Irresponsible Pet Owners

[Habsfan]

by all means, continue to worship the former illegal alien.

Whoa...I just caught that...

I don't worship him. And the word is *former* ...he was a kid. And he has become a hard-working and valuable member of society. Wow...just wow.....

[MP_Sarge]

Worship was unfair, you're right.

I'm glad that he went on to become a productive, contributing member of society after his criminal act, for which he should have been deported.

[Habsfan]

Worship was unfair, you're right.

I'm glad that he went on to become a productive, contributing member of society after his criminal act, for which he should have been deported.

Yeah right.  He was really dangerous 

[MP_Sarge]

Dogs probably think he is, but that's irrelevant.  We have immigration laws in this country.  He chose to violate them.  He should have been deported.

And that still doesn't provide any evidence that spay/neuter improves the health or well-being of a dog.

[Thor]

With the last dog I had, a small Yorkie, abusing her would have been the very last thing to do with her. I kennel trained her, rewarded her for doing good and scolded her for doing bad. If she was bad, she got sent to her kennel. Hell, sometimes, I'd find her in there already because she had peed or pooped on the floor. After my ex and I split up, I found a home for her. I wish I still had her around as she was a good little doggie. And she LOVED to go for rides in the truck!! I had to teach her that she was not allowed in my lap when I was driving, though. She was a little dog with a big dog attitude.

[Habsfan]

Dogs probably think he is, but that's irrelevant.  We have immigration laws in this country.  He chose to violate them.  He should have been deported.

And that still doesn't provide any evidence that spay/neuter improves the health or well-being of a dog.

Better health. A dog that is spayed or neutered has no chance of developing uterine or testicular cancer; in females, the risk of breast cancer and urinary infections is drastically reduced. Reproductive cancers are common among older dogs that have been bred.

Better behavior. Male dogs that are neutered when young are much less likely to roam, mark their territory (and your belongings) with urine, and show aggression toward other male dogs. Intact (unneutered) male dogs will go to great lengths to get to a female dog in heat—they will dig their way out of yards, break fences and leashes, and cross streets in heavy traffic if a female in heat is in the area.

Easier care. An unspayed female bleeds for about 10 straight days twice a year. She bleeds on your carpet, your furniture, the interior of your car, and on the ground outside. As soon as she has marked your yard, you can anticipate a constant parade of male dogs who will pace your lawn, howl, and bark. You have a fenced yard? They will dig their way in.

No accidental pregnancies. If your dog accidentally becomes pregnant, you will have to provide additional medical care—for her and the puppies—and be responsible for finding good homes for half a dozen or more offspring.
 
Myths About Spaying/Neutering

Some people don’t want to spay or neuter their dog because they have heard about some bad “side effects” of the surgery, or because they have picked up some mistaken ideas along the way. There are a number of myths about spaying and neutering. Here are a few of the most common, and the truth about each.

All the following are false:

Altering makes a dog fat

Altering makes a dog lazy

Altering changes a dog’s personality

My dog has a right to experience sex

It’s a good thing for our children to see the miracle of birth

Explanations are under all under the bolded titles.

http://www.almosthomerescue.org/spayneuter/spayneuter.htm

[MP_Sarge]

Those are their unsupported claims, many of which are completely disproved by the studies I posted.
Claims aren't proof, they're claims.

Let's see a study.

Also, YOU claimed that altering a dog changes their personality, making them "less aggressive" and "calmer".

[Habsfan]

Sarge,

Go find someone else to drill tonight.

[MP_Sarge]

Better health:

Hardly.  In fact, neutering dramatically increases the risk of prostate cancer in male dogs, as well as other prostate disorders.  While it is true that testicular cancer risks are eliminated, testicular cancer in dogs is incredibly rare, and easily treated with gonadectomy if it does develop. [The exception to this would be a dog who has a retained testicle at maturity.  Any time a dog hasn't had both testicles drop by 18 months, he should be X-rayed to determine whether the testicle has been retained.  If it has, the dog should be neutered to avoid the risk of a strangulated testicle, or testicular cancer, which is NOT rare in dogs with retained testicles.]

Female dogs are still at risk for reproductive cancers, even after spay, because the neck of the uterus is left behind during the procedure.  A spayed dog can still develop uterine cancer in the uterine stump left behind after spay, as well as pyometra.  In addition, she gains the risk of multiple other forms of cancer, with the removal of estrogen from her body.

Both male and female dogs gain significantly increased risk of structural, immune, neurologic and bladder health impairments, as well outlined in these studies.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/1VerstegenOnclin.pdf
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/1Spain.pdf

Better behavior:
Again, not so much.
Female and male dogs are both often made MORE aggressive by the procedure, and female dogs are also more prone to fearfulness and touch sensitivity afterward.
The only behavior that is markedly reduced by neutering is marking behaviors in male dogs.
This also disproves their assertion that it doesn't change a dog's personality, now doesn't it.  I suppose we can believe everything else they have to say if they're going to contradict themselves, can't we?
This study outlines the negative effects on behavior from altering dogs:
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf

I agree that altered dogs cannot have unwanted litters.
[They also cannot produce the sex hormones necessary for proper development and health]
Dogs that are properly contained and cared for also cannot produce unwanted litters.

Surgically altering a dog to avoid having to be responsible for cleaning up after it or properly containing it is cruel.  You're making the dog suffer for your own laziness.

[MP_Sarge]

Sarge,

Go find someone else to drill tonight.

1) You decided that after hearing that it was my pet peeve to have people who are operating on misinformation attempt to convince me of their incorrect viewpoint about altering dogs, to do just that.

2) What makes you think you're the only person interested in the subject?

3) No one is forcing you to read, or respond.  It's not as though I'm flooding you with PMs.

4) I guess when you can't prove your POV, rather than either find evidence to support it, or admit that perhaps you weren't as informed as you thought you were, you just quit and feign the victim who is being "drilled" by the big meanie who keeps insisting you actually support your argument with proof, rather than claims.

[Boudicca]

Cats are a whole different ballgame.
They don't suffer near the health problems that dogs do resulting from spay/neuter.  Combined with the difficulty of containing cats [they don't crate well, for example], it's safer to err on the side of caution and spay/neuter felines.

That's good to know, since I've got seven rescues running around the house of the feline variety.
I also have two dogs, both altered, because the animal control shelter doesn't allow adoption of intact dogs or cats.  I have to believe my adopting abandoned animals is better than them getting the needle or gassed.

[Thor]

Where I live at is right on the border of the city. People come out here and drop off their unwanted pets. I rescued a young pit bull mix (pretty lovable little feller) and found him a good home after we got him somewhat healthy and several cats. This past summer took a toll on the cats as they mysteriously disappeared. We're thinking that either an owl or a mountain lion got them and possibly a coyote. I've been able to get rid of the coons, but now we have a resident possum.

[Boudicca]

With the last dog I had, a small Yorkie, abusing her would have been the very last thing to do with her. I kennel trained her, rewarded her for doing good and scolded her for doing bad. If she was bad, she got sent to her kennel. Hell, sometimes, I'd find her in there already because she had peed or pooped on the floor. After my ex and I split up, I found a home for her. I wish I still had her around as she was a good little doggie. And she LOVED to go for rides in the truck!! I had to teach her that she was not allowed in my lap when I was driving, though. She was a little dog with a big dog attitude.

My dogs are basically untrained.  I'll admit to gifting them with human feelings, it's late so I forget the term for when people transfer human thoughts and feelings to animals, anthro something...
Anyway, one of my sisters in law is MEAN to her dog.  The dog cringes when she points her finger at him.  Now, maybe the dog is happy, but I'm not at all happy with that sort of treatment and we got into quite a heated exchange. 

Sarge, there is one argument FOR spaying or neutering dogs and cats, and it's this.  Until we can get the numbers of dogs and cats under control, millions upon millions of abandoned, unwanted "surplus" pets are going to be put to death.  I read somewhere that in order to find a home for ALL cats and dogs out there, each American family would have to adopt 12 dogs and 45 cats. 

My dogs live in my house and in the backyard so if they're not perfectly trained automatons it's no one's business but mine and my vet's, who they slobber all over.

[ExGeeEye]

Anthropomorphism.

(Counts both as a reply to the above, and as a possible pet peeve.  However, I do not keep peeves as pets-- altered or otherwise-- as they are in either case indiscriminately bitey.)

[MP_Sarge]

I will absolutely, 110% agree that if you cannot, or will not, prevent unwanted breeding from occurring, your animal should be spayed/neutered at 18 months of age. [Although really, if you can't prevent unwanted breeding, it's possible you just shouldn't own a dog.]

Most *dogs* surrendered to animal shelters end up there because of behavioral issues [many of which, ironically, can be exacerbated, if not caused, by spay/neuter], not because of unwanted breeding.  There have been several, multi-year studies done that disprove the idea that mandatory spay/neuter will reduce dog populations in shelters.  While certainly litters of puppies can, and are, surrendered to shelters, the majority of dogs in shelters are there because they have behavioral problems that could have been prevented through training and proper care.

My own experience working in dog rehabilitation for dogs in foster/rescue situations is consistent with the results of those studies.

What would reduce dog populations in shelters is responsible dog ownership.  Even though I hate nearly every aspect of the American Kennel Club, I do support and am actively involved in their Canine Good Citizen program, for JUST that reason.

Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered.  I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.

Regardless, if you as a pet owner choose to alter your dogs, that is your choice, and your right.  Note that my initial post was not "My pet peeve is people who spay/neuter their dogs."  I don't make a habit of telling people how to live with their dogs, until after they come to me and beg me to help them [which is pretty damned often.]

I choose not to spay/neuter my dogs, and it infuriates me to no end to have people insist that it would be healthier, kinder or in any way "better" for my dog, if I had her spayed.  The evidence just doesn't bear it out, nor does my own experience, and if you're going to confront me and insist that what I'm doing is wrong [even though I afford you the respect to leave you to your own devices and choices], you'd better bring evidence to back it up.

Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.

[LC EFA]

...

Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered.  I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.

...

Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.

I've got the solution to cat overpopulation locked in the gun safe.

Couple years ago we got 60 in a night between 3 of us.

That said  - I like  cats as a general rule. Household cats.

If I spot fluffy out in the bush - it gets shot. They're #2 on the "target list" , behind pigs and before dogs. There's still a bounty on em in some areas.
 

[Alpha Mare]

That's good to know, since I've got seven rescues running around the house of the feline variety.
I also have two dogs, both altered, because the animal control shelter doesn't allow adoption of intact dogs or cats.  I have to believe my adopting abandoned animals is better than them getting the needle or gassed.

It also keeps them from being dumped at my house. Hi 5 for adopting!

[whiffleball]

Sarge, there is one argument FOR spaying or neutering dogs and cats, and it's this.  Until we can get the numbers of dogs and cats under control, millions upon millions of abandoned, unwanted "surplus" pets are going to be put to death.  I read somewhere that in order to find a home for ALL cats and dogs out there, each American family would have to adopt 12 dogs and 45 cats. 

We've adopted 3 shelter dogs.  I figure they're happier being fixed and having a home than being put to death.  I know our life is enriched by having them share our home.

[Boudicca]

It also keeps them from being dumped at my house. Hi 5 for adopting!

Thanks Alpha Mare, and HI5 back atchya!

[Boudicca]

We've adopted 3 shelter dogs.  I figure they're happier being fixed and having a home than being put to death.  I know our life is enriched by having them share our home.

HI5 for adopting!

[Boudicca]

I will absolutely, 110% agree that if you cannot, or will not, prevent unwanted breeding from occurring, your animal should be spayed/neutered at 18 months of age. [Although really, if you can't prevent unwanted breeding, it's possible you just shouldn't own a dog.]

Most *dogs* surrendered to animal shelters end up there because of behavioral issues [many of which, ironically, can be exacerbated, if not caused, by spay/neuter], not because of unwanted breeding.  There have been several, multi-year studies done that disprove the idea that mandatory spay/neuter will reduce dog populations in shelters.  While certainly litters of puppies can, and are, surrendered to shelters, the majority of dogs in shelters are there because they have behavioral problems that could have been prevented through training and proper care.

My own experience working in dog rehabilitation for dogs in foster/rescue situations is consistent with the results of those studies.

What would reduce dog populations in shelters is responsible dog ownership.  Even though I hate nearly every aspect of the American Kennel Club, I do support and am actively involved in their Canine Good Citizen program, for JUST that reason.

Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered.  I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.

Regardless, if you as a pet owner choose to alter your dogs, that is your choice, and your right.  Note that my initial post was not "My pet peeve is people who spay/neuter their dogs."  I don't make a habit of telling people how to live with their dogs, until after they come to me and beg me to help them [which is pretty damned often.]

I choose not to spay/neuter my dogs, and it infuriates me to no end to have people insist that it would be healthier, kinder or in any way "better" for my dog, if I had her spayed.  The evidence just doesn't bear it out, nor does my own experience, and if you're going to confront me and insist that what I'm doing is wrong [even though I afford you the respect to leave you to your own devices and choices], you'd better bring evidence to back it up.

Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.

Sarge, have you heard of Alley Cat Allies.  They provide lots of info about TNR, which you obviously don't need since you've already done it.  But I wondered if you belonged to them, or had heard of that organization.

[MP_Sarge]

The name seems familiar, but probably only because I've read it on rescue forums.

I support, BTW, rescues sterilizing animals (cats, dogs and bunnies) before adoption.
They, like any animal owner, have the legal and moral authority to make that decision regarding their own animals.  Since they remain the legal owners, even after adoption, spay/neuter is the only way they can ensure there are no unwanted litters once the dogs are living in their new home.

[Eupher]

I did a pretty fair amount of research on dogs before we bought Belle, our purebred golden retriever. One of the issues involved spaying her.

We purchased her on a "limited AKC registration" meaning that we could register her with AKC, but none of her puppies would be able to be registered.

We didn't bother with that anyway since we simply wanted a purebred golden as a pet and had no plans to show her or have her compete in anything.

The whole business about spaying/neutering is pretty contentious as virtually ANYTHING involving making a decision about pets is contentious.

With respect to goldens, I read that if the decision to neuter is made, it's best to wait until the dog is about 18 months old. That allows the dog ample time for him to achieve his full height and weight potential. Neutering at 6 months old does the dog a potential disservice because the required hormones for him to get and grow aren't there.

With females, it was less of an issue but it was still advisable to wait until the female was a little older rather than a very young puppy (some get the spaying done as early as 8 weeks (  ). Bone and hip development needs to develop. As goldens are susceptible to hip dysplasia (as are many breeds), another recommendation was to avoid excessive jumping until the dog matured to 18 months or so.

With Belle, we chose to have her spayed at about 6 months. While our yard is fenced and we spent ample time outside with her, I know males well enough to know if she's ready, they're willing to get some of that! And that we couldn't have, of course.

[IassaFTots]

Angus is neutered because he had a retained testicle at 20 months.  I hadn't intended to neuter him, and it didn't change his personality one iota, but our vet recommended it for health concerns. 

If I spot fluffy out in the bush - it gets shot. They're #2 on the "target list" , behind pigs and before dogs. There's still a bounty on em in some areas.

You mustn't have squirrels in Australia. 

[MP_Sarge]

Males with a retained testicle should always be neutered at sexual maturity.  Like your vet said- the health risks are too high.