task and save the day?

What will they do differently if elected in 2010 and 2012 than they have in the past?

What is the alternative in 2010...2012?
Is there a realistic answer to that which will stop the obamanation we are under?

[rich_t]

What is the alternative in 2010...2012?
Is there a realistic answer to that which will stop the obamanation we are under?

Do you honestly think the 2010 and 2012 elections will have any long term effect?

I've already shared my thoughts on the whole "next election" thing.

You need to start thinking more long term.

I've already agreed with you that 2010 is an important election as a stop gap.  But what then?  

I look at long term.  I am just as concerned about 20 years from now as I am next year.

Why?

Cuz this whole mindset of focusing merely on the next election is what is wrong with our whole current political situation.

I worry and focus on the shit my grandkids will be facing as well as what me and my adult kids are facing today.

So what is your plan beyond 2010 and 2012?

I've asked more than once and you have yet to provide much of a response.

How is your GOP of the future going to fix the issues we as a country are facing?

[rich_t]

In the long run, we are doomed.

"The America of today is a laboratory example if what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout history.  A perfect democracy, a 'warm body' democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.  It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restaint of citizens... which is opposed by the folly and lack of  self-restraint of other citizens.  What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each soveriegn citizen will always vote in public interest for the safety and welfare of all.  But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it... which for the majority translates as 'Bread and Circuses'.

Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure.  Democracy often works beautifully at first.  But once the state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state.  For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome."

 

[Carl]

Do you honestly think the 2010 and 2012 elections will have any long term effect?

I've already shared my thoughts on the whole "next election" thing.

You need to start thinking more long term.

I've already agreed with you that 2010 is an important election as a stop gap.  But what then? 

I look at long term.  I am just as concerned about 20 years from now as I am next year.

Why?

Cuz this whole mindset of focusing merely on the next election is what is worng with our whole current political situation.

I worry and focus on the shit my grandkids will be facing as well as what me and my adult kids are facing today.

So what is your plan beyond 2010 and 2012?

I've asked more than once and you have yet to provide much of a response.

How is your GOP of the future going to fix the issues we as a country are facing?

We come from different perspectives as I feel that these next two elections will set the stage for where we are well past our lifetimes..see the above post regarding social security.

I have no idea what may be a political issue in 2020 nor honestly right now do I care as if the tide isn`t turned it may be meaningless.
I am taking it you think what is coming at us can be undone at will some time later and disagree.
Cap and trade will be foisted on us,no doubt an amnesty bill too along with all the "fixes" the health care monstrosity will bring up.
You want to worry about an election 20 years off then fine but I want what is happening now stopped.
Guess that is as clear as I can be about things.

As to your last question the answer is simple it will be as good as the people demand it to be,one does not have any better notion if a "Republican" will be any better then an independent,to suggest otherwise is folly.
I am only addressing what is the most viable and realistic way to achieve anything and have yet to hear a practical assessment of any alternatives that will do the same except for idealogical dreaming.

Tell me how a non Republican challenges a dem and defeats enough to stall them in the House and Senate?
What is the plan,there is just over 11 months to make it happen.
If one is hoping for some realignment of political philosophies 20 years from now then whatever,but it is pointless imo as what we all hate will be institutionalized,hell they are writing into the bill that a future Congress can`t repeal parts of it.

I guess we will have to just go on in our outlooks at this point and believe me I would hope you are the one right in how much time we have to work this stuff out.

[rich_t]

author=Carl link=topic=38216.msg413521#msg413521 date=1261965735]
We come from different perspectives as I feel that these next two elections will set the stage for where we are well past our lifetimes..

I felt the same way in 94.

Now we see where we are after that.

Made a long term difference did it?

[Carl]

I felt the same way in 94.

Now we see where we are after that.

Made a long term difference did it?

It sure the hell stopped a lot of the short term lurches to the left didn`t it?
If you don`t get those then worrying about 20 years down the road is a bit pointless it would seem.
Name me one government program started that was done away with.
When anyone can get back to me.

[Oceander]

I felt the same way in 94.

Now we see where we are after that.

Made a long term difference did it?

It did, considering that the hard left and the Democratic libs didn't manage to get back into power for 15 years.  More to the point, however, is why the results of 1994 finally stopped paying dividends, and that has everything to do with conservatives who assumed, post-1994, that the battle against the left/liberals had finally been won for good and for all time, and who promptly went back to treating politics as a spectator sport, leaving the field wide-open for the left/libs to start seducing every politician they could over to the dark side, with the god-awful consequences we are now facing.

The lesson learned from that is not the defeatism implicit in your remarks, but the more common-sensical notion that "God helps those who help themselves" - in other words all of us, myself included, must get off our butts, get back into the political trenches, and get back into the slow-motion slogging that is day-to-day political combat against the left/liberals.

[Thor]

The problem with BOTH major parties is the fact that they really could GAF about their so-called "constituents" unless those constituents are donating constituents. I have placed several calls to my state congressman, Larry Phillips, and have yet to receive a return call. Emails are just way to easy to dismiss and apparently are, at least here in Texas. I WAS able to speak with one of his assistants, but again, it's easy for them to just shine someone on. At least that's what I've experienced in Texas.

Minnesota was an altogether different experience. Jim Abeler and Mark Olson were my state reps. I had good communications with both of them and I wasn't a contributing constituent.However, my attempts to contact Michelle Bachmann yielded the same results as I've experienced in Texas.  I dunno, it just seems to me that some only seem to be interested in the money/ fame/ positional authority and a very select few, no matter which party are actually interested in looking out for the people.