Author Topic: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views  (Read 5188 times)

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Offline TexasCop

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2011, 01:03:21 PM »
I don't view siding with Lincoln as a liberal point of view.  Before I began my endeavor to learn all I could about the era, I was a huge Lincoln fan.  I'm still a fan of quite a few of his quotes.  I just don't believe most people know the real Lincoln.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "Lincoln freed the slaves!"  It's an historical fact that Lincoln died in Ford's Theater without having freed a single slave.

Offline TexasCop

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2011, 01:04:22 PM »
Obsession? No shit. Bottom line. The South lost.

Now get back to ****ing work.

It's more fun watching your panties get bunched up.   :tongue:

Offline Rebel

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2011, 01:06:02 PM »
Obsession? No shit. Bottom line. The South lost.


Is someone here trying to say otherwise?
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Offline Red October

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2011, 01:08:36 PM »
I don't view siding with Lincoln as a liberal point of view.  Before I began my endeavor to learn all I could about the era, I was a huge Lincoln fan.  I'm still a fan of quite a few of his quotes.  I just don't believe most people know the real Lincoln.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "Lincoln freed the slaves!"  It's an historical fact that Lincoln died in Ford's Theater without having freed a single slave.

Well you can thank publik edukashun for that  :-)
 

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2011, 03:23:44 PM »
This has been a tiresomely recurrent argument on Conservative boards, so I'll say my $.02 and dump it.  Y'all enjoy yourselves when I'm done, but here's my shot of Thorazine for you as a guy with a pretty thorough education in military science:

The whole argument is (a) pointless, and (b) marred by massive amounts of simplistic thinking on both sides.  OK, so Lincoln didn't go to war to free the slaves, which is one of the biggest mistake the Union advocates make, thanks to public skrool.

The Southern partisans have their own counterpart to the 'Lincoln freed the slaves' error in their identification of everything in the North with Lincoln and his personal beliefs.  Freeing the slaves may not be why Lincoln went to war, but is sure is shit was why an awful lot of the Northern electorate supported the war and were willing to go at it once SC flung down the gauntlet.  The age of the divine right of kings was well past, Lincoln was the Chief Executive of a democracy with separation of powers, war was NOT going to occur on his will alone.  He wasn't going to be going to war to preserve the Union or any other reason without a consensus for that in Congress, and after Sumter, that was overwhelmingly present, demanded actually.  Lincoln was a moderate compared to a good chunk of Congress, most of whom were far more eager than he was go at it.  Some to suppress insurrection and preserve the Union, some to seize the opportunity to end slavery, some to answer an attack, and certainly some for less noble reasons such as settling scores.  Their individual motives are lost in the stew of the final collective move by Congress and the President deciding for war.

As far as 'invasion' goes, or in terms less appealing to Southern partisans 150 years later, 'suppressing an armed insurrection' (Which actually WAS contemplated in the Constitution in Article I, Section 8 - a document that nowhere mentions secession, I might add), those events were quite successfully put in train by the aggressively warlike stance of Secessionists in South Carolina.  If you want to ensure there's a war, the damn-sure easiest way to do it is to start the shooting, which they did.  No national government, certainly in the 19th Century, is going to put up with that shit.  Basing your plans on a contrary belief truly is magical thinking. 

It's fairly clear when you read about it that until that point the North was in a Mexican standoff with the South, and most immediately concerned about seizures of Federal property, but not willing to raise the stakes to overt armed action first.  SC saved them a lot of dithering and negotiation.  Nice going, sow the wind and reap the whirlwind, don't start something you can't finish, etc., etc., etc. all apply here.

Civil War buffs love the tactics, but the South failed at a strategic level, neutralizing any initial tactical advantage.  Strategically, the South ultimately had a mobilization rate that was at the limit of what a country can sustain, up to around 20%; the North never did, theirs was more like 2-3%...and even with that, their field forces were at least double the South's, and lavishly outfitted by comparison to boot (Offset theoretically by the South's interior lines, which given their comparatively primitive rail net wasn't much of an advantage in reality).  Talking about man-for-man, sure, the South had an advantage at first, but only an idiot or a desperate man takes the offensive on 1-to-1 odds, so it was never man-for-man.  The entire object of maneuver is to concentrate forces so that at the point you wish to attack, you have locally-superior forces, and as many other advantages as you can orchestrate.  And, that qualitative difference shifted as the war progressed as the South was ground down and the North raised their standards, both for common soldiers and generalship, and those tables had started turning the other way by mid-1863.  About the best major engagement the South ever had in terms of loss ratios was Fredericksburg, a great tactical victory (Yet a defensive one), but the South could have had that level of trade-off in every battle they ever fought and STILL would have lost the war on a strategic level.   

The South's strategic vision (To the extent they had one, they had a serious shortage of stategic thinkers in leadership positions) on which their hopes were pinned proved to be badly misjudged, since it depended on the importance of cotton (primarily) and its other products on the world market, and to the European superpowers of England and France in particular.  At least the Egyptians benefitted from that gross error, though it cost the South pretty dearly.  After the European powers failed to back their play, the South actually had no strategic plan or path to win, and its flawed strategic attempts to take the war to the North ended in failures ranging from disappointing to disastrous in 1862 and 1863.

The only way they were going to come out of it 'successfully' was to make taking the South such a bloodbath that the North would lose its will to prosecute the war, which they ultimately failed to do.  The last gasp of that forlorn hope should have been crushed like a porn star's dreams when Lincoln was re-elected in 1864, but they kept fighting to no further purpose into the next year. 

 
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Offline TexasCop

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2011, 03:25:41 PM »
Dude, summary, please.  I'm sorta lazy.

Offline Doc

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2011, 04:42:09 PM »
The fact that Lincoln viewed the slaves as being a lower grade of human being is well documented but unremarkable really, his views were no different than most in his day. He is given too much credit for emancipation by revisionist historians and as others have pointed out on this thread very few today come close to knowing the real Lincoln.

I recall reading an article some years ago wherein Lincoln was said to have sought to return the freed slaves to Africa following the war. The north had an enormous number of ships in its Navy which it used to blockade the south. since the war was over and these ships were no longer needed they were to be sold as the Navy paired down to a sustainable peacetime fleet. Lincoln purportedly sought to stave that off so that the government could use these ships to provide any freed slaves who were interested with conveyance back to Africa but assassination put an end to this before it could be implemented.

I do not look down on the south for seceding one bit. I don't see it as being very different at all from the colonies seeking independence from Britain four score and seven years before. It was their God given right in 1861 as much as it was the same for the colonies in 1776.
As far as the south not having a chance to win I'm not so sure about that. I believe they could have gained their independence with European backing as had happened with the French backing the colonists in the revolution but it was not forthcoming for Richmond. If the French had not backed the colonists when they did the revolution would have been crushed. Washington lost most of his battles and his army was on the verge of desertion en masse.

They fought on when there was no hope of military success for the sake of honour and remain even today, a century and a half hence, still a unique and separate culture than the north. They may have lost on the battlefield but they never lost their identity.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 05:30:31 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Rebel

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2011, 07:28:31 AM »
As far as 'invasion' goes, or in terms less appealing to Southern partisans 150 years later, 'suppressing an armed insurrection' (Which actually WAS contemplated in the Constitution in Article I, Section 8 - a document that nowhere mentions secession, I might add), those events were quite successfully put in train by the aggressively warlike stance of Secessionists in South Carolina.  If you want to ensure there's a war, the damn-sure easiest way to do it is to start the shooting, which they did.  No national government, certainly in the 19th Century, is going to put up with that shit.  Basing your plans on a contrary belief truly is magical thinking.   

Article 1 of the US Constitution were delineated duties and restrictions placed on the US Legislature, not states. Just sayin'. If you think a state like SC would voluntarily enter a union without EVER having the ability to leave, after their history with the crown, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I think you're dead wrong. No scholars of the time, which were our founders, would have penned this in the DoI,

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

and sign onto a permanent union without any means to leave.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2011, 07:31:37 AM »
...and BTW, the South lost, fine. The South seceded for reasons that included slavery as stated in many of their Constitutions, fine. ...but I will not believe the North invaded the South to free slaves when they too had slaves nor will I believe that no state had the right to secede. It is unfathomable for people such as the founders to create a voluntary union that, upon signing, automatically became involuntary.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline vesta111

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2011, 07:36:42 AM »
Is this another hot button topic?  Would it help if I said the Israelis killed Lincoln?

Nope not one bit, however I do believe it was the Germans that convinced the Japanese to bomb Pear Harbor.

Offline Rebel

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2011, 07:58:11 AM »
Nope not one bit, however I do believe it was the Germans that convinced the Japanese to bomb Pear Harbor.

He was being sarcastic, Vesta.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline vesta111

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2011, 09:08:36 AM »
He was being sarcastic, Vesta.


Many a truth is told in jest.

Offline Rebel

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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2011, 09:09:35 AM »
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Re: New book sheds light on Lincoln's racial views
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2011, 01:04:22 PM »
...and BTW, the South lost, fine. The South seceded for reasons that included slavery as stated in many of their Constitutions, fine. ...but I will not believe the North invaded the South to free slaves when they too had slaves nor will I believe that no state had the right to secede. It is unfathomable for people such as the founders to create a voluntary union that, upon signing, automatically became involuntary.
I almost forgot about the slaves in the north, good point Rebel. It is a fact that every northern state and French Canada had slaves right up to the civil war, some more than others. Most of the northern states had ended the importation of slaves years before the civil war, but did not emancipate the slaves they had and most northern slaves were elderly holdovers from decades past when slavery was more prolific in the north. New Jersey did not emancipate its slaves until 1865.
All covered in depth here-
http://www.slavenorth.com/
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 01:11:11 PM by FreeBorn »


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