Primitives want to kick kids out of school

[AprilRazz]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7833251
Average sized bonfire. The dysmenopausal Kansas school teacher is there but no Pammy. Did the chemo not go as planned? Did the cruise ship boy show up and whisk her off? Did her drunk husband finally come to his senses and locked her in the basement? One last trip to do some laundry?

dkf  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 10:24 AM
Original message
Would our school system be better overall if we took the problem kids out of the system?
   
I keep hearing teachers say this is the reason they can't succeed along with students don't want to learn and parents who don't care. Is the only solution that teachers can control to kick out non performers?

I honestly don't get what these complaints are suggesting in terms of solutions. Or is the argument that it is not solvable and they should not be held responsible in any way?

And seriously there is no money as people get cut off from truly critical life and death support so a raise to teach extra hours is not going to happen.

Teaching would be great if it wasn't for those damned kids!

leftofcool  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. No but what would be nice is to have alternative schools
   
in every city. Some already have them and they are great for kids with behavior problems or just kids who don't want to learn via normal chanels/academics. If you have some teenage boys who don't give a rats ass about math, English or history but the love auto mechanics, send them to a school where they can tear down an old car and rebuild it. Just an example of what could be done.

Does pammy know how to retread tires?

leftofcool  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I loved teaching at the alternative school
   
some of the best students I ever had were there. I have also taught the gifted ones but I will take the "C" average, "problem" kid any day of the week.

Well at least you wouldn't have to worry about the fact that the gifted kids are smarter than you.

proud2BlibKansan  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Bullshit
   
If they don't have the time they have no business being a parent in the first place. It is not the school's responsibility to raise your kids.

Oh the irony!
But Bunny's have fangs!

Bunny  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Oh bullshit your own damn self.
   
I would NEVER want someone like you raising my kids, so you can just jump the **** down from that high horse. I do expect you to educate them, however. You ARE being paid to do this, aren't you? If you are unable to perform your job, you have no business doing it and should leave the field and find more suitable work.

No Pammy to the rescue?

[AprilRazz]

FarCenter  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. It would be good to eliminate kindergarten and pre school
   
That way, the kid is old enough to understand that first grade in school is for learning, that school has nothing to do with play and fun and family-like activities, and that the teacher is god and must be obeyed at all times.

slackmaster  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
28. Yes, that's exactly what we used to do with them
   
Several people I know personally are teachers. They cover K-12. Disruptive students present serious challenges to maintaining an effective learning environment.

One of my best friends is a career substitute teacher at the high school level. He told me about a recent experience covering a French language class. One student would not stop talking, while everyone else in class was preparing to take the final exam. My friend suggested that the young man leave the class room and go see his counselor.

The kid responded by calling my friend a "racist" and a "faggot", and threatened him with bodily harm. (The kid either fancies himself a gang member, or really is one.) My friend called for security assistance. Two big bouncers dragged the kid out. He was suspended for three days.

Everyone I know who teaches anything over sixth grade has similar experiences. It's really tragic IMO. Any kid who acted up like that when I was a student would have been summarily expelled and sent to a "reform school". But today schools tolerate repeat offenses, with only token punishment.

...and you have to ask why they get away with it?

notadmblnd  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-03-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. For talking in class? I guess it all about control isn't it?
   
he threw a kid out for talking in class? Suspended him for 3 days? somehow I think you're leaving something out. Why did this sub let the situation escalate to the point of having the child expelled? I would have handled it different, I'm not going to tell you how because I'm sure this sub doesn't want constructive advice, he just wants to control his temporary classroom.

[The Village Idiot]

Liberals do want government raising the kids, thats one of the problems.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Actually I think one of the major issues here is that disruptive students aren't being removed.

The worst parents of the most undisciplined kids act as if they are owed an education. Start punting their little brats to the curb with due notice that Jr. can live out his days as a dishwasher and perhaps they'll start reining in the problem child.

But if the kids can stay in regardless of how disruptive they become then any behavior that does not engender negative consequences becomes repeated.

One of the officers I work for has a wife that is a teacher. It seems the school hides deliquent acts by not reporting or usig creative bookkeeping, i.e. having the parent voluntarily keep Jr. home so the school doesn't have to report a suspension. Enforcement should NOT reflect negatively on adminstration.

[Chris_]

Actually I think one of the major issues here is that disruptive students aren't being removed.

The worst parents of the most undisciplined kids act as if they are owed an education. Start punting their little brats to the curb with due notice that Jr. can live out his days as a dishwasher and perhaps they'll start reining in the problem child.

But if the kids can stay in regardless of how disruptive they become then any behavior that does not engender negative consequences becomes repeated.

One of the officers I work for has a wife that is a teacher. It seems the school hides deliquent acts by not reporting or usig creative bookkeeping, i.e. having the parent voluntarily keep Jr. home so the school doesn't have to report a suspension. Enforcement should NOT reflect negatively on adminstration.

Well......back in my day, there were "Reform Schools" for that purpose.  Essentially they were quasi penal institutions for children that were incapable of integrating into the school system........

Rather than allow them to disrupt the education of others, the miscreants were placed in a cage for the normal school day.....always made sense to me.

doc

[delilahmused]

Well......back in my day, there were "Reform Schools" for that purpose.  Essentially they were quasi penal institutions for children that were incapable of integrating into the school system........

Rather than allow them to disrupt the education of others, the miscreants were placed in a cage for the normal school day.....always made sense to me.

doc

That's why mandatory attendance is such a stupid idea. Kids that don't want to be there make it difficult for those who do. Just because you force them to be there doesn't mean they can force them to learn. Kind of like a senator voting present.

Cindie

[The Village Idiot]

That's why mandatory attendance is such a stupid idea. Kids that don't want to be there make it difficult for those who do. Just because you force them to be there doesn't mean they can force them to learn. Kind of like a senator voting present.

Cindie

or a military draft

[thundley4]

That's why mandatory attendance is such a stupid idea. Kids that don't want to be there make it difficult for those who do. Just because you force them to be there doesn't mean they can force them to learn. Kind of like a senator voting present.

Cindie

The mandatory thing is good, but after so many days of truancy, then the student should be sent to an alternative school where continued absences result in fines to the parents.

[Chris_]

or a military draft

For 3rd graders?

By the time these "students" get to mikitary age, the damage to the schools has been done......they need to be segregated long before that.

Plus, the military isn't a baby sitting service for rotten spoiled childern......

doc

[The Village Idiot]

For 3rd graders?

By the time these "students" get to mikitary age, the damage to the schools has been done......they need to be segregated long before that.

Plus, the military isn't a baby sitting service for rotten spoiled childern......

Nnnnnooo.... lol!!

What Cindie said:

That's why mandatory military service is such a stupid idea. people that don't want to be there make it difficult for those who do. Just because you force them to be there doesn't mean they can force them not to shoot their officers

[Karin]

Bunny's post got deleted!  I think that's pretty unfair.  The primitives squibble squabble all day long, and she can't say her peace?  I applaud her for it, glad we saved it. 

[Vagabond]

The DUmmies have the right idea or the wrong reason.  Public Education should not be another word for free daycare.  If a kid has proven himself to be disruptive, then remove him from the system.  Make the parent's accountable for him.

Of course then the district would lose the federal free ponies for that student.

[AllosaursRus]

Actually I think one of the major issues here is that disruptive students aren't being removed.

The worst parents of the most undisciplined kids act as if they are owed an education. Start punting their little brats to the curb with due notice that Jr. can live out his days as a dishwasher and perhaps they'll start reining in the problem child.

But if the kids can stay in regardless of how disruptive they become then any behavior that does not engender negative consequences becomes repeated.

One of the officers I work for has a wife that is a teacher. It seems the school hides deliquent acts by not reporting or usig creative bookkeeping, i.e. having the parent voluntarily keep Jr. home so the school doesn't have to report a suspension. Enforcement should NOT reflect negatively on adminstration.

Didn't have that prob when I went to schrool! You got your ass busted with a big frikkin' paddle, then they called Dad! And it didn't matter what sex ya were either!

When you got home, you already couldn't sit down and "Pops" made sure you were going to sleep on your side or your stomach for the next few nights!

Ya only ****ed up about twice! Anything more than that and you qualified for the "Short Bus", 'cause you surely had to be a damned idiot! I saw the toughest guys in schrool start whimperin' way before we made it to the Vice Principal's office! After all, that's who took care of your stupid ass!

In my opinion, this is EXACTLY what is wrong with today's youth! Kick their damned ass when they're young! You'd really be surprised how easy they are to control after a good ass whuppin'!!!!!!!

You want control back? Teach them there are consequences for their actions when they're still young enough you can beat the hell out of 'em!

Liberalism has caused us to lose control of the little delinquents!

[thundley4]

You want control back? Teach them there are consequences for their actions when they're still young enough you can beat the hell out of 'em!

Liberalism has caused us to lose control of the little delinquents!

Doesn't it go back to Dr. Spock and his namby-pamby way of giving kids "time-outs", or am I confusing him with someone else?   Too many parents try to be friends first and parents second to their kids.

[franksolich]

I will say this is something that has bothered me, personally, for a very long time.

And yes, the Democrats, liberals, and primitives are to blame for it.

It used to be--this was before my time--that certain students, in grade school and in high school, were subtlely directed into the manual trades; generally the sorts of students who weren't interested in academics.

And incidentally, those sorts of students who today would be classified as the "trouble-makers" in school.  It was a win-win situation; teachers dealt with students who were interested in learning, and students not into academics were steered into useful careers and trades.

But then came along the Great Liberal Enlightenment.

All people are created equal in talents, skills, and tastes.

I myself was caught up in this morass; despite being deaf, I was just as good as hearing people.  I was just like everybody else (at least just like my hearing peers.)

It was a very tough row to hoe, myself ostensibly being just as talented, skilled, and with the same tastes, as everybody else.

I hated school with an undying passion, although I was never a "disciplinary problem," having inherited the quiet stoic fortitude of my maternal ancestress.

I am worth just as much to God, as any other individual, and created equal in enjoyment of rights and liberties.....but I was, and am, not like "everybody else" in skills, talents, and tastes.

In earlier eras, my kind would have been "shunted off" into the manual trades--creating a win-win situation for both the individual, being a productive member of society, and society itself, less one more misfit.

But no.....I "had" to be an "intellectual," a member of the cerebral class.

Only God knows for sure, but I suspect my life would have been a great deal more fulfillling, a great deal less convulsive, if I had been trained as a wheelwright or blacksmith or press operator.  And perhaps much more affluent.

I dunno, but it's been a bitch, trying to conform with Democrats', liberals', and primitives' notions of what I should be, as compared with what I was born best fitted to be.

[zeitgeist]

Doesn't it go back to Dr. Spock and his namby-pamby way of giving kids "time-outs", or am I confusing him with someone else?   Too many parents try to be friends first and parents second to their kids.

I have very little regard for what goes on in education today; however,  my great aunt taught in New Jersey her entire career, retired when she was knifed outside her classroom (in the early seventies) by a student.  I guess there will always be problems.  It seems most schools today are closer to the 'reform school' someone mentioned up post.  Armed guards, security cameras, cypher locks and on it goes.    Alternative schools?  I am not a big fan of that route either.  Answers?  Not as many as there are questions.

[AllosaursRus]

I will say this is something that has bothered me, personally, for a very long time.

And yes, the Democrats, liberals, and primitives are to blame for it.

It used to be--this was before my time--that certain students, in grade school and in high school, were subtlely directed into the manual trades; generally the sorts of students who weren't interested in academics.

And incidentally, those sorts of students who today would be classified as the "trouble-makers" in school.  It was a win-win situation; teachers dealt with students who were interested in learning, and students not into academics were steered into useful careers and trades.

But then came along the Great Liberal Enlightenment.

All people are created equal in talents, skills, and tastes.

I myself was caught up in this morass; despite being deaf, I was just as good as hearing people.  I was just like everybody else (at least just like my hearing peers.)

It was a very tough row to hoe, myself ostensibly being just as talented, skilled, and with the same tastes, as everybody else.

I hated school with an undying passion, although I was never a "disciplinary problem," having inherited the quiet stoic fortitude of my maternal ancestress.

I am worth just as much to God, as any other individual, and created equal in enjoyment of rights and liberties.....but I was, and am, not like "everybody else" in skills, talents, and tastes.

In earlier eras, my kind would have been "shunted off" into the manual trades--creating a win-win situation for both the individual, being a productive member of society, and society itself, less one more misfit.

But no.....I "had" to be an "intellectual," a member of the cerebral class.

Only God knows for sure, but I suspect my life would have been a great deal more fulfillling, a great deal less convulsive, if I had been trained as a wheelwright or blacksmith or press operator.  And perhaps much more affluent.

I dunno, but it's been a bitch, trying to conform with Democrats', liberals', and primitives' notions of what I should be, as compared with what I was born best fitted to be.

Your situation growing up is exactly what I am bitchin' about! You wouldn't have been treated any different than anyone else after they figured out you could learn!

Nowadays, kids automatically get labeled with some kind of handicap if they refuse to learn.

Pisses me off to no end!

[AllosaursRus]

I have very little regard for what goes on in education today; however,  my great aunt taught in New Jersey her entire career, retired when she was knifed outside her classroom (in the early seventies) by a student.  I guess there will always be problems.  It seems most schools today are closer to the 'reform school' someone mentioned up post.  Armed guards, security cameras, cypher locks and on it goes.     Alternative schools?  I am not a big fan of that route either.  Answers?  Not as many as there are questions.

Sure there is! It's so frikkin' simple the liberal "progressives" will never think of it!

Kick their damned ass while you can! Puts the fear of God into 'em when they get older!

That's not reform school! That's keeping control of your frikkin' classroom so the few can't steal from the many!

[zeitgeist]

Sure there is! It's so frikkin' simple the liberal "progressives" will never think of it!

Kick their damned ass while you can! Puts the fear of God into 'em when they get older!

That's not reform school! That's keeping control of your frikkin' classroom so the few can't steal from the many!

One of my favorite theories is "one bite of the apple."  Kid is a problem? First time rehab ( or whatever they use), second time they are on the curb an mom an pop are on the hook for JR's education if any.  The progressives would really go bonkers with that one.  

I am not a big fan of corporal punishment unless conducted by the parent. It might work with little kids but once they get bigger not so well.

I am a fan of separating kids by IQ.  They aren't all little Einsteins. As Frank mentioned above many kids were given the 'option' of going to a Voc school at the end of eighth grade.   

[AllosaursRus]

One of my favorite theories is "one bite of the apple."  Kid is a problem? First time rehab ( or whatever they use), second time they are on the curb an mom an pop are on the hook for JR's education if any.  The progressives would really go bonkers with that one.  

I am not a big fan of corporal punishment unless conducted by the parent. It might work with little kids but once they get bigger not so well.

I am a fan of separating kids by IQ.  They aren't all little Einsteins. As Frank mentioned above many kids were given the 'option' of going to a Voc school at the end of eighth grade.   

I got news! I had corporal punishment clear thru the eighth grade! At home, when I ****ed up Dad would smack the hell outa me! Worked for us, why wouldn't it work for the current crop of juvenile delinquents? I guarandamnteeya we weren't packin' guns to settle arguments!

We never had the problem I see in schrools now!

[thundley4]

I got news! I had corporal punishment clear thru the eighth grade! At home, when I ****ed up Dad would smack the hell outa me! Worked for us, why wouldn't it work for the current crop of juvenile delinquents? I guarandamnteeya we weren't packin' guns to settle arguments!

We never had the problem I see in schrools now!

Yep. I even got a few swats my 8th grade year for graffiti in a bathroom. It was done with chalk.  OTOH, some "8th graders" are biiger than the teachers these days.

[Alpha Mare]

I am a fan of separating kids by IQ.  They aren't all little Einsteins.

The nuns didn't, everyone got the same work. You either got it or you didn't. But you'd have to make straight F's to fail; they were hard on the 'smart' kids.
 Now they've dumbed everything down so everyone can pass the danged tests.

And they invented corporal punishment!

[AllosaursRus]

The nuns didn't, everyone got the same work. You either got it or you didn't. But you'd have to make straight F's to fail; they were hard on the 'smart' kids.
 Now they've dumbed everything down so everyone can pass the danged tests.

And they invented corporal punishment!

No kiddin'! If we could just turn the clock back 30 years, we would again be the leaders in the world for education.

Alas, that's the last thing the liberals and the Teachers Unions want! After all, ya have to have DUmbasses in order to keep feedin' the gubmint trough!