Author Topic: Fair Tax (Read 4131 times)

The Village Idiot · « **on:** February 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM »

Quote from: Texacon on February 13, 2009, 06:59:42 AM

What do you find idiotic about the FairTax? I like the idea and I'm doing everything I can to get it instituted. Maybe I'm missing something?

KC

revenue neutral = no tax cut involved
still progressive = those who don't pay will still get 'prebate'
prebate = everyone gets a check from government

and when everyone gets a check from government, this country will crumble

oh and imagine a campaign where the Democrats promise to double everyone's 'prebate' checks and attack the GOP for not being a friend of the 'middle class and poor'.

Texacon · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2009, 09:23:14 PM »

Quote from: FGL on February 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM

revenue neutral = no tax cut involved
still progressive = those who don't pay will still get 'prebate'
prebate = everyone gets a check from government

and when everyone gets a check from government, this country will crumble

oh and imagine a campaign where the Democrats promise to double everyone's 'prebate' checks and attack the GOP for not being a friend of the 'middle class and poor'.

It was not designed to be a tax cut. It was designed to be neutral just a better way to pay your taxes.

Progressive? How do you figure they won't pay? It simply takes the tax from being based on your income to what you spend. It is in essence a sales tax ..... if you spend money you WILL pay the tax.

Yup, everyone will get the prebate. If the gov't can cut SS checks the prebate should be a breeze.

I would take the fair tax over what we have any day of the week. April 15th just becomes another day in the year. You will not be penalized for saving.

I think you should look at the fair tax a little harder.

KC

franksolich · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2009, 05:30:30 AM »

I used to be against the Fair Tax; I'm not sure exactly what changed my mind, but it took years and years. Now I'm strongly in favor of it.

However, I think it should simply be a flat tax, no special exemptions or anything.

ALL systems of taxation CAN work, but they get messed up when politicians tinker with them, desimplifying simple systems so as to accomodate their own whims and the special interests.

The primitives, for example, make much of the 90% top income tax rates of the late Eisenhower administration, early Kennedy administration.....as if some people actually paid 90% of their income to the government.

That never happened; nobody ever did. No one. Period. Ever.

And in fact, under this ostensibly onerous system, big money men like Joseph Kennedy paid a lower percentage in income taxes than did lower middle-class working people with families. And some paid no income taxes at all.

But as a general rule, I'm leery of changing taxes unless they're simple and apply across the board, no exemptions, not even for poverty.

Texacon · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2009, 07:21:27 AM »

Quote from: franksolich on February 17, 2009, 05:30:30 AM

I used to be against the Fair Tax; I'm not sure exactly what changed my mind, but it took years and years. Now I'm strongly in favor of it.

However, I think it should simply be a flat tax, no special exemptions or anything.

ALL systems of taxation CAN work, but they get messed up when politicians tinker with them, desimplifying simple systems so as to accomodate their own whims and the special interests.

The primitives, for example, make much of the 90% top income tax rates of the late Eisenhower administration, early Kennedy administration.....as if some people actually paid 90% of their income to the government.

That never happened; nobody ever did. No one. Period. Ever.

And in fact, under this ostensibly onerous system, big money men like Joseph Kennedy paid a lower percentage in income taxes than did lower middle-class working people with families. And some paid no income taxes at all.

But as a general rule, I'm leery of changing taxes unless they're simple and apply across the board, no exemptions, not even for poverty.

I think one of the biggest things I like about the FairTax is how ..... visible it is. In order to change the tax rate the entire nation is going to have to know about it and vote on it. There won't be tax tables and hidden codes. If you buy something you pay the tax.

As to the exemption for the poor .... I have no problem with it because in order for the system to remain revenue neutral there had to be a way to give those living in poverty the same tax breaks they get now. I thought the prebates were an awesome idea to solve that problem.

KC

franksolich · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:53:45 AM »

Quote from: Texacon on February 17, 2009, 07:21:27 AM

As to the exemption for the poor .... I have no problem with it because in order for the system to remain revenue neutral there had to be a way to give those living in poverty the same tax breaks they get now. I thought the prebates were an awesome idea to solve that problem.

On that, I must disagree, strenuously.

For the system to work, it has to apply to everyone, period.

The system would work ONLY if it applied to everybody, period.

By making exceptions and allowances for poor people, one bursts open the dam to all sorts of other tinkering, diluting and even destroying the fairness of the Fair Tax.

And, of course it is not unreasonable to suspect that under such a system that applies to everyone, period, there will be no one too poor to pay it.

Texacon · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »

Quote from: franksolich on February 17, 2009, 08:53:45 AM

On that, I must disagree, strenuously.

For the system to work, it has to apply to everyone, period.

The system would work ONLY if it applied to everybody, period.

By making exceptions and allowances for poor people, one bursts open the dam to all sorts of other tinkering, diluting and even destroying the fairness of the Fair Tax.

And, of course it is not unreasonable to suspect that under such a system that applies to everyone, period, there will be no one too poor to pay it.

I guess what I'm saying on that is that it isn't changing the tax only the means by which it is collected. It wouldn't have a chance in hell if those who are not paying tax now thought they were going to end up paying something.

On the upside of that thought is bringing all those into the fold who live outside the law. Illegals being paid cash, prostitutes, drug dealers, etc ...

I guess it is a trade off for me I'm willing to accept to get the FairTax implemented.

KC

The Village Idiot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2009, 01:36:00 PM »

if its not a tax cut, if its progressive and those who don't pay in still get something back.
Then its not worth the hassle. oh and the prebate thing should scare the hell out of people, the potential for political games is astounding

Texacon · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2009, 01:59:42 PM »

Quote from: FGL on February 17, 2009, 01:36:00 PM

if its not a tax cut, if its progressive and those who don't pay in still get something back.
Then its not worth the hassle. oh and the prebate thing should scare the hell out of people, the potential for political games is astounding

Well the thing is that it has never been billed as a tax cut. It has always been billed as a simpler way to pay/collect taxes. The added bonus is the transparency of the taxes you pay and the outlaws it would bring into the fold to pay their fair share of taxes.

The prebate simply offsets what they write off now in the form of EIC or other deductions.

It wouldn't change anything as far as how much someone pays unless that person stops purchasing. You would get a whole paycheck (for those who work for a company) then you would pay taxes when you decided to spend your money on NEW goods and services. Used items, no tax.

I like the plan and would love to see it implemented. This paying quarterly taxes is a pain in the butt with huge ramifications if you do it wrong.

Just my .02

KC

Eupher · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2009, 02:04:11 PM »

For precisely the reason that franksolich has mentioned, i.e., for the Fair Tax to work it must be kept simple with no tinkering for any reason whatsoever, it will never fly with Congress.

Congress would be out of a job if the tax code were rendered simple enough that an 8th-grader could understand it.

Can't have that - lawyers have to eat, too.

So we'll continue on with our present broke-dick tax code, understandable only to those who make it a profession, and we'll continue to pony up big money so that miscreants, cretins, and the rest of Congress can spend it like drunken sailors (no insult for sailors intended).

After all, what would happen to H&R Block? And all the closet tax preparers who compete with Block?

I think all this is fresh in my mind because just yesterday I got together the mass of data that our tax preparer will need to prepare our (my and Mrs. E's) tax return.

God, I love this country.

The Village Idiot · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2009, 02:12:40 PM »

take out the prebate.

just don't collect those taxes in the first place.

that would be simpler.

Texacon · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:15:05 AM »

Quote from: FGL on February 17, 2009, 02:12:40 PM

take out the prebate.

just don't collect those taxes in the first place.

that would be simpler.

That's why the prebate was put in in the first place. Trying to figure out who to collect taxes on medicine/food/medical/etc... was more difficult than giving everyone a prebate check. The prebate would be the same for rich and poor alike. It was to offset what the poor are given at present.

KC

PS who ever split this off, thanks.

Rebel · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:25:55 AM »

Quote from: FGL on February 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM

oh and imagine a campaign where the Democrats promise to double everyone's 'prebate' checks and attack the GOP for not being a friend of the 'middle class and poor'.

The prebate isn't a reward or a tax cut. It's only supposed to alleviate any taxable burden for items purchased up to the poverty line. It's in the legislation. If they were to double it, they'd have to show that the poverty rate had doubled.

Texacon · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:33:47 AM »

Quote from: Rebel on February 18, 2009, 08:25:55 AM

The prebate isn't a reward or a tax cut. It's only supposed to alleviate any taxable burden for items purchased up to the poverty line. It's in the legislation. If they were to double it, they'd have to show that the poverty rate had doubled.

And it would double for everyone. Not just the poor.

KC

Chris_ · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2009, 11:07:42 AM »

Quote from: Texacon on February 17, 2009, 11:24:22 AM

I guess what I'm saying on that is that it isn't changing the tax only the means by which it is collected. It wouldn't have a chance in hell if those who are not paying tax now thought they were going to end up paying something.

On the upside of that thought is bringing all those into the fold who live outside the law. Illegals being paid cash, prostitutes, drug dealers, etc ...

I guess it is a trade off for me I'm willing to accept to get the FairTax implemented.

KC

Hell, I am going to jump party lines, register as a democrat and never have to pay taxes again!

Rebel · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2009, 12:47:15 PM »

Quote from: Texacon on February 18, 2009, 10:33:47 AM

And it would double for everyone. Not just the poor.

KC

It couldn't without justification, I.e., showing that the poverty rate had doubled.

Texacon · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:42:45 PM »

Quote from: Rebel on February 18, 2009, 12:47:15 PM

It couldn't without justification, I.e., showing that the poverty rate had doubled.

I don't think it could go up just for the poor even then. I believe, and it's been awhile since I read it, that if the prebate goes up it goes up for everyone. This keeps the bottom tier from voting in pay increases.

KC

Texacon · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:43:29 PM »

Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 18, 2009, 11:07:42 AM

Hell, I am going to jump party lines, register as a democrat and never have to pay taxes again!

Which can be done as long as you don't spend more than $600/month.

KC

Rebel · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:52:14 PM »

Quote from: Texacon on February 18, 2009, 01:42:45 PM

I don't think it could go up just for the poor even then. I believe, and it's been awhile since I read it, that if the prebate goes up it goes up for everyone. This keeps the bottom tier from voting in pay increases.

KC

It is for everyone. That can't change per the legislation. I'm just saying the prebate is tied to the poverty level.

Texacon · « **Reply #18 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Rebel on February 18, 2009, 01:52:14 PM

It is for everyone. That can't change per the legislation. I'm just saying the prebate is tied to the poverty level.

Oh, right. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

For those that have a problem with the poor getting the prebate; They are getting it now and it is much more complicated. Some have figured out how to game the system and are getting far more than others. The prebate would/should put a stop to that because it is paid up front and that is that. Those who are filing at the end of the year and playing games won't be able to do that anymore.

KC

InfamousAndy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2009, 10:13:08 AM »

The Fair Tax has some protection from Congressed based on its implementation - a constitutional Amendment. Congress would need 3/4s of the states to ratify changes

GOP Congress · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:17:02 AM »

First let's be clear. The ONLY reason that taxation is an issue is NOT to collect revenue, but to control people. In general, the democrats want higher taxation RATES so they can control more people. That is why they are so hip to the "maximum tax" law. They want the "spread the wealth" concept, fully knowing (in my opinion) that in following that concept, they are essentially stifling the drive of our main achievers.

But is it "fair"? HELL no! It penalizes achievement, discourages individual initiative, and creates a permanent class that is more dependent on the good graces of government. When the rate is raised at the upper level, there is no incentive to make more money; hence no incentive to invest and create new jobs.

I have been advocating a modified flat tax for the longest time. In short, the flat tax would be an across the board 12.8% tax for federal taxes. This amount would TRIPLE current tax receipts (and in this economy, possibly QUADRUPLE). However, this devolves the control of the economy, as it should, from the government to the private sector.

The democrats would never go for that, though, as they lose control of the money.

The "modified" part is that we set the 12.8% at $$34,880 and higher. Pragmatically, there would be no salaries or total income between $34,880 and $40,000. Keep in mind that there would be a hell of a lot of new millionaires and billionaires, but that's a good thing. There certainly wouldn't be any more poor people.

News:

Author Topic: Fair Tax (Read 4131 times)