The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: I_B_Perky on August 25, 2018, 07:34:07 PM
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Senator John McCain died at 4:28 p.m. on August 25, 2018.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sen-john-mccain-independent-voice-gop-establishment-dies-81-n790971 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sen-john-mccain-independent-voice-gop-establishment-dies-81-n790971)
I'll refrain from saying what I think about the man.
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McCain is making America great again!
What a guy! :whistling:
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Hi,
I too will refrain from giving my opinion of John McCain. Read Palin's book and you will get a behind the scenes look.
Now we will endure a deluge of unworthy praise for a politician who would say and do anything to get elected.
Like all people, no one is all good, or all bad. I voted for him for President. In his later years he abandoned those people he is supposed to represent.
May he rest in peace, and our country move forward.
Regards,
5412
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I prefer to honor his military service rather than his Congressional service, though it's tough to separate the two.
Rest In Peace, Senator. :taps:
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Like BSS, All respect to his military service. But he became a vindictive, petty, and bitter old asshole with an inflated sense of his own moral superiority who was co-opted into Hillary and Obozo turning Syria into a death factory, and almost succeeded in dragging us into the meatgrinder.
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R.I.P.
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Hi Tanker,
It's been awhile. I hope all is well in your part of the world.
Sad to say, when you look at his military service, it is not the best. From what I read he darn near took out an aircraft carrier and got several people killed in the process. I also read where the VC nicknamed him "songbird" for his willing cooperation in captivity.
Yet, unlike a former president, or a presidential candidate, when he took his oath, he served his country and did not come home and throw someone else's medals over the white house fence and become a protester....and lie to congress.
Bottom line, I personally do not celebrate his death - nor will I celebrate his life. I prefer to move on and hope someone is appointed to fill out his term that will respect our conservative cause.
Best regards,
5412
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I won't say anything bad about the guy. I figure that if anyone that is able to judge him for what he has done wrong then now it is God's time to do it.
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Hi,
Talk about media hypocrisy....Check this out.
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/08/26/left-wing-media-hypocrisy/#more-182203
This guy nails it.
Regards,
5412
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I am glad he is finally gone, he was a vet, but so were millions of others, he was a pow but so were many more who didn't get to spend a life time sucking on the government tit. Getting rich and fat. There are hundreds of thousands of viet nam and gulf vets that got shit on by the government, look at the mess the va is. old john boy never had to go through that.
Adios to a sour old man who stayed to long at the senate.
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Hi Tanker,
It's been awhile. I hope all is well in your part of the world.
Since he's permanently checked out of the net, I'm kinda affording him the benefit of the doubt on the service record, but I totally get where you're coming from on that score.
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Hi Tank,
If you are interested, here are the details. I served in the air wing and have find these situations dreadful.
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/08/26/ten-reasons-not-to-mourn-john-mccain/#more-182214
Regards,
5412
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Hi Tanker,
It's been awhile. I hope all is well in your part of the world.
Sad to say, when you look at his military service, it is not the best. From what I read he darn near took out an aircraft carrier and got several people killed in the process. I also read where the VC nicknamed him "songbird" for his willing cooperation in captivity.
Yet, unlike a former president, or a presidential candidate, when he took his oath, he served his country and did not come home and throw someone else's medals over the white house fence and become a protester....and lie to congress.
Bottom line, I personally do not celebrate his death - nor will I celebrate his life. I prefer to move on and hope someone is appointed to fill out his term that will respect our conservative cause.
Best regards,
5412
I want to correct you on the bolded part. On 29 July 1967, Lt. McCain was waiting on deck in his A-4 Skyhawk, portside aft, to launch on an airstrike in North Vietnam...
While preparing for the second sortie of the day, the aft portion of the flight deck was packed wing-to-wing with 12 A-4E Skyhawk, seven F-4B Phantom II, and two Vigilante aircraft. A total of 27 aircraft were on deck, fully loaded with bombs, rockets, ammunition, and fuel. Several tons of bombs were stored on wooden pallets on deck in the bomb farm.[15] A McDonnell Douglas F-4B Phantom (No. 110, BuNo 153061), flown by LCDR James E. Bangert and LT(JG) Lawrence E. McKay from VF-11, was positioned on the aft starboard corner of the deck, pointing about 45 degrees across the ship. It was armed with LAU-10 underwing rocket pods, each containing four unguided 5.0 in (127.0 mm) Mk-32 "Zuni" rockets. The Zuni was protected from launching by a safety pin that was only to be removed prior to launch from the catapult.
Zuni rocket launched
At about 10:51 (local time) on 29 July, an electrical power surge in the Phantom occurred during the switch from external to internal power. The electrical surge caused one of the four 5-inch Mk-32 Zuni unguided rockets in a pod on external stores station 2 (port inboard station) to fire. The rocket was later determined to be missing the rocket safety pin, allowing the rocket to launch. The rocket flew about 100 feet (30 m) across the flight deck, likely severing the arm of a crewman, and ruptured a 400 US gallons (1,500 l; 330 imp gal) wing-mounted external fuel tank on a Skyhawk from VA-46 awaiting launch.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/CVA-59_fire_aft_deck_plan.png)
A drawing of the stern of Forrestal showing the spotting of aircraft at the time. Likely source of the Zuni was F-4 No. 110. White's and McCain's aircraft (A-4s No. 405 and 416, respectively) are in the right-hand circle.
Aircraft struck
The official Navy investigation identified the Skyhawk struck by the Zuni as aircraft No. 405, piloted by Lieutenant Commander (Lt. Cmdr.) Fred D. White. Lt. Cmdr. John McCain stated in his 1999 book Faith of My Fathers that the missile struck his aircraft, alongside White's A-4 Skyhawk. "On that Saturday morning in July, as I sat in the cockpit of my A-4 preparing to take off, a rocket hit the fuel tank under my airplane." Later accounts relying on his book also state that the rocket struck his A-4 Skyhawk.
The Zuni rocket's warhead safety mechanism prevented it from detonating. The rocket broke apart on impact with the external fuel tank. The highly flammable JP-5 fuel spread on the deck under White's and McCain's A-4s, ignited by numerous fragments of burning rocket propellant, and causing an instantaneous conflagration. A sailor standing about 100 feet (30 m) forward was struck by a fragment of the Zuni or the exploding fuel tank. A fragment also punctured the centerline external fuel tank of A-4 #310, positioned just aft of the jet blast deflector of catapult number 3. The resulting fire was fanned by 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph) winds and the exhaust of at least three jets. Fire quarters and then general quarters were sounded at 10:52 and 10:53. Condition ZEBRA was declared at 10:59, requiring all hands to secure the ship for maximum survivability, including closing the fire-proof steel doors that separate the ship's compartments.
The official report states that one Korean War-era 1000-lb AN-M65 bomb fell from a A-4 Skyhawk to the deck; other reports say two. The bomb fell in a pool of burning fuel between White's and McCain's aircraft.
Damage Control Team No. 8, led by Chief Farrier, were the first responders to any incident on the flight deck. They immediately took action. Farrier, without taking the time to locate and put on protective clothing, immediately attempted to smother the bomb with a PKP fire extinguisher, attempting to delay the fuel fire from spreading and give the pilots time to escape their aircraft. Based on their training, the team believed they had a 10-minute window to extinguish the fire before the bombs casing would melt resulting in a low-order explosion.
The pilots, preparing to launch, were strapped into their aircraft. When the fire started and quickly spread, they immediately attempted to escape their aircraft. McCain, pilot of A-4 Skyhawk side No. 416, next to White's, was among the first to notice the flames, and escaped by scrambling down the nose of his A-4 and jumping off the refueling probe. Lt. Cmdr. Robert "Bo" Browning, in a A-4E Skyhawk on the port side, escaped by crossing the flight deck and ducking under the tails of F-4B Phantoms spotted along the starboard side.[23] CVW-17 operations officer, Lt. Cmdr. Herbert A. Hope of VA-46, escaped by jumping out of the Skyhawk cockpit and rolling off the flight deck and into the starboard man-overboard net. He went to the hangar deck and took command of a firefighting team.
Bombs detonate
Despite Chief Farrier's constant effort to cool the bomb that had fallen to the deck, the casing suddenly split open and the explosive began to burn brightly. The Chief, recognizing that a lethal cook-off was imminent, shouted for his firefighters to withdraw, but the bomb detonated — one minute and 36 seconds after the start of the fire. The unstable Composition B in the old bombs enhanced the power of the explosions. Thirty-five personnel were in close proximity to the blast. Two fire control teams were decimated; Farrier and all but three of his men were killed instantly. Twenty-seven men were injured.
"I saw a dozen people running... into the fire, just before the bomb cooked off," Lt. Cmdr. Browning later said. McCain saw another pilot on fire, and turned to help him, when the first bomb detonated. McCain was knocked backwards 10 feet, struck by shrapnel and wounded. White managed to get out of his burning aircraft but was killed by the detonation of the first bomb. Not all of the pilots were able to get out of their aircraft in time. Lt Ken McMillen escaped. LT(JG) Don Dameworth and LT(JG) David Dollarhide were injured escaping their aircraft. Lt. Cmdr.s Gerry Stark and Dennis Barton were missing. Two more of the unstable 1000 lb bombs exploded 10 seconds after the first, and a fourth blew up 44 seconds after that.
When he got back on deck, Browning recalled, "The port quarter of the flight deck where I was", he recalled, "is no longer there." LT James J. Campbell recoiled for a few moments in stunned dismay as burning torches tumbled toward him, until their screams stirred him to action. Several men jumped or were blown into the ocean. Neighboring ships came alongside and pulled the men from the water.
Fire enters lower decks
The first bomb detonation destroyed White's and McCain's aircraft, blew a crater in the armored flight deck, and sprayed the deck and crew with bomb fragments and shrapnel from the destroyed aircraft. Burning fuel poured through the hole in the deck into berthing compartments below. In the tightly packed formation on the aft deck, every aircraft, all fully fueled and bomb-laden, was damaged. Nine seconds later a second bomb exploded. Bodies and debris were hurled as far as the bow of the ship. All seven F-4s caught on fire.
In less than five minutes, seven or eight 1000-pound bombs, one 500-pound bomb, one 750-pound bomb, and several missile and rocket warheads heated by the fire exploded with varying degrees of violence.[26] Several of the explosions of the 1000-pound Korean War-era AN-M65 Composition B bombs were estimated to be as much as 50% more powerful than a standard 1000 lb bomb, due to the badly degraded Composition B.[16] The ninth explosion was attributed to a sympathetic detonation between an AN-M65 and a newer 500 lb M117 H6 bomb that were positioned next to each other. The other Composition H6-based bombs performed as designed and either burned on the deck or were jettisoned, but did not detonate under the heat of the fires. The ongoing detonations prevented fire suppression efforts during the first critical minutes of the disaster.
The explosions tore seven holes in the flight deck. About 40,000 US gallons (150,000 l; 33,000 imp gal) of burning jet fuel from ruptured aircraft tanks poured across the deck and through the holes in the deck into the aft hangar bay and berthing compartments. The explosions and fire killed fifty night crew personnel who were sleeping in berthing compartments below the aft portion of the flight deck. Forty-one additional crew members were killed in internal compartments in the after portion of Forrestal.
Personnel from all over the ship rallied to fight the fires and control further damage. They pushed aircraft, missiles, rockets, bombs, and burning fragments over the side. Sailors manually jettisoned numerous 250- and 500-lb. bombs by rolling them along the deck and off the side. Sailors without training in firefighting and damage control took over for the decimated damage control teams. Unknowingly, inexperienced hose teams using seawater washed away the efforts of others attempting to smother the fire with foam.
Fires controlled
The initial explosions killed or seriously injured most of the ship's specially trained damage control and firefighting teams, requiring the rest of the crew to step in and combat the subsequent fires.
The destroyer USS George K. MacKenzie (DD-836) picked men out of the water and directed its fire hoses on the burning ship. Destroyer USS Rupertus maneuvered as close as 20 feet (6.1 m) to Forrestal for 90 minutes, directing her own on-board fire hoses at the burning flight and hangar deck on the starboard side, and at the port-side aft 5-in. gun mount.[27] Rear Admiral and Task Group commander Harvey P. Lanham, aboard Forrestal, called the actions of Rupertus commanding officer Cmdr Edwin Burke an "act of magnificent seamanship".[27] At 11:47 A.M., Forrestal reported the flight deck fire was under control. About 30 minutes later, they had put out the flight deck fires. Fire fighting crews continued to fight fires below deck for many more hours.
Undetonated bombs were continually found during the afternoon. LT(JG) Robert Cates, the carrier's explosive ordnance demolition officer, calmly recounted later how he had "noticed that there was a 500-pound bomb and a 750-pound bomb in the middle of the flight deck... that were still smoking. They hadn't detonated or anything; they were just setting there smoking. So I went up and defused them and had them jettisoned." Another sailor volunteered to be lowered by line through a hole in the flight deck to defuse a live bomb that had dropped to the 03 level—even though the compartment was still on fire and full of smoke. Later on, LT(JG) Cates had himself lowered into the compartment to attach a line to the bomb so it could hauled up to the deck and jettisoned.
Throughout the day, the ship's medical staff worked in dangerous conditions to assist their comrades. HM2 Paul Streetman, one of 38 corpsmen assigned to the Forrestal, spent over 11 hours on the mangled flight deck tending to his shipmates. The large number of casualties quickly overwhelmed the ship's medical teams, and the Forrestal was escorted by USS Henry W. Tucker to rendezvous with hospital ship USS Repose at 20:54, allowing the crew to begin transferring the dead and wounded at 22:53. Firefighter Milt Crutchley said, "The worst was going back into the burned-out areas later and finding your dead and wounded shipmates." He said it was extremely difficult to remove charred, blackened bodies locked in rigor mortis "while maintaining some sort of dignity for your fallen comrades."
At 5:05, a muster of Forrestal crewmen — both in the carrier and aboard other ships — was begun. It took many hours to account for the ship's crew. Wounded and dead had been transferred to other ships, and some men were missing, either burned beyond recognition or blown overboard. At 6:44 p.m., fires were still burning in the ship's carpenter shop and in the aft compartments. At 8:33 P.M., the fires in the 02 and 03 levels were contained, but the areas were still too hot to enter. Fire fighting was greatly hampered because of smoke and heat. Crew members cut additional holes in the flight deck to help fight fires in the compartments below. At 12:20 a.m., July 30, 14 hours after the fires had begun, all the fires were controlled. Forrestal crew members continued to put out hot spots, clear smoke, and cool hot steel on the 02 and 03 levels. The fires were declared out at 4:00 A.M.
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I was a Radioman stationed at Subic Bay in 1967, I will not say I was THERE, other then being stationed at
Subic, and witnessing the Arrival of the Forrestal at the Naval Air Station Pier around the bay. It was a smoking
wreck, as thing began to settle down, the crew was allowed to go ashore to Subic, and Olongapo if they wished.
There was a lot of chatter, the stories I heard back there were basically the same, one plane got hit by the
rocket. I heard no names back then only later when the reports came out.
The zuni rocket problem story is sustainable, in 1969 I was stationed at Midway island when a similar event
occurred to the USS Enterprise at sea, northwest of the Hawaiian Islands. The story was the same, accidental
releaseof a Zuni missile, the resulting fire and explosions were pretty bad. Enterprise offloaded all of their squadrons
to Midway. We had an eventful day, they wre coming in faster then the Air Station Element could handle. (more planes
then midway had hosted since WWII). Even had one come in with a wheel up, little scary.
1967 - 69 was hell on Carriers, Same year as the Forrestal Disaster, we had a similar fire on the USS KittyHawk,
while in port at Subic. Took 3 days to get that one under control.
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I want to correct you on the bolded part. On 29 July 1967, Lt. McCain was waiting on deck in his A-4 Skyhawk, portside aft, to launch on an airstrike in North Vietnam...
Beautiful Zathras, thank you. Do you have a link for what you posted?
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A very good summary, Zathras. It understates somewhat the situation with the AN-M65 bombs. They had been improperly stored for years, and were seriously deteriorated. They were only distributed for use because the jump in usage of the more modern bombs had caused a shortage. The officer in charge of ordnance on the USS Forrestal wanted to reject the Korean War era bombs, but was over-ruled from very high up (in the Navy, not the ship). The result was the very short cook-off time and an explosion greater than would have happened had the bombs been in good condition.
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A very good summary, Zathras. It understates somewhat the situation with the AN-M65 bombs. They had been improperly stored for years, and were seriously deteriorated. They were only distributed for use because the jump in usage of the more modern bombs had caused a shortage. The officer in charge of ordnance on the USS Forrestal wanted to reject the Korean War era bombs, but was over-ruled from very high up (in the Navy, not the ship). The result was the very short cook-off time and an explosion greater than would have happened had the bombs been in good condition.
Interesting related story about the SS Badger State. Munitions Ship, carrying bombs and Rockets bound for Vietnam,
got caught in a sever storm 1500 miles NW of Hawaii.....(about 150 miles north of Midway. 20 foot storm waves broke
the bombs loose, and they were rolling around.
http://www.usmm.org/badger_state.html (http://www.usmm.org/badger_state.html)
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Beautiful Zathras, thank you. Do you have a link for what you posted?
It's the Wikipedia article on the USS Forestall fire. Another good source is the book Sailors To The End by Gregory Freeman.
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https://www.truthdig.com/articles/investigating-john-mccains-tragedy-at-sea/
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Aw, geez! :thatsright: Is that article now the current version of this conspiracy theory, a "light" version?
When, in a space of 2-3 minutes one goes from preparing to launch to a rocket going off in your midst to escaping from one's plane one's memory is not likely to be very precise. Why the hostility of reading intentional exaggeration into McCain's account?
McCain had to scramble over the nose of his A-4, in full flight suit. Why the hostility of snarking about the much encumbered McCain not joining the trained damage control people.
Further, McCain managed to escape his jet and got clear of the area before the bomb exploded. IOW, McCain left fighting the fire to the properly trained damage control people. This Conspiracy Light article implies that McCain left his plane after the bomb explosion in asking why he didn't immediately join the untrained personnel's efforts to fight the fire. Why the deceptive snark?
As for McCain's supposed haste to leave the Forrestal, pretty much all the aviation personnel left the ship fairly quickly. When it came to enabling the Forrestal to get out of the combat area and heading to the States for repairs, the aviation personnel would have been encumbrances that consumed food. Further, their skills were needed in the ongoing campaign. The article notes McCain requested transfer to the USS Oriskany, in other words, back to the combat where his skills would be used. What's with the article's haste to spin common sense actions to get back into combat into something sort of like cowardice?
Whether the version of this conspiracy theory which had the rocket coming from McCain's plane, or the version in which McCain's start of his jet engines started the fire, or now this version that tries to make McCain a coward, all three have three things in common:
* They are false and so badly concocted that they cannot withstand fact-checking plus cursory critical thought;
* They are rooted in irrational hatred rather than fact;
* They dishonor the men who died that day by trying to twist their sacrifice into a hate-driven false attacks on John McCain.
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Just a footnote to my post above. It should not be necessary to say this, but I had and have very little love for John McCain. I have less love, though, for slandering him - or anyone - with accusations of causing the deadly USS Forrestal fire and of cowardice.
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Aw, geez! :thatsright: Is that article now the current version of this conspiracy theory, a "light" version?
If I may, I'd like to share some perspective and maybe "riff" a little off of what you've posted.
When I entered the USN as a young strapping lad, the Forrestal fire was one of the lessons used in teaching damage control and fire fighting. Over the many years of my career, we practically studied that fire in great detail to see how not to do business when it comes to handling ordnance and fighting shipboard fires. I have a little bit more than normal Johnny Sailor experience in shipboard damage control since I was also part of the (non aircraft carrier) flight deck firefighting Crash and Salvage (Crash n Smash for those that know) team. As such, I'd like to share the following thoughts:
1. Whether or not McCain dropped his bombs by hitting switches in a mad scramble to get away from burning jet fuel and put them on the deck is irrelevant to them cooking off and exploding. On the deck, on the aircraft - it makes no difference considering there is only 3 feet or so of separation between the flight deck and the wing of the aircraft.
2. Back then, pilots were not required to be trained in fighting aviation fires (or any fires) - there were enlisted men designated for that task. Since Forrestal, carrier pilots are not only trained to fight fires, but also to take control of the scene and direct aviation fire fighting. I know this because I have been to several aviation firefighting schools and the Forrestal was beat into our heads.
3. McCain thinks the rocket struck his plane? In that situation, I may have thought it had struck mine as well. Could he have thought a rocket skipping across the flight deck may have knocked ordnance loose from his aircraft? I probably would have made the same connection since the speed and panic could have caused many things to flash in front of my eyes. I don't fault him for reaching that conclusion - I may have said the same thing.
4. McCain embellished a few things? Well, duh! That was kind of his thing, but he was a bit smarter about it than John effin Kerry.
5. The smartest thing he could have done as a guy who was trained to cause fires and explosions was to get out of the way of people who were trained to fight fires and explosions. What I have not read in anything is whether or not he returned to the flight deck to fight fires once it became an all hands evolution. He may have, he may not have, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt in the absence of any records saying he hid in a corner.
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IMHO, really, the pilots should GTFO in a deck fire anyway. The Navy can always get more planes (Up to a point, even if it means pulling up mothballed ones), patch the deck damage as quickly as the strategic situation demands, and the planes can't get out of the way, but conserving pilots is mission critical, with a slow and finite replacement cycle. Having two dozen junior officers 'Helping' the damage control parties, well, it might or might not add value, but doctrinally it doesn't seem like all that great an idea.
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IMHO, really, the pilots should GTFO in a deck fire anyway. The Navy can always get more planes (Up to a point, even if it means pulling up mothballed ones), patch the deck damage as quickly as the strategic situation demands, and the planes can't get out of the way, but conserving pilots is mission critical, with a slow and finite replacement cycle. Having two dozen junior officers 'Helping' the damage control parties, well, it might or might not add value, but doctrinally it doesn't seem like all that great an idea.
If the JOs are grabbing hoses instead of leading in the absence of a more qualified scene leader, things have gone drastically wrong - believe me.
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My understanding is that significant changes were made to carrier damage/fire control doctrine after the USS Forrestal fire, from training specialists to training widely among crew. And that this change was because of the team of specialists being more or less wiped out by that first bomb explosion.
One of the minor uncertainties as to what exactly ignited the fire is that in the process of tearing open the A-4 fuel tank and unshackling the bomb, the Zuni rocket broke apart. So the fire might have been ignited by rocket motor exhaust or hot fragments. Similarly, it is possible that McCain's A-4 was struck by a fragment of the Zuni.
There was some sort of video camera monitoring deck operations. Evidently it had the resolution necessary to discern which plane the Zuni struck first. But whether it had adequate resolution and frame rate to analyze the progress of events in good detail is doubtful (if the normal NTSC video of that time, the frame rate would be 30 per second; the persistence of the image orthicon camera tube might also affect the quality of captured video).
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Aw, geez! :thatsright: Is that article now the current version of this conspiracy theory, a "light" version?
When, in a space of 2-3 minutes one goes from preparing to launch to a rocket going off in your midst to escaping from one's plane one's memory is not likely to be very precise. Why the hostility of reading intentional exaggeration into McCain's account?
McCain had to scramble over the nose of his A-4, in full flight suit. Why the hostility of snarking about the much encumbered McCain not joining the trained damage control people.
Further, McCain managed to escape his jet and got clear of the area before the bomb exploded. IOW, McCain left fighting the fire to the properly trained damage control people. This Conspiracy Light article implies that McCain left his plane after the bomb explosion in asking why he didn't immediately join the untrained personnel's efforts to fight the fire. Why the deceptive snark?
As for McCain's supposed haste to leave the Forrestal, pretty much all the aviation personnel left the ship fairly quickly. When it came to enabling the Forrestal to get out of the combat area and heading to the States for repairs, the aviation personnel would have been encumbrances that consumed food. Further, their skills were needed in the ongoing campaign. The article notes McCain requested transfer to the USS Oriskany, in other words, back to the combat where his skills would be used. What's with the article's haste to spin common sense actions to get back into combat into something sort of like cowardice?
Whether the version of this conspiracy theory which had the rocket coming from McCain's plane, or the version in which McCain's start of his jet engines started the fire, or now this version that tries to make McCain a coward, all three have three things in common:
* They are false and so badly concocted that they cannot withstand fact-checking plus cursory critical thought;
* They are rooted in irrational hatred rather than fact;
* They dishonor the men who died that day by trying to twist their sacrifice into a hate-driven false attacks on John McCain.
Pete, I don't think you read the entire article.
I was NOT trying to continue any McCain bashing, or conspiracies but rather linked the article for people to get a better picture of McCain.
I highlighted a phrase you put in your reply; "McCain left fighting the fire to the properly trained damage control people."
In fact the article states; Whatever the circumstances of the fire’s origins, McCain did not stay on deck to help fight the blaze as the men around him did.
With the firefighting crew virtually wiped out, men untrained in fighting fires had to pick up the fire hoses, rescue the wounded or frantically throw bombs and even planes over the ship’s side to prevent further tragedy.
Another part of the article I thought interesting was; Aside from any questions about his Forrestal actions, McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”
The article SEEMS well sourced with many quotes. Believe or not there were questions about McCain's character.
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My understanding is that significant changes were made to carrier damage/fire control doctrine after the USS Forrestal fire, from training specialists to training widely among crew. And that this change was because of the team of specialists being more or less wiped out by that first bomb explosion.
One of the minor uncertainties as to what exactly ignited the fire is that in the process of tearing open the A-4 fuel tank and unshackling the bomb, the Zuni rocket broke apart. So the fire might have been ignited by rocket motor exhaust or hot fragments. Similarly, it is possible that McCain's A-4 was struck by a fragment of the Zuni.
There was some sort of video camera monitoring deck operations. Evidently it had the resolution necessary to discern which plane the Zuni struck first. But whether it had adequate resolution and frame rate to analyze the progress of events in good detail is doubtful (if the normal NTSC video of that time, the frame rate would be 30 per second; the persistence of the image orthicon camera tube might also affect the quality of captured video).
Little known fact, flight operations are routinely filmed on carrier decks, a policy that goes back to WWII. Both a training and accident investigation thing.
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Little known fact, flight operations are routinely filmed on carrier decks, a policy that goes back to WWII. Both a training and accident investigation thing.
Very interesting.
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Aside from any questions about his Forrestal actions, McCain had, in his short Navy career, crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in Spain because of, as he put it, “daredevil clowning.”
Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.
As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".
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Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.
As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".
I've caught a lot of the back-and-forth in this discussion and in other places concerning the Forrestal, plus I read the book a couple of decades ago The Nightingale's Song, an account of 5 graduates of the Naval Academy, McCain being one of them.
What I remember from having read that book is the flippant disregard that McCain had toward people, the incessant shenanigans he pulled, and how he interacted with others. To say that he was immature is putting it mildly.
The ring-knocker's club in the Naval Academy with Daddy being an influential flag officer of high rank just possibly might fit into this equation.
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I've caught a lot of the back-and-forth in this discussion and in other places concerning the Forrestal, plus I read the book a couple of decades ago The Nightingale's Song, an account of 5 graduates of the Naval Academy, McCain being one of them.
What I remember from having read that book is the flippant disregard that McCain had toward people, the incessant shenanigans he pulled, and how he interacted with others. To say that he was immature is putting it mildly.
The ring-knocker's club in the Naval Academy with Daddy being an influential flag officer of high rank just possibly might fit into this equation.
All true, and John McCain III was just a few midshipmen above the "Anchor Man". Were this a discussion of the last 18 years or so of John McCain's crap, all that would be relevant. But with regard to the fire on the USS Forrestal, all McCain's immaturity does not change simple facts:
* McCain was a member of an active airgroup;
* The Zuni rocket, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 1.0 came from an F-4, not John McCain's A-4;
* The exhaust and/or hot fragments from the Zuni ignited the leaking fuel, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 2.0;
* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, the bomb had not exploded, and specially trained personnel were fighting the fire, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;
* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, he was encumbered by his flight gear, making going back immediately after the explosion an irrational, useless move, again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;
* John McCain immediately volunteered for and was transferred to USS Oriskany, indicating that McCain's safety, performance, and courage were not in question, yet again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0
I get that people hate John McCain III. False accusations, like the three versions of this stupid conspiracy theory, just make those making the false accusations look stupid and irrationally vindictive. And, as I posted above, dishonors those who died in the fire.
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All true, and John McCain III was just a few midshipmen above the "Anchor Man". Were this a discussion of the last 18 years or so of John McCain's crap, all that would be relevant. But with regard to the fire on the USS Forrestal, all McCain's immaturity does not change simple facts:
* McCain was a member of an active airgroup;
* The Zuni rocket, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 1.0 came from an F-4, not John McCain's A-4;
* The exhaust and/or hot fragments from the Zuni ignited the leaking fuel, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Version 2.0;
* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, the bomb had not exploded, and specially trained personnel were fighting the fire, contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;
* When John McCain clambered out of his plane and cleared the area, he was encumbered by his flight gear, making going back immediately after the explosion an irrational, useless move, again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0;
* John McCain immediately volunteered for and was transferred to USS Oriskany, indicating that McCain's safety, performance, and courage were not in question, yet again contrary to Conspiracy Theory Light, Version 3.0
I get that people hate John McCain III. False accusations, like the three versions of this stupid conspiracy theory, just make those making the false accusations look stupid and irrationally vindictive. And, as I posted above, dishonors those who died in the fire.
A Lieutenant Commander in the Navy is "just a few midshipment above the "Anchor Man?"
Not disputing your statements about the Zuni rocket, where it came from, what it did when the electrical glitch fired it, and whether or not it hit McCain's A-4.
I guess even chumps like McCain do the right thing once in a while -- in his case, he got out of his aircraft and made it to safety while Dollarhide lay prostrate on the deck with a broken hip. OK, let's assume that McCain didn't see Dollarhide through all the smoke and flames. But then he flies out to Saigon to meet with the NY Times reporter RW Apple and becomes a PR officer. Doesn't bother attending the memorial services held on the Forrestal.
What kind of selfish creep does that?
OK, then he figures out he's got only 5 missions under his belt and decides he's going to be Johnny Hero by flying off the Oriskany.
Sounds like ticket-punching to me.
For me, it isn't the actual event on the Forrestal that bothers me about McCain. It's all the other crap before and after that is the mark of a punk who didn't get his ass handed to him often enough.
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A Lieutenant Commander in the Navy is "just a few midshipment above the "Anchor Man?"
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OK, then he figures out he's got only 5 missions under his belt and decides he's going to be Johnny Hero by flying off the Oriskany.
Sounds like ticket-punching to me.
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US Naval Academy students are called midshipmen; the "Anchor Man" in any USNA class is the graduate with the lowest rating, based on grades, military performance, and other factors. It's not an honor, but evidently some "anchors" went on to become Admirals.
Requesting transfer to combat duty on a carrier conducting combat missions is "ticket-punching"? :o I must not understand that obviously derogatory term correctly.
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US Naval Academy students are called midshipmen; the "Anchor Man" in any USNA class is the graduate with the lowest rating, based on grades, military performance, and other factors. It's not an honor, but evidently some "anchors" went on to become Admirals.
Thanks. I wasn't familiar with the term "Anchor Man" but I did know what midshipmen are.
Requesting transfer to combat duty on a carrier conducting combat missions is "ticket-punching"? :o I must not understand that obviously derogatory term correctly.
You've never heard of some officers who would seek (and get) an assignment to Vietnam for 30 days, just to become eligible for the Vietnam Service Medal? Not saying that characterized McCain as he was already in-country on board the Forrestal. But he was new having had only 5 combat missions under his belt. He clearly wanted more. And he definitely got more - probably more than he bargained for.
Ticket-punching is as old as the hills.
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Yes, I'm familiar with that, from version 2.0 of this conspiracy theory, the absurd version where McCain supposedly ignited the fire by doing a "hot start". It's absurd because McCain's exhaust was pointed overboard, not inboard toward the fuel on deck. Why you found this "interesting" is curious, since it's entirely irrelevant to the Forrestal fire.
As to "questions about McCain's character", if that was true, why was he transferred to the USS Oriskany, 2 or 3 generations of carriers older, and probably less robust? Why subject an air group and carrier crew to risk if there really were "questions about McCain's character"? The near immediate transfer is inconsistent with serious "questions about McCain's character".
Yeah, I don't think you really have a vet's appreciation for just how many chances an Academy grad whose Daddy was a three- or four-star in the same service gets in any of the branches, or how the services treat any other officer in an at-fault aircraft loss.
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Yeah, I don't think you really have a vet's appreciation for just how many chances an Academy grad whose Daddy was a three- or four-star in the same service gets in any of the branches, or how the services treat any other officer in an at-fault aircraft loss.
That's relevant to McCain getting chances after his antics flying Skyraiders. But it's irrelevant to the Forrestal fire, irrelevant to his actions after escaping his cockpit, and, given his several mission over the North, his being accepted on the Oriskany.
IOW, what's up with moving the "goalposts" from claiming McCain caused the fire to claiming McCain was a coward to claiming his getting transferred to the Oriskany was "ticket-punching"?! McCain has been backstabbing the Rs and betraying the American people in Congress for 18 years. What's the fixation with McCain's Forrestal and Oriskany service? And to where do the goalposts get moved next? :o ::)
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I'm not blaming him for the fire, but you're starting to go over the edge on this and seem to be assuming everyone that thinks he had an especially privileged career and a shitty record that would have gotten an ROTC commission or Mustang officer cashiered believes that. I'm just trying to reel you in. If he wasn't a ring-knocker 'Legacy,' he would have lost his wings and been on the street after losing a plane to power lines for nothing.
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That's relevant to McCain getting chances after his antics flying Skyraiders. But it's irrelevant to the Forrestal fire, irrelevant to his actions after escaping his cockpit, and, given his several mission over the North, his being accepted on the Oriskany.
IOW, what's up with moving the "goalposts" from claiming McCain caused the fire to claiming McCain was a coward to claiming his getting transferred to the Oriskany was "ticket-punching"?! McCain has been backstabbing the Rs and betraying the American people in Congress for 18 years. What's the fixation with McCain's Forrestal and Oriskany service? And to where do the goalposts get moved next? :o ::)
When Daddy "suggests" that little Johnny "be accepted" on the Oriskany, there aren't a lot of Navy personnel officers who are gonna say "No, Admiral, Little Johnny needs to finish his time on the Forrestal."
Goalposts, schmoalposts. Politics in the military are just as rampant - perhaps moreso - than they are on Capitol Hill.
I have no problem talking about McLame's backstabbing his own alleged party - the discussion came up about the Forrestal and a lot of information came out of that, some of which was suspect and other info pretty solid.
While we're at it, let's talk about McLame's refusal to have DJT attend the funeral - but I guess in Johnny's world, it's better to pull the rug out first rather than have DJT piss on it. Either way, Johnny winds up looking like the snotnose brat.
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While we're at it, let's talk about McLame's refusal to have DJT attend the funeral - but I guess in Johnny's world, it's better to pull the rug out first rather than have DJT piss on it. Either way, Johnny winds up looking like the snotnose brat.
As bad as that is, disallowing Sarah Palin, his 2008 running mate of all people, from the funeral makes him look far more petty. She didn't say anything bad about him (as far as I can remember), so why block her from attending?
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I'm not blaming him for the fire, but you're starting to go over the edge on this and seem to be assuming everyone that thinks he had an especially privileged career and a shitty record that would have gotten an ROTC commission or Mustang officer cashiered believes that. I'm just trying to reel you in. If he wasn't a ring-knocker 'Legacy,' he would have lost his wings and been on the street after losing a plane to power lines for nothing.
This.
Any class A accident (total destruction of aircraft) should trigger an investigation. A pilot found at fault for said accident, for example hotdogging and hitting some power lines, will pretty quickly find themselves driving a desk and on their way out of the service. McCain didn't have that happen. Although he may not have asked for it, and his father may not have asked either, there would be a "reluctance" among some commanders to take action against the admiral's son.
For comparison, the Marine aviator who clipped the cable car in 1998 in Italy ended up being tried for manslaughter and was eventually drummed out. And he had more seniority than McCain did at the time of his accident.
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As bad as that is, disallowing Sarah Palin, his 2008 running mate of all people, from the funeral makes him look far more petty. She didn't say anything bad about him (as far as I can remember), so why block her from attending?
Agreed, and that's an even better example of how petty McClain was.