primitives discuss nuclear power plant being shut down in Nebraska

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x594723

Oh my.

You know, I had discussed this very thing with our esteemed colleague NHSparky just yesterday, or the day before.

celtics23 (510 posts)        Thu Jun-23-11 09:46 AM
Original message
 
TDPS: Nebraska nuclear power plant close to shutdown, media virtually ignores, FAA helps them

this is in the political videos forum; video at the campfire

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-23-11 10:02 AM
Response to Original message

1. The media has not ignored those plants or the situation.

A Google search for the name of the plants makes it very clear that the story has been covered appropriately. Unless something more serious happens, it's primarily a local story. The national media has noticed the situation, too, but there's no real emergency situation. If an emergency situation arises, it will be covered, I have no doubt. Odds are very, very good that there will not be such a situation, though.

Disclaimer: Nuclear power generation is not safe. It has never been safe, and cannot be made to be safe. That said, it exists, and most plants operate with relatively few serious incidents. The exceptions, however, emphasize my original statement.

Essentially, it's because the Missouri River's getting higher and higher; higher than it's been known to.

ensho (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-23-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. in the blink of an eye

oldbanjo (88 posts)     Thu Jun-23-11 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
 
3. The most dangerest Plant is Ft Calhoun North of the Cooper Plant.

The no fly zone is to protect the Plant and elect wires from the News Helo's.

There are two nuclear power plants in Nebraska; Fort Calhoun just north of Omaha, and Cooper just outside of Brownville in the far southeastern corner of the state.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-23-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #3

5. Yup. That plant has been in cold shutdown for refueling since April. So far, no actual threats are current. There was a fire there in early June, but it was fixed in 90 minutes. No radioactivity releases. Just flood preparations according to the flood plan. It bears watching, but no disaster appears to be in the works at Calhoun.

The Cooper plant was still in operation as of yesterday, and flood levels were not expected to pose a major threat to the plant, which is ready to shut down if that changes.

A Google news search brings up all the pertinent information.

Currently, the Cooper plant is within 4-6" of being shut down.

But not to worry; these guys know what they're doing, even if the primitives don't.

oldbanjo (88 posts)     Thu Jun-23-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
 
9. I've been reading the news the Ft Calhoun Plant is where all the used Rods for the State are stored. As long as the Rod Pool is cooled everything will be OK.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-23-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
11. Yup, and they have several systems in place.

The flooding doesn't appear to be going to reach a level that would stop cooling of those storage pools.

RC  (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-23-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
6. Yeah right.

It is a no fly zone for security reasons. All nuclear power plants are that way, as well as some conventional power generation sites and oil refineries.

AtheistCrusader (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-23-11 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
 
8. Some EMS services are limited to the sites due to flooding.

A couple news helo's smacking into each other and crashing would be a serious problem, and yes, that HAS happened.

After which a primitive posts a large map of southeastern Nebraska, with the "no fly zones" shown.

oldbanjo (88 posts)     Thu Jun-23-11 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
 
10. The original back up power for the cooling Pumps at Ft Calhoun Plant was overhead wires, Generators were added recently. The main Power is underground and could be affected by flooding. Helo's and wires don't mix.

JayhawkSD (12 posts)      Thu Jun-23-11 01:01 PM
Response to Original message

12. You are being more than a little hyper-alarmist here

Air traffic is always prohibited over nuclear power plants. From time to time, especially at times when private and news aircraft want to violate that rule, FAA issues a directive reminding aviators of the rule. They are not shutting down aircraft traffic due to any kind of emergency, merely reminding aviators of a standing rule.

Nuclear reactors are located on rivers because they require a rather large quantity of cooling water. Having a lengthy discussion of why they are located in such "dangerous" locations if a bit silly. They cannot locate them where there is no water available to cool them.

Cooper is a pressurized water reactor, not the boiling water design type that failed at Fukushima. The safety issues of a BWR are several orders of magnitude greater than are in play with a PWR. In any case, an orderly gradual flooding is a dramatically different event than a massive earthquake and tsunami.

Well, too bad for the alarmist primitives.

[GOBUCKS]

I hope Omaha Steve is not in charge of the Nebraska reactors.

[franksolich]

I hope Omaha Steve is not in charge of the Nebraska reactors.

I can just see my fellow Nebraskan weeping as he mans the levers and stuff.

[franksolich]

I hope Omaha Steve is not in charge of the Nebraska reactors.

I had contacted NHSparky about this not because they're nuclear power plants, but apparently--if I interpreted our colleague's explanation correctly--they provide more than one-third of the electricity to Nebraska, and I was curious what we can expect if both plants ended up being shut down.

[NHSparky]

The safety issues of a BWR are several orders of magnitude greater than are in play with a PWR. In any case, an orderly gradual flooding is a dramatically different event than a massive earthquake and tsunami.

Whelp, actually, that would be untrue.  The safety systems (charging, decay heat removal, safety injection, feedwater) are pretty similar.  In fact, because of the higher temperatures and pressures PWRs operate at, they're a lot more expensive, although the AP1000 plants being planned and built have a lot few penetrations into the primary system, which cuts a lot of cost (although we're still talking $10 BILLION per unit).

And regardless of gradual flooding versus instant tsunami, hey, filled with water is filled with water.  Just a question of how quickly you get there, although what's going on at Cooper and Fort Calhoun isn't exactly new or unusual.  I was at Duane Arnold in the frozen tundra of Iowa after their floods in 2008, and seeing the pictures of how close the water got to the plant was pretty sobering.

[GOBUCKS]

I had contacted NHSparky about this not because they're nuclear power plants, but apparently--if I interpreted our colleague's explanation correctly--they provide more than one-third of the electricity to Nebraska, and I was curious what we can expect if both plants ended up being shut down.

A third of Nebraska's requirement could easily be covered by a tenth of the power no longer being used
by companies that have closed up shop in California.

[franksolich]

A third of Nebraska's requirement could easily be covered by a tenth of the power no longer being used
by companies that have closed up shop in California.

Well, I was surprised.

The two of them together make only as much power as Seabrooke in New Hampshire does.

[I_B_Perky]

I had contacted NHSparky about this not because they're nuclear power plants, but apparently--if I interpreted our colleague's explanation correctly--they provide more than one-third of the electricity to Nebraska, and I was curious what we can expect if both plants ended up being shut down.

I would guess that power from neighboring states would make up the loss. Not to mention the industrial customers, that get power at a cheaper rate with the understanding they must shut down in a power emergency. I live about 10-15 miles from a plant and my neighbor works there. He told me the first thing that happens during a power emergency is that the local industrial sites shut down. We had one happen here about 10 years ago when the main steam conduit at the plant developed a leak and had to be shut down for 3 days to be repaired. They bought power from other providers on the grid.

Dunno what will happen in your neck of the woods though Frank. I hope it works out OK for you folks out there.

[franksolich]

I would guess that power from neighboring states would make up the loss. Not to mention the industrial customers, that get power at a cheaper rate with the understanding they must shut down in a power emergency. I live about 10-15 miles from a plant and my neighbor works there. He told me the first thing that happens during a power emergency is that the local industrial sites shut down. We had one happen here about 10 years ago when the main steam conduit at the plant developed a leak and had to be shut down for 3 days to be repaired. They bought power from other providers on the grid.

Dunno what will happen in your neck of the woods though Frank. I hope it works out OK for you folks out there.

Well, we're soon reaching the annual peak of electrical usage in Nebraska--not for home air-conditioning, but for agriculture, although I suppose farmers aren't having to irrigate much this year, it being done by God and nature instead.

The dams up in South Dakota are full to nearly bursting, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has been increasing the water released from them, so as to take pressure off the dams, which of course causes floods southward.  It's a really touchy situation.  We need to have the dams hold; if one of them breaks, all Hell breaks loose south of them.  And at the same time, the Missouri River's already full to the brim itself.

I feel for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.  They're between a rock and a hard place.

[NHSparky]

A third of Nebraska's requirement could easily be covered by a tenth of the power no longer being used
by companies that have closed up shop in California.

Not quite that easy, but the ISO for Nebraska and the surrounding area can and does "shuffle" power around based on outages both of plants and of lines.

California is covered by the WECC and on the Western Interconnection, while Nebraska is covered by the Eastern Interconnection.  The proposed Tres Amigas substation is supposed to be able to tie together the Eastern, Western, and Texas Interconnections with a capacity of up to 30 GW.  Construction, IIRC, was supposed to begin this year, if it hasn't already.

But a little something for you.  Remember, it's a bit more than just flipping a switch and lights going on.

[Skul]

I can just see my fellow Nebraskan weeping as he mans the levers and stuff.

I do believe the only lever that DUmbass can handle, is the one on the toilet tank.
Most likely he has failed in that task, numerous occasions.

[GOBUCKS]

I would guess that power from neighboring states would make up the loss. Not to mention the industrial customers, that get power at a cheaper rate with the understanding they must shut down in a power emergency. I live about 10-15 miles from a plant and my neighbor works there. He told me the first thing that happens during a power emergency is that the local industrial sites shut down.

That is right. High volume industrial users have to make a decision when they contract for power. They can lock in a low rate, with a provision that they may be required to curtail use by a certain defined amount in the event of shortage, or they can pay a much higher rate for guaranteed supply. In my limited experience, they nearly always take the lower rate.

[I_B_Perky]

Well, we're soon reaching the annual peak of electrical usage in Nebraska--not for home air-conditioning, but for agriculture, although I suppose farmers aren't having to irrigate much this year, it being done by God and nature instead.

The dams up in South Dakota are full to nearly bursting, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has been increasing the water released from them, so as to take pressure off the dams, which of course causes floods southward.  It's a really touchy situation.  We need to have the dams hold; if one of them breaks, all Hell breaks loose south of them.  And at the same time, the Missouri River's already full to the brim itself.

I feel for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.  They're between a rock and a hard place.

I understand that Frank. From what I understand the USACOE is holding back water in the 3 damns here to ease the flooding on the Ohio and Mississippi and will continue to do it until September. That is gonna cause problems for us if we get a hurricane over North Carolina, which is where the New river starts, or if it hits in Virginia. These are old damns too. To make things worse, we are having a wet summer. Ground is soggy as hell which sends the water straight into the Kanawha, Elk and Coal. Those rivers are the highest I have ever seen them in June.

It's all Obama's fault!   

Only good thing that can come from this is that we will have an extended whitewater rafting season in the fall as the dams draw down to winter pool.

[franksolich]

I'm on the Elkhorn River--it's right in my backyard--and reasonably close to the Niobrara River.

Both of these feed into the Missouri River, the Niobrara near Yankton, South Dakota, and the Elkhorn down right outside of Omaha.  Both are past the dams of South Dakota, and so they're contributing to the problems with the Missouri River, as they make their way uninterrupted, unobstructed.

franksolich is in no imminent danger (and hence the primitives must rejoice), although the Elkhorn River is higher than I've ever seen it, and more turbulent too.  The bug-eyed caretaker, who's known this part of the river for 60 years, isn't sure if he's ever seen it higher than it is now, as the overuse of alcohol has numbed parts of his memory.  His estimation is that it's "damned high," but that it'll be a while before franksolich will have to grab the cats and leave.

[I_B_Perky]

I'm on the Elkhorn River--it's right in my backyard--and reasonably close to the Niobrara River.

Both of these feed into the Missouri River, the Niobrara near Yankton, South Dakota, and the Elkhorn down right outside of Omaha.  Both are past the dams of South Dakota, and so they're contributing to the problems with the Missouri River, as they make their way uninterrupted, unobstructed.

franksolich is in no imminent danger (and hence the primitives must rejoice), although the Elkhorn River is higher than I've ever seen it, and more turbulent too.  The bug-eyed caretaker, who's known this part of the river for 60 years, isn't sure if he's ever seen it higher than it is now, as the overuse of alcohol has numbed parts of his memory.  His estimation is that it's "damned high," but that it'll be a while before franksolich will have to grab the cats and leave.

I know what ya talking about Frank. I live a 100 yards from the Kanawha. Not necessarily "on the river" but when the river decides to get high, I feel it. Boy do I feel it. If it was to ever jump over the highway my house would be completely underwater.

Only good thing about where I live is that I can go 500 yards in the other direction and there is a nice big mountain, mountains are everywhere here, and escape if one of the dams ever break or the water gets too high.

Stay safe my friend. Rivers are gonna do what they want and having lived next to one for the last 45 plus years of my life I have learned that when the Corps of Engineers tell you to get out, you'd better damn well do it.   

[franksolich]

<<always prepared.

The Elkhorn River is a football-field's length away from my back door.  Between the house and the river is my backyard; nothing there excepting the flora and the occasional fauna.

Because of my "life style," the irreplaceables--the family stuff dating back to the 1720s, the china, the linen, the silver, the photographs, the letters, the diaries, the coronation stuff, &c., &c., &c.--is kept in a secured storage place in town; none of my "valuables" are out here.  There's some stuff in the safe deposit box at the bank, and my financial and legal stuff is in a safe 120 miles west of here.

Basically all that's here is thrift-store furniture.

So if worse came to worst, all I'd have to do is grab the cats and head out.

The question I can't seem to get an answer--perhaps in real life I ask it in a confusing way, I dunno--is this:

The Elkhorn River flows unimpeded into the Missouri River.

If a dam on the Missouri River up in South Dakota burst, that would of course overload the Missouri River south of it.  In fact, it could very well wipe out some towns on the Nebraska side.

(I'm miles and miles and miles away from the Missouri River itself.)

With all this water racing down the Missouri River from South Dakota, what happens with the water in the Elkhorn River also trying to merge with the Missouri?  Does it back up, or what?

[diesel driver]

I understand that Frank. From what I understand the USACOE is holding back water in the 3 damns here to ease the flooding on the Ohio and Mississippi and will continue to do it until September. That is gonna cause problems for us if we get a hurricane over North Carolina, which is where the New river starts, or if it hits in Virginia. These are old damns too. To make things worse, we are having a wet summer. Ground is soggy as hell which sends the water straight into the Kanawha, Elk and Coal. Those rivers are the highest I have ever seen them in June.

It's all Obama's fault!   

Only good thing that can come from this is that we will have an extended whitewater rafting season in the fall as the dams draw down to winter pool.

You are so right, Perky.

I live within spitting distance of the New River and one of its tributaries, Reed Creek.  I've never seen the creeks and rivers this full this late in the year.  Must be from all that "global warming" melting the ice caps, right? 

[NHSparky]

That is right. High volume industrial users have to make a decision when they contract for power. They can lock in a low rate, with a provision that they may be required to curtail use by a certain defined amount in the event of shortage, or they can pay a much higher rate for guaranteed supply. In my limited experience, they nearly always take the lower rate.

Good example of that, with the uncertainty about the future of the Vermont Yankee power plant, two of the largest customers in VERMONT have just signed long-term contracts to buy power directly from us:

LINK

Thanks, guys!  Keeps my job that much more secure!

[Skul]

I'm on the Elkhorn River--it's right in my backyard--and reasonably close to the Niobrara River.

Both of these feed into the Missouri River, the Niobrara near Yankton, South Dakota, and the Elkhorn down right outside of Omaha.  Both are past the dams of South Dakota, and so they're contributing to the problems with the Missouri River, as they make their way uninterrupted, unobstructed.

franksolich is in no imminent danger (and hence the primitives must rejoice), although the Elkhorn River is higher than I've ever seen it, and more turbulent too.  The bug-eyed caretaker, who's known this part of the river for 60 years, isn't sure if he's ever seen it higher than it is now, as the overuse of alcohol has numbed parts of his memory.  His estimation is that it's "damned high," but that it'll be a while before franksolich will have to grab the cats and leave.

I used to wade in the Elkhorn in my far younger days.
Unless you're close to Omaha, the release from upstream won't have any impact.
The Niobrara might cause a pain if they open Ft. Randall.
If you're miles away, I doubt that will have any impact either.

[GOBUCKS]

The Elkhorn River is a football-field's length away from my back door.  Between the house and the river is my backyard; nothing there excepting the flora and the occasional fauna.

There you go again! Now you've got Wild Bill and Mrs. Packer frantically driving back roads, old stagecoach tracks, and long-forgotten bison trails up and down both sides of the Elkhorn River, maybe even buying a two-man kayak to scope out areas too far from the roads. And everyone in town has been questioned by strangers about the location of the "William Rivers Pit". I sure hope they don't get caught up in the floodwaters.

[TVDOC]

The question I can't seem to get an answer--perhaps in real life I ask it in a confusing way, I dunno--is this:The Elkhorn River flows unimpeded into the Missouri River.

If a dam on the Missouri River up in South Dakota burst, that would of course overload the Missouri River south of it.  In fact, it could very well wipe out some towns on the Nebraska side.

(I'm miles and miles and miles away from the Missouri River itself.)

With all this water racing down the Missouri River from South Dakota, what happens with the water in the Elkhorn River also trying to merge with the Missouri?  Does it back up, or what?

Frank....I just checked the geological survey maps for your area, and the point where the Elkhorn river enters the Missouri river is 70 feet below the point on the river where you live.

IOW, the water level would have to increase 70 feet for the flood backwash from the Missouri to effect the Elkhorn where you live.  At that level virtually all of Omaha would be under at least 20 -30 feet of water.

doc

[franksolich]

Frank....I just checked the geological survey maps for your area, and the point where the Elkhorn river enters the Missouri river is 70 feet below the point on the river where you live.

IOW, the water level would have to increase 70 feet for the flood backwash from the Missouri to effect the Elkhorn where you live.  At that level virtually all of Omaha would be under at least 20 -30 feet of water.

doc

Thanks, sir.

I'm sure people tell me stuff like this in real life, but I don't catch it.

[franksolich]

There you go again! Now you've got Wild Bill and Mrs. Packer frantically driving back roads, old stagecoach tracks, and long-forgotten bison trails up and down both sides of the Elkhorn River, maybe even buying a two-man kayak to scope out areas too far from the roads. And everyone in town has been questioned by strangers about the location of the "William Rivers Pit". I sure hope they don't get caught up in the floodwaters.

Damn.

Now you gave me this "image" of two old hippies paddling a canoe down a river, one with a bad back.

And because there's no holidays between the 4th of July and Labor Day, I can't use it until Labor Day.

Thank you, sir.

[Skul]

Damn.

Now you gave me this "image" of two old hippies paddling a canoe down a river, one with a bad back.

And because there's no holidays between the 4th of July and Labor Day, I can't use it until Labor Day.

Thank you, sir.

Probably side tracked on the Long Pine, looking for the confuence to the Elkhorn.
Bring beer, this is going to take a while.

[I_B_Perky]

You are so right, Perky.

I live within spitting distance of the New River and one of its tributaries, Reed Creek.  I've never seen the creeks and rivers this full this late in the year.  Must be from all that "global warming" melting the ice caps, right?