Author Topic: Purpose of conservatism  (Read 8131 times)

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Offline flaja

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Purpose of conservatism
« on: December 25, 2008, 09:48:30 AM »
What is it that is inherently conservative about:

Low taxes
Low government spending
A balanced budget
Strong military
Opposition to the UN
Opposition to foreign aid
Welfare spending
Opposition to foreign alliances
Opposition to central economic planning (from government while such planning from Wall Street is OK?)

What is it that is inherently liberal about:

High taxes
High government spending
Weak military
Abortion
Marriage for sodomites
Support of the UN
Support for foreign aid
Welfare spending
Support for central economic planning

Do some issues go beyond left and right?  How do the concepts of right and wrong play into socio-economic-political ideology?

What is the ultimate purpose for conservatism and liberalism?

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2008, 01:20:21 PM »
I doubt you'll be happy here, and responding to you point by point would waste a lot more of my life than I want to spend on it, especially since your parentheticals and certain nuances indicate you just want to quibble and aren't actually interested in learning anything.

However....

The two concepts are not so much end states as they are fundamental philosophies.

The central idea of Conservatism is that things are working tolerably well under traditional forms and while they may need periodic tweaks or adjustments, or even major intervention to meet truly extraordinary events, the system is working tolerably well.  Now, conceptions about what those traditions and founding ideas actually are, or what parts might need tweaking, vary considerably from person to person, so there is not necessarily a unifying single social issue that all Conservatives everywhere would nod and say, yep, that captures it.

The central idea of Liberalism is that traditional forms have failed dismally to accomplish what they are supposed to (and ideals of what they are supposed to accomplish are highly diffuse and variegated in the Liberal mind), and the only means to correct this is through massive social change in societal institutions (and what those changes should be is another wildly divergent field, ranging from prohibiting corporal punishment of children to killing off half the Earth's population to 'Save the planet').

Neither set is monolithically devoted to the programs, ideas, and objectives you ascribe to them.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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Offline flaja

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 02:04:57 PM »
I doubt you'll be happy here, and responding to you point by point would waste a lot more of my life than I want to spend on it, especially since your parentheticals and certain nuances indicate you just want to quibble and aren't actually interested in learning anything.

In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas.  You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.

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The central idea of Conservatism is that things are working tolerably well under traditional forms and while they may need periodic tweaks or adjustments, or even major intervention to meet truly extraordinary events, the system is working tolerably well.

Then why do so many self-proclaimed conservatives on the net don’t see anything wrong with things like Sodomite marriage when traditional heterosexual and monogamous marriage has served Western Civilization for thousands of years?

Quote
Now, conceptions about what those traditions and founding ideas actually are, or what parts might need tweaking, vary considerably from person to person, so there is not necessarily a unifying single social issue that all Conservatives everywhere would nod and say, yep, that captures it.

So the individual is supreme and doesn’t have to answer to society.  Isn’t this liberalism or libertarianism rather than conservatism?

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The central idea of Liberalism is that traditional forms have failed dismally to accomplish what they are supposed to

And what are the traditional forms supposed to have accomplished? If we cannot agree on this point, then nobody ever expected the traditional forms to do anything so there is no reason for conservatives to uphold them.

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Neither set is monolithically devoted to the programs, ideas, and objectives you ascribe to them.

I made this post in light of the diversity of opinion one encounters on the net.  I want to know what the arbiters of conservatism and liberalism are.  If it is up to every individual to decide what his ideology is, then no ideology can legitimately exist due to the diversity that results.  But politicians, the news media, internet posters and everyone in general throw the terms liberal and conservative around anyway.

Offline Chris

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2008, 02:25:14 PM »
In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas.  You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.

Maybe you should try to participate in other, active discussions before throwing around accusations about a site you just joined.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2008, 02:29:23 PM »
Quote
In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas.  You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.

We have a moderator who is a Democrat who voted for Obama, and another who is a Pro-Choice Atheist.

There is no "yes" society here, and it would probably serve you a little better to observe this place before you start shooting your mouth off about it.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2008, 02:33:03 PM »
What is it that is inherently conservative about:

Low taxes
Low government spending
A balanced budget
Strong military
Opposition to the UN
Opposition to foreign aid
Welfare spending
Opposition to foreign alliances
Opposition to central economic planning (from government while such planning from Wall Street is OK?)

What is it that is inherently liberal about:

High taxes
High government spending
Weak military
Abortion
Marriage for sodomites
Support of the UN
Support for foreign aid
Welfare spending
Support for central economic planning

Do some issues go beyond left and right?  How do the concepts of right and wrong play into socio-economic-political ideology?

What is the ultimate purpose for conservatism and liberalism?


Your premise is fundamentally flawed.

I don't address stereotypes.  Not even ones who post messages.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 02:34:58 PM »
I recommend shunning.

Anyone with such a complete inability to put together a cogent thought isn't even worth banning, unless it becomes abusive.

Lets not waste our time on this primitive.
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Offline flaja

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2008, 05:08:22 PM »
Maybe you should try to participate in other, active discussions before throwing around accusations about a site you just joined.

Then why did DAT say that I wouldn’t be happy here before he made any attempt to ascertain what I believe?  He automatically assumed that the posters here would not agree with me.  He saw me as an outsider and essentially attacked me; he didn’t want to risk the presence of anyone who wouldn’t be his yes man. 

Offline flaja

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2008, 05:09:58 PM »
We have a moderator who is a Democrat who voted for Obama, and another who is a Pro-Choice Atheist.

And this is a conservative board?

Offline flaja

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2008, 05:12:48 PM »
Your premise is fundamentally flawed.

I don't address stereotypes.  Not even ones who post messages.



Then tell me why have the news media and assorted politicians taken something like low taxes as the conservative position?  Why couldn’t low taxes be the liberal position?

Offline Eupher

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2008, 05:13:11 PM »
Quote
I want to know what the arbiters of conservatism and liberalism are.

Great! Have you checked with DU yet? If not, go ahead and post your questions there first, then come back and we'll discuss it.


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Offline Chris

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2008, 05:13:38 PM »
Then why did DAT say that I wouldn’t be happy here before he made any attempt to ascertain what I believe?  He automatically assumed that the posters here would not agree with me.  He saw me as an outsider and essentially attacked me; he didn’t want to risk the presence of anyone who wouldn’t be his yes man. 

It seems your reputation has preceeded you. 
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Offline asdf2231

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2008, 05:26:15 PM »
And this is a conservative board?

Yes it is and a pretty happy one.

Both are valuable members and good people.

What of it?




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Offline thundley4

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2008, 05:34:00 PM »
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2008, 05:45:09 PM »
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.
Not a mole at all. He/she posted his/her stupidity (thus DU quals) on the OP.

Shun folks -- shun.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2008, 05:46:46 PM »
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.

Nope, not a DUmmie.  He's been ran into before by other members on other forums.
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Offline flaja

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2008, 05:59:12 PM »
Nope, not a DUmmie.  He's been ran into before by other members on other forums.

So what of it?  I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer.  All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.

As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.

Offline Chris

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2008, 06:01:17 PM »
So what of it?  I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer.  All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.

As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.

If we don't meet your rigorous standards, you are free to leave.  The internet is a big place... don't let us cramp your style.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »
So what of it?  I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer.  All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.

As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.


Then why stay?  The door is that way.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2008, 06:12:30 PM »
So what of it?  I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer.  All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.

As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.


Because your question is based on an invalid premise.  We won't answer "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.

And the nature of your premise shows you are an idiot and a fool.  And we don't suffer fools lightly here.

But feel free to leave.  Or post a real question.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2008, 06:12:46 PM »
And this is a conservative board?

Oh your priceless.  You get pissy and call us all "Yes" men, and when you find out that there are actually quite a diversity of idea's here you attack that.

It sounds to me like your the type who want that lock-step hardcore conservative yes man forum.  Well your not going to find it here.  Your free to post your thoughts and idea's here, but expect people to disagree with you.

But if you don't like idea, then don't feel like your hurting anyones feelings by leaving.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2008, 06:13:48 PM »
Oh your priceless.  You get pissy and call us all "Yes" men, and when you find out that there are actually quite a diversity of idea's here you attack that.

It sounds to me like your the type who want that lock-step hardcore conservative yes man forum.  Well your not going to find it here.  Your free to post your thoughts and idea's here, but expect people to disagree with you.

But if you don't like idea, then don't feel like your hurting anyones feelings by leaving.

He/she is a troll or just too stupid for words.  Probably both.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2008, 06:56:24 PM »
Quote
Then why do so many self-proclaimed conservatives on the net don’t see anything wrong with things like Sodomite marriage when traditional heterosexual and monogamous marriage has served Western Civilization for thousands of years?

You're mistaking Conservatives with RINO's.  And the one or two so called Conservatives that I've seen on a board like this that DID claim to support gay marriage were generally shouted down on the topic by the large majority of the board.

Perhaps the problem is that you are stumbling upon Libertarian/Ron Paul forums and not true conservative sites.


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And this is a conservative board?

Yes very much so.  And if you'd quit looking down your nose at the rest of us you'd realize that.


Quote
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.

And you're an arrogant pri*k  You 100%'er types are the reason that Obama is becoming the 44th President.  Not the rest of us voting for Sarah Palin.

Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your John Birch Society views of what pass for "Conservatism" are automatically left wing.   :whatever:  Give me a friggin break.  I've seen your type before.  You're the troll in the Rush Limbaugh threads calling him a sellout...the idiot in the Sunday Morning Talk Show thread at FR calling all of us "life long John McCain supporters" and scoffing at the fact that we were puling the lever for not because we liked him but because Obama taking the oath was a far worse prospect.

You fancy yourself the "Ultimate Conservative"...and everyone else just mere pretenders.


It's a good thing you think so highly of yourself.

You're the only one.




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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2008, 06:57:18 PM »
Hey flaja quick question.

Do you view Ronald Reagan as a "real Conservative"?
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn

Offline Rebel

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Re: Purpose of conservatism
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2008, 07:20:01 PM »
Then tell me why have the news media and assorted politicians taken something like low taxes as the conservative position?  Why couldn’t low taxes be the liberal position?

Show me one liberal that advocates lower taxes. ...then we'll talk.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site