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Interests => Religious Discussions => Christian Fellowship => Topic started by: Doc on March 26, 2010, 02:06:56 PM

Title: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 26, 2010, 02:06:56 PM
Back a month or so ago, I initiated a discussion in this forum on the "Gnostic Gospels", which turned out to be a great topic, but fostered several angry, debative posts from other Christians on the board, as well as a number of rather pointed PM's which, after the name calling stopped, generally asked "what kind of a Christian are you?"

I'm going to tell you the answer to that question, and explain WHY, over the years I've gotten to this point in my faith, and what I see as the cause.  This is a personal testimony, and therefore not open to debate (Mrs Smith please take note), however, please feel free to discuss the substance of the reasons why I have found myself in this position, their validity, and your personal experiences in your particular churches.......

The answer to the "What kind...." question is, that I consider myself to be a "Gnostic Christian".......not because I believe that I have any more "knowledge" than any other Christian, and not because that I consider the "Gnostic Gospels" as valid, special, or anything other than Christian curiosities........I'm a Gnostic Christian because I believe, as the ancient Gnostic's believed, that ones relationship with God (and Christ) is vested in ones personal relationship with Him, and not through the conduit of an organized church  I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......

My wife and I DO attend church regularly, several of them, and over our lives we have attended thousands of them, ranging from "Mass" at St. Peter's in the Vatican......all the way to a service in a humble dirt cave in upper Egypt, attended by half a dozen Coptic Christians (with an interpreter).  I found the latter to be the most inspiring.....

I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, and my wife, in the Christian Church (both in the same small town), and during our youth, we found that fellowship experience to be a rewarding and satisfying one.......however over the years (fifty or so), "our" churches, as well as the hundreds of others that we attended around the country, changed......it was subtle at first, and then seemed to accelerate over the past two decades or so.....until now, I can't recognize the "church" of my youth, its priorities and fellowship, and my wife's church is even worse.......

There have always been "splinter" church groups in America, which held unusual methods of worship, and differing levels of "passion", but those are not my concern.......my concern are the "mainstream" denominations, to which the majority of we Christians belong.

Hence the "Crisis in American Christendom........."

For the sake of discussion, I will express the levels of "devotion/direction" in American Christian churches as a simple continuum......an arithmetic continuum from "0" to "10".  The church of my youth (and my wife) I will establish as a "5", or right in the middle.  The middle (5) is a church that is centered on teaching the Gospels, and advancing ones Christian experience and knowledge through prayer and fellowship.......never losing sight of its primary mission, which is the spiritual health of its members......no other priorities exist in a "5" church.

My wife's church, has moved from a "5" to a "1"........interestingly this church is a one-room country church, in the middle of nowhere in rural Missouri farm country that has met in the same building since 1892......one would think that this church would remain anchored in its ecumenical roots, and remain focused, but alas, no.  Around 1980 this church became affiliated with a national organization known as "The Disciples of Christ"....and that was when the changes began.  Over the years, The "Disciples of Christ" (at the national and state level) began taking an interest in liberal political causes, and did so on an international level as well.  We knew that something was wrong, because the congregation seemed no longer focused on the spiritual nature of church membership, but they seemed to be attending services just to "see and be seen", not worship.......services became little different than the Saturday night dinners at the country club after a round of golf.......they were "social" and not "spiritual".

All of a sudden, about two years ago our pastor left suddenly........and since he and I were close, we had a long discussion that absolutely shocked both of us.......he told us that he is required to attend "developmental pastoral conferences" monthly with the state leadership, and based on what the leaders were telling him that he must preach and support, he could no longer continue to be associated with the organization.  

He was told that he must "embrace homosexuality" as an acceptable lifestyle, and attended Bible study workshops where the leadership told the pastors that they should teach that "Its OK to believe, and teach that Mary, the mother of Christ, was not a virgin, and that there was no real evidence that the resurrection actually happened, and that his church should be "open and accepting" to members who held divergent views on Gospel matters".  We therefore did a little research on our own, and discovered that that the "mission offerings" that were being collected in our offering plates, were being used to support despotic African rebels, with communist connections that were at the very least questionable, and at worst genocidal.

We began looking for a new "church home", and looked at a number of other denominations, including the Southern Baptist church of my youth.  We found the same "country club" attitude, coupled with a very real interest in all things political, whether at the local or national level......they were very active in conservative politics, and very inactive in the spiritual health of their members.......oh, they went through the "motions", but there was no passion in their devotion......only in their politics.  I would rate them a "3"........

On the higher numbers of the numerical continuum, the "7's, 8's, and 9's, we found what I will referr to (for want of a better term) the "fundamentalists"........now these denominations were not into "faith healing", or "handling serpents", but these churches were so "hidebound" in the absolutes of scriptural interpretation that they refused to allow any discussion, conversation, or deviation whatsoever in THEIR version of Christianity, that they also completely lost sight of the fellowship and spiritual health of the members.  There was no "teaching" in their discussions of the life and message of Christ, they were essentially dictatorships, which told the members exactly how they should conduct each and every aspect of their lives, and any deviation was generally met with scorn, or ostracism...........

Then there are the Catholics.......now I have, as I have stated in the past.......no axe to grind with Catholicism, but whenever we've attended Mass, and the priest invokes the Virgin and the Saints......there has always been a immediate vision form in my mind......of me, standing at the foot of a mountain, with its summit enshrouded in clouds.....when a voice, so loud that the ground shakes beneath my feet......states...."Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me......."  I don't say this to insult Catholics, their ritual or dogma, just that this is my reaction to their services, and further appears to not be my thing..........

So, at least from our personal perspective, there appears to be a crisis in American Christendom.......we are experiencing Churches that have moved away from their roots, whether to appear "modern", "hip", "inclusive", or whatever, and we are having difficulty determining whether these churches are doing this to thwart declining membership, increase revenues, or just because the "spirit" is no longer in them.......the long and short of it is.....we are not finding any "5's" any longer.......

We'll continue our quest, but until we find a fellowship that stands behind its Gospel-based spiritual principles, we will be known as "Gnostic Christians" wandering in the proverbrial "wilderness"......

doc

Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: thundley4 on March 26, 2010, 02:20:58 PM
Quote
I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"

:agree:






Except I don't attend church.

Quote
Matthew 6:5-6
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: USA4ME on March 26, 2010, 03:39:31 PM
I appreciated reading what you wrote.

What I would bring up is that the word translated "church" is the Greek word "ekklesia" which means "called out."  What were they called out of?  They were called out of the world (carnal) into the light (Christ).

In Matt 16: 13-18, upon Peter's confession that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, Jesus said that upon that rock (Peter's confession that Christ is Lord) he would build his church.  In the Book of Acts, the apostles went around teaching the gospel, and upon converting people to Christianity, established churches (groups of the "called out" in a local area) where they went in order for them to join hands for a common work.

My point would be this:  If attendance to a church was unnecessary, then the Apostles wasted of lot of time establishing them, and the Spirit of God wasted time providing commandments, Apostolic examples, and necessary inferences for us to study and follow in order to conduct the work and worship of the church as God would have it.

.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on March 26, 2010, 04:17:24 PM
It just seems one of the ever-present double-edged swords and presents nothing unique.

Traditional churches seem stagnant. Unresponsive. More interested in maintaining a status quo than...whatever the ill-of-the-day may be.

Non-traditionalism screams of dynamism. Newness. Eagerness.

Still...

Tradition is a foundation, a bulwark and a hedge against impurity. It is time-tested.

Novelty for novelty's sake leads people astray (witness the so-called "progressives"...lemmings make tremendous progress too, sometimes covering tens of miles in a day). An untried poultice can kill just as easily as cure.


other great moral cunumdrums:


Is man fated or does he have freewill?

Is grace the sole criteria for salvation or is man beholden to standards of conduct?

Can a loving God permit evil?

Can you serve white wine with red fish?


Maybe avoiding the extremes is the issue.

Or can moderation be taken to an extreme as well?
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 26, 2010, 04:21:36 PM
My point would be this:  If attendance to a church was unnecessary, then the Apostles wasted of lot of time establishing them, and the Spirit of God wasted time providing commandments, Apostolic examples, and necessary inferences for us to study and follow in order to conduct the work and worship of the church as God would have it.


I also appreciate your response........to which I would ask......Is it not a far greater sin to attend to an apostasy, than hold the faith.......so long as that faith is true?

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 05:03:37 PM
Back a month or so ago, I initiated a discussion in this forum on the "Gnostic Gospels", which turned out to be a great topic, but fostered several angry, debative posts from other Christians on the board, as well as a number of rather pointed PM's which, after the name calling stopped, generally asked "what kind of a Christian are you?"

I'm going to tell you the answer to that question, and explain WHY, over the years I've gotten to this point in my faith, and what I see as the cause.  This is a personal testimony, and therefore not open to debate (Mrs Smith please take note), however, please feel free to discuss the substance of the reasons why I have found myself in this position, their validity, and your personal experiences in your particular churches.......

The answer to the "What kind...." question is, that I consider myself to be a "Gnostic Christian".......not because I believe that I have any more "knowledge" than any other Christian, and not because that I consider the "Gnostic Gospels" as valid, special, or anything other than Christian curiosities........I'm a Gnostic Christian because I believe, as the ancient Gnostic's believed, that ones relationship with God (and Christ) is vested in ones personal relationship with Him, and not through the conduit of an organized church  I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......
  Christianity IS a personal relationship with God, no relationship (no Holy Spirit), no Christian.  However, the rest of your complaints about the churches in your area are exactly why you should belong to one.  Without a conservative, true-Christian base, churches go astray.

My wife and I DO attend church regularly, several of them, and over our lives we have attended thousands of them, ranging from "Mass" at St. Peter's in the Vatican......all the way to a service in a humble dirt cave in upper Egypt, attended by half a dozen Coptic Christians (with an interpreter).  I found the latter to be the most inspiring.....

I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, and my wife, in the Christian Church (both in the same small town), and during our youth, we found that fellowship experience to be a rewarding and satisfying one.......however over the years (fifty or so), "our" churches, as well as the hundreds of others that we attended around the country, changed......it was subtle at first, and then seemed to accelerate over the past two decades or so.....until now, I can't recognize the "church" of my youth, its priorities and fellowship, and my wife's church is even worse.......

There have always been "splinter" church groups in America, which held unusual methods of worship, and differing levels of "passion", but those are not my concern.......my concern are the "mainstream" denominations, to which the majority of we Christians belong.

Hence the "Crisis in American Christendom........."

For the sake of discussion, I will express the levels of "devotion/direction" in American Christian churches as a simple continuum......an arithmetic continuum from "0" to "10".  The church of my youth (and my wife) I will establish as a "5", or right in the middle.  The middle (5) is a church that is centered on teaching the Gospels, and advancing ones Christian experience and knowledge through prayer and fellowship.......never losing sight of its primary mission, which is the spiritual health of its members......no other priorities exist in a "5" church.

My wife's church, has moved from a "5" to a "1"........interestingly this church is a one-room country church, in the middle of nowhere in rural Missouri farm country that has met in the same building since 1892......one would think that this church would remain anchored in its ecumenical roots, and remain focused, but alas, no.  Around 1980 this church became affiliated with a national organization known as "The Disciples of Christ"....and that was when the changes began.  Over the years, The "Disciples of Christ" (at the national and state level) began taking an interest in liberal political causes, and did so on an international level as well.  We knew that something was wrong, because the congregation seemed no longer focused on the spiritual nature of church membership, but they seemed to be attending services just to "see and be seen", not worship.......services became little different than the Saturday night dinners at the country club after a round of golf.......they were "social" and not "spiritual".

All of a sudden, about two years ago our pastor left suddenly........and since he and I were close, we had a long discussion that absolutely shocked both of us.......he told us that he is required to attend "developmental pastoral conferences" monthly with the state leadership, and based on what the leaders were telling him that he must preach and support, he could no longer continue to be associated with the organization.  

He was told that he must "embrace homosexuality" as an acceptable lifestyle, and attended Bible study workshops where the leadership told the pastors that they should teach that "Its OK to believe, and teach that Mary, the mother of Christ, was not a virgin, and that there was no real evidence that the resurrection actually happened, and that his church should be "open and accepting" to members who held divergent views on Gospel matters".  We therefore did a little research on our own, and discovered that that the "mission offerings" that were being collected in our offering plates, were being used to support despotic African rebels, with communist connections that were at the very least questionable, and at worst genocidal.
We found this in our local American Baptist church...which is why our church is now Independent Baptist.

We began looking for a new "church home", and looked at a number of other denominations, including the Southern Baptist church of my youth.  We found the same "country club" attitude, coupled with a very real interest in all things political, whether at the local or national level......they were very active in conservative politics, and very inactive in the spiritual health of their members.......oh, they went through the "motions", but there was no passion in their devotion......only in their politics.  I would rate them a "3"........

On the higher numbers of the numerical continuum, the "7's, 8's, and 9's, we found what I will referr to (for want of a better term) the "fundamentalists"........now these denominations were not into "faith healing", or "handling serpents", but these churches were so "hidebound" in the absolutes of scriptural interpretation that they refused to allow any discussion, conversation, or deviation whatsoever in THEIR version of Christianity, that they also completely lost sight of the fellowship and spiritual health of the members.  There was no "teaching" in their discussions of the life and message of Christ, they were essentially dictatorships, which told the members exactly how they should conduct each and every aspect of their lives, and any deviation was generally met with scorn, or ostracism...........
  I've never seen this.  Questions and discussions are always welcome.  However, bringing heresy into the church and trying to push it as equal to scripture...as with the Gnostic Gospels...that wouldn't go.  Of course, that doesn't make it a dictatorship, it makes it a church dedicated to truth.

Then there are the Catholics.......now I have, as I have stated in the past.......no axe to grind with Catholicism, but whenever we've attended Mass, and the priest invokes the Virgin and the Saints......there has always been a immediate vision form in my mind......of me, standing at the foot of a mountain, with its summit enshrouded in clouds.....when a voice, so loud that the ground shakes beneath my feet......states...."Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me......."  I don't say this to insult Catholics, their ritual or dogma, just that this is my reaction to their services, and further appears to not be my thing..........

So, at least from our personal perspective, there appears to be a crisis in American Christendom.......we are experiencing Churches that have moved away from their roots, whether to appear "modern", "hip", "inclusive", or whatever, and we are having difficulty determining whether these churches are doing this to thwart declining membership, increase revenues, or just because the "spirit" is no longer in them.......the long and short of it is.....we are not finding any "5's" any longer.......

We'll continue our quest, but until we find a fellowship that stands behind its Gospel-based spiritual principles, we will be known as "Gnostic Christians" wandering in the proverbrial "wilderness"......

doc


You may enjoy the book, "Exodus," by Dave Shiflett

Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: USA4ME on March 26, 2010, 05:05:10 PM
I also appreciate your response........to which I would ask......Is it not a far greater sin to attend to an apostasy, than hold ones own faith.......so long as that faith is true?

doc

I'm not sure what you mean by "ones faith."

Jude 3 says - "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

I would say if "ones faith" is the same as "the faith" of which "ye should earnestly contend," then it would be OK.

.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 05:06:49 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "ones faith."

Jude 3 says - "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

I would say if "ones faith" is the same as "the faith" of which "ye should earnestly contend," then it would be OK.

.


Edited for clarity......

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 05:16:56 PM
It just seems one of the ever-present double-edged swords and presents nothing unique.

Traditional churches seem stagnant. Unresponsive. More interested in maintaining a status quo than...whatever the ill-of-the-day may be.

Non-traditionalism screams of dynamism. Newness. Eagerness.

Still...

Tradition is a foundation, a bulwark and a hedge against impurity. It is time-tested.

Novelty for novelty's sake leads people astray (witness the so-called "progressives"...lemmings make tremendous progress too, sometimes covering tens of miles in a day). An untried poultice can kill just as easily as cure.


other great moral cunumdrums:


Is man fated or does he have freewill?  God's foreknowledge of our choices does not make them any less ours.

Is grace the sole criteria for salvation or is man beholden to standards of conduct?  If a man is under grace, he will wish to live up to the standards of conduct.  As none of us is perfect, he will fail.  Grace is the only thing that can save.

Can a loving God permit evil?   Can mankind ever see enough of the big picture to judge what God should not permit?

Can you serve white wine with red fish?    Can, shouldn't


Maybe avoiding the extremes is the issue.

Or can moderation be taken to an extreme as well?  Is that an oxymoron?
:rotf:
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 05:20:09 PM
  Christianity IS a personal relationship with God, no relationship (no Holy Spirit), no Christian.  However, the rest of your complaints about the churches in your area are exactly why you should belong to one.  Without a conservative, true-Christian base, churches go astray.
 

Couldn't resist, I see......

Perhaps you missed this part........

Quote
This is a personal testimony, and therefore not open to debate (Mrs Smith please take note),

However, just to humor you.....I don't see it as my job to grab an entire church by the proverbrial horns, and drag it back to the "truth".......I don't remember Christ demanding such either.........

My remarks are not "complaints" they are observations, and if you have difficulty with the distinction, some self-examination might be in order.....

It is easy for you to sit smugly in your ecumenical cocoon, and throw rocks at those of us who express differences of opinion, and highlight problems facing Christians today......I'm going to be presumptious here.......but I think that just "might" be considered hypocracy.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 05:33:31 PM
Couldn't resist, I see......

Perhaps you missed this part........

However, just to humor you.....I don't see it as my job to grab an entire church by the proverbrial horns, and drag it back to the "truth".......I don't remember Christ demanding such either.........

My remarks are not "complaints" they are observations, and if you have difficulty with the distinction, some self-examination might be in order.....

It is easy for you to sit smugly in your ecumenical cocoon, and throw rocks at those of us who express differences of opinion, and highlight problems facing Christians today......I'm going to be presumptious here.......but I think that just "might" be considered hypocracy.....

doc
Hypocrisy?  I doubt that partial agreement/partial disagreement with you counts as hypocrisy.  And I didn't debate the things you believe aren't debatable.  

As for what I did say, you really probably would enjoy the book...and we really are supposed to study enough to know untruth & heresy...and reject it.  I think we can all agree that discussion and debate on points of truth are one thing, acceptance of untruth as truth is something completely different.


Or perhaps you thought I should stay out of your thread because I disagree with you on numerous points?   :-)
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 05:57:35 PM
 

As for what I did say, you really probably would enjoy the book...and we really are supposed to study enough to know untruth & heresy...and reject it.  I think we can all agree that discussion and debate on points of truth are one thing, acceptance of untruth as truth is something completely different.


I'll certainly try the book, thank you.........and the only point of disagreement that we seem to  have is that (I'm going to try to say this as nicely as possible)  YOU don't get to define what is truth, and what is untruth.......or what is "heresy" and what is not.......

There are many variations and differences in Christian dogma.......we are here to discuss them all, if we wish, without (hopefully) making anyone holding views that differ from our own uncomfortable......the "Fellowship" part of the forum title......the ultimate goal being learning......even if we don't agree.

And no, it was not my hope that you would refrain from participation in the thread, it was my hope that you would offer your resources and experiences to suggest a solution to the problem, not challenge my view of it because the fact that the problem exists is unchallengable, and you know it......further, if we don't do something, it is coming to a church near you......even yours......

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 26, 2010, 06:20:37 PM
Doc...I read your initial post with great interest and also understanding. As it seems Thundley also agrees.

As a child, I lived in W DesMoines, IA, I attended the Episcopal Church (High Episcopal)...faithfully every Sunday, forced to go to Sunday School during part of the Mass (I hated Sunday School) until I was confirmed in 6th or 7th grade and then didn't have to go anymore, was very active in Youth Group.

I loved my Church, my priest, the ritualism of my religion.

My world went to hell in seconds in the middle of my 8th grade year, with the death of my mother in a car accident. It happened on the Tri-State Tollway between Gary IN and Chicago. My priest just happened to have flown into Chicago that night for a conference and saw it on the local news....he was at the hospital the next day once it was established that my family were part of his parish. He missed his conference traveling back and forth between the ICU's in two different hospitals trying to help the hospital staff find our extended families and waiting until my dad's parents got there from Ohio, and helping to get my mother's body to her hometown. He was there for several days helping out. I remember him telling me at one point that there was no explanation for what happened but that I had to remember it was part of God's plan and we had no control over the plan.

Once I got back home, I continued going to my church until that summer. My dad remarried a divorced woman, and was excommunicated from the Church. We moved to Illinois, and I no longer attended church. My beloved Church had kicked us out. It was "us" because I could not go to church on my own. There were many many reasons....one of which, Saturday night was my dad's worst night for drinking and beating....Sundays were for hiding in my room.

Then I went off to college. To a campus that was 85% Catholic, 5% Jewish and 5% other religions, and 5% of no religion.

I went to the Newman Center with my friends. We were there at midnight on Saturday night...a "packed house" of not very sober people....or we were there on Sunday at noon or at 5pm. I was there every week. Then I started going on Wednesdays at noon....just cause it made me feel better.

I was going to convert, but never got around to it. When I moved to Omaha, after graduation, I continued going to the Catholic Church....it was easy.

However, I married an Episcopalian. My priest from WDM even came to Omaha and married us!

I was again, back in the Episcopal Church. Both of my children were christened and confirmed in the Church.

We were very active in a church, that I had real issues with. The Homilies....instead of being about the Gospel and the readings of the day, were about how the church needed money to build this, redo that, to put more stained glass in the sanctuary. Give, give and give more. Sunday was about what were the other ladies wearing, what were the children wearing. What happened to....God doesn't care what you wear, God just cares that you show up and believe in Him?

Then I got a divorce. My ex's attorney was/is a "pillar" of the church. The fact that the way he does business is to lie and cheat...hey, no problem. (that's not me being bitter....that's truth, but not for this topic). There was no recriminations towards my ex...in fact, the "new" wife was welcomed into the Altar Guild! Let's all be a happy family! Uh...no. Let's not and say we did.

I don't want to hear about money and finances for one hour a week. I don't want to think about money and finances for one hour a week. For that one hour, I want to be with God - in His House - and receive the Holy Sacrements and reaffirm that with those Sacrements, God is with me all the rest of the time....not just when I go to His House.

About 17 years ago, I met M. Grew up attending Catholic elementary and Jesuit prep school. I was back to attending the Catholic Church, though not on a regular basis.

I have gone to Mass in the NE, the midwest, the South. I have been to the Vatican, attended Mass at the Basilica in Florence, a renewed Church in Budapest now that communism is no more, in Ireland. The commonality among all of them was what I love the most...the ritualism of worship. The faith that is just a presence among the faithful. The knowledge that I am in God's house.

As of about 8 weeks ago, I as a confirmed Episcopalian am now welcomed into the Catholic Church to receive the Sacraments, as per the Pope. As I told the priest....at least now I can legally do what I have been doing for years. I figured it was between me and God, that it was important for me to receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion. The priest told me I had a point.....  (The Catholic Church is welcoming all the Episcopalians that are leaving the religion because of the appointment of a practicing gay Bishop in MA)

But, to your point Doc and Thundley....one does not have to be in God's house to worship God, to talk to God, to hear Him answer....

One must "tune in" to God. One does not have to be taught to hear God....one must be willing to hear God. There's a difference. Nor does it have to be under the guise of a formal religion or in a church.

I can testify that God shows up where you least expect Him....at the foot of my hospital bed, in the living room of a friend's house at 5:30 in the morning. He shows up when you need him the most.

If you know the "poem" Footprints....it describes it best. "When there were only one set of footprints in the sand, it was because He was there to carry me."

There is no one Church that is better than another....nor one religion that is better than another.

Some of the most devout believers in God that I know, are Jewish. I recognize that may offend some here, but just because they do not believe exactly as someone else does....does not make them any less religious or not as close to God.

The most important...most important....point is that God is just there. He doesn't walk away because one doesn't go to church or belong to a formal religion. He doesn't walk away because one person doesn't pray the same as a next. He doesn't walk away because ones practice of their beliefs are different from another.

He's just there.

I think if more people would realize that fact....we'd be a whole lot better off.

I know that this is rambling....but I hope I have said it well enough that some may understand.....
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 06:39:11 PM
I'll certainly try the book, thank you.........and the only point of disagreement that we seem to  have is that (I'm going to try to say this as nicely as possible)  YOU don't get to define what is truth, and what is untruth.......or what is "heresy" and what is not.......

There are many variations and differences in Christian dogma.......we are here to discuss them all, if we wish, without (hopefully) making anyone holding views that differ from our own uncomfortable......the "Fellowship" part of the forum title......the ultimate goal being learning......even if we don't agree.

And no, it was not my hope that you would refrain from participation in the thread, it was my hope that you would offer your resources and experiences to suggest a solution to the problem, not challenge my view of it because the fact that the problem exists is unchallengable, and you know it......further, if we don't do something, it is coming to a church near you......even yours......

doc
The problem does exist, therefore my recommendation of the book.  However, as to Christian dogma...there are many main points agreed upon by all true Christians.  There are a few points of contention...most really minor...that have the power to split up churches.  Beyond that, any difference in dogma can take one outside Christianity.  It is not "my" truth or "my" heresy...it is simply that some things are true while many more are not.  We MUST distinguish the difference.  If we do not, we end up exactly as the churches you've attended...losing the true faith to follow some social or worldly dogma.

If a person advocates and teaches things that disagree with basic Christian dogma, well, they may as well join one of those liberal or faith-healing churches you disdain.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 07:12:13 PM
The problem does exist, therefore my recommendation of the book.  However, as to Christian dogma...there are many main points agreed upon by all true Christians.  There are a few points of contention...most really minor...that have the power to split up churches.  Beyond that, any difference in dogma can take one outside Christianity.  It is not "my" truth or "my" heresy...it is simply that some things are true while many more are not.  We MUST distinguish the difference.  If we do not, we end up exactly as the churches you've attended...losing the true faith to follow some social or worldly dogma.

If a person advocates and teaches things that disagree with basic Christian dogma, well, they may as well join one of those liberal or faith-healing churches you disdain.

90% agreed.....I think that we have a simple difference in interest.....my intrests go well beyond the "church" as we see it today.....I have attempted in these threads to encourage any Christians that are even remotely interested to delve further into the rich history and culture of both Christianity, and its roots in the Holy Land, but also the history  and evolutionary beliefs of the Jewish people upon which our religion is founded......these things will never be taught in a "church", and must be sought......by learning them, they can greatly enrich ones Christian experience.......

As I mentioned in one of the threads, I spent time in Israel studing with Rabbinical scholars.....not to become a Jew, but to understand Christ's life, and the culture from whence he came.......armed with that understanding, I can see his words in Biblical text through "different eyes".....not as a challenge to faith, but bringing me closer to understanding the man, what he accomplished, and the live that he led as a first-century Jew.......

I point out Biblical inconsistancies in order to encourage people to "think" about the Scripture, and its history, not to challenge its validity.....this is a method that I used during my brief tenure as a Physics professor.....it worked well in that discipline, I thought I'd try it here.....

There is no such thing as too much knowledge.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 07:45:09 PM
90% agreed.....I think that we have a simple difference in interest.....my intrests go well beyond the "church" as we see it today.....I have attempted in these threads to encourage any Christians that are even remotely interested to delve further into the rich history and culture of both Christianity, and its roots in the Holy Land, but also the history  and evolutionary beliefs of the Jewish people upon which our religion is founded......these things will never be taught in a "church", and must be sought......by learning them, they can greatly enrich ones Christian experience.......

As I mentioned in one of the threads, I spent time in Israel studing with Rabbinical scholars.....not to become a Jew, but to understand Christ's life, and the culture from whence he came.......armed with that understanding, I can see his words in Biblical text through "different eyes".....not as a challenge to faith, but bringing me closer to understanding the man, what he accomplished, and the live that he led as a first-century Jew.......

I point out Biblical inconsistancies in order to encourage people to "think" about the Scripture, and its history, not to challenge its validity.....this is a method that I used during my brief tenure as a Physics professor.....it worked well in that discipline, I thought I'd try it here.....

There is no such thing as too much knowledge.....

doc
Then we do agree...with the difference that many truly conservatives churches do teach the history and culture of different Old Testament times and the time of Christ.  In fact, in my short span of Christian studies, I've seen and taken classes in these subjects, heard them discussed in Sunday School, and my current pastor has recommended different studies into culture...though with the caveat that his favorite author for culture (whose name I can't recall) has theological problems.  He did not warn us against reading and studying those reference manuals (which are available in our library), but he did warn us to have a care for the truth while we study.  I don't know what's wrong with your churches, but I can assure you that there are good, solid, growing, conservative churches that are all the things you despair to find.  


Oh, and the more important point that incorrect knowledge is worse than too little...
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:04:12 PM

Oh, and the more important point that incorrect knowledge is worse than too little...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.....all knowledge has value, even when incorrect, or flawed.....if nothing else, it teaches us not to repeat the same mistakes.....which is why I enjoy studying the Gnostic Gospels.....I don't consider them apostasy....just a differing view, and the vast majority of the texts actually agree with the canon, so what is the danger?  You sift the wheat from the chaff based on evidence, not ideology......any pastor that has the audacity to suggest to me that I shouldn't read any book for fear of my immortal soul, just lost a parishioner.....I'm not naive, nor stupid.....

I'm not silly enough to think that I will be eternally damned for reading a "book" even though it might disagree with Scriptures.....hell, I've read Mien Kampf......so I guess, its all over for me anyway.....so I might as well enjoy myself....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on that.....all knowledge has value, even when incorrect, or flawed.....if nothing else, it teaches us not to repeat the same mistakes.....which is why I enjoy studying the Gnostic Gospels.....I don't consider them apostasy....just a differing view, and the vast majority of the texts actually agree with the canon, so what is the danger?  You sift the wheat from the chaff based on evidence, not ideology......any pastor that has the audacity to suggest to me that I shouldn't read any book for fear of my immortal soul, just lost a parishioner.....I'm not naive, nor stupid.....

I'm not silly enough to think that I will be eternally damned for reading a "book" even though it might disagree with Scriptures.....hell, I've read Mien Kampf......so I guess, its all over for me anyway.....so I might as well enjoy myself....

doc
::)  Damnation is something we choose by rejecting Christ...and that's the ONLY way to manage it.

Knowing something untrue...when you know is it untrue...is fine.  It's the "not knowing" what's untrue that is a problem.  Just as those liberal churches "KNOW" that homosexual behavior is not really a sin, and Christ came to heal the physically sick and not the spiritually sick, and that all fundies are "so hidebound in the absolutes of scriptural interpretation that they refused to allow any discussion, conversation, or deviation whatsoever in THEIR version of Christianity."  There is absolutely no point to knowledge without the discernment between truth and untruth.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:15:30 PM
Knowing something untrue...when you know is it untrue...is fine.  It's the "not knowing" what's untrue that is a problem.  Just as those liberal churches "KNOW" that homosexual behavior is not really a sin, and Christ came to heal the physically sick and not the spiritually sick, and that all fundies are "so hidebound in the absolutes of scriptural interpretation that they refused to allow any discussion, conversation, or deviation whatsoever in THEIR version of Christianity."  There is absolutely no point to knowledge without the discernment between truth and untruth.

And you will never know that unless you actually read it, digest it, and understand it, right?

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ardentconservative on March 26, 2010, 08:19:56 PM
TVDOC, I have been a member of Conservative Cave for several years but haven't posted much.  But I read you post with intrest, and though I agree that there is a crisis in Christiandom, there were some things that you said that I didn't understand what you meant. So being a Southern Baptist Conservative Pastor for 33 years I would like to converse with you on some of the points that you made.  First

I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.  If you mean by that that salvation is based upon our acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ through repentant faith, and the person of Christ being that is is God and man in one person; and that the work of Christ is that he died on the cross for our sins, then I agree.  The Bible is clear that faith is in a person, the person of Christ; and the salvation comes through is death on the cross.  

never losing sight of its primary mission, which is the spiritual health of its members......


I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Chruch is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Chruch is a vital mission of the Chruch because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.    

.......services became little different than the Saturday night dinners at the country club after a round of golf.......they were "social" and not "spiritual".

Here I wonder if there is not a dichotomy that many people make between the secular and the spritual.  that is that ones spiritual life is sperate and distinct from one's social/secular life.  I believe that to be a false dichotomy.  I believe that in the Bible that we have a spiritual responsiblty to save the lost and disciple the save; and that we have a secular/social responsibility to "redeem the time" in the society in which we live.  The Bible teaches that Christians have a social/secular responsibiliy that we redeem the time by being involved in secular activities[that incluces politics] that can impact our society for good.  One of the reasons that our nation is in the mess it is in is that Christians have not been involved in the political arena so that they bring the influence of their Christian convictions into the political arena so as to be able to have the effect of the changes that Christian values bring.

I would type more but every time I type something it hides below the Post reply box and I have to keep scrolling down to see what I have typed.  So I will simply stop with this.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 08:22:57 PM
And you will never know that unless you actually read it, digest it, and understand it, right?

doc

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125165061&ps=cprs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124572693&ps=rs

Someone that is grounded in the true foundations of Christianity (a fairly rare person these days) could read either of these books are come away with knowledge useful for poking holes in the untrue beliefs of others.  Someone ungrounded will read books like this and start to believe them.  A clever lie is not always a good thing to study unless you have very good discernment.  Why fill your head with lies?
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 08:25:07 PM
TVDOC, I have been a member of Conservative Cave for several years but haven't posted much.  But I read you post with intrest, and though I agree that there is a crisis in Christiandom, there were some things that you said that I didn't understand what you meant. So being a Southern Baptist Conservative Pastor for 33 years I would like to converse with you on some of the points that you made.  First

I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.  If you mean by that that salvation is based upon our acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ through repentant faith, and the person of Christ being that is is God and man in one person; and that the work of Christ is that he died on the cross for our sins, then I agree.  The Bible is clear that faith is in a person, the person of Christ; and the salvation comes through is death on the cross.  

never losing sight of its primary mission, which is the spiritual health of its members......


I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Chruch is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Chruch is a vital mission of the Chruch because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.    

.......services became little different than the Saturday night dinners at the country club after a round of golf.......they were "social" and not "spiritual".

Here I wonder if there is not a dichotomy that many people make between the secular and the spritual.  that is that ones spiritual life is sperate and distinct from one's social/secular life.  I believe that to be a false dichotomy.  I believe that in the Bible that we have a spiritual responsiblty to save the lost and disciple the save; and that we have a secular/social responsibility to "redeem the time" in the society in which we live.  The Bible teaches that Christians have a social/secular responsibiliy that we redeem the time by being involved in secular activities[that incluces politics] that can impact our society for good.  One of the reasons that our nation is in the mess it is in is that Christians have not been involved in the political arena so that they bring the influence of their Christian convictions into the political arena so as to be able to have the effect of the changes that Christian values bring.

:clap: :clap:
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:26:43 PM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125165061&ps=cprs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124572693&ps=rs

Someone that is grounded in the true foundations of Christianity (a fairly rare person these days) could read either of these books are come away with knowledge useful for poking holes in the untrue beliefs of others.  Someone ungrounded will read books like this and start to believe them.  A clever lie is not always a good thing to study unless you have very good discernment.  Why fill your head with lies?

Please....you're obfuscating....the question begs a simple "yes" or "no" answer....we can proceed with the rest from there....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:30:03 PM
TVDOC, I have been a member of Conservative Cave for several years but haven't posted much.  But I read you post with intrest, and though I agree that there is a crisis in Christiandom, there were some things that you said that I didn't understand what you meant. So being a Southern Baptist Conservative Pastor for 33 years I would like to converse with you on some of the points that you made.  First
<snip>

[

I would be happy to address your points, however, I have cataracts, and the red font that you are using makes them impossible for me to read......

Therefore, if you were to pose them to me in a normal black font, and perhaps one or two at a time, I'd be happy to respond.....

Sorry

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 08:30:16 PM
Please....you're obfuscating....the question begs a simple "yes" or "no" answer....we can proceed with the rest from there....

doc
It can beg all it wants.  The fact is that "knowledge" is worthless without discernment.   Absolute belief in lies currently runs many of our churches, our politicians, and our voters.  Only TRUTH is worth studying and KNOWING.

In point of fact, you make that point yourself in talking about your former churches.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:38:10 PM
It can beg all it wants.  The fact is that "knowledge" is worthless without discernment.   Absolute belief in lies currently runs many of our churches, our politicians, and our voters.  Only TRUTH is worth studying and KNOWING.

In point of fact, you make that point yourself in talking about your former churches.

Yes or No, Mrs Smith, if you expect an answer, otherwise I will assume that you are posting for your own self-agrandizment....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 26, 2010, 08:40:14 PM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125165061&ps=cprs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124572693&ps=rs

Someone that is grounded in the true foundations of Christianity (a fairly rare person these days) could read either of these books are come away with knowledge useful for poking holes in the untrue beliefs of others.  Someone ungrounded will read books like this and start to believe them.  A clever lie is not always a good thing to study unless you have very good discernment.  Why fill your head with lies?


Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 08:44:42 PM

Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 


My turn.... 

 :hi5:

doc

Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 09:05:29 PM
Yes or No, Mrs Smith, if you expect an answer, otherwise I will assume that you are posting for your own self-agrandizment....

doc
If you don't get the point, don't bother to answer. 
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 26, 2010, 09:07:03 PM
OK....as hard as this is to read, I'll take a stab, since the poster didn't hang around for a discussion......

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.  If you mean by that that salvation is based upon our acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ through repentant faith, and the person of Christ being that is is God and man in one person; and that the work of Christ is that he died on the cross for our sins, then I agree.  The Bible is clear that faith is in a person, the person of Christ; and the salvation comes through is death on the cross.

On this we agree....I have a very personal relationship with Christ.........I believe in his life, mission, death and resurrection, and the redemption that that brings to me personally......without a "church"

Quote
I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Church is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Church is a vital mission of the Church because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.

The fact that "churches" are not fulfilling that mission, is the entire reason for my OP, my position, ergo the discussion......My evaluation of the "health of the church"....is poor.....

Quote
I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Church is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Church is a vital mission of the Church because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.I would type more but every time I type something it hides below the Post reply box and I have to keep scrolling down to see what I have typed.  So I will simply stop with this

That is all well and good.....however......I restate that my experience is that the churches are failing miserably to fulfill that mission....you can take exception all you want, but that does not alter my experiences with churches.....perhaps not YOUR church, but I've never been there, and therefore have no opinion......on churches in general, as a pastor, I would suggest....."Physician, heal thyself......"  As spiritual leader of your flock, I would assume that you would consider it important that newcomers do not leave your church with the impression that I have received from the vast majority of others that I have attended......

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: USA4ME on March 26, 2010, 09:07:18 PM
From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I would agree that it's a matter of opinion if the above were true.  However if the above were true, if I did not believe the scriptures were directly revealed from God and were a 100% reflection of exactly what he spoke through inspired men, if the Bible was a "compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down," then I wouldn't believe the Bible at all.  If I can't trust all of it, then I can't truly trust any of it.

.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 09:10:04 PM
If you don't get the point, don't bother to answer. 

I get the point, but I asked you a question in good faith, and so far you have refused to answer......until you do, it is pointless for me to continue.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: USA4ME on March 26, 2010, 09:12:49 PM
The fact that "churches" are not fulfilling that mission, is the entire reason for my OP, my position, ergo the discussion......My evaluation of the "health of the church"....is poor.....

If you are finding that to be the case, then the fault lies with the people not doing what God would have them to do as a collection of the "called out."  It is still possible, and I would say is still practiced, that there are Christians who use "the church" as God intented, in which case the health of that church is good.

.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 09:13:52 PM

Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?
No.

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?
Updating to modern language is one thing.  Lying is another.  Did you read the articles on NPR?  Did you understand the very clever half-truths in them...clever enough to take in most people today.  Something is either true or false.  The best lies have some truth scattered throughout.  Unless a person knows the truth, it's very easy to believe the lies.  Why do you think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity?  It's due to lack of knowledge, partial truth, and outright lies.

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 

In the beginning, the first books were given to Moses.  Anyone who doubts this can read Genesis 1, no human would make up a story that implausible and try to pass it off as history...especially one raised to worship the sun as a god.  Like a human would imagine that LIGHT came before the light source.  After that, history was added, prophesy was added...but "stories" were NOT added.

I can absolutely say that the books I referenced on NPR are largely untrue, without any doubt at all.  I can also say that the books written by CS Lewis are largely true, again without doubt.  I can say this because I took the time to study the TRUTH before I looked for lies.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 09:15:01 PM
I get the point, but I asked you a question in good faith, and so far you have refused to answer......until you do, it is pointless for me to continue.....

doc
In that case, the answer is no.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 09:17:21 PM
If you are finding that to be the case, then the fault lies with the people not doing what God would have them to do as a collection of the "called out."  It is still possible, and I would say is still practiced, that there are Christians who use "the church" as God intented, in which case the health of that church is good.

.

Precisely.....hence I continue my quest.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 09:19:28 PM
In that case, the answer is no.

Excellent.....we've finished the "foreplay"....and I've now completed my evaluation of your position in Christianity......referring to my OP.....you're in the "9" category.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 09:26:00 PM
Excellent.....we've finished the "foreplay"....and I've now completed my evaluation of your position in Christianity......referring to my OP.....you're in the "9" category.....

doc
Oh, a label.  How cute!   :-) :-) :whatever:

Of course, it still remains that stuffing your head full of lies is stupid...
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 09:51:39 PM
Oh, a label.  How cute!   :-) :-) :whatever:

Of course, it still remains that stuffing your head full of lies is stupid...

As you have heard before from me.....you are certainly entitled to your opinions, regardless of how presumptuous (or blatantly wrong) they may be......

But that IS the characteristic of a "9".....as you quoted back to me (since it must have struck a nerve).

A theological psychologist friend of mine defined my "09" designation as "A Christian that is so insecure in their faith that they can't tolerate the existence of anything, or anyone that would challenge their fundamental beliefs.....a person so "hidebound" (there's that word again) in Biblical minutia that they fail to see the true scope of Christianity, and are content to exist in a small, protected, safe theological cocoon, where they align themselves with others who are similarly spiritually stunted"........his words, not mine.....Credit to Dr. Malcome Weston, PhD, DD, Baylor University, circa 2008)



However, "if the shoe fits....."

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 26, 2010, 10:01:54 PM
No.
 Updating to modern language is one thing.  Lying is another.  Did you read the articles on NPR?  Did you understand the very clever half-truths in them...clever enough to take in most people today.  Something is either true or false.  The best lies have some truth scattered throughout.  Unless a person knows the truth, it's very easy to believe the lies.  Why do you think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity?  It's due to lack of knowledge, partial truth, and outright lies.

I read one of the articles....not both.

Why do I think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity? Because they can. It's allowed. Whether you like it or not....it is allowed. I'm a Catholic living in the Southern Baptist Bible Belt. Want to know how many times a righteous Christian has called me a heathen? or told me I'm not a Christian because I'm a Catholic?


In the beginning, the first books were given to Moses.  Anyone who doubts this can read Genesis 1, no human would make up a story that implausible and try to pass it off as history...especially one raised to worship the sun as a god.  Like a human would imagine that LIGHT came before the light source.  After that, history was added, prophesy was added...but "stories" were NOT added.

Ok...I used the wrong word using "stories"....history and prophesy are better choices. Still the Word was passed from one generation to another....hundreds of years before it was ever written down in what was to become The Bible. Do you really believe there was never any interpretation of a particular situation or retelling of the circumstances? This history was verbally related by human beings....you cannot truly believe that there was never any interpretation done by the storyteller.

I can absolutely say that the books I referenced on NPR are largely untrue, without any doubt at all.  I can also say that the books written by CS Lewis are largely true, again without doubt.  I can say this because I took the time to study the TRUTH before I looked for lies.


Just for the record....there are 8 versions of the Bible. And thousands of translations into English.

I grew up with the King James Version, which is considered The Holy Bible, in the Episcopal Church.

The Roman Catholic Church uses the Latin Vugate, which is considered to be the most accurate version of The Scriptures.

While all 8 versions are similar, they are not identical.

Does that make one better than the other?

Is version synomous with opinion or fact or interpretation?

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.

Part of what makes each of us an individual...is that we each go through life as an individual....with different experiences that shape us and our way of thinking, viewing the world and all parts of it.

No two people walk the exact same path in this world. While we may have situations that are eerily similar, they are not exact.

Religion is different for each individual. Just as each individual has a personal relationship with God that is not the same as another's. You and your very closest person, may have the same views regarding God and your church, religion, etc. But each of you will have a different relationship with God...simply because of your individuality.

I can tell you that I have had 2 very up close and personal encounters with God. I know that He exists because he spoke to me. Can I tell you what He looked like? Nope. But I can tell you what I felt when He held me. Was there a "white light" that some people have seen? Nope. But there was such a presence, that there was nothing else there but me and Him and my hospital bed. Was it drugs and hallucination? Maybe some people think so....but it doesn't matter ....because I know.

It's all about faith. And how each individual wishes to believe in it and practice that faith.....and most importantly it is between the individual person and God what is TRUE, A LIE, AN INTERPRETATION, AN OPINION.

Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 10:03:02 PM
As you have heard before from me.....you are certainly entitled to your opinions, regardless of how presumptuous (or blatantly wrong) they may be......

But that IS the characteristic of a "9".....as you quoted back to me (since it must have struck a nerve).

A theological psychologist friend of mine defined my "09" designation as "A Christian that is so insecure in their faith that they can't tolerate the existence of anything, or anyone that would challenge their fundamental beliefs.....a person so "hidebound" (there's that word again) in Biblical minutia that they fail to see the true scope of Christianity, and are content to exist in a small, protected, safe theological cocoon, where they align themselves with others who are similarly spiritually stunted"........his words, not mine.....Credit to Dr. Malcome Weston, PhD, DD, Baylor University, circa 2008)



However, "if the shoe fits....."

doc
A Christian that has studied the truth, learned it well enough to spot lies, and isn't afraid to call them lies.  I'd take that as a complement.   :-)  I have worked to gain real knowledge, not fluff.



Let me put it to you this way...one day, you're browsing a bookstore and you run across a book that is a biography of someone with the same name as your wife.  You pick it up out of curiousity, and discover it IS about your wife.  WOW!  So you buy it and begin to read...only to discover that most of the book is fiction, with some facts carefully scattered about to make it look good.  Now...do you offer that book to people that want to know your wife better?  After all, it's knowledge, right?  Or do you tell everyone that the book is full of lies...and sue the author?   :evillaugh: :evillaugh:
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 26, 2010, 10:08:36 PM
Let me put it to you this way...one day, you're browsing a bookstore and you run across a book that is a biography of someone with the same name as your wife.  You pick it up out of curiousity, and discover it IS about your wife.  WOW!  So you buy it and begin to read...only to discover that most of the book is fiction, with some facts carefully scattered about to make it look good.  Now...do you offer that book to people that want to know your wife better?  After all, it's knowledge, right?  Or do you tell everyone that the book is full of lies...and sue the author?   :evillaugh: :evillaugh:

My wife is nearly blind, so she couldn't read it.....but she'd get a hell of a kick out of the idea that someone went to all that trouble...... :-)

doc

On Edit:  Knowing her sense of humor, she would likely enjoy passing it around.......particularly if her "fictional" life is more exciting than her real on has been......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 10:17:14 PM

Just for the record....there are 8 versions of the Bible. And thousands of translations into English.

I grew up with the King James Version, which is considered The Holy Bible, in the Episcopal Church.

The Roman Catholic Church uses the Latin Vugate, which is considered to be the most accurate version of The Scriptures.

While all 8 versions are similar, they are not identical.

Does that make one better than the other?

Is version synomous with opinion or fact or interpretation?

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.

Part of what makes each of us an individual...is that we each go through life as an individual....with different experiences that shape us and our way of thinking, viewing the world and all parts of it.

No two people walk the exact same path in this world. While we may have situations that are eerily similar, they are not exact.

Religion is different for each individual. Just as each individual has a personal relationship with God that is not the same as another's. You and your very closest person, may have the same views regarding God and your church, religion, etc. But each of you will have a different relationship with God...simply because of your individuality.

I can tell you that I have had 2 very up close and personal encounters with God. I know that He exists because he spoke to me. Can I tell you what He looked like? Nope. But I can tell you what I felt when He held me. Was there a "white light" that some people have seen? Nope. But there was such a presence, that there was nothing else there but me and Him and my hospital bed. Was it drugs and hallucination? Maybe some people think so....but it doesn't matter ....because I know.

It's all about faith. And how each individual wishes to believe in it and practice that faith.....and most importantly it is between the individual person and God what is TRUE, A LIE, AN INTERPRETATION, AN OPINION.


Truth is true.  Anything else is untrue.  Your situation may vary, but God's truth does not.  Your relationship may vary, but His foundation does not.  His original words were absolute truth.  As they survive and are translated into different languages, different ideas can arise.  Some of those ideas are not true.  That is why a true Biblical scholar that wants the most possible TRUTH will study more than one translation, will study the original languages, will study the opinions of those that have also learned a great deal, will study the culture of the times, will study the history of the times, will study the archeological evidence...so that, in the end, that scholar can have a good handle on what is true, what is correctly translated, the significance of the writings given the culture.  

For those that have not had enough time to study everything, we study the writings of those that did spend that time.  We work to divine the truth, we sort out authors that tell obvious half- and untruths, we hold to authors that tell as much actual truth as possible.  That way, we learn what God intended us to learn, not what Satan has told the world all along.

Just as you cannot learn math by reading books that say 2 + 2 = 5, 7 - 3 =3...you cannot learn about God from books that lie.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 26, 2010, 10:20:31 PM
My wife is nearly blind, so she couldn't read it.....but she'd get a hell of a kick out of the idea that someone went to all that trouble...... :-)

doc

On Edit:  Knowing her sense of humor, she would likely enjoy passing it around.......particularly if her "fictional" life is more exciting than her real on has been......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......
And you'd tell all your friends..."If you really want to know my wife better, read this book.  You'll especially enjoy the part that details how she escaped from prison after she murdered her parents...and what she did to all those kids we used to have."   :lmao:  

After all, knowledge is good...even if it isn't true.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 26, 2010, 10:25:51 PM
......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......

ahem.....I take issue with being referred to as crazy.

 :hammer:

I prefer "feisty"..... :tongue:
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 26, 2010, 10:29:26 PM

For those that have not had enough time to study everything, we study the writings of those that did spend that time.  We work to divine the truth, we sort out authors that tell obvious half- and untruths, we hold to authors that tell as much actual truth as possible.  That way, we learn what God intended us to learn, not what Satan has told the world all along.

Just as you cannot learn math by reading books that say 2 + 2 = 5, 7 - 3 =3...you cannot learn about God from books that lie.


If you are reading books that are written by people who have done "research"....you are reading opinions and interpretations.

Look into your heart.....talk to God....listen for His answers.

That's where you will find TRUTH.

That's where you will find God's Word....to you.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 11:28:31 PM
And you'd tell all your friends..."If you really want to know my wife better, read this book.  You'll especially enjoy the part that details how she escaped from prison after she murdered her parents...and what she did to all those kids we used to have."   :lmao:  

After all, knowledge is good...even if it isn't true.

Look....I'm a scientist and an academic......you are not going to convince me of "your version of truth" by continuing to spout nonsensical platitudes about it and tell funny stories......I think debk summarized it best when she stated that religion is a "subjective" thing, and it impacts all of us differently.  You and I have crossed swords on this issue for weeks now, and as I am what I am, and trained as a "seeker of truth" you are not going to convince me to just lay down and accept everything that you throw in my direction as "Gospel" (to coin a phrase).  Many things about religion I accept on faith, and faith alone, but that doesn't stop me from looking for the facts to back that up.........that isn't going to change.

I'm very happy that you feel comfortable with your interpretation of the faith......why can't you allow the rest of persue our own quest for that truth.....as we see it.....after all it really isn't any skin off your nose anyway.

You don't even want us to DISCUSS concepts that you disagree with, without jumping in and telling us all what heretics we are .....and frankly that gets old......now many of us can see why people make fun of Christians, and their proselytizing.......if others are discussing something, it is the essence if impoliteness to barge in and advise us (figuratively) that we are all going to hell if we don't do it your way......

You are an intelligent lady, I respect your opinions, and you have definite contributions to make in religious discussions, but the MANNER in which you do it adds nothing to the discussion, and does nothing to add credibility to your opinions.....we want to hear them, just don't stomp all over everyone else's in the process.

How can I be any more succinct than that?

Would it be possible for you to allow others to express their thoughts without fear of condemnation?

It would seem to me to be the "Christian"  thing to do.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 26, 2010, 11:41:34 PM

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.


Deb....I've been trying to get that point across for weeks.....trust me, it ain't gonna happen, you are wasting your breath.......

You will just become more frustrated if you continue.....

A wise man once said:...."arguing with a zealot is a fool's errand......"

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 12:01:16 AM

If you are reading books that are written by people who have done "research"....you are reading opinions and interpretations.

Look into your heart.....talk to God....listen for His answers.

That's where you will find TRUTH.

That's where you will find God's Word....to you.
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling."  
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 12:08:32 AM
Look....I'm a scientist and an academic......you are not going to convince me of "your version of truth" by continuing to spout nonsensical platitudes about it and tell funny stories......I think debk summarized it best when she stated that religion is a "subjective" thing, and it impacts all of us differently.  You and I have crossed swords on this issue for weeks now, and as I am what I am, and trained as a "seeker of truth" you are not going to convince me to just lay down and accept everything that you throw in my direction as "Gospel" (to coin a phrase).  Many things about religion I accept on faith, and faith alone, but that doesn't stop me from looking for the facts to back that up.........that isn't going to change.

I'm very happy that you feel comfortable with your interpretation of the faith......why can't you allow the rest of persue our own quest for that truth.....as we see it.....after all it really isn't any skin off your nose anyway.

You don't even want us to DISCUSS concepts that you disagree with, without jumping in and telling us all what heretics we are .....and frankly that gets old......now many of us can see why people make fun of Christians, and their proselytizing.......if others are discussing something, it is the essence if impoliteness to barge in and advise us (figuratively) that we are all going to hell if we don't do it your way......

You are an intelligent lady, I respect your opinions, and you have definite contributions to make in religious discussions, but the MANNER in which you do it adds nothing to the discussion, and does nothing to add credibility to your opinions.....we want to hear them, just don't stomp all over everyone else's in the process.

How can I be any more succinct than that?

Would it be possible for you to allow others to express their thoughts without fear of condemnation?

It would seem to me to be the "Christian"  thing to do.....

doc
Why don't you just come out and say, "Shut up and go away?"  I'm sorry if I've irritated you.  Well, no, actually I'm not.  You wouldn't be so upset if you didn't understand my point.  You are completely free to go seek whatever you want, wherever you want.  It's not like I could force you not to...even if I ever would.  You just will never get around the fact that studying things that are not true won't gain you anything true.

Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 27, 2010, 03:04:53 PM
Why don't you just come out and say, "Shut up and go away?"  I'm sorry if I've irritated you.  Well, no, actually I'm not.  You wouldn't be so upset if you didn't understand my point.  You are completely free to go seek whatever you want, wherever you want.  It's not like I could force you not to...even if I ever would.  You just will never get around the fact that studying things that are not true won't gain you anything true.


As I've said ad nauseum.....we are not going to agree on YOUR version of "truth".....I have no objection to your participation so long as it is not disruptive, and continuing to restate the same axiom over and over is disruptive......

The statement "this or that is not truth".....is not a valid argument.....its your "opinion"....

If you feel that you can add to the conversation, you are welcome, just don't expect not to have a parochial position challenged.....and challenged vehemently......with that understanding, carry on.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 27, 2010, 03:14:51 PM
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling." 

Let's tone it down a bit....Deb's comments were sincere, wellmeaning, and forthright.......they did not warrant that type of retort......

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on March 27, 2010, 03:22:37 PM
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling."  
That sword swings both ways.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 05:31:06 PM
Quote
I'm a Gnostic Christian because I believe, as the ancient Gnostic's believed, that ones relationship with God (and Christ) is vested in ones personal relationship with Him, and not through the conduit of an organized church  I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......


I'm right there with you.  I didn't even know it had a "name" until I read your OP.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling."  

Did God tell you to post in a condescending manner here or did Satan?  Or perhaps you decided on your own free will do do so?

Intentional or not, you have been posting in a very condescending manner IMO.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 05:38:01 PM
Let's tone it down a bit....Deb's comments were sincere, wellmeaning, and forthright.......they did not warrant that type of retort......

doc
Perhaps not.  However, the fact remains that some formerly Christian groups are turning into cults because they have abandoned the study of that truth that you find so elusive.  I would sincerely hope that deb realizes that truth in my reply to her.  Despite your disdain for the difference between true and untrue...and your insistence that "opinion" is the main difference...there are absolute truths in this world, in God, in God's Word...and He has made it possible for us to find those absolute truths with no need to question which "opinion" is correct.  Unless you happen to have a direct line to that truth, the easiest way to be misled is to read stuff that has some truth and lots of half- or un-truth.  I'm sorry that this simple fact is so opposed to your opinions.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
Did God tell you to post in a condescending manner here or did Satan?  Or perhaps you decided on your own free will do do so?

Intentional or not, you have been posting in a very condescending manner IMO.
Thankfully, I am the only poster on CC that will become condescending when arguing with someone that refuses to see a very simple fact.   ::)
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 05:43:20 PM
Thankfully, I am the only poster on CC that will become condescending when arguing with someone that refuses to see a very simple fact.   ::)

What very simple fact would that be?
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 05:48:48 PM
What very simple fact would that be?
That it is difficult, if not impossible, to increase knowledge by studying material that is not true...unless you happen to know the subject so well that you can immediately spot all the untrue material.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 05:51:11 PM

A wise man once said:...."arguing with a zealot is a fool's errand......"

doc

I really need to start "listening" to such sage advice.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 05:58:04 PM
That it is difficult, if not impossible, to increase knowledge by studying material that is not true...unless you happen to know the subject so well that you can immediately spot all the untrue material.

On that we might agree.  But the hard part comes with descerning true from not true.

Do you consider yourself to be one that happens to know the subject so well that you can immediately spot all the untrue material?


Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 27, 2010, 06:35:29 PM
What very simple fact would that be?

When you get a chance, Rich, you might want to review the entire thread......in it you will find out that Mrs Smith not only speaks to God directly, and receives her answers from Him directly (we haven't yet heard if there is a "burning bush" involved) but He has appointed her the sole arbiter of His truth on earth.......only she and her congregation are the possessors of the ultimate secrets of Christianity, and its instructions for us.....the lowly uneducated that are too blind, and stupid to recognize the awesome strength of her knowledge........

Quote
Thankfully, I am the only poster on CC that will become condescending when arguing with someone that refuses to see a very simple fact.  

See......I can be condescending as hell too....... :-)

doc

On Edit:  A quote comes to mind......"Pride goeth before the fall......"
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: rich_t on March 27, 2010, 06:39:09 PM
When you get a chance, Rich, you might want to review the entire thread......in it you will find out that Mrs Smith not only speaks to God directly, and receives her answers from Him directly (we haven't yet heard if there is a "burning bush" involved) but He has appointed her the sole arbiter of His truth on earth.......only she and her congregation are the possessors of the ultimate secrets of Christianity, and its instructions for us.....the lowly uneducated that are too blind, and stupid to recognize the awesome strength of her knowledge........

See......I can be condescending as hell too....... :-)

doc

DOC, I read the entire thread before I chimed in.  That is why I posted about her posting in such a conscending manner.

It is also why I posted about listening to sage advice about arguing with a zealot.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 27, 2010, 06:42:57 PM
DOC, I read the entire thread before I chimed in.  That is why I posted about her posting in such a conscending manner.

It is also why I posted about listening to sage advice about arguing with a zealot.

 :popcorn:

Roger that.....

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ardentconservative on March 27, 2010, 09:51:56 PM
TVDOC, I have been a member of Conservative Cave for several years but haven't posted much.  But I read you post with intrest, and though I agree that there is a crisis in Christiandom, there were some things that you said that I didn't understand what you meant. So being a Southern Baptist Conservative Pastor for 33 years I would like to converse with you on some of the points that you made.  First

[I firmly believe that one can maintain a state of "grace" and redemption, relying only on ones personal faith, prayer, and communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.......without a "church"......]

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.  If you mean by that that salvation is based upon our acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ through repentant faith, and the person of Christ being that is is God and man in one person; and that the work of Christ is that he died on the cross for our sins, then I agree.  The Bible is clear that faith is in a person, the person of Christ; and the salvation comes through is death on the cross.

[never losing sight of its primary mission, which is the spiritual health of its members......]


I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Chruch is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Chruch is a vital mission of the Chruch because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.   

[.......services became little different than the Saturday night dinners at the country club after a round of golf.......they were "social" and not "spiritual".]

Here I wonder if there is not a dichotomy that many people make between the secular and the spritual.  that is that ones spiritual life is sperate and distinct from one's social/secular life.  I believe that to be a false dichotomy.  I believe that in the Bible that we have a spiritual responsiblty to save the lost and disciple the save; and that we have a secular/social responsibility to "redeem the time" in the society in which we live.  The Bible teaches that Christians have a social/secular responsibiliy that we redeem the time by being involved in secular activities[that incluces politics] that can impact our society for good.  One of the reasons that our nation is in the mess it is in is that Christians have not been involved in the political arena so that they bring the influence of their Christian convictions into the political arena so as to be able to have the effect of the changes that Christian values bring.

I would type more but every time I type something it hides below the Post reply box and I have to keep scrolling down to see what I have typed.  So I will simply stop with this.

Ok, Doc, what you said in in brackets.  My statememts are in black without brackets.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ardentconservative on March 27, 2010, 09:55:20 PM
:clap: :clap:



:clap: :clap:


Thank you.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ardentconservative on March 27, 2010, 09:58:45 PM
Question?  Can anyone tell me why, when I type a response in the "Post reply" box and I fill the box up any other text that I type hides below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and to see what I have typed I have to scroll down.

Then when I scroll down the next key that I use the text again goes below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and I can't see what I am typing.

It is very hard to correct typing mistakes when you can't see what you are typing.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: thundley4 on March 27, 2010, 10:03:22 PM
Question?  Can anyone tell me why, when I type a response in the "Post reply" box and I fill the box up any other text that I type hides below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and to see what I have typed I have to scroll down.

Then when I scroll down the next key that I use the text again goes below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and I can't see what I am typing.

It is very hard to correct typing mistakes when you can't see what you are typing.  Thanks.

Keep your cursor in the reply box area, that will allow you to scroll there. Move outside the reply area, and it scrolls the whole page.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 10:32:51 PM
Question?  Can anyone tell me why, when I type a response in the "Post reply" box and I fill the box up any other text that I type hides below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and to see what I have typed I have to scroll down.

Then when I scroll down the next key that I use the text again goes below the bottom of the "Post reply" box and I can't see what I am typing.

It is very hard to correct typing mistakes when you can't see what you are typing.  Thanks.
I have that problem on our other PC, only on this board.  It changed when we upgraded Explorer.  It doesn't happen with Firefox.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: MrsSmith on March 27, 2010, 10:37:32 PM
When you get a chance, Rich, you might want to review the entire thread......in it you will find out that Mrs Smith not only speaks to God directly, and receives her answers from Him directly (we haven't yet heard if there is a "burning bush" involved) but He has appointed her the sole arbiter of His truth on earth.......only she and her congregation are the possessors of the ultimate secrets of Christianity, and its instructions for us.....the lowly uneducated that are too blind, and stupid to recognize the awesome strength of her knowledge........

See......I can be condescending as hell too....... :-)

doc

On Edit:  A quote comes to mind......"Pride goeth before the fall......"
Actually, I never said that any of it was my opinion, my truth, or my anything else...let alone a God-given revelation to my congregation.  At most, I narrowed it down to conservative Christianity...that portion of the believers that study scripture, language, and culture to derive the most complete picture of God's Word. I believe that latest figure for that is somewhere in the millions.  It just does not include the portion of seekers that seek within untrue material for a path to God.

 Condescension works best when it remains within truthful guidelines...just as knowledge.  Facts are just far better foundations for anything.   :-)
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: debk on March 28, 2010, 08:53:35 AM
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling."  

OUCH!!!

You know....I just walked out of Mass an hour ago and the only response that comes to my mind reading this comment is...

What an incredibly bitchy thing to say to me....or anyone for that matter.

And you call yourself a Christian?
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 28, 2010, 11:26:24 AM
TVDOC, I have been a member of Conservative Cave for several years but haven't posted much.  But I read you post with intrest, and though I agree that there is a crisis in Christiandom, there were some things that you said that I didn't understand what you meant. So being a Southern Baptist Conservative Pastor for 33 years I would like to converse with you on some of the points that you made.  First

<snip>


Ardentconservative.......since you posted your initial remarks, then disappeared......I'll direct your attention to the last post at the bottom of page 2 of this thread......as an aside, I had to copy your entire post into "notepad", remove the flakey red font, correct the quotes, and edit it so that I could read it.....took me thirty minutes......had you stuck around to actually "participate" you'd have had your answer.....just say'n :-)

However, if you will review that last post on page 2 you will find that I answered each of your questions......

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Chris_ on March 28, 2010, 11:53:03 AM
Condescension works best when it remains within truthful guidelines...just as knowledge.  Facts are just far better foundations for anything.   :-)

Now you are the world's highest authority on "condecention".......

Madam.....I'd prefer that you refrain from lecturing me on either knowledge.....or language......since I believe that my demonstrated credentials are vastly superior to yours in either area.......you wanted facts, ponder that one for a while....

If you wish to continue a discussion of the topic, please continue.....you've been warned several times, and I'm still "really pissed" about your unnecessarily snide remark to "debk" (I believe that you owe her a very public apology) ....so you are skating on very thin ice with me.....either stick to the topic, without disrupting the discussion, or you are out of here....capiche?

I'm the moderator in this forum, so you can attack me with some impunity, it goes with the job, so long as you remain on topic, and within the forum rules.....but tacitly attacking another member will get you shitcanned in a heartbeat if you do it again......

Do you completely understand this?   Only a "yes or no" is required....



doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Thor on March 28, 2010, 03:07:39 PM
A word or warning........... we Admins have the final authority on our membership. That said, our moderators are selected because we trust them to do a good job and support the forum. Arguing with our moderators and ignoring their advice is tantamount to disrespecting the Forum, the Administrators and the moderators. Such actions can and have gotten people banned.

To put it succinctly, Mrs. Smith, while some people enjoy your participation here, you are disrupting this forum. I will NOT tolerate your actions much longer. You have been warned several times and consider this your FINAL warning. Any further disruption of this forum (or any other) will result in your termination. Do I make myself clear?????
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ardentconservative on March 29, 2010, 12:51:33 PM
Well, I had looked forward to inacting with all of you on this topic, but I can't keep the text I am typing on the screen long enough to see what I am typing. 

So, as a last post, I will say to Doc, I only took exception with the fact that you stated that the "health of the church" was the chruch's primary mission.  My reply was to show that Matthew 28 put the saving of the lost through the Gospel message as the primary mission of the church with disciping the saved as a close second.  No need to get snippy just becasue I disagreed with you point of view.

Now I say so long for the above mentioned reason.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Thor on March 29, 2010, 01:14:24 PM
ardent; you need to bear in mind that we are discussing reality within the different Churches, NOT scripture. The Church (pick one) is in a mode of self-preservation. There have been MANY Churches that I've attended and ALL of them seem to be focused on the monetary aspect of how much a person ca/ will give vs the scriptures. The only Church I've ever attended that didn't was the ones on the Navy bases. Heck, all one needs to do is look at the cover ups from within the Catholic Church. Then, the Episcopal church openly allows gays to preach. (WTF??) If they were truly concerned with the scriptures, this stuff wouldn't be happening.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Doc on March 29, 2010, 01:29:11 PM
Well, I had looked forward to inacting with all of you on this topic, but I can't keep the text I am typing on the screen long enough to see what I am typing.  

So, as a last post, I will say to Doc, I only took exception with the fact that you stated that the "health of the church" was the Church's primary mission.  My reply was to show that Matthew 28 put the saving of the lost through the Gospel message as the primary mission of the church with disciping the saved as a close second.  No need to get snippy just because I disagreed with you point of view.

Now I say so long for the above mentioned reason.

Sorry if I left you with the impression that I was "snippy" with you.......it had nothing to do with what you posted, only that due to a vision problem, it required a lot of time for me to edit your comments so that I could respond to them.....further complicated by the fact that there were several members posting comments and questions at the time, and I was typing as fast as I could......

I'm sure that you didn't select the red font intentionally to create problems......

By the way.....thank you for adopting the forum default font and type color......it's a big help

Now to your reference to Mark 28......

Referring to my OP......I'm already "saved".....that happened a long time ago, so, at least for me, I don't need a "church" for that, my personal acceptance of Christ as my Savior accomplished that, and from that point, the relationship that I have with him is "personal", and not "institutional".

You mentioned that you are/were a Baptist pastor, therefore, you should see the absolute validity of my position.  Now, regarding "deciping" the saved.......here is where my experiences have led me to the conclusion that the "church" has departed from Christ's mission for them.  Again from my opening remarks, when a church finds liberal or conservative politics, "political correctness", or a "social agenda" as outwardly demonstrated to a new couple visiting the church for purposes of considering joining the fellowship, their ecumenical priority......then I have no choice but assume that these fellowships are drifting far afield from the mission, and the Gospel.

You are probably correct that churches exist out there that have held fast to the teachings of Christ........I just have not found one yet......hence my comments, and my quest.......

And regardless of how you might personally feel about my position, you simply cannot deny the fact that many mainstream denominations (The Disciples of Christ being my primary example), followed by the United Methodists, the American Anglican (Epispical) Congregation, At least one Lutheran Synod, as well as an number of other mainstream denominations, have accepted ecumenical political policy positions that fly in the face of Christ's message.....as a matter of priorities......they may go through the motions, but their focus is on "political correctness", and "inclusion" rather than the Gospel.......mainly because preaching the unadulterated Gospel will make some people unhappy, and feel "excluded".......

Be that as it may......these are my personal (and therefore anecdotal) experiences........I posted them here for discussion, and as a warning to the faithful that all may not be as it seems, in American Christendom.

doc
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: vesta111 on March 29, 2010, 03:22:56 PM
Sorry if I left you with the impression that I was "snippy" with you.......it had nothing to do with what you posted, only that due to a vision problem, it required a lot of time for me to edit your comments so that I could respond to them.....further complicated by the fact that there were several members posting comments and questions at the time, and I was typing as fast as I could......

I'm sure that you didn't select the red font intentionally to create problems......

By the way.....thank you for adopting the forum default font and type color......it's a big help

Now to your reference to Mark 28......

Referring to my OP......I'm already "saved".....that happened a long time ago, so, at least for me, I don't need a "church" for that, my personal acceptance of Christ as my Savior accomplished that, and from that point, the relationship that I have with him is "personal", and not "institutional".

You mentioned that you are/were a Baptist pastor, therefore, you should see the absolute validity of my position.  Now, regarding "deciping" the saved.......here is where my experiences have led me to the conclusion that the "church" has departed from Christ's mission for them.  Again from my opening remarks, when a church finds liberal or conservative politics, "political correctness", or a "social agenda" as outwardly demonstrated to a new couple visiting the church for purposes of considering joining the fellowship, their ecumenical priority......then I have no choice but assume that these fellowships are drifting far afield from the mission, and the Gospel.

You are probably correct that churches exist out there that have held fast to the teachings of Christ........I just have not found one yet......hence my comments, and my quest.......

And regardless of how you might personally feel about my position, you simply cannot deny the fact that many mainstream denominations (The Disciples of Christ being my primary example), followed by the United Methodists, the American Anglican (Epispical) Congregation, At least one Lutheran Synod, as well as an number of other mainstream denominations, have accepted ecumenical political policy positions that fly in the face of Christ's message.....as a matter of priorities......they may go through the motions, but their focus is on "political correctness", and "inclusion" rather than the Gospel.......mainly because preaching the unadulterated Gospel will make some people unhappy, and feel "excluded".......

Be that as it may......these are my personal (and therefore anecdotal) experiences........I posted them here for discussion, and as a warning to the faithful that all may not be as it seems, in American Christendom.

doc

Wonderful discussion, lots to be absorbed here.

Christianity to be understood in all the Hats the Church wears has to be studied not from the Bible itself but from historical records.

The Bible is quite the story of of mankinds struggle, strife and survival over 10-20 thousand years.  The Torah is a Testament to humans that protected it and it survived through the years

I wonder what the TRUTH actually means, is there anything but birth and death that is the real truth.?

Christians before the Nicene gathering did not believe Jesus was god, did not know or believe in the Trinity.  To them Jesus was a phropt, only after hundreds of years did the concept that Jesus died for mankind come into the faith.  This was no accident but a smart ploy of the Church at the time.

The Church at that time in need of money passed the idea that man could not get into heaven by good works alone.   Man had to have faith and that meant showing their faith with supporting the church.   This of course raises the question of those never exposed to Christianity that were good people that died but went to Hell because of their ignorance of Jesus.
      A GOD fearing family that spent their lives in service to the town folk were burned at the stake for not having enough money to support the local church---HEATHENS

AHHHH, the history of the evolution of a faith, all the power plays and blood and guts spilled it takes to form a unified faith.

Please don't forget the Tower of Babble, all languages scrambled, so the name of GOD was scrambled also, all monotheistic people had a different name for HIM, be it the Great Spirit to Allah.   

Please play on you guys, the more you argue the stronger MY faith becomes. 

If one wants the truth, one must know the history of the subject.  I can paint my car blue on the right side and red on the left. Two people on opposite sides of the street will tell the truth, what they saw.   Both give you the truth yet the object gets lost in the observation.








Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: Thor on March 29, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
Again, Vesta jumps over the ledge. Matthew 28:19 speaks clearly of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, if you read this verse carefully, you will see that the Three have just one name. It says, "baptizing them into the name" (not names) "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." There are Three with one name. This is the Triune God, the Trinity. The book of Matthew was written LONG before the Bible was "assembled" in Nicea. Granted, the Nicene creed originated around 325 A.D. but believing in the Triune God originated long before.

Doc, if there's one in your area, you may find that the Anglican Church will suit your beliefs. They're an offshoot from the Episcopal Church and that is due to the Episcopal Church accepting women and gays as "priests" (and higher clergical positions) and following the "political Correctness" doctrine vs what the Bible states. I dunno, just a suggestion. Your beliefs seem to parallel mine. One CAN be a Christian and not go to Church.
Title: Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
Post by: ChuckJ on March 29, 2010, 05:37:31 PM
Again, Vesta jumps over the ledge. Matthew 28:19 speaks clearly of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, if you read this verse carefully, you will see that the Three have just one name. It says, "baptizing them into the name" (not names) "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." There are Three with one name. This is the Triune God, the Trinity. The book of Matthew was written LONG before the Bible was "assembled" in Nicea. Granted, the Nicene creed originated around 325 A.D. but believing in the Triune God originated long before.

Doc, if there's one in your area, you may find that the Anglican Church will suit your beliefs. They're an offshoot from the Episcopal Church and that is due to the Episcopal Church accepting women and gays as "priests" (and higher clergical positions) and following the "political Correctness" doctrine vs what the Bible states. I dunno, just a suggestion. Your beliefs seem to parallel mine. One CAN be a Christian and not go to Church.

I agree with the bolded. If I remember correctly the creed basically clarified and reaffirmed the belief that the church already held.