https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216276372Sympthsical (3,082 posts)
COVID death celebration evokes memories of HIV death celebration
As a young gay man, I had a very formative impression instilled in me in my developing years. When people on the Right (and sometimes not so much) were happy when someone they hated died of AIDS. And I'm not talking about the 1980s when HIV wasn't understood well, when transmission was a bit unknown, when the risks weren't fully understood.
I'm talking about in my lifetime, in my adolescence during the 90s and beyond. Rush Limbaugh had several infamous remarks about it. "I hope you get AIDS and die," was something still said when I was a teenager and trying to shape my identity and struggle out from the clouds of Catholic guilt and shame and society's broad disapproval of what my life would be.
It's inhumane. The people who engaged in it had no empathy. They barely saw the afflicted as people. They were the bad people, the people who deserved it. And yes, a lot of people in my community ended up getting it through bad choices. Risky sex. After they knew better, they still made those choices.
Ask yourself, were you there clapping when those people died from poor choices? Were you clapping when people who lacked sex education or received misinformation wasted away from a disease they walked into?
Maybe it's me, maybe I'm wired differently, but HIV and AIDS have existed my entire life. That cloud of death, that lost generation shaped and formed who I ultimately became as a gay man. I remember, when I was preteen or teen, nearly every gay movie I could find (which wasn't easy when sneaking into the local Blockbuster), was about death or grief or about whether or not a positive man and negative man should date. A sadness hovered over everything, that life and love were fleeting and always would be, because the plague coated everything in a dangerous film. Even in a happy film like "Jeffrey" someone had to suddenly die of AIDS by the end.
And the Right loved it. High five! Another one of those dead. Could you imagine if there was a subreddit called the Freddie Mercury Awards? Would you be ok with that?
I won't celebrate death and suffering. Even if that person thinks differently than me about politics. Even if that person made a poor decision that resulted in getting disease. Death to me is a sadness. When a terrible person dies, it's still a sadness, because I think about what that person's life could have been had they made different choices or had different opportunities.
Celebrating the death of the Other is something I grew up with. It's not something I'll ever share in. And when I see others do it, I think lesser of them.
Being a lesser person is always a choice.
JMHO.
So, Sympthsical goes "there." And, predictably, the DUpipo scream in unison, "That's totally different!!!!!"
Moebym (870 posts)
33. I'm sorry, but there is a difference. This is about the *intent* to do harm.
Your family and friends did not, like many unvaxxed COVID-19 patients did, deliberately engage in risky behavior that they knew could cause harm to others. (With COVID-19, it takes just one person to cause a cluster of cases, so the potential for harm was enormous.)
They did not test positive, lie about it, then go to gatherings with someone they knew was immunocompromised and therefore vulnerable.
They didn't threaten essential workers trying to serve them or enforce rules that would help curb the spread of the virus.
They did not intentionally cough on or touch cancer patients or other immunocompromised people to infect them.
They did not go to testing stations to harass the staff and steal their equipment.
I could go on.
To every single, "They did not--" I respond, some did.
treestar (79,489 posts)
94. Still a big difference
How can you not see that? Getting one vaccine which helps tremendously, vs. many decisions over time which may or may not have caused them to contract the disease, one where bad luck in one decision can cause one to contract it, while several might slide, and have the good luck not to get it? It is not nearly as focused as it is with Covid. All you have to do is get the vaccine and wear a mask. Vs. many different decisions about who to have sex with over the years and how much risk to take.
"One" vaccine? When did that happen. It was two. Then two, plus a booster, and now they are talking about a fourth jab, with not end in sight. "All you have to do is get the vaccine and wear a mask." Yes? And then what? You are guaranteed not to get it?
This is a particularly interesting exchange.
dsc (50,912 posts)
26. In the early days of HIV there were some number of people who refused to take precautions
there were several groups of gay idiots who refused to close bathhouses and refused to wear condoms. You also had bug chasers. That said, it didn't take long for the community to become better in that regard. The overwhelming majority of the community was responsible.
ProfessorGAC (52,024 posts)
28. Were They Openly...
...discouraging others from being safe or aggressively spreading disinformation about routes of transmission?
If not, I don't think the parallels suggested in the OP are on solid ground.
dsc (50,912 posts)
31. Oh yes they were
especially in terms of the bath houses. Those were businesses and didn't want to be closed down. In their defense, it wasn't completely nuts to think that people were taking advantage of a virus to sex shame gays. But even well after it was well established that the danger was real, those bath house defenders were still at it.
ProfessorGAC (52,024 posts)
37. I'll Trust You, But...
...they weren't blowtorching it on the internet & on major mass media for profit & fame.
I still think we're comparing golf balls to whales.
FreeState (10,044 posts)
41. But they were
Look up HIV denialism in the gay male community in the 90s. It parallels COVID - it’s not real, government hoax etc. there people making money and publishing materials they made money off of it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_denialism
dumbcat (1,961 posts)
84. It certainly wasn't blowtorching on the internet at that time
The 'net didn't really get popular until the mid to late 90's.
Scrivener7 (40,213 posts)
43. But that was them choosing to put themselves in danger. Not other people. Going to a bath house
was a choice. One could choose to go and take one's chances, or not to go. We don't have the choice to not go to doctor's offices or supermarkets or jobs, etc.
Sympthsical (3,082 posts)
54. How do you think HIV spread?
It didn't fall out of the sky like a catastrophic comet of disease. People made poor choices and then spread it to others who maybe didn't think they were making a poor choice.
The first boyfriend I had who was HIV positive got it from his boyfriend. His boyfriend cheated on him. The boyfriend didn't know he caught it, and my ex thought he was in a monogamous relationship.
Omicron is showing us people who do this. My partner's friend didn't think he had it. He gave it to my partner and assorted other people. And then my partner gave it to me.
I have done all that has been asked of me. Always wear a mask, socially distance, work from home, stay away from group activities. I still got it. It only took one person to think they were fine when they were not and all the people down the chain trusting that one person. I didn't even know I was trusting that one person up the chain. He thought he had a cold and didn't draw attention to it. Many people with HIV had no idea they had it and spread it to others.
That's why I say, this eagerness to rain down righteousness is not a good look. At least not to me, who has lived with and through a community that went through an epidemic involving a lot of death.
Sympthsical is an interesting DUpipo. He was extremely realistic about the Rittenhouse trial and verdict, unlike most of the DUmp.
This clown, right here, is much more typical of the DUpipo.
Jon King (1,798 posts)
12. Nope, totally 100% disagree, have never disagreed with anything more, ever.
Not even close to a proper analogy. Wishing someone dies of HIV is pure evil.
Wishing a Trumper MAGA untra religious freak who would not hesitate to destroy my kid's climate, make them have to wear bulletproof backpacks to school because they worship guns, and would not think twice about non Trump voters being rounded up and put into re-education camps?
No way, equating someone's 'choices' about their sexuality and they die of AIDS to being glad someone is no longer around who is actively seeking to destroy my family is ridiculous.
Sympthsical (3,082 posts)
49. That's what gets me
I'm not a hyper-partisan person. I'm a liberal Democrat because that's where my ideology and policy desires align. But I don't submerge into echo chambers or only hear or see things that I want or dismiss facts or reality because I need narratives to be true. Sometimes, what I want to be correct just isn't. And that's ok. Changing one's mind based on evidence should always be ok.
So given my attitude, it's like, I just want to ask, "Do people know what this place is starting to look like to outsiders?" I suppose the Meat Loaf thing was enough to snap me out. Everywhere I look, friends and people on social media remembering the man's music, the good memories, positive experiences. Lots of liberals and Democrats.
Then pop in here, and it's like "Shiiiiiiiiit Booooooooomb!!!!!!" Did I misclick into 4chan? No one has to like him or his music or his politics. But the gleeful pile on. The hell?
I think the pandemic and lack of offline socialization is just getting into social media segments in terrible ways. There's no real social correction for bad behavior, no having to staying in the room after you drop a steaming verbal pile in front of other people. No feedback that we usually use to gauge what is and is not ok.
So it devolves into a free-for-all. And hate, reinforced with hate, just ends up with a chaotic hate fest.
It's just not a good look to celebrate death. If it's Trump, eh, fine. I get it. But we're getting average people, people down the street, co-workers, family.
Whenever I see headlines like, "Covid is leading to a mental health crisis," I think to myself, "No. Shit."
Well said, DUde. Well said.
