The Fair Tax

[docstew]

Eliminate the Federal Income Tax FIRST then a plan can be drawn up to replace it not the other way around. The Fair Tax is a pipe dream that will never materialize.

I'm guessing you've never read H.R. 25, I.e., the Fair Tax bill?

....if you had, you'd know that repealing the 16th Amendment is a contingency to the implementation of the Fair Tax.

No I have not read it. How many admendments have been repealed or passed lately?. The ERA did not quite make it so I see zero chance of it happening. The Supreme Court has ruled against the states that try to impose sales tax on interstate sales where no nexus exists. The commerce clause throws another monkey wrench into the pie.   

well, there was an amendment that passed in the 1990's after only 200 some years gaining ratifications...

[docstew]

and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum?  that's how the 21st amendment was passed...

true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?

[Rebel]

and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum?  that's how the 21st amendment was passed...

true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?

Let Baracka get elected and people might be protesting in the streets with pitchforks. NO WAY IN HELL can we pay for his trillion+ dollar give-away package he's promising. Not even if he brings all the troops back on 21Jan09.

[rich_t]

and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum?  that's how the 21st amendment was passed...

true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?

A small ripple.  It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.

When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.

Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history.  I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.

The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge.  Most of them think the government is.  They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens.  IMO anyway.

[Rebel]

I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. 

[rich_t]

I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. 

I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?

[Rebel]

I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. 

I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?

Women, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are emotional creatures. Not logical. Men, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are geared more towards freedom. Women are geared towards security. This is biological and there's nothing a feminazi can do to change it.

[rich_t]

I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. 

I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?

Women, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are emotional creatures. Not logical. Men, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are geared more towards freedom. Women are geared towards security. This is biological and there's nothing a feminazi can do to change it.

I take your point.  I know more than one woman that has told me she voted for Bill Clinton cuz they thought he was handsome.

[Rebel]

I take your point.  I know more than one woman that has told me she voted for Bill Clinton cuz they thought he was handsome.

Everyone knows at least one. My ex-wife's sister voted for Clinton for the same reason. She said "cute" though.

[DumbAss Tanker]

There has been a lot written about the feminization of America, the outlawing of masculinity, etc., and no matter how politically incorrect it may be I have to agree that the hardwired drive for security above all is the single greatest threat to our personal liberty, more dangerous than any passing despot because it is a relentless presence that works on our society from birth, through socialization in the schools, to the inevitable drift in favor of it because of pandering to the impulse in elections and the press which in turn results in ever-more-restrictive attitudes, statutes, and case decisions.

[Chris_]

and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum?  that's how the 21st amendment was passed...

true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?

A small ripple.  It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.

When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.

Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history.  I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.

The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge.  Most of them think the government is.  They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens.  IMO anyway.

Go to the American Heritage website sometime, and look up your "tax freedom day".  When the confiscations of the fruits of the sweat of your brow from all levels of government are added together, you're already a slave to your government for at least 6 months out of every year.

50% effective tax rates don't have to creep up on us, because they're already here.  The effective tax rate on the English colonies in America was 3% when they told King George and his Parliament - the ones who levied all those onerous taxations without representation - to go pound sand.  When are we going to wake our little froggie asses up and realize that the water in this big silver pot we're in is getting hotter, and I'm starting to see bubbles that can't be accounted for by frog farts.

[Hokieguy95]

Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.

What have you guys got to say about it?

It may be a bad idea.

First...It's a tax that cannot be hidden....at all.  Don't get me wrong, I hate the income tax, but at least you can find ways to circumvent it.   You won't be able to do that with the fair tax. 
me thinks there needs to be more debate on it and there needs to be other options.  I am not sold on it by any means...because once it's in place your stuck with it.  There is more chance of the income tax being repealed then there would be getting rid of a real tax on goods.

Laurence Vance is a strong opponent of it and a free market expert to boot.  I strongly urge you to read his arguments (below link)  and any arguments you can on this so people aren't duped at how "grand" this would be.

http://mises.org/story/1814

[john c calhoun]

and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum?  that's how the 21st amendment was passed...

true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?

A small ripple.  It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.

When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.

Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history.  I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.

The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge.  Most of them think the government is.  They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens.  IMO anyway.

Go to the American Heritage website sometime, and look up your "tax freedom day".  When the confiscations of the fruits of the sweat of your brow from all levels of government are added together, you're already a slave to your government for at least 6 months out of every year.

50% effective tax rates don't have to creep up on us, because they're already here.  The effective tax rate on the English colonies in America was 3% when they told King George and his Parliament - the ones who levied all those onerous taxations without representation - to go pound sand.  When are we going to wake our little froggie asses up and realize that the water in this big silver pot we're in is getting hotter, and I'm starting to see bubbles that can't be accounted for by frog farts.

yep....

but its all in the name of  'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....

but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....

maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?

we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure  nation on earth as well...

and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....

EVERYTHING....

king george dances in his grave at this notion...

[RobJohnson]

Be punished for your frugality -- yeah, works for me.

Good point.

[RobJohnson]

Those 260 million other people get a monthly check up to the poverty level. About 150 a month per person.

Sounds like socialism.

We already have that with earned income credits...what a sham.

[Chris_]

When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.

When the 16th Amendment was passed, one Congressman was censured for suggesting that opening this door would one day lead to taxes on income as high as - gasp  - 20%.

But then the congressional memory has always been mayfly brief in it's longevity.

[Hokieguy95]

When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.

When the 16th Amendment was passed, one Congressman was censured for suggesting that opening this door would one day lead to taxes on income as high as - gasp  - 20%.

But then the congressional memory has always been mayfly brief in it's longevity.

Some of us still believe it is an illegal tax....but what can you do.

[Chris_]

A crowd of people with torches and pitchforks come to mind.

So long as you continue to grant credence to the argument that the Government is in charge in America, and not the individual Americans, you're right.  The moment you CEASE to allow that false argument to be used against you, you resume your role in our country as a free man, capable of determining your own destiny.

[Hokieguy95]

A crowd of people with torches and pitchforks come to mind.

So long as you continue to grant credence to the argument that the Government is in charge in America, and not the individual Americans, you're right.  The moment you CEASE to allow that false argument to be used against you, you resume your role in our country as a free man, capable of determining your own destiny.

Collectivism is a bitch isn't it?   

You can tell alot about a person by the answer to one question.

True or False.  The Federal Government and America are the same thing?

And watch how many drink that koolaide up!!

[Rebel]

Sounds like socialism.

We already have that with earned income credits...what a sham.

What? No, I don't mean JUST 260 million. I mean EVERY legal citizen will receive a check of this amount to cover the cost of taxes paid up to the poverty level.

[Rebel]

yep....

but its all in the name of  'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....

but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....

maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?

we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure  nation on earth as well...

and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....

EVERYTHING....

king george dances in his grave at this notion...

Maybe this is why your business always fails. You still believe businesses pay taxes. 

[john c calhoun]

yep....

but its all in the name of  'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....

but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....

maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?

we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure  nation on earth as well...

and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....

EVERYTHING....

king george dances in his grave at this notion...

Maybe this is why your business always fails. You still believe businesses pay taxes. 

and what successful business have you owned &/or taken direct part in for several decades ?

my biz  isn't a failure....

in fact, until the oil queers f**ked everything up in april/may, my biz was going on a RECORD year for sales & profits....

what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....

[Hokieguy95]

what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....

Big business monopoly and failed banks (see this weeks news on Fanny Mae) get government subidies.  Well...that's corporate welfare.  So basically these shitty businesses are no different from the crack whore on welfare.
And when we all cash in our stimulus checks, borrowed from foreign governments like the Chinese btw, and payoff our visa or put a down payment on that new Prius, then we can be thankful we just gave that business more government tax money.  In the era of big government there are few that don't live off the dole.

[Rebel]

and what successful business have you owned &/or taken direct part in for several decades ?

my biz  isn't a failure....

in fact, until the oil queers f**ked everything up in april/may, my biz was going on a RECORD year for sales & profits....

what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....

I still have my antiques business with my mother. My taxes increase, I raise my prices. I.e., my customer pays my taxes. This doesn't take a PhD to understand, John. Doesn't even take a business owner. It's common ****ing sense. 

[Rebel]

Big business monopoly and failed banks (see this weeks news on Fanny Mae) get government subidies.  Well...that's corporate welfare.  So basically these shitty businesses are no different from the crack whore on welfare.
And when we all cash in our stimulus checks, borrowed from foreign governments like the Chinese btw, and payoff our visa or put a down payment on that new Prius, then we can be thankful we just gave that business more government tax money.  In the era of big government there are few that don't live off the dole.

You don't think you'll get a disagreement here, do you? On corporate bailouts? Look mang, I know you're a Paul supporter, probably a Barr supporter now, but that wasn't what caused us to move here. We disagreed with his foreign policy stance on Iraq and Afghanistan. "Some" of his other positions were a little whacked out, but so are McCain's.

You won't get anyone here supporting corporate bailouts. Welcome aboard.