Are you in favor of the auto bailout?

[Wretched Excess]

the white house is in favor of the bailout.  conservatives are not.  I would like to get a sense of the board on this issue.

Vote

[Duke Nukum]

I'm against it because nothing is really going to change if they get the money.  The UAW will continue to be a drain and Congress will continue to design the cars that Americans don't seem interested in buying and so how will $15 billion change anything?

[Traveshamockery]

These bailouts are out of control but what is really out of control are the politicians screaming and yelling and more or less threatening that if this isn't done, we will all pay. 

I think the employees and the UAW should buy these companies and run them.  They could get them pretty cheap. 

[Schadenfreude]

They will never change their behavior. By bailing them out, we just delay the inevitable. I would sooner bail out mom and pop businesses than to give those schmucks one red cent.

Force them to adapt to the global economy or suffer the consequences.

Oh dear... I sound so tuff. 

[debk]

I think they should take bankruptcy. That would make the contracts with the UAW null and void.

I saw the Union guy...Gettlefinger? on the news tonight....the union should be willing to redo their contracts ...if they aren't...then the consequences should happen.

As long as the union is not willing to make significant changes....the bailout won't work.

[Wretched Excess]

They will never change their behavior. By bailing them out, we just delay the inevitable. I would sooner bail out mom and pop businesses than to give those schmucks one red cent.

Force them to adapt to the global economy or suffer the consequences.

Oh dear... I sound so tuff. 

you are blowing your cover as a carefree lounge lizard.  jus' sayin'.

[Wretched Excess]

I think they should take bankruptcy. That would make the contracts with the UAW null and void.

I saw the Union guy...Gettlefinger? on the news tonight....the union should be willing to redo their contracts ...if they aren't...then the consequences should happen.

As long as the union is not willing to make significant changes....the bailout won't work.

the corker bill merely required that the UAW accept the same wages as transplant corporations.  the UAW will gladly drive this country into the ground just in effort to keep their workers' wages 75% above the transplant workers' wages.

[Odin's Hand]

No.

My reasoning: http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,19327.15.html

[debk]

the corker bill merely required that the UAW accept the same wages as transplant corporations.  the UAW will gladly drive this country into the ground just in effort to keep their workers' wages 75% above the transplant workers' wages.

Which is why there should be no bailout and they should be forced into bankruptcy.

The workers at the southern auto plants are not losing their jobs either....they are more interested in having jobs, and keeping them ...than belonging to a union. Plus the "transplant" corporations pay their CEO's annual salaries that are less than what the big 3 guys make in one month!! I read somewhere where they make approximately $250,000 a year, and may get a $1M bonus if they have stellar sales and performance.

[Wretched Excess]

Which is why there should be no bailout and they should be forced into bankruptcy.

The workers at the southern auto plants are not losing their jobs either....they are more interested in having jobs, and keeping them ...than belonging to a union. Plus the "transplant" corporations pay their CEO's annual salaries that are less than what the big 3 guys make in one month!! I read somewhere where they make approximately $250,000 a year, and may get a $1M bonus if they have stellar sales and performance.

the problem with that is that the economy is organic;  you can't kill one part without withering the whole vine.

if detroit goes belly-up, and God knows that they deserve to, it will also take down the prospering transplant auto companies.

[debk]

the problem with that is that the economy is organic;  you can't kill one part without withering the whole vine.

if detroit goes belly-up, and God knows that they deserve to, it will also take down the prospering transplant auto companies.

I don't think it will take down the transplamnt companies so much as it will take down all the manufacturing companies that make bits and parts for the auto companies. Many of them are small business owners, and they do extensive work for the auto manufacturers or companies that make something else that go into cars....ie speakers, seat belts, screws, wheel rims, etc.

They are the ones who are experiencing the trickle down....ripple out effect. (Just as the many people who are involved in the housing industry are suffering through the mortgage crisis.)

My other half is a machinery broker (after 40 years in the tool & die, and metal stampings business) and he's seeing a lot of companies that make "bits and parts" in trouble.

[Wretched Excess]

I don't think it will take down the transplamnt companies so much as it will take down all the manufacturing companies that make bits and parts for the auto companies. Many of them are small business owners, and they do extensive work for the auto manufacturers or companies that make something else that go into cars....ie speakers, seat belts, screws, wheel rims, etc.

They are the ones who are experiencing the trickle down....ripple out effect. (Just as the many people who are involved in the housing industry are suffering through the mortgage crisis.)

My other half is a machinery broker (after 40 years in the tool & die, and metal stampings business) and he's seeing a lot of companies that make "bits and parts" in trouble.

i got distracted when I was replying to you;  I meant to also include the suppliers to the big three.  THEY are the ones that need to be protected.  but, my question is, how inflated is the gross profit of the feeder companies if the operating expenses of the big three are so high?

think about that one.  there are several schools of thought.

[debk]

Since the other half used to make several parts for one of the suppliers, it wasn't that much on his end. Now how much they were marked up in the finished product shipped to the auto companies, that I don't know.

He had to purchase the metal, then make the part, ship it to a small to mid size manufacturer, who used the parts to complete a finished product, who then in turn ship it to the auto manufacturer. Also had to jump through the safety spec hoops just as the finished product manufacturer did. Though all products have to be A-1 perfect....which is to be expected....and the profit is not that great on individual pieces, unless the quantities are extemely high.....the each manufacturer is going to go with whoever passes quality control inspections and will do it the cheapest.

So where exactly is the mark up?

It's at each stage, though not maybe not much at each individual stage....those markup mount up. Then once the auto maker puts it all together, there's another markup...then the dealer does an additional one.

It's like an upside down pyramid.

And when the heavy top crashes....it will take each subsequent level down with it....

[Wretched Excess]

Since the other half used to make several parts for one of the suppliers, it wasn't that much on his end. Now how much they were marked up in the finished product shipped to the auto companies, that I don't know.

He had to purchase the metal, then make the part, ship it to a small to mid size manufacturer, who used the parts to complete a finished product, who then in turn ship it to the auto manufacturer. Also had to jump through the safety spec hoops just as the finished product manufacturer did. Though all products have to be A-1 perfect....which is to be expected....and the profit is not that great on individual pieces, unless the quantities are extemely high.....the each manufacturer is going to go with whoever passes quality control inspections and will do it the cheapest.

So where exactly is the mark up?

It's at each stage, though not maybe not much at each individual stage....those markup mount up. Then once the auto maker puts it all together, there's another markup...then the dealer does an additional one.

It's like an upside down pyramid.

And when the heavy top crashes....it will take each subsequent level down with it....

I watched on foxnews this evening that GM and Toyota sold the same number of cars this year.  GM lost massive amounts of money, but toyota made a ton of money.  what does that tell you?

[debk]

I watched on foxnews this evening that GM and Toyota sold the same number of cars this year.  GM lost massive amounts of money, but toyota made a ton of money.  what does that tell you?

Ummmm.....the UAW and the super upper level management is making too much money and benefits at GM and while Toyota provides great benefits, they pay less and they expect people to work and do their jobs without taking 42 days off a year with pay, as union workers get.

Years ago(94-97) before I went into real estate, I worked for Talbot's which is now(and then) a Japanese owned company. They had strict rules, a fair wage...not great but fair, difficult to move up unless willing to take night shift, but extremely good health and dental insurance, matching retirement up to 6%, and available life insurance at a much lower rate than individual.....and I only worked 24 hours a week. I couldn't switch my work days. I either worked when I was supposed to or I took off without pay, or I took a personal day. I got 2 weeks (6 days) vacation a year. I think I was allowed one every couple of months, can't remember exactly. At that time, Talbot's had 6000+ employees. All part timers had the same benefits. Full timers didn't have to pay for their health/dental insurance, and they were able to get their families the health insurance at a much reduced rate if they wanted to pay for it.

[onthedge]

I'm pushing for all tax payers to go to Washington and ask for a bail-out, we are broke and need help to fix it.   

[Duke Nukum]

I'm pushing for all tax payers to go to Washington and ask for a bail-out, we are broke and need help to fix it.   

I called my congresswoman the other day and asked for a $1 billion bailout.  It's a lot cheaper than the financials, the big 3, and the weasly liberal states that want billions.  I even have a plan on how to pay for it.

[RightCoast]

Hell no.

[Lord Undies]

A "bailout" is a temporary bridge to the next cliff.  It's pointless.

[Chris]

I don't think crashing and burning is a good thing for the domestic auto industry, but the idea of a bailout is too much like rewarding poor business decisions which is what this all boils down to.  IMHO, the most Congress should do is give them favorable treatment in some sort of bankruptcy situation.  Hitting bottom and all that AA stuff. 

GM is too large.  GMC truck, Pontiac, Saturn... bye bye.  Ditto for Mercury and half of Lincoln and Cerebus/Chrysler.

[Baruch Menachem]

Academic anyway, as Bush is using TARP funds.   Not as they were intended.


Forget Bush Hitler.  We now have Bush-Lenin 

[Schadenfreude]

Academic anyway, as Bush is using TARP funds.   Not as they were intended.


Forget Bush Hitler.  We now have Bush-Lenin 

I never thought I would agree with DUmmies... Bush is a colossal failure.

[Eupher]

In a free-market system, not all companies are going to survive. It's called COMPETITION and COMPETITION means somebody wins and somebody loses.

Looks to me like the Big Three (now THAT'S a joke) have lost. That means they fold their tents and pack their bags.

On the other hand, restructuring can and should be very much in the cards. If they can't restructure under Chapters 11 or 13, then the alternative can only be Chapter 7. 

I was born in Detroit and grew up in the suburbs. I know first hand how entrenched the auto industry is in that part of the country, indeed throughout the Rust Belt.

Speaking of the Rust Belt, something strange happens when steel oxidizes.

After awhile, it goes away.

The U.S. auto industry has an opportunity here to clean house, restructure, and otherwise get its shit together. If it can't do that, either through stupid-assed corporate management decisions or a recalcitrant UAW/Teamsters union, then rusting away to nothing must be the answer in our current free-market economy.

Of course, the ****ing politicians know what's best for us.  Bail 'em out so the limp dicks can come back another day.

Asshats.

[Chris_]

They will never change their behavior. By bailing them out, we just delay the inevitable. I would sooner bail out mom and pop businesses than to give those schmucks one red cent.

Force them to adapt to the global economy or suffer the consequences.

Oh dear... I sound so tuff.  :-)

But you are 100% correct.  You gotta be cruel to be kind.

[DumbAss Tanker]

I am largely in favor of Chapter 11 for them, since without the power to restructure existing relationships with the UAW which it offers, I can't see a way ahead for them that does not involve putting 10 billion dollars down a rathole every three months for at least three years.  Yet, there is also the problem of cascading failure in not just the entire supporting heavy industry and support services, but also in the financial sector due to all the people and institutions they owe money to who would be screwed if their debt is 'reorganized.'  There are a lot of second and third order effects that people focused only on the UAW aren't taking into account.