The Conservative Cave
Interests => Living Off of the Grid & Survivalism => Topic started by: Mike220 on November 24, 2013, 07:25:10 PM
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As I've thought more and more about saying "**** it" to the current situation, I've been thinking about getting away from the city, buying some land, building a little cabin, having some livestock and a garden and going off grid. Doing it by yourself in our (relatively) stable current atmosphere is fine but what about if the shit really hits the fan? Obviously there's safety (and distribution of work) in numbers, but it brings its own set of disadvantages. How would you view forming a community after the collapse?
In this scenario, I assume that there will be large bodies of people fleeing the cities,naturally desperate and most will be armed with small arms or crude hand weapons and heavy weapons will be few or non-existent.
Here's how I define the choices:
Kibbutz: A centralized village where most people live surrounded by outlying fields for grazing or planting. Provides a limited area for defense, meaning the ability to build defensive fortifications and mutual support is close at hand in the event something goes wrong. Naturally provides the ability to defend in a siege, the downside being of course, the community would lose its fields and anything it couldn't get inside the wall. Stockpiles must be continually rotated to provide sufficient non-spoiled stores. History shows being on the receiving end of a siege is not fun with starvation and disease claiming many lives, but a covered defense from height is one of the best positions. If the community is willing to turn to scorched earth to deny supplies to an attacker, proper planning can enhance the ability to outlast the besieger.
Homestead: A small central community area but homes are spread over a large area on each family's individual plot of land. Mutual support is possible but may be delayed by distance. The central "village" may be fortified but as most people live outside of it, space will be at a premium. Generally there would be no other substantial defenses outside what individual families could provide for their homes, but the dispersal of forces would necessarily weaken those defenses. Stockpiles of supplies would need to be maintained by both the community and each homestead. Otherwise similar to the above scenario.
Isolationist: Just as it sounds, on your own or with your immediate family and all the drawbacks that entails. Small numbers require more work per person as well as decreased security abilities.
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I went with the Kibbutz.
This country's earlier days had forts for protection. They were also used throughout history.
Didn't a conservative group form something like this? I can't remember the state.
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Shell Knob is a very small (pop. about 2000) unincorporated community in rural SW Missouri near the AR border. It's made up mostly of spread out developments.
We live about 7 miles away from "town", and I know just about everybody in the shopping area along the highway.
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At my age, I'll have to play it by ear...isolation to start...but I ain't gonna put up with any BS if I go another way.
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I chose the default option (Jooooooos!) because the type of community I would hope that would form, and that I would be a part of, would be bigger than the kibbutz.
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Not too nuts about the kibbutz idea (And is that different from Joooos anyway?) as it's basically the kind of Socialist arrangement along Marxist lines that failed again and again here in the 18th and 19th Centuries. It worked as well as it did in Israel because of the religious and political zeal involved and infusions of cash from Jews and Christians around the world.
I'd rather have a community of freeholders/homesteaders, able to own private property beyond what they can put in a footlocker or sea bag, in touch with each other and contributing their own special skills and gear as partners rather than proles.
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I must be misunderstanding this exercise. I thought the scenario was that the country had collapsed, everything was in chaos and that there was a need to pool resources.
In our early founding days wasn't a Fort the first choice for safety? Kind of like the wagon trains circling?
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I went with the Kibbutz.
This country's earlier days had forts for protection. They were also used throughout history.
Didn't a conservative group form something like this? I can't remember the state.
Are you thinking of the Oneida commune in NY in the 1800s?
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Not too nuts about the kibbutz idea (And is that different from Joooos anyway?) as it's basically the kind of Socialist arrangement along Marxist lines that failed again and again here in the 18th and 19th Centuries. It worked as well as it did in Israel because of the religious and political zeal involved and infusions of cash from Jews and Christians around the world.
I'd rather have a community of freeholders/homesteaders, able to own private property beyond what they can put in a footlocker or sea bag, in touch with each other and contributing their own special skills and gear as partners rather than proles.
Yep what he said :agree:
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I must be misunderstanding this exercise. I thought the scenario was that the country had collapsed, everything was in chaos and that there was a need to pool resources.
In our early founding days wasn't a Fort the first choice for safety? Kind of like the wagon trains circling?
I'm asking what you personally would prefer. The security that comes with a tight knit community or going it on your own and trusting your security to yourself.
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Not too nuts about the kibbutz idea (And is that different from Joooos anyway?) as it's basically the kind of Socialist arrangement along Marxist lines that failed again and again here in the 18th and 19th Centuries. It worked as well as it did in Israel because of the religious and political zeal involved and infusions of cash from Jews and Christians around the world.
I'd rather have a community of freeholders/homesteaders, able to own private property beyond what they can put in a footlocker or sea bag, in touch with each other and contributing their own special skills and gear as partners rather than proles.
It was the best example I could come up with... That or a medieval village.
I didn't necessarily mean the governmental aspects that is/was present in the kibbutz movement, but more the idea of strength in numbers. The government setup would be the choice of the citizens.
I'd personally prefer the first option for the first year or two second option once the situation stabilized and agriculture and a new society is established. Let's face it, in a true end of the world scenario there will be a mass exodus from the cities of angry, desperate and hungry people who will be willing to do anything to help themselves or there family survive. Many will be less than scrupulous and think nothing of theft, murder and slavery to ease their plight. The stupid die first and as you get farther from the cities, the truly cunning (and dangerous) survive.
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Yep what he said :agree:
I went with "other". :whatever:
:-)
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I went with "other". :whatever:
:-)
Lawyer...
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It was the best example I could come up with... That or a medieval village.
I didn't necessarily mean the governmental aspects that is/was present in the kibbutz movement, but more the idea of strength in numbers. The government setup would be the choice of the citizens.
I'd personally prefer the first option for the first year or two second option once the situation stabilized and agriculture and a new society is established. Let's face it, in a true end of the world scenario there will be a mass exodus from the cities of angry, desperate and hungry people who will be willing to do anything to help themselves or there family survive. Many will be less than scrupulous and think nothing of theft, murder and slavery to ease their plight. The stupid die first and as you get farther from the cities, the truly cunning (and dangerous) survive.
Here are a couple of others, which don't carry the Socialist baggage of the kibbutzim:
1. Norse village, with a fortified longhouse surrounded by freeholds.
2. The American Frontier model, in which a fortified fort with a water source provides a place of retreat, protection, and storage for homesteads "on the frontier" or along the trails heading west.
I prefer #2. My ancestors were Celts and Norse, but I am a Frontier Dog at heart.
I guess that makes me an "other".
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Here are a couple of others, which don't carry the Socialist baggage of the kibbutzim:
1. Norse village, with a fortified longhouse surrounded by freeholds.
2. The American Frontier model, in which a fortified fort with a water source provides a place of retreat, protection, and storage for homesteads "on the frontier" or along the trails heading west.
I prefer #2. My ancestors were Celts and Norse, but I am a Frontier Dog at heart.
I guess that makes me an "other".
I'm for that, but with a lot of ...pew, pew, pew !
I guess that made me an "other" too.
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Here are a couple of others, which don't carry the Socialist baggage of the kibbutzim:
1. Norse village, with a fortified longhouse surrounded by freeholds.
2. The American Frontier model, in which a fortified fort with a water source provides a place of retreat, protection, and storage for homesteads "on the frontier" or along the trails heading west.
I prefer #2. My ancestors were Celts and Norse, but I am a Frontier Dog at heart.
I guess that makes me an "other".
That second one's sort of along the lines of what I'm talking about, except more like, say, Williamsburg. Any kind of sizable fortification short of WW1 trench redoubts is pretty useless against whatever modern firearms may still be floating around. Williamsburg had an armory that could serve as a citadel as a last resort but was mainly a muster point and depot for the heavy weapons and the small arms for the underequipped.
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I have found the series "The Dome" to be really interesting. I have been predicting the responses of the people inside. I think they were much slower to get to martial law than I think would happen in RL (but we have to give them some time to realize "this isn't temporary").
It is sort a reverse TSHTF scenario, but when you realize your resources are the ONLY ONES YOU HAVE -- men, materiel, natural -- you start making the hard decisions.
The guy that "owned" the natural gas made the wrong decision.
Just an observation.
It certainly is a worthwhile mental excersize.
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I have found the series "The Dome" to be really interesting. I have been predicting the responses of the people inside. I think they were much slower to get to martial law than I think would happen in RL (but we have to give them some time to realize "this isn't temporary").
It is sort a reverse TSHTF scenario, but when you realize your resources are the ONLY ONES YOU HAVE -- men, materiel, natural -- you start making the hard decisions.
The guy that "owned" the natural gas made the wrong decision.
Just an observation.
It certainly is a worthwhile mental excersize.
I kind of like the idea of the hunter gatherer from the time when we Europeans first got here.
Small tribes of relatives that wandered about tracking the wild life as the seasons changed, moving about from spring to fall, this was when men were men and woman were woman.
Everyone had a job from the youngest child down to the elderly. Tribal tattoos were placed on the youngsters to denote their tribe and prevent incest.
The young men were busy learning how to feed their family, the woman and girls kept busy making clothing from the hides of the Animals the men and boys caught.
Very active lives for them all, no time to get into mischief for anyone, this was their life and they lived it with Pride.
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I can't help but think of preppers when I see this thread.
I wonder if the cave should have some sort of pre prep plan.
Or maybe this thread unofficially is.
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I can't help but think of preppers when I see this thread.
I wonder if the cave should have some sort of pre prep plan.
Or maybe this thread unofficially is.
Well, that is pretty much what this particular subforum is for.
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Well, that is pretty much what this particular subforum is for.
I was thinking more along the lines of networking. I have done little to no prep, I would be looking for shelter with little to nothing to offer in return. My plan right now is denying that I will ever need to.
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I was thinking more along the lines of networking. I have done little to no prep, I would be looking for shelter with little to nothing to offer in return. My plan right now is denying that I will ever need to.
You're a helicopter pilot.
You provide air superiority.
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You're a helicopter pilot.
You provide air superiority.
Anyone know how to mount 3.5" rocket pods on a helo? :killemall:
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Anyone know how to mount 3.5" rocket pods on a helo? :killemall:
Duct tape?
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Duct tape?
Duct tape makes rockets launched from helicopters produce a distinctive sound !
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Duct tape makes rockets launched from helicopters produce a distinctive sound !
Pew, pew, pew!
Have you had a busy Thanksgiving? I saw your post about 2 hospitals and an FBO.
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Pew, pew, pew! BINGO ! ! !
Have you had a busy Thanksgiving? I saw your post about 2 hospitals and an FBO.
Yes, a STEMI transfer from SE Missouri hospital to the best St. Louis STEMI hospital, and a trip to get gas. I burned 75 gallons of jet fuel all told. just doing my job, and a little of Diesel Driver's just in case he is slacking.
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Yes, a STEMI transfer from SE Missouri hospital to the best St. Louis STEMI hospital, and a trip to get gas. I burned 75 gallons of jet fuel all told. just doing my job, and a little of Diesel Driver's just in case he is slacking.
Hospital chow for Thanksgiving? BTDT.
So, back to the topic at hand. Are you rated on the OH-58/JetRanger? <stroking chin whiskers>
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Hospital chow for Thanksgiving? BTDT.
So, back to the topic at hand. Are you rated on the OH-58/JetRanger? <stroking chin whiskers>
Yes, over 1,000 hours of Bell OH58A/B, JetRanger, and LongRanger time.
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Yes, over 1,000 hours of Bell OH58A/B, JetRanger, and LongRanger time.
I can use a man like you. Consider yourself added to my SHTF contact list.
:thor: :thor: :thor:
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I went with the Kibbutz.
This country's earlier days had forts for protection. They were also used throughout history.
Didn't a conservative group form something like this? I can't remember the state.
http://www.iiicitadel.com/index.html
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I'm for that, but with a lot of ...pew, pew, pew !
I guess that made me an "other" too.
DAMN IT!! I would have totally voted for the pew pew pew option but it wasn't in the list........... :hammer: :rotf:
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I can use a man like you. Consider yourself added to my SHTF contact list.
:thor: :thor: :thor:
We will all have to give a great individual effort for the team if ever the SHTF.
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Wait 3 days and then take over an unarmed DUmmies place....by the third day, they should have stolen everything I need plus some luxury items.
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http://www.iiicitadel.com/index.html
Thanks :-) I thought it was Idaho. Wonder if they've made any headway.
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A small and trusted community with the first requirement being they can put down 4 legged critters for food and 2 legged ones that inevitably will be trying to steal it.
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A small and trusted community with the first requirement being they can put down 4 legged critters for food and 2 legged ones that inevitably will be trying to steal it.
Yep.
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OK, what if I commandeer a semitrailer full of Coors beer...can I join?
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If you also bring with you a skill...like maybe you can make more beer...then yep!
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OK, what if I commandeer a semitrailer full of Coors beer...can I join?
It's a start . . . :tongue:
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Thanks :-) I thought it was Idaho. Wonder if they've made any headway.
Not sure in the FAQs it says they will begin to showcase property in summer of 2013. There website hasn't changed with any updates or news in over 2 years pretty much.
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OK, what if I commandeer a semitrailer full of Coors beer...can I join?
NO! Coos sucks!...try again. Maybe if you bring Sierra Nevada...then we can talk! :tongue:
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Sierra Nevada tastes like they left soap in the bottles.
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Sierra Nevada tastes like they left soap in the bottles.
A nice clean toothpaste taste !
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A small and trusted community with the first requirement being they can put down 4 legged critters for food and 2 legged ones that inevitably will be trying to steal it.
This along with either a skill to contribute or the willingness to learn a skill to contribute. I think tight knit at first working towards individual homesteads as the rabble quell down. I think you will need the extra people if you want to be successful defending your own family so keeping your circle tight and protecting your resources should be the priority. Once things settle down, you move to the homestead model with the initial threat passed. Much like the first settlements here post socialist spin sent by the early corporations who sent the settlers here of course. I think you have to allow for this flexibility to adjust to the situation as it changes.
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Sierra Nevada tastes like they left soap in the bottles.
:hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
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If you also bring with you a skill...like maybe you can make more beer...then yep!
Well yea! Done that for a living.
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The fort idea reminds me of Manteo N.C. A nice little fort, were everyone disappeared into thin air.
Anyone remember the Alamo?
Forts have such logistic problems, same as today in city's sewage disposal, clean water and finding a way to get around the enemy to acquire supplies, food, clothing and opens itself up to the dead beats that will steal the gold from your teeth.
In the rock cellar of my family home the walls are grimy from when the home was burned down due to an Indian Attack , the Indians went on a rampage, burned a neighboring town of Wells Maine and continued down the coast. They came too fast for most to flee to safe areas, but being hard headed the stubborn Yankees rebuilt in the early 1700's their homes on the cellar site of burned out homes.
Sort of like today in the mid-West and after a tornado in a trailer park the people clean up the damage and haul in another trailer.
Don't like the idea of a society bunched in together, we well know what happens when a rumor goes around and next thing one knows they are burning people at the stake as Witches.
It is said that the safest people in the old west were the traders that were too valuable for anyone to kill or rob. Everyone Friend or Foe needed them so they were left alone. If someone on either side harmed them other traders would not come into the area.
Farmers up here were the wealthy but the job was a back breaking job subject to the weather. Fisherman were poor but at least they kept their belly's full of Lobster, clams, oysters, salt cod and Eels ETC. AND they could move about from place to place in an emergency, Farmers were stuck, no place to go. Too far from a fort for safety and only helpers were family and an occasional slave of all colors and country's to help out.
Taking a page from history, it was the humans that could bug out that survived.
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Don't like the idea of a society bunched in together, we well know what happens when a rumor goes around and next thing one knows they are burning people at the stake as Witches.
vesta, if you show up at my door after the Democratic Apocalypse, I promise to refrain from burning you at the stake.
Fisherman were poor but at least they kept their belly's full of Lobster, clams, oysters, salt cod and Eels ETC.
Unless you try to cook a kettle of eels; then, all bets are off.
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Eels are better grilled and served over rice (don't forget the sauce).
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Eels are better grilled and served over rice (don't forget the sauce).
Story Dad would tell of watching his grandfather skin Eels comes to mind.
We had weirs up here back then, nets tied up in river. Tide comes in to cover the nets, tides go out all kinds of fish and Eels were trapped in the nets. Men and boys would walk across the mud flats to collect what ever was caught and often caught Lamrey Eels , those nasty fish with a sucker mouth full of teeth.
Dads grandfather would bring in a bucket of them things, put on an apron of canvas and procede to butcher them. Sitting on a stool he would grad the Eel by the Neck and hold the squirming beast between his knees and cut off its head, then peel off the skin like a woman removes her pantie hoes. As the peeling went on blood flew everywhere those suckers have a lot of blood.
Mean while Grandma was in the kitchen heating up a large castiron skillet to super hot and she would throw a couple in the pan and cover it as those fish would, even dead thrash about quite smartly.
When the SHTF we are going to have to go back in time of our ancestors and relearn how to survive and the most necessary things they used to do so. Castiron is indispensable, Needles and thread, knives, buttons,
Shears, an ax, and rope.
Anyone know how to milk a cow or goat, pluck a chicken, build a wind break, make a snow cave ?
Comunication methods will be interesting,
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Eels are better grilled and served over rice (don't forget the sauce).
I had a bad experience with eels in Japan.
No, it didn't involve tentacle porn.
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Not too nuts about the kibbutz idea (And is that different from Joooos anyway?) as it's basically the kind of Socialist arrangement along Marxist lines that failed again and again here in the 18th and 19th Centuries. It worked as well as it did in Israel because of the religious and political zeal involved and infusions of cash from Jews and Christians around the world.
I'd rather have a community of freeholders/homesteaders, able to own private property beyond what they can put in a footlocker or sea bag, in touch with each other and contributing their own special skills and gear as partners rather than proles.
That is kinda where I'm at too.
CMD
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I had a bad experience with eels in Japan.
No, it didn't involve tentacle porn.
Glad I missed that form of the art.... :rotf: